Muscle Building vs Toning Up?!!!

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  • oddyogi
    oddyogi Posts: 1,816 Member
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    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/womans_lean_sexy_bible.htm

    If you think the women on this site are bulky or manly, you're drunk.

    Btw, this article contains a lot of good information about nutrition for women.

    Do women need to eat differently than men? Not really, just in lesser quantities.
  • Delicate
    Delicate Posts: 625 Member
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    Is muscle building and toning up not just the same thing as you will be wanting to strip fat in the first place to show it off? Well until you get to a really low body fat percent.

    You wont get mass muscle, you will increase your lean muscle since you are a woman, our bodies are a bit sexist like that.

    Unless you plan on bending over a table and getting steroids injected up your butt.
  • Luthorcrow
    Luthorcrow Posts: 193
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    @prashley: First of all, there is no such thing as "toning" or "sculpting" your muscles. You're either building muscles, or you're increasing the stamina and endurance of the muscles you already have. The only way to achieve the "toned" look is to build muscle and lose body fat...

    Bingo! We have a winner. The wording toning and sculpting gets used a lot in some really dubious ways. The fact is you are either building muscle, maintaining muscle or burning fat. Women should not be afraid of lifting weights, even heavy weights. The fact is most women do not have the genetics to get big and even if you do, to gain that much muscle requires a strict diet of high protein that vastly exceeds your normal daily consumption (probably close to double). You just don't get big by lifting alone.

    A great book to check out on weight lifting for women is the New Rules for Lifting for Women by Cassandra Forsythe & Alwyn Cosgrove.
  • Teemo
    Teemo Posts: 338
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    Raise protein intake. Focus less on cardio and more on anabolic workouts. It will happen. It's proved time and time again. Sheeeesh take P90X. They build in a caloric deficit and people gain muscle mass from it.

    I have yet to see anyone on P90X gain lean mass.
    I gained 8lbs doing 1 hr of cardio and 2 hrs of weights and dropped up to 48lbs. Strength was up. I did a hydrostatic test pre and mid way through my journey and muscle mass went up 8lbs and I trust that test more then anything else out there right now.

    You are now aware that you can gain strength without gaining muscle.
    This statement was made more in a general statement. As you work out you create and eat in a certain cycle your body is allowed to create more IGF which allows for muscle growth. Women are NOT nearly as prone to this as men are because of the large amounts of estrogen in the blood stream but their are variances of that in women as well were you can see a more toned or defined woman with muscles that isn't on steroids, for instance look at the young lady that is a monther of twins(screen name I have forgot at the moment) or StephanieLynn76.

    I agree that it is unlikely that a woman will ever end up "bulky" lifting weights and encourage every woman to do so. (Lift weights, that is, not end up bulky.)
  • k1r5ty23
    k1r5ty23 Posts: 23 Member
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    Don't think it's possible for woman to bulk up too much using weights unless steroids are used. Womans bodies just aren't made that way.

    I do alot of weight lifting down gym; have noticed i've toned up much more but not bulked up. Don't do a lot of reps just tend to lift as heavy a weight as I can manage.
  • mapexdrummer69
    mapexdrummer69 Posts: 445
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    Raise protein intake. Focus less on cardio and more on anabolic workouts. It will happen. It's proved time and time again. Sheeeesh take P90X. They build in a caloric deficit and people gain muscle mass from it.

    I gained 8lbs doing 1 hr of cardio and 2 hrs of weights and dropped up to 48lbs. Strength was up. I did a hydrostatic test pre and mid way through my journey and muscle mass went up 8lbs and I trust that test more then anything else out there right now.

    This statement was made more in a general statement. As you work out you create and eat in a certain cycle your body is allowed to create more IGF which allows for muscle growth. Women are NOT nearly as prone to this as men are because of the large amounts of estrogen in the blood stream but their are variances of that in women as well were you can see a more toned or defined woman with muscles that isn't on steroids, for instance look at the young lady that is a monther of twins(screen name I have forgot at the moment) or StephanieLynn76.


    It IS possible for people that are just starting to weight train to gain muscle and burn fat at the same time. This is not the case for someone who trains on a regular basis.

    Gaining LBM and losing BF is simply NOT proved time and time again, and no scientific peer reviewed study will show this. LBM is not increased in a caloric deficit. Increasing protein does not equate to building mass, but can equate to a surplus of calories which could lead to an increase in LBM.


    Transient hormonal fluctuations due to dietary intake, such as IGF-1, insulin, glucagon, are mostly irrelevant in translation to overall long term body composition and weight in the presence of proper daily macronurient and micronutrient consumption and should be diregarded. I don't believe in the insulin fairy.
  • eamconnor
    eamconnor Posts: 130 Member
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    Is this why people often report they have lost weight and then will start weight lifting to "tone up?" I wonder why people are not working to lose weight and firm up muscles simultaneously. In the long run, isn't it necessary to do both?
  • aippolito1
    aippolito1 Posts: 4,894 Member
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    From what I've heard, toning occurs when you have low weight, high rep (ie, curling 5 pounds 100 times) and "bulking up" occurs when you have high weight, low rep (curling 100 pounds 5 times). Can anyone verify that information? It's just something that is commnly said, but I don't know of its accuracy.

    The only way to ADD to your body is by eating high calorie. You get fat by eating too many calories and you build muscle by eating a lot of calories IN PROTEIN. Body builders eat very clean but very high calorie HIGH PROTEIN diets while lifting heavy. Simply lifting heavy will not make you bulk up. I have been lifting heavy for the last couple months and trust me, my muscle have not bulked up and I don't look like a body builder.
  • Teemo
    Teemo Posts: 338
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    Is this why people often report they have lost weight and then will start weight lifting to "tone up?" I wonder why people are not working to lose weight and firm up muscles simultaneously. In the long run, isn't it necessary to do both?

    Yes.

    But it is woefully inefficient and the term "tone up" is misleading. Fat and muscle can do two things and (for the purposes of this argument) two things ONLY: they can increase or they can decrease. You can not tone up muscle any more than you can untone muscle, or firm up fat.

    The term "tone up" is actually referring to one of two events: (1) the loss of body fat, which reveals the muscle underneath and results in a firmer appearance -- fat being... well, "jiggly" and muscle not, or (2) the increase in muscle which presses up against the fat above it and makes you less jiggly.

    Notwithstanding some of the statements above, increasing or decreasing fat/muscle occurs simultaneously -- assuming a proper workout regimen. When you are eating more calories than you use you increase fat and muscle. When you are eating fewer calories than you use you decrease fat and muscle.
  • mapexdrummer69
    mapexdrummer69 Posts: 445
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    Yes.

    But it is woefully inefficient and the term "tone up" is misleading. Fat and muscle can do two things and (for the purposes of this argument) two things ONLY: they can increase or they can decrease. You can not tone up muscle any more than you can untone muscle, or firm up fat.

    The term "tone up" is actually referring to one of two events: (1) the loss of body fat, which reveals the muscle underneath and results in a firmer appearance -- fat being... well, "jiggly" and muscle not, or (2) the increase in muscle which presses up against the fat above it and makes you less jiggly.

    Notwithstanding some of the statements above, increasing or decreasing fat/muscle occurs simultaneously -- assuming a proper workout regimen. When you are eating more calories than you use you increase fat and muscle. When you are eating fewer calories than you use you decrease fat and muscle.


    It appears that this forum needs more posters such as yourself who don't preach nutritional BS.


    To clarify, I was not stating that a caloric surplus leads to LBM gain only. Fat is also gained in the process. To lessen the storage of fat, a small caloric surplus of 200-400 will minimize fat gain.
  • eamconnor
    eamconnor Posts: 130 Member
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    Is this why people often report they have lost weight and then will start weight lifting to "tone up?" I wonder why people are not working to lose weight and firm up muscles simultaneously. In the long run, isn't it necessary to do both?

    Notwithstanding some of the statements above, increasing or decreasing fat/muscle occurs simultaneously -- assuming a proper workout regimen. When you are eating more calories than you use you increase fat and muscle. When you are eating fewer calories than you use you decrease fat and muscle.

    Thanks. Makes sense to me. So the trick for most of us is to lose a disproportionate amount of fat relative to the muscle loss as, we hope, gradually lose weight?

    And on a partially serious note, what about women who might *want* a little more muscle in arms, etc., without scary drugs? You're going to suggest just lots of high-weight reps, right?
  • wendycheng
    wendycheng Posts: 26 Member
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    I wouldn't worry too much about getting too muscular. Many people try intensely to bulk up but still can't. Just keep doing what you're doing.
  • RunHardBeStrong
    RunHardBeStrong Posts: 33,069 Member
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    First of all, there is no such thing as "toning" or "sculpting" your muscles. You're either building muscles, or you're increasing the stamina and endurance of the muscles you already have. The only way to achieve the "toned" look is to build muscle and lose body fat. Low weights with high reps will only increase your muscles' endurance. You need to lift heavy weights for lower reps. If you can do more than 12 reps, you're not choosing weights that are heavy enough. Ideally, you should be doing three sets of 6-8 reps.

    Cardio burns fat, yes, but only while you're doing it. Strength training burns a fraction of the calories that cardio burns DURING THE TIME YOU'RE EXERCISING. The most calories burned from strength training are after the fact; your muscles use energy (burn calories) to repair, renew, and rebuild. Honestly, you don't even need to do cardio. Refer to my blog entry entitled Why Women Should Lift Weights to read more "researched information" behind my statements.

    You should be in and out of the gym in under 45 minutes. Incorporate compound moves to achieve maximum results, i.e. deadlifts, squats, back rows, pushups, dips, pullups, lunges, and all-over core exercises such as planks, jackknives, etc. Don't waste time with isolated bicep curls or tricep extensions--compound exercises will work these muscles and more.

    Totally agree!
  • irridia
    irridia Posts: 527 Member
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    I've started trying to do 5x5 w/increased reistance w/each set. My actual is 3/5 as the top weight is the most I can do right now, especially w/my lunge curls. Would it be foolish to work towards adding 2 more sets of my top weight and when I can control that, then changing the last set to higher weight and when that is attainable swapping out the remainder of my current top weight with the new one and then when thats done increase the weight on the last set?

    example, 5 reps at 8 lbs
    5 10
    5 15
    5 15
    5 15


    then moving to
    5 10
    5 15
    5 20
    5 20

    then

    5 10
    5 15
    5 20
    5 25

    I'm not currently at fatigue levels yet. i'm also experimenting with dropping my carbs to around 100g/day, upping fat and protien and uising HIIT cardio. usually by running up stairs until I can't breath easy and then walking until I can and then doing it again. I'm still trying to lose fat at this point and am trying to get completely off of insulin while getting my fasting glucose levels down. And I DO belive in the insulin fairy as it is commonly known that Diabetics on insulin gain weight. What got me started downhill finally was the addition of a "helper" hormone stimulater Byetta. I'm off it now because it's too expensive, but my new portioning control has prevented weight gain.

    I have stalled out however on weight loss and my fasting glucose ranges between 20 and 40 points higher than it should be, but the pre and post meal levels are dead on which is why I'm trying the carb limiting and the long acting metabolism boot from HIIT and weightlifting. The fat thing is because despite adding vit D suppliments, oovo, coconut oil and flax seed and dropping eggs to only on weekends and oatmeal the rest of the time, my HDL is still too low, + it should help w/satey & carb cravings. Any advise on weightlifting regimen would be greatly appricieated. I'm currently limiting it some because of time and energy levels but I'm feeling an increase to day in energy despite slacking over the holiday weekend and having only added weights last week. . Thanks again for any advice. Might help the OP too.
  • ilikeflowers
    ilikeflowers Posts: 61
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    Perhaps different bodies respond differently, but I definately think that women can bulk up. I know that I can, I was doing 40 lb tricep pulldowns with about 12,10,8 rep and my arms were way to big for me. It took me years to get that muscle to go away. I was also doing leg presses 110 pounds and getting muscle lines in my legs. Im 5'9" 128 lbs for reference. I think what differs here is different people's opinion of being bulky. When I hear someone wanting to be toned, I think they want to have very low fat and be firm and not jiggly, but they dont want to have alot of muscle definition showing. Like being lean toned vs looking like a gymnast or fitness model. So I think the question for the OP is, what do you consider toned and what do you consider muscular? Then we can answer how possible it is for a woman to look each way without drugs etc.

    In my humble opinion, I would consider this toned:

    http://www.thenewfit.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/toned-abs.jpg

    And this muscular:

    http://www.answerfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/amanda-carrier-fitness-model-pose-thumbnail.jpg

    I know everyone has a different opinion and different goals, and theyre all amazing!

    Im curious to see what everyones opinion is of toned vs being muscular, maybe I should start a thread for fun :)
  • chrisdavey
    chrisdavey Posts: 9,834 Member
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    I've started trying to do 5x5 w/increased reistance w/each set. My actual is 3/5 as the top weight is the most I can do right now, especially w/my lunge curls. Would it be foolish to work towards adding 2 more sets of my top weight and when I can control that, then changing the last set to higher weight and when that is attainable swapping out the remainder of my current top weight with the new one and then when thats done increase the weight on the last set?

    example, 5 reps at 8 lbs
    5 10
    5 15
    5 15
    5 15


    then moving to
    5 10
    5 15
    5 20
    5 20

    then

    5 10
    5 15
    5 20
    5 25

    I'm not currently at fatigue levels yet. i'm also experimenting with dropping my carbs to around 100g/day, upping fat and protien and uising HIIT cardio. usually by running up stairs until I can't breath easy and then walking until I can and then doing it again. I'm still trying to lose fat at this point and am trying to get completely off of insulin while getting my fasting glucose levels down. And I DO belive in the insulin fairy as it is commonly known that Diabetics on insulin gain weight. What got me started downhill finally was the addition of a "helper" hormone stimulater Byetta. I'm off it now because it's too expensive, but my new portioning control has prevented weight gain.

    I have stalled out however on weight loss and my fasting glucose ranges between 20 and 40 points higher than it should be, but the pre and post meal levels are dead on which is why I'm trying the carb limiting and the long acting metabolism boot from HIIT and weightlifting. The fat thing is because despite adding vit D suppliments, oovo, coconut oil and flax seed and dropping eggs to only on weekends and oatmeal the rest of the time, my HDL is still too low, + it should help w/satey & carb cravings. Any advise on weightlifting regimen would be greatly appricieated. I'm currently limiting it some because of time and energy levels but I'm feeling an increase to day in energy despite slacking over the holiday weekend and having only added weights last week. . Thanks again for any advice. Might help the OP too.

    If you are new to reistance training check out starting strength or stronglifts 5x5 IMO. Simple, pregressive resistance workouts that have helped many people.
  • Teemo
    Teemo Posts: 338
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    Thanks. Makes sense to me. So the trick for most of us is to lose a disproportionate amount of fat relative to the muscle loss as, we hope, gradually lose weight?

    And on a partially serious note, what about women who might *want* a little more muscle in arms, etc., without scary drugs? You're going to suggest just lots of high-weight reps, right?

    Pretty much. And I would suggest you lift a heavy enough weight to cause your muscle to grow as a consequence. That usually means a heavy enough weight that you can't move it more than 8-12 times in a set. (Or 4-6).
  • kdiamond
    kdiamond Posts: 3,329 Member
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    Perhaps different bodies respond differently, but I definately think that women can bulk up. I know that I can, I was doing 40 lb tricep pulldowns with about 12,10,8 rep and my arms were way to big for me. It took me years to get that muscle to go away. I was also doing leg presses 110 pounds and getting muscle lines in my legs. Im 5'9" 128 lbs for reference. I think what differs here is different people's opinion of being bulky. When I hear someone wanting to be toned, I think they want to have very low fat and be firm and not jiggly, but they dont want to have alot of muscle definition showing. Like being lean toned vs looking like a gymnast or fitness model. So I think the question for the OP is, what do you consider toned and what do you consider muscular? Then we can answer how possible it is for a woman to look each way without drugs etc.

    In my humble opinion, I would consider this toned:

    http://www.thenewfit.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/toned-abs.jpg

    And this muscular:

    http://www.answerfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/amanda-carrier-fitness-model-pose-thumbnail.jpg

    I know everyone has a different opinion and different goals, and theyre all amazing!

    Im curious to see what everyones opinion is of toned vs being muscular, maybe I should start a thread for fun :)

    See I don't believe in "tone"...the girl you posted looks skinny to me. I prefer the muscular body, which I would say is "athletic". That is what I strive for...I like defined arms and legs, I was the girl in the first picture and I didn't like it.

    By the way, I think you more resemble the girl in the second picture...lucky you...you look great!!

    To each his own I guess!
  • ilikeflowers
    ilikeflowers Posts: 61
    Options
    Perhaps different bodies respond differently, but I definately think that women can bulk up. I know that I can, I was doing 40 lb tricep pulldowns with about 12,10,8 rep and my arms were way to big for me. It took me years to get that muscle to go away. I was also doing leg presses 110 pounds and getting muscle lines in my legs. Im 5'9" 128 lbs for reference. I think what differs here is different people's opinion of being bulky. When I hear someone wanting to be toned, I think they want to have very low fat and be firm and not jiggly, but they dont want to have alot of muscle definition showing. Like being lean toned vs looking like a gymnast or fitness model. So I think the question for the OP is, what do you consider toned and what do you consider muscular? Then we can answer how possible it is for a woman to look each way without drugs etc.

    In my humble opinion, I would consider this toned:

    http://www.thenewfit.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/toned-abs.jpg

    And this muscular:

    http://www.answerfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/amanda-carrier-fitness-model-pose-thumbnail.jpg

    I know everyone has a different opinion and different goals, and theyre all amazing!

    Im curious to see what everyones opinion is of toned vs being muscular, maybe I should start a thread for fun :)

    See I don't believe in "tone"...the girl you posted looks skinny to me. I prefer the muscular body, which I would say is "athletic". That is what I strive for...I like defined arms and legs, I was the girl in the first picture and I didn't like it.

    By the way, I think you more resemble the girl in the second picture...lucky you...you look great!!

    To each his own I guess!

    Thank you! I would agree with your "skinny" and "athletic" descriptions. Personally, I really try not to get muscular, thats funny that you think I look more like the second photo, Im going for looking like the first one! Argh. I want to have the exact same muscle amount I have now just lose the fat. What did you do (diet, workout) when you looked more like the first? I think they both look great, its just personal preference for each persons own body.

    To get the "athletic" build, I would say high protein, lean meats, complex carbs like oatmeal in the morning, fruits, veggies, and egg whites. Low salt and plenty of water. Definately have protein within 30 minuets after finishing a workout. And I wouldnt be afraid to use weights. I think the 14, 12, 10 rep with enough weight to muscle fatigue would be great to get that body. Lunges and squats with weights. Use an 8 pound weight ball held between your feet to do abs. Jump rope to burn the fat off the top of muscles. Im not a trainer but I have studied excersize and nutrition for years and have guinea pigged on myself :)
  • vlc1979
    vlc1979 Posts: 227
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