Help?
keithcw_the_first
Posts: 382 Member
I tried losing weight; I'd always bottom out at the same number. In April I tried a bulk. It lasted for about ten weeks and I got much stronger - but also definitely started putting on fat. So I switched to a cut.
Now I'm a few weeks into my cut and I feel like... nothing chaged. I've lost maybe 80% of my gains and I really don't look a lot different than when I started.
I've heard some people talk about "permabulk" which I assume is something like an extraordinarily long bulk with a very slight surplus. Is that feasible?
Has anyone had success with something other than a very strict bulk/cult cycle? I like the strength gains, but I also like being smaller around the midsection. I don't believe these two goals are irreconcilable but I also don't know how to make it work.
Should I just peg it at maintenance and cruise along forever, occasionally picking up another rep or another five pounds on the bench?
Now I'm a few weeks into my cut and I feel like... nothing chaged. I've lost maybe 80% of my gains and I really don't look a lot different than when I started.
I've heard some people talk about "permabulk" which I assume is something like an extraordinarily long bulk with a very slight surplus. Is that feasible?
Has anyone had success with something other than a very strict bulk/cult cycle? I like the strength gains, but I also like being smaller around the midsection. I don't believe these two goals are irreconcilable but I also don't know how to make it work.
Should I just peg it at maintenance and cruise along forever, occasionally picking up another rep or another five pounds on the bench?
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Replies
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in all honesty, it sounds like you have been spinning your wheels with no real plan in place. Do you know what your body fat % was before you ran you bulk? When you bottomed out, where you using a food scale to weigh all solids? How strict with your intake were you? Did you log everything?
A ten week bulk is really not long enough to see any real gains. Most recommend running one for three to four months. I ran one last year and it was just about six months long. I am almost down with my cut and I have dropped about four pounds.
Were you following a structured lifting regimen when you bulked?
Based on where your body fat % is now, will determine what you should do ...0 -
When bulking I was doing 5x5 or 3x5 on compound lifts pretty consistently. I eventually got to a few 1RMs.
Up until a few days ago I've been pretty strict with logging, weighing, all that.
How much did you gain (total) during your six month bulk? What kind of surplus did you run during that time?
I'd say I'm at 13% or 14% BF.
I was happy to see the numbers go up during the bulk, but with a strength-focused plan I wasn't seeing a lot of hypertrophy. Some would be nice.0 -
keithcw_the_first wrote: »When bulking I was doing 5x5 or 3x5 on compound lifts pretty consistently. I eventually got to a few 1RMs.
Up until a few days ago I've been pretty strict with logging, weighing, all that.
How much did you gain (total) during your six month bulk? What kind of surplus did you run during that time?
I'd say I'm at 13% or 14% BF.
I was happy to see the numbers go up during the bulk, but with a strength-focused plan I wasn't seeing a lot of hypertrophy. Some would be nice.
were you doing strong lifts 5x5?
How long have you been lifting for?
I ate in a 250 calorie surplus and went from 175 to 186. I have since cut down to about 176 and am transitioning to maintenance starting in August and will run another bulk September to February, going to shoot for 190 pounds by the end of that bulk, and then cut down to 180.
Did you take beginning and ending measurements when you ran your bulk?
You could go for a recomp, where you eat at maintenance, lift heavy, and gain a little muscle, and lose a little fat. However, that tends to be a slow process.
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Like a lot of people, it was a bastardized version of SL. I had hit 3x5 on a few lifts, and the constant squatting was giving me a sore back all week.
So that's 11 lbs. in 6 months? Pretty good, very gradual.
I took pictures weekly, but no measurements. The photos, to me, were inconclusive. I definitely added small amounts of fat all around.
All of my lifts increased and I hit a few PR's but any size gains were on the small side.
At this point I've been lifting on and off for about five or six years.
I keep hearing "strength first, then hypertrophy". I'm tired of that. I will admit to wanting look like I can lift, even if it means I'm not hitting powerlifter numbers.0 -
keithcw_the_first wrote: »Like a lot of people, it was a bastardized version of SL. I had hit 3x5 on a few lifts, and the constant squatting was giving me a sore back all week.
So that's 11 lbs. in 6 months? Pretty good, very gradual.
I took pictures weekly, but no measurements. The photos, to me, were inconclusive. I definitely added small amounts of fat all around.
All of my lifts increased and I hit a few PR's but any size gains were on the small side.
At this point I've been lifting on and off for about five or six years.
I keep hearing "strength first, then hypertrophy". I'm tired of that. I will admit to wanting look like I can lift, even if it means I'm not hitting powerlifter numbers.
so you are not new to lifting, but sounds like you have never really followed a good, structured program, would that be correct?
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I'd say that's mostly correct. I did SL a few years ago, but as my squat form deteriorated I stopped.
Frankly, I'm tired of SL/SS. I like compound lifts; I just want some actual hypertrophy gains. I'll never hit 1000 on my squat; I don't care.
I've heard of ice cream (?) for hypertrophy? The program name, I mean. It probably involves eating ice cream to get quick and easy calories.
Are there any other ones? Do I need to follow another program or can I just shoot for progressive increases in weight or reps in a full body split of my own design?0 -
keithcw_the_first wrote: »I'd say that's mostly correct. I did SL a few years ago, but as my squat form deteriorated I stopped.
Frankly, I'm tired of SL/SS. I like compound lifts; I just want some actual hypertrophy gains. I'll never hit 1000 on my squat; I don't care.
I've heard of ice cream (?) for hypertrophy? The program name, I mean. It probably involves eating ice cream to get quick and easy calories.
Are there any other ones? Do I need to follow another program or can I just shoot for progressive increases in weight or reps in a full body split of my own design?
If you can't follow a set program, why would you try and design your own program?
Sounds like you need to evaluate your diet if you got fat bulking for 10 weeks, and have lost 80% of your gained strength while in a deficit.
Surplus was probably too big, and you deficit is probably too large. That, or your programming sucks.
You need to evaluate your mind too.0 -
I agree with pretty much everything mentioned so far.
In addition, what are your numbers like? If squats are bothering your back, either your form is off, or it's time for an intermediate program, such as Madcow (lots of people like it, I hate it) or 5/3/1 (with appropriate accessory work).0 -
keithcw_the_first wrote: »I'd say that's mostly correct. I did SL a few years ago, but as my squat form deteriorated I stopped.
Frankly, I'm tired of SL/SS. I like compound lifts; I just want some actual hypertrophy gains. I'll never hit 1000 on my squat; I don't care.
I've heard of ice cream (?) for hypertrophy? The program name, I mean. It probably involves eating ice cream to get quick and easy calories.
Are there any other ones? Do I need to follow another program or can I just shoot for progressive increases in weight or reps in a full body split of my own design?
ICF from what I understand is SL with accessory work; it scared me off due to the amount of time required in the gym (he states you need at least 90 minutes per session). People also tend to recommend madcow or Texas after runing SL until stalling.
I had stalled at squats and bench and was getting pretty darn close to a stall at everything else, but in addition I was mentally tired of the program and wanted a switch. I chose Wendler's 5/3/1. Progress is slower since you only add 5lbs per month. But, I've been smashing through my old stall weights even though I've only been running the program for 4.5 months.
Is it good for hypertrophy? Meh? Don't really know. I'm running a deficit because I still have a lot to lose, although I swear my shoulders look larger now. I realize it's likely just the fat coming off (seriously, if the stomach could participate in this process, it'd be awesome, but no, more shoulders), but I'm liking what I'm seeing regardless. And I'm really enjoying the program.
As for bulk or not? Don't know. Seems like you're still having mental problems with bulking. A lot of people with bulking experience here tend to run very long, slow bulks, maintain for a few weeks or months, and then cut with a moderate deficit. And the cut is MUCH shorter than the bulks from what I've seen them say.0 -
keithcw_the_first wrote: »Like a lot of people, it was a bastardized version of SL. I had hit 3x5 on a few lifts, and the constant squatting was giving me a sore back all week.
So that's 11 lbs. in 6 months? Pretty good, very gradual.
I took pictures weekly, but no measurements. The photos, to me, were inconclusive. I definitely added small amounts of fat all around.
All of my lifts increased and I hit a few PR's but any size gains were on the small side.
At this point I've been lifting on and off for about five or six years.
I keep hearing "strength first, then hypertrophy". I'm tired of that. I will admit to wanting look like I can lift, even if it means I'm not hitting powerlifter numbers.
I have not run this program and am not familiar with it, but you might want to look at all pro beginner routine which is on bodybuilding.com...
My suggestion based on your answer is the following.
Find a program that you like and run it for say three months.
Figure out your maintenance calories and eat to maintenance for three months.
at the end of three months you can reevaluate and run a bulk, or just keep recomping. You can also reevaluate your program and see if you want to go to something more intermediate....
wether you are on a strength or hypertrophy program, you should add mass when in a calorie surplus.
oh, what are your macro settings?0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »If you can't follow a set program, why would you try and design your own program?
Sounds like you need to evaluate your diet if you got fat bulking for 10 weeks, and have lost 80% of your gained strength while in a deficit.
Surplus was probably too big, and you deficit is probably too large. That, or your programming sucks.
You need to evaluate your mind too.
"fat" I mean, I put on like 10 pounds. Maybe, 8. So "fatter" would be more appropriate. But yeah, I need to get my mind right.I agree with pretty much everything mentioned so far.
In addition, what are your numbers like? If squats are bothering your back, either your form is off, or it's time for an intermediate program, such as Madcow (lots of people like it, I hate it) or 5/3/1 (with appropriate accessory work).
I have a confirmed 2RM on the bench at 227 (I bought some fractional plates).
Calculated 1RM on OHP is 150; I can rep 135x5 at this point, calculated squat is (was) 275, Deadlift calculated at 365 but I've pulled like 340 IRL.[...]
My suggestion based on your answer is the following.
Find a program that you like and run it for say three months.
Figure out your maintenance calories and eat to maintenance for three months.
at the end of three months you can reevaluate and run a bulk, or just keep recomping. You can also reevaluate your program and see if you want to go to something more intermediate....
wether you are on a strength or hypertrophy program, you should add mass when in a calorie surplus.
oh, what are your macro settings?
I shoot for .6 - .8 g of protein /pound. Fat and carbs kind of just follow suite. Right now I'm getting about 2300 - 2400 calories a day. Fat usually comes in around .6g/lb.0 -
keithcw_the_first wrote: »Like a lot of people, it was a bastardized version of SL. I had hit 3x5 on a few lifts, and the constant squatting was giving me a sore back all week.
So that's 11 lbs. in 6 months? Pretty good, very gradual.
I took pictures weekly, but no measurements. The photos, to me, were inconclusive. I definitely added small amounts of fat all around.
All of my lifts increased and I hit a few PR's but any size gains were on the small side.
At this point I've been lifting on and off for about five or six years.
I keep hearing "strength first, then hypertrophy". I'm tired of that. I will admit to wanting look like I can lift, even if it means I'm not hitting powerlifter numbers.
So why not just try a hypertrophy program and see how you like it? SL is good for beginners because they are lifting relatively light weight and can handle high frequency. If you have been lifting on and off for years, then you probably will do better with an intermediate program, unless you mean you lift for like 2 months and then take the next 10 months off. Losing a lot of strength during your cut and your back always being sore is probably a hint that you need to reduce frequency and/or volume. Either that, or your deficit is too big like LOLBro said.0 -
keithcw_the_first wrote: »Like a lot of people, it was a bastardized version of SL. I had hit 3x5 on a few lifts, and the constant squatting was giving me a sore back all week.
So that's 11 lbs. in 6 months? Pretty good, very gradual.
I took pictures weekly, but no measurements. The photos, to me, were inconclusive. I definitely added small amounts of fat all around.
All of my lifts increased and I hit a few PR's but any size gains were on the small side.
At this point I've been lifting on and off for about five or six years.
I keep hearing "strength first, then hypertrophy". I'm tired of that. I will admit to wanting look like I can lift, even if it means I'm not hitting powerlifter numbers.
So why not just try a hypertrophy program and see how you like it? SL is good for beginners because they are lifting relatively light weight and can handle high frequency. If you have been lifting on and off for years, then you probably will do better with an intermediate program, unless you mean you lift for like 2 months and then take the next 10 months off. Losing a lot of strength during your cut and your back always being sore is probably a hint that you need to reduce frequency and/or volume. Either that, or your deficit is too big like LOLBro said.
I like this. SS was killing me until I dropped it down to 3x5 so I feel like it's a question of volume.
Any other recommendations for good full body 3 day hypertrophy routines?0 -
keithcw_the_first wrote: »keithcw_the_first wrote: »Like a lot of people, it was a bastardized version of SL. I had hit 3x5 on a few lifts, and the constant squatting was giving me a sore back all week.
So that's 11 lbs. in 6 months? Pretty good, very gradual.
I took pictures weekly, but no measurements. The photos, to me, were inconclusive. I definitely added small amounts of fat all around.
All of my lifts increased and I hit a few PR's but any size gains were on the small side.
At this point I've been lifting on and off for about five or six years.
I keep hearing "strength first, then hypertrophy". I'm tired of that. I will admit to wanting look like I can lift, even if it means I'm not hitting powerlifter numbers.
So why not just try a hypertrophy program and see how you like it? SL is good for beginners because they are lifting relatively light weight and can handle high frequency. If you have been lifting on and off for years, then you probably will do better with an intermediate program, unless you mean you lift for like 2 months and then take the next 10 months off. Losing a lot of strength during your cut and your back always being sore is probably a hint that you need to reduce frequency and/or volume. Either that, or your deficit is too big like LOLBro said.
I like this. SS was killing me until I dropped it down to 3x5 so I feel like it's a question of volume.
Any other recommendations for good full body 3 day hypertrophy routines?
You could try HST 3x per week, but you might want to reconsider full body workouts if hypertrophy is your goal. Your workouts will be really long and most popular intermediate programs have a 1x or 2x per week frequency. Also, HST probably isn't going to feel all that different than SS 3x5 if you are having recovery issues. Me personally, when bulking and hypertrophy focused, I like GVT, bro splits, or 1x per week PPL. I am oldish though, so younger people may do better with 2x per week program. But honestly, you can make just about anything work if you find the right balance of intensity and recovery time that works best for you.0 -
OP - I have been running this one for about six months not, it is a four day split, and more of an intermediate program, but it has a good combo of strength and hypertrophy....
https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/4-day-power-muscle-burn-workout-split.html0 -
[...] Me personally, when bulking and hypertrophy focused, I like GVT, bro splits, or 1x per week PPL. I am oldish though, so younger people may do better with 2x per week program. But honestly, you can make just about anything work if you find the right balance of intensity and recovery time that works best for you.
PPL like one day push, one day pull, and one day legs?
I've heard GVT can wreck you if you don't provide proper recovery. Are you picking a different muscle or area to hit with that every week, or is it just all in on 10x10?
And I always though "bro splits" was just a dig at gym bros. It's a thing?
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OP - I have been running this one for about six months not, it is a four day split, and more of an intermediate program, but it has a good combo of strength and hypertrophy....
https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/4-day-power-muscle-burn-workout-split.html
Damn, that looks pretty solid.0 -
keithcw_the_first wrote: »OP - I have been running this one for about six months not, it is a four day split, and more of an intermediate program, but it has a good combo of strength and hypertrophy....
https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/4-day-power-muscle-burn-workout-split.html
Damn, that looks pretty solid.
I have enjoyd running it...but it takes about an 1.5 to complete so your gym time is little high ...I am going to transition to the PHUL workout in September when I go back to my bulk....0 -
Yes. Monday, Wednesday, Friday, done.keithcw_the_first wrote: »PPL like one day push, one day pull, and one day legs?
http://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/workout-routines/bad-*kitten*-workout-week-german-volume-trainingkeithcw_the_first wrote: »I've heard GVT can wreck you if you don't provide proper recovery. Are you picking a different muscle or area to hit with that every week, or is it just all in on 10x10?
It can be tough, depends on how heavy you are lifting. You don't need to push it so hard you crawl out of the gym on leg day like the article states. Start really light like 40-50% 1RM and see how it goes. It is the volume and TUT that makes this routine good, not the weight.
Just a generic 4- to 6-day body part split. And yes, they can work for natties who know what they are doing, especially natties with slower recovery capabilities.keithcw_the_first wrote: »And I always though "bro splits" was just a dig at gym bros. It's a thing?
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whoops, replace the censored stars with another word for donkey in that last link.0
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Thank you my friend!0
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