So what the heck is clean eating, anyway?
Replies
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Sort of along the lines of Michael Pollen's "Eat food. Mostly Plants. Not too much." With the added caveat of make sure you get enough protein at every meal.
Except that this describes how most of us that the "clean eaters" end up arguing with eat.
Specifically, this describes both "clean eaters" and "moderates."0 -
@lemurcat12
1) Do I make assumptions about other people's diets? Generally I try not to because I'm still learning through life but most definitely yes when I see someone shopping in the supermarket surround by toddlers and a trolley full of frozen pizzas, chips and sweeties and nothing green on the table.
It bothers me, but I keep those thoughts to myself as it would be wrong of me to go "Oi Missus feed your kids right!".
2) I too process my food. I preserve things etc. Cheese as you have said is processed.....that's why I try to use the word 'manufactured' (when I remember!) because I think it explains it more clearly. If something feels 'artificial' to me that's processed (whoops - manufactured) - cheese is just ... well cheese.0 -
It happens less now, butt used to happen a lot - people would announce all the foods they ate that others didn't. If you paid attention (and I did), you began to see that a whole lot of those people ate restaurant food, fast food and processed snack food for the majority of their diets. They'd announce that they ate pizza, ribs, chicken wings, cheeseburgers, pasta in cream sauce and barbecue for dinner every week. They had fast food and donuts several times a week, chips and cookies every day, etc. All of it from the same person.lemurcat12 wrote: »Sort of along the lines of Michael Pollen's "Eat food. Mostly Plants. Not too much." With the added caveat of make sure you get enough protein at every meal.
Except that this describes how most of us that the "clean eaters" end up arguing with eat.
Specifically, this describes both "clean eaters" and "moderates."
They didn't announce it all at once, but they would announce it in bits. "I eat cheeseburgers every week!" All you had to do was pay attention to the announcements if you wanted to see what comprised the majority of their diet. And most of it was restaurant food, fast food and processed snacks.
I think that's the reason some people got the idea that many in the moderate crowd were eating diets full of less-healthy stuff. They announced it on a regular basis and we paid attention to the announcements.
Then they'd turn around and say, "Why do you assume my diet isn't comprised of mostly healthy food?" Because you announced, over and over, that it wasn't. That's why.
I'm not saying you did that, just that it may be the reason for the "assumptions." They weren't assumptions. It was just reading the announcements.
I am not offended by the words "clean" or "in moderation." But I agree with most that pushing one way of eating on another person who has chosen the other way is rude. If someone wants to have a donut, don't lecture them about the horrors of donuts. Just let them have their donut. It does you no harm.
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@lemurcat12
1) Do I make assumptions about other people's diets? Generally I try not to because I'm still learning through life but most definitely yes when I see someone shopping in the supermarket surround by toddlers and a trolley full of frozen pizzas, chips and sweeties and nothing green on the table.
It bothers me, but I keep those thoughts to myself as it would be wrong of me to go "Oi Missus feed your kids right!".
Fair enough.
I guess what I was asking is whether you assume that only those who say they "eat clean" care about health. So often people pop up wanting to share recipes with "clean eaters" or looking for a site for "clean recipes" and I always wonder why they think that the fact I might eat some ice cream means that my recipes are "unclean" or why a normal cookbook would be presumed to be inadequate.
That's part of the frustration with the term.
There's a clean eater group here where people talk about recipes and such (I assume) and which I could quite likely contribute to, but I feel unwelcome there since they've decided to self-identify as "clean eaters" vs. the rest of us.
It's funny in that I'd bet they mostly eat as I do in reality.
And yeah, it's my issue. ;-)
I do wish the discussions here focused more on nutrition and how to get balanced meals and the like vs. "clean eating," though.
I like the term "convenience foods," for what I think most people are talking about with the "processed" term, although I actually am hesitant to slam those across the board too. I just don't like them, but I'm an experienced cook, not someone just starting out. I hate the idea that someone who is struggling to start eating better can't resort to an Amy's Light & Lean (apparently recommended by Dr. Ornish) or some pre-packaged beans & rice with some greens and protein added (what I used to eat a lot when first starting to cook for myself years ago) without being a failure.0 -
"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"
This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)
When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)
I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.
You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).
But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?0 -
Clean eating is kind of like being Christian - no common definition, so you are if you say you are, and at least one other person believes you.
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@lemurcat12
God no - the opposite. I presume (rightly or wrongly) the majority on here care a great deal about health. Isn't that one of the whole reasons for of the website?
Have a look in the clean eater group - seriously. Some very relaxed people and very few politics. Have a quiet peek and see what you think
I've been in groups just to read stuff that I don't identify with and it has sometimes been enlightening. 0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sort of along the lines of Michael Pollen's "Eat food. Mostly Plants. Not too much." With the added caveat of make sure you get enough protein at every meal.
Except that this describes how most of us that the "clean eaters" end up arguing with eat.
Specifically, this describes both "clean eaters" and "moderates."
I'll agree with that. Many moderate eater would be considered "clean eaters" by the definition I use (Tosca Reno's Eat Clean Diet).
I would disagree with that for moderate eaters who say the "eat food" portion of Pollen's Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much refers to edible substances that they consume in their diet. I do not believe Pollen considered highly processed foods as being food; I think he called highly processed foods "food-like" substances. (I could be wrong; I read his book many years ago and may have it mixed up.)
Basically, I think if a moderate eater is eating food (not highly processed food-like substances but foods close to their harvested state) then they are a clean eater. If moderate eaters consider angel food cake or twizzlers to be a food, then I would say they are not a clean eaters.
JMO.0 -
I don't know.0
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I don't do it but I figured it was just eating foods that have whole ingredients and occur in nature.
like whole wheat bread but not wonder bread
water not soda
vegetables not doritos0 -
If moderate eaters consider angel food cake or twizzlers to be a food, then I would say they are not a clean eaters.
Well, like I said before, I think the fact I eat greek yogurt and smoked salmon and feta cheese makes me not a clean eater.
I think it's interesting that you group angel food cake and twizzlers, though.
Angel food cake (not my favorite baked good personally, I like fruit-based things like pie or a crisp) is:
Egg whites
Sugar
Flour
Cream of tartar
vanilla
salt
I'd consider something made of that a food, yes. I've read Pollan, don't recall him saying that that isn't food, although clearly "food" in the famous-saying generally means whole foods or foods made from them. But I don't get the sense he is fighting against homemake baked goods. I'm sure he'd say -- as I would think a moderate would -- that one should be sensible and eat those in reasonable quantities and not in lieu of a balanced meal. Of course, in reality (IME, anyway) people who bake tend to do so on top of cooking from whole foods and the baking tends to be extra, dessert, an occasional holiday treat, depending on the person. (This is basically how we ate when I grew up.)
Here's a Pollan piece on the topic that elaborates on what he means: http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/unhappy-meals/
I'm pretty sympathetic to Pollan's views, although I know they fit in pretty much to the subculture I live in and prior prejudices I have, so I try to be skeptical.0 -
@lemurcat12
God no - the opposite. I presume (rightly or wrongly) the majority on here care a great deal about health. Isn't that one of the whole reasons for of the website?
Have a look in the clean eater group - seriously. Some very relaxed people and very few politics. Have a quiet peek and see what you think I've been in groups just to read stuff that I don't identify with and it has sometimes been enlightening.
Thanks. And I appreciate the conversation.0 -
You are either misunderstanding some things I've said or outright lying. Either way, you're just wrong.lemurcat12 wrote: »"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"
This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)
When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)
I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.
You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).
But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?
Also, I specifically stated that I was not talking about you.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »If moderate eaters consider angel food cake or twizzlers to be a food, then I would say they are not a clean eaters.
Well, like I said before, I think the fact I eat greek yogurt and smoked salmon and feta cheese makes me not a clean eater.
I think it's interesting that you group angel food cake and twizzlers, though.
Angel food cake (not my favorite baked good personally, I like fruit-based things like pie or a crisp) is:
Egg whites
Sugar
Flour
Cream of tartar
vanilla
salt
I'd consider something made of that a food, yes. I've read Pollan, don't recall him saying that that isn't food, although clearly "food" in the famous-saying generally means whole foods or foods made from them. But I don't get the sense he is fighting against homemake baked goods. I'm sure he'd say -- as I would think a moderate would -- that one should be sensible and eat those in reasonable quantities and not in lieu of a balanced meal. Of course, in reality (IME, anyway) people who bake tend to do so on top of cooking from whole foods and the baking tends to be extra, dessert, an occasional holiday treat, depending on the person. (This is basically how we ate when I grew up.)
Here's a Pollan piece on the topic that elaborates on what he means: http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/unhappy-meals/
I'm pretty sympathetic to Pollan's views, although I know they fit in pretty much to the subculture I live in and prior prejudices I have, so I try to be skeptical.
maybe if you used honey, or not refined sugar.... then it would count per him? and don't use white flour. I'm not sure if cream of tartar is "clean" but is sometimes substitutable with baking powder which again I don't know if it's "clean"0 -
You are either misunderstanding some things I've said or outright lying. Either way, you're just wrong.lemurcat12 wrote: »"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"
This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)
When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)
I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.
You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).
But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?
Also, I specifically stated that I was not talking about you.
I'm not lying. Nor did I think you were talking about me, although I pointed to some examples of what I may have said as context for when people might bring these things up. I'm also not saying that YOU are someone who has suggested that moderates in reality eat only Twinkies. (I don't think my post suggests that you did.)
Now, I'm sure I may be misunderstanding. Am I wrong in remembering that you have frequently used eating a burger as an example of an unhealthy meal or seemed to disagree (most recently in the "what's the healthiest food thread") when people suggested that pizza can be an example of a healthy food?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »If moderate eaters consider angel food cake or twizzlers to be a food, then I would say they are not a clean eaters.
Well, like I said before, I think the fact I eat greek yogurt and smoked salmon and feta cheese makes me not a clean eater.
I think it's interesting that you group angel food cake and twizzlers, though.
Angel food cake (not my favorite baked good personally, I like fruit-based things like pie or a crisp) is:
Egg whites
Sugar
Flour
Cream of tartar
vanilla
salt
I'd consider something made of that a food, yes. I've read Pollan, don't recall him saying that that isn't food, although clearly "food" in the famous-saying generally means whole foods or foods made from them. But I don't get the sense he is fighting against homemake baked goods. I'm sure he'd say -- as I would think a moderate would -- that one should be sensible and eat those in reasonable quantities and not in lieu of a balanced meal. Of course, in reality (IME, anyway) people who bake tend to do so on top of cooking from whole foods and the baking tends to be extra, dessert, an occasional holiday treat, depending on the person. (This is basically how we ate when I grew up.)
Here's a Pollan piece on the topic that elaborates on what he means: http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/unhappy-meals/
I'm pretty sympathetic to Pollan's views, although I know they fit in pretty much to the subculture I live in and prior prejudices I have, so I try to be skeptical.
maybe if you used honey, or not refined sugar.... then it would count per him? and don't use white flour. I'm not sure if cream of tartar is "clean" but is sometimes substitutable with baking powder which again I don't know if it's "clean"
I don't think Pollan is one of the "never use sugar or white flour" people. It is true I have not read all of his books, but he seems to me to have a different kind of approach.0 -
That thread was asking for THE single most healthy food. Not examples of what foods could be considered healthy.lemurcat12 wrote: »
You are either misunderstanding some things I've said or outright lying. Either way, you're just wrong.lemurcat12 wrote: »"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"
This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)
When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)
I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.
You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).
But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?
Also, I specifically stated that I was not talking about you.
I'm not lying. Nor did I think you were talking about me, although I pointed to some examples of what I may have said as context for when people might bring these things up. I'm also not saying that YOU are someone who has suggested that moderates in reality eat only Twinkies. (I don't think my post suggests that you did.)
Now, I'm sure I may be misunderstanding. Am I wrong in remembering that you have frequently used eating a burger as an example of an unhealthy meal or seemed to disagree (most recently in the "what's the healthiest food thread") when people suggested that pizza can be an example of a healthy food?
I was curious if a specific posted actually believed that pizza was the single most healthy combination of food they could think of.
I don't care if most people think that pizza is the most food a person could possibly eat, I was just kind of shocked that THAT person would think pizza was THE healthiest food of all possible food combinations. I still think it may have been some kind of joke.
Furthermore, I was not about to argue that he shouldn't think it. I just wanted to know if he was serious or making some kind of joke.
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Per the thread title and the discussion it's fairly clear that if someone says to me "I eat clean" I'll have to ask them what they mean by that and, after explaining what they meant, nod my head and say "good for you for making healthy choices" and leave it at that.0
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That thread was asking for THE single most healthy food. Not examples of what foods could be considered healthy.lemurcat12 wrote: »
You are either misunderstanding some things I've said or outright lying. Either way, you're just wrong.lemurcat12 wrote: »"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"
This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)
When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)
I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.
You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).
But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?
Also, I specifically stated that I was not talking about you.
I'm not lying. Nor did I think you were talking about me, although I pointed to some examples of what I may have said as context for when people might bring these things up. I'm also not saying that YOU are someone who has suggested that moderates in reality eat only Twinkies. (I don't think my post suggests that you did.)
Now, I'm sure I may be misunderstanding. Am I wrong in remembering that you have frequently used eating a burger as an example of an unhealthy meal or seemed to disagree (most recently in the "what's the healthiest food thread") when people suggested that pizza can be an example of a healthy food?
I was curious if a specific posted actually believed that pizza was the single most healthy combination of food they could think of.
I don't care if most people think that pizza is the most food a person could possibly eat, I was just kind of shocked that THAT person would think pizza was THE healthiest food of all possible food combinations. I still think it may have been some kind of joke.
Furthermore, I was not about to argue that he shouldn't think it. I just wanted to know if he was serious or making some kind of joke.
I thought he was quite obviously joking or simply saying what he thought the tastiest was, since the question was pretty silly. However, I was specifically referring to this comment: "I have seen people actually argue that pizza is one of the healthiest things you can eat and he may agree with with that. I don't know. I hope not...but I never know." It seems to me--correct me if I am wrong--that you were referring to prior discussions, in which people have said that for a single food pizza can be pretty healthy, as if you make it right it contains a good balance.
Indeed, I said something similar in that very thread (after saying I thought the premise was wrong):I don't think any one food is going to be ideal, or particularly better than some other food. That's why all of the "would you be healthy only eating ___" arguments are ridiculous. Who thinks it's a good idea to only eat one thing.
Well, I guess that's what the Soylent efforts are about, but I'm not interested.
That said, if I had to pick something, I'd go with a pasta dish with whole wheat pasta, lots of vegetables, and lean meat, cooked with olive oil. Pretty balanced macros, allows for a range of vegetables and some additional fiber.
(You could achieve basically the same thing in a pizza too.)0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »If moderate eaters consider angel food cake or twizzlers to be a food, then I would say they are not a clean eaters.
Well, like I said before, I think the fact I eat greek yogurt and smoked salmon and feta cheese makes me not a clean eater.
I think it's interesting that you group angel food cake and twizzlers, though.
Angel food cake (not my favorite baked good personally, I like fruit-based things like pie or a crisp) is:
Egg whites
Sugar
Flour
Cream of tartar
vanilla
salt
I'd consider something made of that a food, yes. I've read Pollan, don't recall him saying that that isn't food, although clearly "food" in the famous-saying generally means whole foods or foods made from them. But I don't get the sense he is fighting against homemake baked goods. I'm sure he'd say -- as I would think a moderate would -- that one should be sensible and eat those in reasonable quantities and not in lieu of a balanced meal. Of course, in reality (IME, anyway) people who bake tend to do so on top of cooking from whole foods and the baking tends to be extra, dessert, an occasional holiday treat, depending on the person. (This is basically how we ate when I grew up.)
Here's a Pollan piece on the topic that elaborates on what he means: http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/unhappy-meals/
I'm pretty sympathetic to Pollan's views, although I know they fit in pretty much to the subculture I live in and prior prejudices I have, so I try to be skeptical.
Perhaps I shouldn't have brought Pollen up. I think his ideas sort of go along with my perceived notion of what clean eating is. Tosca Reno would not have been a supporter of angel food cake for it's sugar and flour (or starches) content because both are very processed and easily convert to sugar. I imagine she would have preferred honey as a sweetener and possibly come up with a way to insert fibre into it. At the very least it would be advised to limit it to rare occasions.
When I was eating clean (what I considered to be), I would have skipped the angel food cake too. Pollan... I don't know what he would have done. I'm guessing it wouldn't be a common dessert but I don't know.
I think both of the would have passed on the Twizzlers though.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"
This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)
When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)
I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.
You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).
But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?
I think that while the posters you refer to know that, believe that, and practice that, they don't always state it explicitly because they believe it goes without saying (which would be true in an ideal world) For a lot of us, that is true, but if you look at the SAD, or at some of the the bizarre diets that millions of people have followed throughout the last century , you really can't assume that everyone understands basic nutrition. On the rare occasion that I respond, I'm not saying that one choice will make or break, but that nutrition does matter because you can't have an overall nutrient dense diet without choosing nutrient dense foods fairly regularly. I realize the person I am responding to knows that, but want to make it clear to the OP, who is often a confused newbie.
I do find it ironic that so many of the "moderators" and "clean eaters" eat almost identically, and yet fight like cats and dogs any time the topic comes up.
Edited because I can't seem to grasp the quote function today.0 -
MakePeasNotWar wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"
This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)
When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)
I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.
You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).
But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?
I think that while the posters you refer to know that, believe that, and practice that, they don't always state it explicitly because they believe it goes without saying (which would be true in an ideal world) For a lot of us, that is true, but if you look at the SAD, or at some of the the bizarre diets that millions of people have followed throughout the last century , you really can't assume that everyone understands basic nutrition. On the rare occasion that I respond, I'm not saying that one choice will make or break, but that nutrition does matter because you can't have an overall nutrient dense diet without choosing nutrient dense foods fairly regularly. I realize the person I am responding to knows that, but want to make it clear to the OP, who is often a confused newbie.
I do find it ironic that so many of the "moderators" and "clean eaters" eat almost identically, and yet fight like cats and dogs any time the topic comes up.
Edited because I can't seem to grasp the quote function today.
Sometimes it just doesn't cooperate! ;-)
I find the same thing funny/ironic. And I do agree that--much as it seems to me so obvious that it need not be said--that adding "for health a balanced diet focused on nutrient-dense foods with enough protein and vegetables" is probably warranted, and I do normally say it and notice others saying it. I've been accused of recommending only Twinkies (which I never eat) in those very threads, though, so sometimes you cannot win!0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »MakePeasNotWar wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"
This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)
When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)
I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.
You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).
But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?
I think that while the posters you refer to know that, believe that, and practice that, they don't always state it explicitly because they believe it goes without saying (which would be true in an ideal world) For a lot of us, that is true, but if you look at the SAD, or at some of the the bizarre diets that millions of people have followed throughout the last century , you really can't assume that everyone understands basic nutrition. On the rare occasion that I respond, I'm not saying that one choice will make or break, but that nutrition does matter because you can't have an overall nutrient dense diet without choosing nutrient dense foods fairly regularly. I realize the person I am responding to knows that, but want to make it clear to the OP, who is often a confused newbie.
I do find it ironic that so many of the "moderators" and "clean eaters" eat almost identically, and yet fight like cats and dogs any time the topic comes up.
Edited because I can't seem to grasp the quote function today.
Sometimes it just doesn't cooperate! ;-)
I find the same thing funny/ironic. And I do agree that--much as it seems to me so obvious that it need not be said--that adding "for health a balanced diet focused on nutrient-dense foods with enough protein and vegetables" is probably warranted, and I do normally say it and notice others saying it. I've been accused of recommending only Twinkies (which I never eat) in those very threads, though, so sometimes you cannot win!
There's always going to be one, I guess, lol. I sometimes feel like maybe things would be more civil here if we kept to safer topics.
You know, like politics, region, or how to discipline your children.
0 -
The term is new to me - I don't think it's much used in the UK. Seems everyone understands it as eating wholesome, non-processed foods as much as possible and leaving out foods that are toxic, so eating organic veg and cutting out too much sugar. To the 'clean food' definition I'd also like to add fair-trade food as it causes least suffering
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Mindfullyjo wrote: »The term is new to me - I don't think it's much used in the UK. Seems everyone understands it as eating wholesome, non-processed foods as much as possible and leaving out foods that are toxic, so eating organic veg and cutting out too much sugar. To the 'clean food' definition I'd also like to add fair-trade food as it causes least suffering
Non organic vegetables and sugar are toxic? Anything else on the toxic list I should be avoiding?
0 -
Michael190lbs wrote: »To me its rinsing my fruits and veggies three times.
Was about to say the same thing Hahaha.0 -
Well said.Everyone will give you their own definition. There's no consensus as to what "clean eating" is. Personally, I don't bother with it and focus on moderation, getting my nutrients in and enjoying treats when I can.
I try to avoid anything canned, boxed or packaged or processed in any way.
Optimal food intake is whole, real foods...lean meats, fresh fruits and veggies, nuts, whole eggs, 100% whole grained, home bakes breads and such, beans and raw, whole unpasteurized dairy.
That's my definition, and to get there 70% of the time - close enough!
0 -
That thread was asking for THE single most healthy food. Not examples of what foods could be considered healthy.lemurcat12 wrote: »
You are either misunderstanding some things I've said or outright lying. Either way, you're just wrong.lemurcat12 wrote: »"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"
This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)
When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)
I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.
You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).
But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?
Also, I specifically stated that I was not talking about you.
I'm not lying. Nor did I think you were talking about me, although I pointed to some examples of what I may have said as context for when people might bring these things up. I'm also not saying that YOU are someone who has suggested that moderates in reality eat only Twinkies. (I don't think my post suggests that you did.)
Now, I'm sure I may be misunderstanding. Am I wrong in remembering that you have frequently used eating a burger as an example of an unhealthy meal or seemed to disagree (most recently in the "what's the healthiest food thread") when people suggested that pizza can be an example of a healthy food?
I was curious if a specific posted actually believed that pizza was the single most healthy combination of food they could think of.
I don't care if most people think that pizza is the most food a person could possibly eat, I was just kind of shocked that THAT person would think pizza was THE healthiest food of all possible food combinations. I still think it may have been some kind of joke.
Furthermore, I was not about to argue that he shouldn't think it. I just wanted to know if he was serious or making some kind of joke.
I was the one who said "Pizza has all the macros" in that thread. Yes, I was being a bit jokey and lighthearted. I adore pizza, and it has a decent balance of macros if you order/make it right. I have spent YEARS perfecting a homemade pizza dough. I pile it with vegetables and a little fresh mozzarella--and a couple of slices for about 600 calories? That's a perfect food to me, and I would choose it as my desert island food if I could take a pizza oven with me. Since it was a fun thread, I shared. No need to be "shocked," @Kalikel.
0 -
That's not what she or I were referring to, I promise. It wasn't you.rockmama72 wrote: »
That thread was asking for THE single most healthy food. Not examples of what foods could be considered healthy.lemurcat12 wrote: »
You are either misunderstanding some things I've said or outright lying. Either way, you're just wrong.lemurcat12 wrote: »"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"
This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)
When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)
I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.
You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).
But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?
Also, I specifically stated that I was not talking about you.
I'm not lying. Nor did I think you were talking about me, although I pointed to some examples of what I may have said as context for when people might bring these things up. I'm also not saying that YOU are someone who has suggested that moderates in reality eat only Twinkies. (I don't think my post suggests that you did.)
Now, I'm sure I may be misunderstanding. Am I wrong in remembering that you have frequently used eating a burger as an example of an unhealthy meal or seemed to disagree (most recently in the "what's the healthiest food thread") when people suggested that pizza can be an example of a healthy food?
I was curious if a specific posted actually believed that pizza was the single most healthy combination of food they could think of.
I don't care if most people think that pizza is the most food a person could possibly eat, I was just kind of shocked that THAT person would think pizza was THE healthiest food of all possible food combinations. I still think it may have been some kind of joke.
Furthermore, I was not about to argue that he shouldn't think it. I just wanted to know if he was serious or making some kind of joke.
I was the one who said "Pizza has all the macros" in that thread. Yes, I was being a bit jokey and lighthearted. I adore pizza, and it has a decent balance of macros if you order/make it right. I have spent YEARS perfecting a homemade pizza dough. I pile it with vegetables and a little fresh mozzarella--and a couple of slices for about 600 calories? That's a perfect food to me, and I would choose it as my desert island food if I could take a pizza oven with me. Since it was a fun thread, I shared. No need to be "shocked," @Kalikel.
0 -
rockmama72 wrote: »
That thread was asking for THE single most healthy food. Not examples of what foods could be considered healthy.lemurcat12 wrote: »
You are either misunderstanding some things I've said or outright lying. Either way, you're just wrong.lemurcat12 wrote: »"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"
This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)
When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)
I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.
You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).
But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?
Also, I specifically stated that I was not talking about you.
I'm not lying. Nor did I think you were talking about me, although I pointed to some examples of what I may have said as context for when people might bring these things up. I'm also not saying that YOU are someone who has suggested that moderates in reality eat only Twinkies. (I don't think my post suggests that you did.)
Now, I'm sure I may be misunderstanding. Am I wrong in remembering that you have frequently used eating a burger as an example of an unhealthy meal or seemed to disagree (most recently in the "what's the healthiest food thread") when people suggested that pizza can be an example of a healthy food?
I was curious if a specific posted actually believed that pizza was the single most healthy combination of food they could think of.
I don't care if most people think that pizza is the most food a person could possibly eat, I was just kind of shocked that THAT person would think pizza was THE healthiest food of all possible food combinations. I still think it may have been some kind of joke.
Furthermore, I was not about to argue that he shouldn't think it. I just wanted to know if he was serious or making some kind of joke.
I was the one who said "Pizza has all the macros" in that thread. Yes, I was being a bit jokey and lighthearted. I adore pizza, and it has a decent balance of macros if you order/make it right. I have spent YEARS perfecting a homemade pizza dough. I pile it with vegetables and a little fresh mozzarella--and a couple of slices for about 600 calories? That's a perfect food to me, and I would choose it as my desert island food if I could take a pizza oven with me. Since it was a fun thread, I shared. No need to be "shocked," @Kalikel.
Can you share your pizza dough recipe?0
This discussion has been closed.
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