Gaining muscle limited fat gains
Hannah220190
Posts: 83 Member
after successfully gaining weight to my restored weight following a short spell of anorexia Ive managed to gain approximately 5-6 pounds of muscle since January by eating in a calorie surplus. I'm now following an intense strength & hypertrophy training programme to gain muscle and I've been incorporating short bursts of HIIT to rev up my metabolism & limit the amount of fat I maybe gaining.
Is anyone in a similar situation to me? If so what are you doing to limiting fat gains? I'm eating a 'clean' calorie surplus diet, ensuring I'm getting enough carbs (specifically around my workouts), proteins & fats
Is anyone in a similar situation to me? If so what are you doing to limiting fat gains? I'm eating a 'clean' calorie surplus diet, ensuring I'm getting enough carbs (specifically around my workouts), proteins & fats
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Unfortunately, there really isn't much you can do to limit fat gains. Some would suggest a clean bulk (250 over TDEE) but ultimately, of your gains 50-75% will be fat. Doing HIIT and other things will not improve that. And the types of foods you eat (clean/processed/whole or whatever its defined as), have no impact on the fat/muscle ratio.0
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Unfortunately, there really isn't much you can do to limit fat gains. Some would suggest a clean bulk (250 over TDEE) but ultimately, of your gains 50-75% will be fat. Doing HIIT and other things will not improve that. And the types of foods you eat (clean/processed/whole or whatever its defined as), have no impact on the fat/muscle ratio.
This
Eat in a surplus, lift heavy and don't worry about eating clean ..,,0 -
I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!0
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worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
Eating nutritious food makes such a difference! I'd much rather eat a meal of 500 nutritious calories compared to 2 mars bars! Oh I do have treats, it's all about moderation & balance!0 -
Hannah220190 wrote: »worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
Eating nutritious food makes such a difference! I'd much rather eat a meal of 500 nutritious calories compared to 2 mars bars! Oh I do have treats, it's all about moderation & balance!
That sounds like a good attitude.
Get your required micronutrients in, and enjoy some nice snack foods on the side.
I also want to leave this quote here from another gaining thread where we had a discussion of only eating "clean foods".And to quote alan aragon, you don't get extra points for eating more nutrients than your body needs.
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When cutting perhaps, but in a bulk calories from all sources are fair game.Hannah220190 wrote: »worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
Eating nutritious food makes such a difference! I'd much rather eat a meal of 500 nutritious calories compared to 2 mars bars! Oh I do have treats, it's all about moderation & balance!0 -
worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
I am not sure you are understanding the context of what we are saying regarding the bold statement. While it's true that calories, in and by itself, will determine weight loss, maintenance and gain, macros and micros will determine health. We all advocate for getting calories from a variety of sources to maximize nutrient intake. Commonly, we suggest 80-90% of your calories from whole grains, fruits, veggies, proteins, dairy, etc... No one is suggesting you eat a diet in mars bars or any other nutrient lacking food.
But, and this needs to be emphasized a lot, when a person is bulking, they need to consistently hit their calorie goals to maximize muscle growth and minimize fat growth. This is unlike cutting, when you can make up for a bad days or two or even a bad week. If you try to make up for bad weeks while bulking, you can end up with a worse fat/muscle ratio. Add considering some people bulk at very high calorie values, you need to use whatever means possible to get calories up. And some people struggle to hit those numbers (fairly a frequent thing in the gaining weight section). And lets face it, its significantly easier to get all your nutrients during a bulk, than a cut.
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worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
I am not sure you are understanding the context of what we are saying regarding the bold statement. While it's true that calories, in and by itself, will determine weight loss, maintenance and gain, macros and micros will determine health. We all advocate for getting calories from a variety of sources to maximize nutrient intake. Commonly, we suggest 80-90% of your calories from whole grains, fruits, veggies, proteins, dairy, etc... No one is suggesting you eat a diet in mars bars or any other nutrient lacking food.
But, and this needs to be emphasized a lot, when a person is bulking, they need to consistently hit their calorie goals to maximize muscle growth and minimize fat growth. This is unlike cutting, when you can make up for a bad days or two or even a bad week. If you try to make up for bad weeks while bulking, you can end up with a worse fat/muscle ratio. Add considering some people bulk at very high calorie values, you need to use whatever means possible to get calories up. And some people struggle to hit those numbers (fairly a frequent thing in the gaining weight section). And lets face it, its significantly easier to get all your nutrients during a bulk, than a cut.
I definitely agree with what you're saying regarding bulking and needing to get calories in. High fat/calorie foods are definitely essential! The 80-90% approach works well. I simply disagree with those on bulking forums who advocate ALL THE PIZZA etc so long as it's high cal (I've seen plenty!) Personally, I would rather that I got the majority of those nutrients and calories in through avocado, nuts and nut butters, coconut oil, dates, dark chocolate etc purely because they have more beneficial properties for the same amount of calories as more processed foods. I'm coming it this from a wellbeing angle - these are the foods that make me feel good in my body, and for a recovering anorexic like OP I would say that is very important to avoid relapse! So I feel like the quality of the calories do count - however this is just the MAJORITY of calories, it's absolutely essential that OP doesn't restrict herself to 100% clean eating, purely for mental health reasons!0 -
worldofalice wrote: »worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
I am not sure you are understanding the context of what we are saying regarding the bold statement. While it's true that calories, in and by itself, will determine weight loss, maintenance and gain, macros and micros will determine health. We all advocate for getting calories from a variety of sources to maximize nutrient intake. Commonly, we suggest 80-90% of your calories from whole grains, fruits, veggies, proteins, dairy, etc... No one is suggesting you eat a diet in mars bars or any other nutrient lacking food.
But, and this needs to be emphasized a lot, when a person is bulking, they need to consistently hit their calorie goals to maximize muscle growth and minimize fat growth. This is unlike cutting, when you can make up for a bad days or two or even a bad week. If you try to make up for bad weeks while bulking, you can end up with a worse fat/muscle ratio. Add considering some people bulk at very high calorie values, you need to use whatever means possible to get calories up. And some people struggle to hit those numbers (fairly a frequent thing in the gaining weight section). And lets face it, its significantly easier to get all your nutrients during a bulk, than a cut.
I definitely agree with what you're saying regarding bulking and needing to get calories in. High fat/calorie foods are definitely essential! The 80-90% approach works well. I simply disagree with those on bulking forums who advocate ALL THE PIZZA etc so long as it's high cal (I've seen plenty!) Personally, I would rather that I got the majority of those nutrients and calories in through avocado, nuts and nut butters, coconut oil, dates, dark chocolate etc purely because they have more beneficial properties for the same amount of calories as more processed foods. I'm coming it this from a wellbeing angle - these are the foods that make me feel good in my body, and for a recovering anorexic like OP I would say that is very important to avoid relapse! So I feel like the quality of the calories do count - however this is just the MAJORITY of calories, it's absolutely essential that OP doesn't restrict herself to 100% clean eating, purely for mental health reasons!
The thing is, I only see the bold in threads where members struggle to get calories, especially when those members bulk at 4000+ calories.
Generally what I see what people struggle to get calories, which is not the OP's situation and I apologize for a tangent, people recommend high calorie foods.. because lets face it that you can't bulk without calories. The the OP is bulking at 2400 or less, than it's very easy to get plenty of nutrient dense foods and not have to eat things like pizza (unless she wanted to, which pizza is rich in nutrients) or ice cream. But if the OP would be bulking at 3000 + (a lot for many women), then it's almost impossible to get that from nutrient dense foods only. And that is why I continually quote Alan Aragon.
And believe it or not, we really do believe in the same thing for health, but I think the calorie levels is where the difference is.0 -
Yup.worldofalice wrote: »worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
I am not sure you are understanding the context of what we are saying regarding the bold statement. While it's true that calories, in and by itself, will determine weight loss, maintenance and gain, macros and micros will determine health. We all advocate for getting calories from a variety of sources to maximize nutrient intake. Commonly, we suggest 80-90% of your calories from whole grains, fruits, veggies, proteins, dairy, etc... No one is suggesting you eat a diet in mars bars or any other nutrient lacking food.
But, and this needs to be emphasized a lot, when a person is bulking, they need to consistently hit their calorie goals to maximize muscle growth and minimize fat growth. This is unlike cutting, when you can make up for a bad days or two or even a bad week. If you try to make up for bad weeks while bulking, you can end up with a worse fat/muscle ratio. Add considering some people bulk at very high calorie values, you need to use whatever means possible to get calories up. And some people struggle to hit those numbers (fairly a frequent thing in the gaining weight section). And lets face it, its significantly easier to get all your nutrients during a bulk, than a cut.
I definitely agree with what you're saying regarding bulking and needing to get calories in. High fat/calorie foods are definitely essential! The 80-90% approach works well. I simply disagree with those on bulking forums who advocate ALL THE PIZZA etc so long as it's high cal (I've seen plenty!) Personally, I would rather that I got the majority of those nutrients and calories in through avocado, nuts and nut butters, coconut oil, dates, dark chocolate etc purely because they have more beneficial properties for the same amount of calories as more processed foods. I'm coming it this from a wellbeing angle - these are the foods that make me feel good in my body, and for a recovering anorexic like OP I would say that is very important to avoid relapse! So I feel like the quality of the calories do count - however this is just the MAJORITY of calories, it's absolutely essential that OP doesn't restrict herself to 100% clean eating, purely for mental health reasons!
The thing is, I only see the bold in threads where members struggle to get calories, especially when those members bulk at 4000+ calories.
Generally what I see what people struggle to get calories, which is not the OP's situation and I apologize for a tangent, people recommend high calorie foods.. because lets face it that you can't bulk without calories. The the OP is bulking at 2400 or less, than it's very easy to get plenty of nutrient dense foods and not have to eat things like pizza (unless she wanted to, which pizza is rich in nutrients) or ice cream. But if the OP would be bulking at 3000 + (a lot for many women), then it's almost impossible to get that from nutrient dense foods only. And that is why I continually quote Alan Aragon.
And believe it or not, we really do believe in the same thing for health, but I think the calorie levels is where the difference is.
People tend to come at it from different sides, but usually if you compare the diet of the "mostly clean" camp and the "all things in moderation" camp, their diaries are pretty close. Everyone views each one as an extreme, but I think most people realize you need to eat a majority of nutrient dense food to hit your micro levels, macros, and to feel satiated.0 -
This is where I usually come in and tell them that plain almonds are their best friend.worldofalice wrote: »worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
I am not sure you are understanding the context of what we are saying regarding the bold statement. While it's true that calories, in and by itself, will determine weight loss, maintenance and gain, macros and micros will determine health. We all advocate for getting calories from a variety of sources to maximize nutrient intake. Commonly, we suggest 80-90% of your calories from whole grains, fruits, veggies, proteins, dairy, etc... No one is suggesting you eat a diet in mars bars or any other nutrient lacking food.
But, and this needs to be emphasized a lot, when a person is bulking, they need to consistently hit their calorie goals to maximize muscle growth and minimize fat growth. This is unlike cutting, when you can make up for a bad days or two or even a bad week. If you try to make up for bad weeks while bulking, you can end up with a worse fat/muscle ratio. Add considering some people bulk at very high calorie values, you need to use whatever means possible to get calories up. And some people struggle to hit those numbers (fairly a frequent thing in the gaining weight section). And lets face it, its significantly easier to get all your nutrients during a bulk, than a cut.
I definitely agree with what you're saying regarding bulking and needing to get calories in. High fat/calorie foods are definitely essential! The 80-90% approach works well. I simply disagree with those on bulking forums who advocate ALL THE PIZZA etc so long as it's high cal (I've seen plenty!) Personally, I would rather that I got the majority of those nutrients and calories in through avocado, nuts and nut butters, coconut oil, dates, dark chocolate etc purely because they have more beneficial properties for the same amount of calories as more processed foods. I'm coming it this from a wellbeing angle - these are the foods that make me feel good in my body, and for a recovering anorexic like OP I would say that is very important to avoid relapse! So I feel like the quality of the calories do count - however this is just the MAJORITY of calories, it's absolutely essential that OP doesn't restrict herself to 100% clean eating, purely for mental health reasons!
The thing is, I only see the bold in threads where members struggle to get calories, especially when those members bulk at 4000+ calories.
Generally what I see what people struggle to get calories, which is not the OP's situation and I apologize for a tangent, people recommend high calorie foods.. because lets face it that you can't bulk without calories. The the OP is bulking at 2400 or less, than it's very easy to get plenty of nutrient dense foods and not have to eat things like pizza (unless she wanted to, which pizza is rich in nutrients) or ice cream. But if the OP would be bulking at 3000 + (a lot for many women), then it's almost impossible to get that from nutrient dense foods only. And that is why I continually quote Alan Aragon.
And believe it or not, we really do believe in the same thing for health, but I think the calorie levels is where the difference is.
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worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
First - there is no such thing as individual junk food in the context of an overall diet that hits macros and micros.
second - 500 calories of whole grains = 500 calories of deep fried mars bars from an energy standpoint; however, they are not nutritionally the same.
third - You actually want more carbs when bulking/adding muscle. You want more protein when cutting to maintain existing muscle.
fourth - "goodness" = hitting your micronutrient requirements and then filling in with food that you like. when trying to add weight calories are king, and good luck trying to get into a surplus eating nothing but broccoli and chicken.0 -
worldofalice wrote: »worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
I am not sure you are understanding the context of what we are saying regarding the bold statement. While it's true that calories, in and by itself, will determine weight loss, maintenance and gain, macros and micros will determine health. We all advocate for getting calories from a variety of sources to maximize nutrient intake. Commonly, we suggest 80-90% of your calories from whole grains, fruits, veggies, proteins, dairy, etc... No one is suggesting you eat a diet in mars bars or any other nutrient lacking food.
But, and this needs to be emphasized a lot, when a person is bulking, they need to consistently hit their calorie goals to maximize muscle growth and minimize fat growth. This is unlike cutting, when you can make up for a bad days or two or even a bad week. If you try to make up for bad weeks while bulking, you can end up with a worse fat/muscle ratio. Add considering some people bulk at very high calorie values, you need to use whatever means possible to get calories up. And some people struggle to hit those numbers (fairly a frequent thing in the gaining weight section). And lets face it, its significantly easier to get all your nutrients during a bulk, than a cut.
I definitely agree with what you're saying regarding bulking and needing to get calories in. High fat/calorie foods are definitely essential! The 80-90% approach works well. I simply disagree with those on bulking forums who advocate ALL THE PIZZA etc so long as it's high cal (I've seen plenty!) Personally, I would rather that I got the majority of those nutrients and calories in through avocado, nuts and nut butters, coconut oil, dates, dark chocolate etc purely because they have more beneficial properties for the same amount of calories as more processed foods. I'm coming it this from a wellbeing angle - these are the foods that make me feel good in my body, and for a recovering anorexic like OP I would say that is very important to avoid relapse! So I feel like the quality of the calories do count - however this is just the MAJORITY of calories, it's absolutely essential that OP doesn't restrict herself to 100% clean eating, purely for mental health reasons!
please link me to the thread where someone advocating a diet of 100% pizza when bulking…that is a straw man argument, and if you are going to make that argument, then please exit this forum, and take that kind of stuff to them main forums. We try to keep the gaining forum free of straw man arguments and false choices.
Like @psulemon said, pizza and other calorie dense foods are recommended when people are struggling to get into a surplus, and that advice is always prefaced by stating that one should meet miconutrient needs first, and then fill in with calorie dense foods after.0 -
worldofalice wrote: »worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
I am not sure you are understanding the context of what we are saying regarding the bold statement. While it's true that calories, in and by itself, will determine weight loss, maintenance and gain, macros and micros will determine health. We all advocate for getting calories from a variety of sources to maximize nutrient intake. Commonly, we suggest 80-90% of your calories from whole grains, fruits, veggies, proteins, dairy, etc... No one is suggesting you eat a diet in mars bars or any other nutrient lacking food.
But, and this needs to be emphasized a lot, when a person is bulking, they need to consistently hit their calorie goals to maximize muscle growth and minimize fat growth. This is unlike cutting, when you can make up for a bad days or two or even a bad week. If you try to make up for bad weeks while bulking, you can end up with a worse fat/muscle ratio. Add considering some people bulk at very high calorie values, you need to use whatever means possible to get calories up. And some people struggle to hit those numbers (fairly a frequent thing in the gaining weight section). And lets face it, its significantly easier to get all your nutrients during a bulk, than a cut.
I definitely agree with what you're saying regarding bulking and needing to get calories in. High fat/calorie foods are definitely essential! The 80-90% approach works well. I simply disagree with those on bulking forums who advocate ALL THE PIZZA etc so long as it's high cal (I've seen plenty!) Personally, I would rather that I got the majority of those nutrients and calories in through avocado, nuts and nut butters, coconut oil, dates, dark chocolate etc purely because they have more beneficial properties for the same amount of calories as more processed foods. I'm coming it this from a wellbeing angle - these are the foods that make me feel good in my body, and for a recovering anorexic like OP I would say that is very important to avoid relapse! So I feel like the quality of the calories do count - however this is just the MAJORITY of calories, it's absolutely essential that OP doesn't restrict herself to 100% clean eating, purely for mental health reasons!
please link me to the thread where someone advocating a diet of 100% pizza when bulking…that is a straw man argument, and if you are going to make that argument, then please exit this forum, and take that kind of stuff to them main forums. We try to keep the gaining forum free of straw man arguments and false choices.
Like @psulemon said, pizza and other calorie dense foods are recommended when people are struggling to get into a surplus, and that advice is always prefaced by stating that one should meet miconutrient needs first, and then fill in with calorie dense foods after.
Jesus, I was literally just trying to advocate healthy food, turns out @psulemon and I are pretty much in agreement...
I never said I have seen someone advocate eating nothing but pizza while bulking, however I have plenty of amateur guy friends who have lived off pretty much purely junk when bulking. It's an attitude I have encountered and I would not use a straw-man argument as they are a pet hate of mine. However that isn't really relevant to the OP's original thread as she doesn't fit that demographic. Back to my original harmless comment - eat lots of good, calorie-dense foods, and less nutritious stuff whenever you want it. Just prioritize getting your nutrients in as your boy has been so severely deprived of them in the past.0 -
worldofalice wrote: »worldofalice wrote: »worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
I am not sure you are understanding the context of what we are saying regarding the bold statement. While it's true that calories, in and by itself, will determine weight loss, maintenance and gain, macros and micros will determine health. We all advocate for getting calories from a variety of sources to maximize nutrient intake. Commonly, we suggest 80-90% of your calories from whole grains, fruits, veggies, proteins, dairy, etc... No one is suggesting you eat a diet in mars bars or any other nutrient lacking food.
But, and this needs to be emphasized a lot, when a person is bulking, they need to consistently hit their calorie goals to maximize muscle growth and minimize fat growth. This is unlike cutting, when you can make up for a bad days or two or even a bad week. If you try to make up for bad weeks while bulking, you can end up with a worse fat/muscle ratio. Add considering some people bulk at very high calorie values, you need to use whatever means possible to get calories up. And some people struggle to hit those numbers (fairly a frequent thing in the gaining weight section). And lets face it, its significantly easier to get all your nutrients during a bulk, than a cut.
I definitely agree with what you're saying regarding bulking and needing to get calories in. High fat/calorie foods are definitely essential! The 80-90% approach works well. I simply disagree with those on bulking forums who advocate ALL THE PIZZA etc so long as it's high cal (I've seen plenty!) Personally, I would rather that I got the majority of those nutrients and calories in through avocado, nuts and nut butters, coconut oil, dates, dark chocolate etc purely because they have more beneficial properties for the same amount of calories as more processed foods. I'm coming it this from a wellbeing angle - these are the foods that make me feel good in my body, and for a recovering anorexic like OP I would say that is very important to avoid relapse! So I feel like the quality of the calories do count - however this is just the MAJORITY of calories, it's absolutely essential that OP doesn't restrict herself to 100% clean eating, purely for mental health reasons!
please link me to the thread where someone advocating a diet of 100% pizza when bulking…that is a straw man argument, and if you are going to make that argument, then please exit this forum, and take that kind of stuff to them main forums. We try to keep the gaining forum free of straw man arguments and false choices.
Like @psulemon said, pizza and other calorie dense foods are recommended when people are struggling to get into a surplus, and that advice is always prefaced by stating that one should meet miconutrient needs first, and then fill in with calorie dense foods after.
Jesus, I was literally just trying to advocate healthy food, turns out @psulemon and I are pretty much in agreement...
I never said I have seen someone advocate eating nothing but pizza while bulking, however I have plenty of amateur guy friends who have lived off pretty much purely junk when bulking. It's an attitude I have encountered and I would not use a straw-man argument as they are a pet hate of mine. However that isn't really relevant to the OP's original thread as she doesn't fit that demographic. Back to my original harmless comment - eat lots of good, calorie-dense foods, and less nutritious stuff whenever you want it. Just prioritize getting your nutrients in as your boy has been so severely deprived of them in the past.
then why did you say the following: "I simply disagree with those on bulking forums who advocate ALL THE PIZZA etc so long as it's high cal (I've seen plenty!)"
So again, please point me to the thread and/or person that is claiming one should bulk on a diet of 100% pizza?
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worldofalice wrote: »worldofalice wrote: »worldofalice wrote: »I think nutrients do matter... at the end of the day, healthy food is better than loads of junk food. There is too much emphasis on calories alone on MFP, and not enough on goodness. 500 calories of wholegrains is better than 500 calories of deep-fried mars bar. More protein will help with muscle gains. But don't stress too much about eating "clean", especially with a disordered eating history - you're allowed treats! It would be all too easy to slip into orthorexia, it's all about balance. And women NEED fat for reproduction, hormone levels, and general wellbeing. Congratulations on your weight restoration, that's fantastic!
I am not sure you are understanding the context of what we are saying regarding the bold statement. While it's true that calories, in and by itself, will determine weight loss, maintenance and gain, macros and micros will determine health. We all advocate for getting calories from a variety of sources to maximize nutrient intake. Commonly, we suggest 80-90% of your calories from whole grains, fruits, veggies, proteins, dairy, etc... No one is suggesting you eat a diet in mars bars or any other nutrient lacking food.
But, and this needs to be emphasized a lot, when a person is bulking, they need to consistently hit their calorie goals to maximize muscle growth and minimize fat growth. This is unlike cutting, when you can make up for a bad days or two or even a bad week. If you try to make up for bad weeks while bulking, you can end up with a worse fat/muscle ratio. Add considering some people bulk at very high calorie values, you need to use whatever means possible to get calories up. And some people struggle to hit those numbers (fairly a frequent thing in the gaining weight section). And lets face it, its significantly easier to get all your nutrients during a bulk, than a cut.
I definitely agree with what you're saying regarding bulking and needing to get calories in. High fat/calorie foods are definitely essential! The 80-90% approach works well. I simply disagree with those on bulking forums who advocate ALL THE PIZZA etc so long as it's high cal (I've seen plenty!) Personally, I would rather that I got the majority of those nutrients and calories in through avocado, nuts and nut butters, coconut oil, dates, dark chocolate etc purely because they have more beneficial properties for the same amount of calories as more processed foods. I'm coming it this from a wellbeing angle - these are the foods that make me feel good in my body, and for a recovering anorexic like OP I would say that is very important to avoid relapse! So I feel like the quality of the calories do count - however this is just the MAJORITY of calories, it's absolutely essential that OP doesn't restrict herself to 100% clean eating, purely for mental health reasons!
please link me to the thread where someone advocating a diet of 100% pizza when bulking…that is a straw man argument, and if you are going to make that argument, then please exit this forum, and take that kind of stuff to them main forums. We try to keep the gaining forum free of straw man arguments and false choices.
Like @psulemon said, pizza and other calorie dense foods are recommended when people are struggling to get into a surplus, and that advice is always prefaced by stating that one should meet miconutrient needs first, and then fill in with calorie dense foods after.
Jesus, I was literally just trying to advocate healthy food, turns out @psulemon and I are pretty much in agreement...
I never said I have seen someone advocate eating nothing but pizza while bulking, however I have plenty of amateur guy friends who have lived off pretty much purely junk when bulking. It's an attitude I have encountered and I would not use a straw-man argument as they are a pet hate of mine. However that isn't really relevant to the OP's original thread as she doesn't fit that demographic. Back to my original harmless comment - eat lots of good, calorie-dense foods, and less nutritious stuff whenever you want it. Just prioritize getting your nutrients in as your boy has been so severely deprived of them in the past.
then why did you say the following: "I simply disagree with those on bulking forums who advocate ALL THE PIZZA etc so long as it's high cal (I've seen plenty!)"
So again, please point me to the thread and/or person that is claiming one should bulk on a diet of 100% pizza?
I think you slightly misunderstood my comment - I meant people advocating eating all the pizza they have available, not people eating nothing but pizza. I've seen it on a few internet forums in the past year or so, not in the past few days and can't really be bothered to go trawling the internet as I don't mind if you don't believe me but have a look yourself if you're that bothered - people with slightly extreme views do exist! I wrote that comment because I'd misinterpreted something a previous poster had written, which has now been cleared up. I wasn't expecting to be cross-examined, it was meant in good humour.
Also with regards to:
First - there is no such thing as individual junk food in the context of an overall diet that hits macros and micros.
second - 500 calories of whole grains = 500 calories of deep fried mars bars from an energy standpoint; however, they are not nutritionally the same.
third - You actually want more carbs when bulking/adding muscle. You want more protein when cutting to maintain existing muscle.
fourth - "goodness" = hitting your micronutrient requirements and then filling in with food that you like. when trying to add weight calories are king, and good luck trying to get into a surplus eating nothing but broccoli and chicken.
First - yep I agree with that, I guess it's kind of an IIFYM-style approach and is a healthy way of looking at things.
Second - Again I think you misunderstood, you basically just reinforced what I was saying so I think we're in agreement here!
third-I'll take your word for that, I'm trying to clean bulk myself and that does contradict a lot of what I've read but I'll do some more research and switch things up accordingly. At the end of the day, restricting on any macro is not productive when bulking!
fourth - I was more referring to foods like peanut butter, avocado, nut, coconut oil, dates etc - pretty easy to get into a surplus on those, I gained 10kg on it! But obviously that's down to personal preference, if you've already hit your macros and are just filling in then you're right, any high-cal food goes. Depends what OP feels like! She is trying to limit fat gains so maybe for her peace of mind and how she feels in herself, eating clean is a good route for her - although some fat gain will be inevitable, I have found in the past the the quality of my food, not just the calories, have affected my body composition.
Anyway, I feel like this is a massive tangent and we pretty much agree on most things and there have just been some communication errors here.
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I think we are falling in the territory of "bad foods" and "good foods" - coming from a past of issues with those two, I have reached a moment where I see now all as - food. Some days a "bad food" can be a good food to hit your macros (God bless the Sci Mx protein cookie of today!). I try to eat "clean" most of the time because I get CRAZY hunger pangs and only ONE slice of pizza would not satisfy my inner fat child.
I think it goes down to personal preference, hitting the calories and falling off the bandwagon every now and again (because let's face it - orthorexia also sucks)0 -
@worldofalice sadly we are all on the same page. We just really hate when people suggest cetain foods are bad and good. In fact? Pizza can be very healthy. It literally has all three macros. Add in some veggies and you have a solid meal.
Also, clean bulks more refer to a smaller surplus rather than the types of foods.0 -
@worldofalice sadly we are all on the same page. We just really hate when people suggest cetain foods are bad and good. In fact? Pizza can be very healthy. It literally has all three macros. Add in some veggies and you have a solid meal.
Also, clean bulks more refer to a smaller surplus rather than the types of foods.
That's very true. I also read that kebabs are one of the best foods you can have after a night out since you have carbs in the wrap, protein and fat from the meat and plenty of vegetables. I think it's all about hitting nutrients in the end.0 -
Everyone's body type is different too. Some "hard gainers" can eat what they want and don't seem to put on that much fat.
For me, i can gain fat easily. So I need to keep it as clean as possible. Which I will start doing Sept 1.0 -
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A lot of people opt for the if it fit your macros, you can eat whatever you want.
Even if that's true, eating healthier definitely makes a huge performance difference in the gym.0 -
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A lot of people opt for the if it fit your macros, you can eat whatever you want.
Even if that's true, eating healthier definitely makes a huge performance difference in the gym.
that is NOT IIFYM..
please re-read the earlier discussion, in this thread, where people clearly said that you should meat micro nutritional needs first and THEN fill in with calorie dense foods.0 -
@worldofalice sadly we are all on the same page. We just really hate when people suggest cetain foods are bad and good. In fact? Pizza can be very healthy. It literally has all three macros. Add in some veggies and you have a solid meal.
Also, clean bulks more refer to a smaller surplus rather than the types of foods.
That's very true. I also read that kebabs are one of the best foods you can have after a night out since you have carbs in the wrap, protein and fat from the meat and plenty of vegetables. I think it's all about hitting nutrients in the end.
That is true. I eat a kebab every Friday. Meat, bread, salad. However I'm under no illusion it optimal. The one I eat (in the UK) has all the Macros represented, but it's over 1000 cals for only about 30g protein and way over anybody's recommended fat requirement for the day. I have lamb meat, but to be quite honest it could be a mixture of anything. Salt content is stupidly high too (even though I don't add my own salt). Great for a treat, but by no means optimal for hitting macros even though all macros are represented.0 -
A lot of people opt for the if it fit your macros, you can eat whatever you want.
Even if that's true, eating healthier definitely makes a huge performance difference in the gym.
The whole purpose of IIFYM is to hit your micro and macro goals, whilst enjoying the foods you like.
Don't interpret it as eating donuts and ice cream all day and eating nothing with high micronutrient profiles...
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