Where do you guys stand on this debate?
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Depending on the vegetable type, you can be many times more likely to get seriously ill from organic.
You have to be far more diligent in cleaning 'organics.'
However, if one care about the environment, Organics are more harmful over all. The crop yield is less than half per acre of conventional farming.
Personally, I grab what they have for frozen veggies at Costco
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MarziPanda95 wrote: »So... the cow will probably get diseases, then? The antibiotics are for a reason. No thanks, I'll stick to non-organic.
No, antibiotics are primarily used to promote growth and improve feed efficiency (weight gain through water retention). Antibiotics are also used as prophylaxis constantly which is the equivalent of you taking an antibiotic for the rest of your life because you might get sick.
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MarziPanda95 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »sheermomentum wrote: »nvsmomketo wrote: »I think organic can be better for you, but there are a lot of other factors that go towards making food less healthy. For example, a cow that is fed orangic grains to fatten/finish it will have a different type of meat with a changed ratio of omega 6 to 3, than a cow who is grass fed it's entire life.
No. Just No. A cow that is fed GRAINS to finish will produce beef with a slightly different nutrient profile than a cow that is fed grass to finish, and a cow that is fed anything with Omega 3's in it will produce beef with more Omega 3's. Organic or otherwise has absolutely nothing to do with it.
But a cow raise organically will not be pumped full of hormones, steroids and antibiotics throughout it's life. Those things remain in the meat we eat.
So... the cow will probably get diseases, then? The antibiotics are for a reason. No thanks, I'll stick to non-organic. Plus, I'm on hormone and steroid medication anyway!
The cow may get a disease. Humans may also get a disease. Not many pump themselves full of antibiotics regularly to prevent it. Because with overuse comes resistance.
Stick with whatever you like. I never suggested you do otherwise.0 -
headwind2015 wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »So... the cow will probably get diseases, then? The antibiotics are for a reason. No thanks, I'll stick to non-organic.
No, antibiotics are primarily used to promote growth and improve feed efficiency (weight gain through water retention). Antibiotics are also used as prophylaxis constantly which is the equivalent of you taking an antibiotic for the rest of your life because you might get sick.
The beef farm I grew up on didn't use antibiotics for growth/feed efficiency. When some of the herd showed signs of sickness, we would generally give all the cows a treatment. Depending on the sickness and medication, sometimes the sick cows would get a higher dose or different medication than the ones not showing symptoms. Medication is expensive, so we opted to use it only when we thought necessary.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »beemerphile1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »i don't really worry about it either way...I buy most of my groceries, including produce at costco...they have a lot of organic stuff that doesn't really cost much more so I usually will opt for that..but I don't go out of my way to buy organic...
I think certain things do taste better...I think organic cage free eggs taste better than not...and I like grass fed beef better...which is kind of pricey, but I don't eat that much beef.
This is the factory farm definition of that "Cage Free" label;
Seriously, it is perfectly legit and meets the definition of cage free.
Not sure what definition you are using, but by the USDA definition, those birds in cages (or eggs from them) could not labeled cage free. Cage free means exactly and only what is says. The chickens cannot be in cages. They may be kept inside for their whole lives, but not in cages. They must be allowed to roam, even if inside a building.
Those aren't cages, I believe what you are seeing are elevated levels one on top of the other. Each level has a railing to prevent the animals falling.0 -
beemerphile1 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »beemerphile1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »i don't really worry about it either way...I buy most of my groceries, including produce at costco...they have a lot of organic stuff that doesn't really cost much more so I usually will opt for that..but I don't go out of my way to buy organic...
I think certain things do taste better...I think organic cage free eggs taste better than not...and I like grass fed beef better...which is kind of pricey, but I don't eat that much beef.
This is the factory farm definition of that "Cage Free" label;
Seriously, it is perfectly legit and meets the definition of cage free.
Not sure what definition you are using, but by the USDA definition, those birds in cages (or eggs from them) could not labeled cage free. Cage free means exactly and only what is says. The chickens cannot be in cages. They may be kept inside for their whole lives, but not in cages. They must be allowed to roam, even if inside a building.
Those aren't cages, I believe what you are seeing are elevated levels one on top of the other. Each level has a railing to prevent the animals falling.
OIC Then yes, as long as they are free to roam around it fits the definition.0 -
I don't care about organic. We shop according to cost due to budget.0
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I don't care about organic. We shop according to cost due to budget.
I totally understand where you're coming from, but as nation we spend less on food than almost any other developed country in the world. On top of that nearly a third of the U.S. food dollar is spent on eating out services and that is according to the USDA.0 -
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asflatasapancake wrote: »Organic is mixed in with all the other food at our super market. Sometimes I get it by accident. I don't actively buy it. Too expensive. People will argue until their head turns purple that it is "better" for you. I'd rather have my head stay a color other than purple and save quite a few dollars in the process.
Wait, what? Why would your head be purple? Do they argue until their head turns purple or yours?0 -
beemerphile1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »i don't really worry about it either way...I buy most of my groceries, including produce at costco...they have a lot of organic stuff that doesn't really cost much more so I usually will opt for that..but I don't go out of my way to buy organic...
I think certain things do taste better...I think organic cage free eggs taste better than not...and I like grass fed beef better...which is kind of pricey, but I don't eat that much beef.
This is the factory farm definition of that "Cage Free" label;
Seriously, it is perfectly legit and meets the definition of cage free.
and?0 -
There are a few fruits and veggies like berries, celery and carrots that I always buy organic.0
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cwolfman13 wrote: »beemerphile1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »i don't really worry about it either way...I buy most of my groceries, including produce at costco...they have a lot of organic stuff that doesn't really cost much more so I usually will opt for that..but I don't go out of my way to buy organic...
I think certain things do taste better...I think organic cage free eggs taste better than not...and I like grass fed beef better...which is kind of pricey, but I don't eat that much beef.
This is the factory farm definition of that "Cage Free" label;
Seriously, it is perfectly legit and meets the definition of cage free.
and?
"Cage free" brings to mind images of chickens pecking around a barnyard, when it's actually chickens piled up on top of eachother without cages, free to peck and scratch eachother's guts out due to stress, unless, of course, someone cuts its beak off. Many people don't understand that cage free and free range aren't the same thing. Personally, I like the idea of a miserable chicken in a cage better than a chicken in a massive justified cockfight setting. I'm not saying either is the way to go, or that I even give a crap where my eggs or chicken come from (I don't, really). Just putting the info out there.0 -
I am with the others here, I will buy whatever looks the freshest and most appealing. In the summer I subscribe to a local CSA. In the winter I eat all the same stuff but I get it from the local independent grocery store. There is a difference in taste in a few items, (tomatoes, berries, etc), but not enough to keep me from buying them. If the organic lettuce looks tasty I will buy it. If the gmo corn on the cob is plump and inviting, I'll get that too!0
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PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »beemerphile1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »i don't really worry about it either way...I buy most of my groceries, including produce at costco...they have a lot of organic stuff that doesn't really cost much more so I usually will opt for that..but I don't go out of my way to buy organic...
I think certain things do taste better...I think organic cage free eggs taste better than not...and I like grass fed beef better...which is kind of pricey, but I don't eat that much beef.
This is the factory farm definition of that "Cage Free" label;
Seriously, it is perfectly legit and meets the definition of cage free.
and?
"Cage free" brings to mind images of chickens pecking around a barnyard...
The carrying capacity of land for free-ranging birds is depressingly small - about 50 birds per *acre*. Packed-in birds will stay a reality, unless the US is willing to turn over the entire state of Oregon to chicken production (and nothing else).
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Omgosh! I had absolutely NO idea this question would turn into such an intriguing discussion. Everyone obviously has their stance on why they support organic eating or not for various reasons. I definitely heard each one loud and clear as they were all valid. I definitely will try one of the "dirty dozen" in its organic version some time in the near future but not quite sure that I am ready to go totally organic!0
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sheermomentum wrote: »nvsmomketo wrote: »I think organic can be better for you, but there are a lot of other factors that go towards making food less healthy. For example, a cow that is fed orangic grains to fatten/finish it will have a different type of meat with a changed ratio of omega 6 to 3, than a cow who is grass fed it's entire life.
No. Just No. A cow that is fed GRAINS to finish will produce beef with a slightly different nutrient profile than a cow that is fed grass to finish, and a cow that is fed anything with Omega 3's in it will produce beef with more Omega 3's. Organic or otherwise has absolutely nothing to do with it.
That was my point. Organic isn't always best. I'd rather have the grass fed and finished beef than the organic grain fed beef.
Although organic, grass fed and finished, antibiotic free beef would probably be my first choice.0 -
The carrying capacity of land for free-ranging birds is depressingly small - about 50 birds per *acre*. Packed-in birds will stay a reality, unless the US is willing to turn over the entire state of Oregon to chicken production (and nothing else).
Except there's winter. I found out here in Canada even our free range chickens are housed in the winter. So I think you'll have to give up South Carolina or maybe Florida.
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With regards to chickens and eggs, it definitely helps if they are allowed to supplement their diet by foraging. We used to have chickens in our back yard in Ukraine and we would feed them grain but they were allowed to roam the yard and eat whatever else they found for at least a couple hours a day (except winter because there wouldn't be much for them to eat anyway and they could get sick from exposure). Those eggs were delicious, as were the chickens (we had to eat them before we moved to the US). Most chicken in the US doesn't taste like anything, which it's why I guess people say evening they try that's new tastes like chicken. Maybe when I can afford it I will try some free-range chicken to see if it actually tastes like chicken instead of just nondescript meat.0
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PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »beemerphile1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »i don't really worry about it either way...I buy most of my groceries, including produce at costco...they have a lot of organic stuff that doesn't really cost much more so I usually will opt for that..but I don't go out of my way to buy organic...
I think certain things do taste better...I think organic cage free eggs taste better than not...and I like grass fed beef better...which is kind of pricey, but I don't eat that much beef.
This is the factory farm definition of that "Cage Free" label;
Seriously, it is perfectly legit and meets the definition of cage free.
and?
"Cage free" brings to mind images of chickens pecking around a barnyard...
The carrying capacity of land for free-ranging birds is depressingly small - about 50 birds per *acre*. Packed-in birds will stay a reality, unless the US is willing to turn over the entire state of Oregon to chicken production (and nothing else).
Where are you getting this information? All the "free range' label means in America is that chickens were allowed access to the outside. There is no requirement of how many birds per acre.
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/food-labeling/meat-and-poultry-labeling-terms/meat-and-poultry-labeling-terms0 -
PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »beemerphile1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »i don't really worry about it either way...I buy most of my groceries, including produce at costco...they have a lot of organic stuff that doesn't really cost much more so I usually will opt for that..but I don't go out of my way to buy organic...
I think certain things do taste better...I think organic cage free eggs taste better than not...and I like grass fed beef better...which is kind of pricey, but I don't eat that much beef.
This is the factory farm definition of that "Cage Free" label;
Seriously, it is perfectly legit and meets the definition of cage free.
and?
"Cage free" brings to mind images of chickens pecking around a barnyard, when it's actually chickens piled up on top of eachother without cages, free to peck and scratch eachother's guts out due to stress, unless, of course, someone cuts its beak off. Many people don't understand that cage free and free range aren't the same thing. Personally, I like the idea of a miserable chicken in a cage better than a chicken in a massive justified cockfight setting. I'm not saying either is the way to go, or that I even give a crap where my eggs or chicken come from (I don't, really). Just putting the info out there.
except you absolutely cannot mass produce the sheer volume of chicken by havin 10-15 birds around a barnyard- that's just a complete fairy tail.
Secondly- let's be real. They are chickens. They have a brain the size smaller than a man's thumb- it's a perk that comes from being an apex predator getting to eat them.0 -
First World Problem
There is no measurable benefit to "organic"...to the point that no one can agree on what organic means.0 -
I buy food based on price and how it looks/freshness. Sometimes I buy the organic produce from Trader Joe's, but when I do that I have plans to eat it within a day or two b/c it tends to go bad faster in my experience.
I have read a number of studies and don't really see much, if any, benefit to buying organic, so I don't seek it out.
I grow some of my own veggies in the summer, and so far I haven't had to use any kind of pesticide on them at all, so I suppose they might be "organic."0 -
First World Problem
There is no measurable benefit to "organic"...to the point that no one can agree on what organic means.
What do you mean? If we are talking organic produce purchased in a store there is a definition for the label in America. I would assume other countries also have regulations for labeling.0 -
PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »beemerphile1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »i don't really worry about it either way...I buy most of my groceries, including produce at costco...they have a lot of organic stuff that doesn't really cost much more so I usually will opt for that..but I don't go out of my way to buy organic...
I think certain things do taste better...I think organic cage free eggs taste better than not...and I like grass fed beef better...which is kind of pricey, but I don't eat that much beef.
This is the factory farm definition of that "Cage Free" label;
Seriously, it is perfectly legit and meets the definition of cage free.
and?
"Cage free" brings to mind images of chickens pecking around a barnyard, when it's actually chickens piled up on top of eachother without cages, free to peck and scratch eachother's guts out due to stress, unless, of course, someone cuts its beak off. Many people don't understand that cage free and free range aren't the same thing. Personally, I like the idea of a miserable chicken in a cage better than a chicken in a massive justified cockfight setting. I'm not saying either is the way to go, or that I even give a crap where my eggs or chicken come from (I don't, really). Just putting the info out there.
except you absolutely cannot mass produce the sheer volume of chicken by havin 10-15 birds around a barnyard- that's just a complete fairy tail.
Secondly- let's be real. They are chickens. They have a brain the size smaller than a man's thumb- it's a perk that comes from being an apex predator getting to eat them.
LOL That's true. And chickens don't really need a lot of room. Even sites dedicated to raising happy chickens at home generally recommend 4 sq feet per chicken in a run (less in a coop).0 -
I don't buy into the organic movement at all. I am extremely budget conscious and buying organic doesn't fit into my budget. Maybe if it were the same price I would, but I think I would pick whichever looked fresher. Many times the organic produce looks sad (maybe I shop at the wrong grocery store).
This year I did join a CSA from an organic farm, but I've been incredibly disappointed. I figured going straight to the farm I'd get a decent amount of fruits and veggies - nope, very little in each box every week. I shake my head every week when I think about how many more fruits and veg. I could have gotten at the grocery store for the same amount of money.
We do grow our own garden, but we do it to save money - not because we think it's better or healthier.0 -
Strawblackcat wrote: »The organic debate is kind of a double edged sword. On the one hand, eating organically is better for the envrioment (and you!) by eliminating the use of the most harmful pesticides and herbicides during the growing process. However, on the other hand, eating organically also often means that your produce is being shipped in from th other side of the country (or even from overseas -- this is especially true in the case of most organic beef sold in the USA.) which is bad for the envrioment due to the fuel that the transportation requires. Optimally, we should eat in-season produce and meat that was grown/raised organically from local farmers.
Obviously, this isn't possible due to logistic/cost/geographic reasons. Because of that, I take a multilayered stance on the issue. If I have the option of buying it from a local farm, I will buy it fhere, even if it isn't organic. Local produce doesn't take as much oil to get from the farm to my mouth, so it has less of an enviromental impact. You're also supporting local agriculture by doing this. Plus, many local farmers grow their products using organic methods, even if they aren't certified USDA organic. Certifacation costs a ton of money and has a lot of legal red tape involved in it, so lots of little guys aren't able to get USDA certifacation, even if they follow organic standards. Just ask them how they grow their products."
I agree; this is an intelligent, conscious way of sorting all of this out. I am lucky enough to have a wonderful year-round large produce market that labels all produce with: where it was grown, "pesticide free", "organic", "awaiting organic certification", etc... This makes the decision making very easy. Sometimes the organic choice is just too expensive or doesn't look very good compared to the conventionally grown. In this case I decide what to buy based on my needs at the time (am I feeding a young child? will I peel the item? is skipping the item all together a better or worse choice than eating the conventionally grown option?).0
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