When to Start Direct Arm Work (curls, etc)
Packerjohn
Posts: 4,855 Member
One of the rules/guidelines at Cressy Performance, one of the top strength and conditioning places in the US:
No direct arm work until you’re able to perform one strict, bodyweight chin-up (women) or five chin-ups (men)
http://tonygentilcore.com/2015/09/gym-etiquette-201/
No direct arm work until you’re able to perform one strict, bodyweight chin-up (women) or five chin-ups (men)
http://tonygentilcore.com/2015/09/gym-etiquette-201/
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Replies
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my god some of those crossfit fails were horrifying0
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Huh, my coach had me start biceps curl to unblock my pull-up. That was the weak link and within 3 weeks I had finally managed my first pull-up. There are exceptions to every rule, lol.0
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That's the most arbitrary rule of thumb I've seen in quite a while. But certainly they're basing it on some form of established science, right?
Right????
Hopefully the science will also explain why I'm not allowed to do triceps work until I can do five pull ups0 -
Strong logic from Cressy Performance
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Curls are THE mandatory beginner exercise. Science has proven it over and over.0
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Why not just concentrate on various compound exercises which work the arms instead of worrying about "direct arm work".
Unless you are an advanced lifter you would be better off with a simple lifting routine.0 -
I can't remember the last time I did direct arm work0
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As mentioned above, focus on compound movements and your arms will have no problems growing. Rows are a great arm exercise, as are dips and any chest press.0
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Why not just concentrate on various compound exercises which work the arms instead of worrying about "direct arm work".
One reason is that outside the gym, the curling movement is fairly common when lifting heavy objects, so it's a valid movement to train. Personally i think it's kinda boring, so i add a shoulder press at the top of the curl.
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That's the most arbitrary rule of thumb I've seen in quite a while. But certainly they're basing it on some form of established science, right?
Right????
Hopefully the science will also explain why I'm not allowed to do triceps work until I can do five pull ups
Author has formal education in exercise science and is co-owner of what is considered on of the top training facilities in the country. Probably had a decent idea of what gets the best results for most people. Also look at the strength and conditioning programs at universities. You won't see much bicep/tricep isolation work in those programs.
If you like the isolation work go for it but most likely you are not being as effective/efficient in your training as you could be.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »That's the most arbitrary rule of thumb I've seen in quite a while. But certainly they're basing it on some form of established science, right?
Right????
Hopefully the science will also explain why I'm not allowed to do triceps work until I can do five pull ups
Author has formal education in exercise science and is co-owner of what is considered on of the top training facilities in the country. Probably had a decent idea of what gets the best results for most people. Also look at the strength and conditioning programs at universities. You won't see much bicep/tricep isolation work in those programs.
If you like the isolation work go for it but most likely you are not being as effective/efficient in your training as you could be.
While he is formally educated and works at a great gym it is not true that you don't see isolation work in top universities. That is why his rule is geared towards beginners. Most university, national, and professional teams do isolation exercises to keep the whole body strong and capable of performing. A great example is that the Chinese and Russian weightlifting teams do curls, as well as other shoulder and isolation arm exercises.
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Packerjohn wrote: »One of the rules/guidelines at Cressy Performance, one of the top strength and conditioning places in the US:
No direct arm work until you’re able to perform one strict, bodyweight chin-up (women) or five chin-ups (men)
http://tonygentilcore.com/2015/09/gym-etiquette-201/
Totally disagree with this.0 -
Do you have to do the chin-up before checking out the dumbbells for curls? Is it like swiping your library card to get a book?0
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You all get the joke, right? That article was only semi-serious. They deal with a lot of younger athletes (esp baseball players), and they are just emphasizing the need to built a solid strength foundation before spending time with accessory isolation work.0
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Packerjohn wrote: »That's the most arbitrary rule of thumb I've seen in quite a while. But certainly they're basing it on some form of established science, right?
Right????
Hopefully the science will also explain why I'm not allowed to do triceps work until I can do five pull ups
Author has formal education in exercise science and is co-owner of what is considered on of the top training facilities in the country. Probably had a decent idea of what gets the best results for most people. Also look at the strength and conditioning programs at universities. You won't see much bicep/tricep isolation work in those programs.
If you like the isolation work go for it but most likely you are not being as effective/efficient in your training as you could be.
While he is formally educated and works at a great gym it is not true that you don't see isolation work in top universities. That is why his rule is geared towards beginners. Most university, national, and professional teams do isolation exercises to keep the whole body strong and capable of performing. A great example is that the Chinese and Russian weightlifting teams do curls, as well as other shoulder and isolation arm exercises.
I would assume the members of the Chinese and Russian weightlifting teams as well as pro and college level athletes can do 5 pull ups.
The general programs for the pro/college teams will usually not include isolation exercises. Sure if someone has a specific issue identified they will program exercises to address that issue.
Agree he is addressing the people with little strength who are enamored with curls and kickbacks.0 -
You all get the joke, right? That article was only semi-serious. They deal with a lot of younger athletes (esp baseball players), and they are just emphasizing the need to built a solid strength foundation before spending time with accessory isolation work.
Of course the article is tongue in cheek, but this has also developed a dogmatic following over the last few years. In large part the following is thanks to guys like Rippetoe and the screaming horde of Crossfitters. I agree beginners would do well to put down the twenty pound dumbbells and work on chin ups, they should also think about leaving the pull downs alone and learning to do pull-ups. But, the idea that isolation exercises offer nothing to the strength and general fitness market is wrong. In particular for injury prevention and injury recovery. People take articles like this and strip the sarcasm and humor from them then use it as a talking point. The picture of the woman doing leg abductors made me laugh.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »That's the most arbitrary rule of thumb I've seen in quite a while. But certainly they're basing it on some form of established science, right?
Right????
Hopefully the science will also explain why I'm not allowed to do triceps work until I can do five pull ups
Author has formal education in exercise science and is co-owner of what is considered on of the top training facilities in the country. Probably had a decent idea of what gets the best results for most people. Also look at the strength and conditioning programs at universities. You won't see much bicep/tricep isolation work in those programs.
So when do we get to the science?If you like the isolation work go for it but most likely you are not being as effective/efficient in your training as you could be.
Yes. I've really been suffering here. I'm certain it's the curls that have been holding me back
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You all get the joke, right? That article was only semi-serious. They deal with a lot of younger athletes (esp baseball players), and they are just emphasizing the need to built a solid strength foundation before spending time with accessory isolation work.
Of course the article is tongue in cheek, but this has also developed a dogmatic following over the last few years. In large part the following is thanks to guys like Rippetoe and the screaming horde of Crossfitters. I agree beginners would do well to put down the twenty pound dumbbells and work on chin ups, they should also think about leaving the pull downs alone and learning to do pull-ups. But, the idea that isolation exercises offer nothing to the strength and general fitness market is wrong. In particular for injury prevention and injury recovery. People take articles like this and strip the sarcasm and humor from them then use it as a talking point. The picture of the woman doing leg abductors made me laugh.
^all this.
Know how cool it is when you're talking about Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones with a friend and someone walks up and says "I don't own a TV"? Don't you always love when that person does that? It makes them the coolest person in the room every single time.0 -
I do isolation bicep and tricep work as well as compound movements that incorporate both. However I don't think I could do a single pull up lol! I have always put this down to the fact that I don't really practice them (I know I should) and my back is very weak in comparison to the rest of my body. I would never have done a dumbbell curl if I had to wait until I could knock out five pull ups!0
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I do bicep and tricep work (in addition to compound movements) and am unapologetic. I like filling out my shirts and receiving compliments.0
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You all get the joke, right? That article was only semi-serious. They deal with a lot of younger athletes (esp baseball players), and they are just emphasizing the need to built a solid strength foundation before spending time with accessory isolation work.
Of course the article is tongue in cheek, but this has also developed a dogmatic following over the last few years. In large part the following is thanks to guys like Rippetoe and the screaming horde of Crossfitters. I agree beginners would do well to put down the twenty pound dumbbells and work on chin ups, they should also think about leaving the pull downs alone and learning to do pull-ups. But, the idea that isolation exercises offer nothing to the strength and general fitness market is wrong. In particular for injury prevention and injury recovery. People take articles like this and strip the sarcasm and humor from them then use it as a talking point. The picture of the woman doing leg abductors made me laugh.
Good points.
I think it's good for us all to remember that we all have different goals. What I do might look frou frou or pointless to somebody else but that somebody else likely has different goals. I do lying band abductions and seated band abductions and x-band walks, based on what I've read and learned from Bret Contreras/Strong Curves. I do pull downs because I can do one chin up and that's it. I'm working toward building strength to do more but that takes time and pull downs are one of the steps to get there. And then sometimes I do things just because I enjoy them, and that's perfectly fine. It's my workout. If others have a problem with it, they welcome to ignore me.0 -
Can you do 5 good pull ups? In thst case the guideline doesn't apply to you.Packerjohn wrote: »That's the most arbitrary rule of thumb I've seen in quite a while. But certainly they're basing it on some form of established science, right?
Right????
Hopefully the science will also explain why I'm not allowed to do triceps work until I can do five pull ups
Author has formal education in exercise science and is co-owner of what is considered on of the top training facilities in the country. Probably had a decent idea of what gets the best results for most people. Also look at the strength and conditioning programs at universities. You won't see much bicep/tricep isolation work in those programs.
So when do we get to the science?If you like the isolation work go for it but most likely you are not being as effective/efficient in your training as you could be.
Yes. I've really been suffering here. I'm certain it's the curls that have been holding me back
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Packerjohn wrote: »
Can you do 5 good pull ups? In thst case the guideline doesn't apply to you.Packerjohn wrote: »That's the most arbitrary rule of thumb I've seen in quite a while. But certainly they're basing it on some form of established science, right?
Right????
Hopefully the science will also explain why I'm not allowed to do triceps work until I can do five pull ups
Author has formal education in exercise science and is co-owner of what is considered on of the top training facilities in the country. Probably had a decent idea of what gets the best results for most people. Also look at the strength and conditioning programs at universities. You won't see much bicep/tricep isolation work in those programs.
So when do we get to the science?If you like the isolation work go for it but most likely you are not being as effective/efficient in your training as you could be.
Yes. I've really been suffering here. I'm certain it's the curls that have been holding me back
Why would I want to do pull ups when I have a perfectly good lat pull-down machine sitting right there?0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »
Can you do 5 good pull ups? In thst case the guideline doesn't apply to you.Packerjohn wrote: »That's the most arbitrary rule of thumb I've seen in quite a while. But certainly they're basing it on some form of established science, right?
Right????
Hopefully the science will also explain why I'm not allowed to do triceps work until I can do five pull ups
Author has formal education in exercise science and is co-owner of what is considered on of the top training facilities in the country. Probably had a decent idea of what gets the best results for most people. Also look at the strength and conditioning programs at universities. You won't see much bicep/tricep isolation work in those programs.
So when do we get to the science?If you like the isolation work go for it but most likely you are not being as effective/efficient in your training as you could be.
Yes. I've really been suffering here. I'm certain it's the curls that have been holding me back
Why would I want to do pull ups when I have a perfectly good lat pull-down machine sitting right there?
Because you can't do 5 good pull ups? Could always find some bands for assistance as you work up to it.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »
Can you do 5 good pull ups? In thst case the guideline doesn't apply to you.Packerjohn wrote: »That's the most arbitrary rule of thumb I've seen in quite a while. But certainly they're basing it on some form of established science, right?
Right????
Hopefully the science will also explain why I'm not allowed to do triceps work until I can do five pull ups
Author has formal education in exercise science and is co-owner of what is considered on of the top training facilities in the country. Probably had a decent idea of what gets the best results for most people. Also look at the strength and conditioning programs at universities. You won't see much bicep/tricep isolation work in those programs.
So when do we get to the science?If you like the isolation work go for it but most likely you are not being as effective/efficient in your training as you could be.
Yes. I've really been suffering here. I'm certain it's the curls that have been holding me back
Why would I want to do pull ups when I have a perfectly good lat pull-down machine sitting right there?
Because you can't do 5 good pull ups? Could always find some bands for assistance as you work up to it.
How are 5 pull ups going to help me with my gainz?0 -
I'd head something similar before. Think it was in Men's Health magazine, the one with Kevin Hart on the cover. He said something about so many pull ups before worrying about curls. I was bored and with no customers so was looking it up since I at least knew who he was, unlike the golfer cover and such.
I only do curls because they are in the program I'm using at this time. I don't see the appeal and still find the ez curl bar awkward in general. Seated db curls, also not a fan of those. But it says to do them, so that is what I will do. I haven't even tried to do a chin up in years. So much effort to find something just to reach the bars. I did try the assistance machine and the weights stop when top of my head reaches the handles. (Translation = I'm short)
Though this could be an excuse not to do things. "Some post online said don't do curls." hmmm Tempting. Is there also something you can post about not working calves? *awaits*0 -
DawnEmbers wrote: »I'd head something similar before. Think it was in Men's Health magazine, the one with Kevin Hart on the cover. He said something about so many pull ups before worrying about curls. I was bored and with no customers so was looking it up since I at least knew who he was, unlike the golfer cover and such.
I only do curls because they are in the program I'm using at this time. I don't see the appeal and still find the ez curl bar awkward in general. Seated db curls, also not a fan of those. But it says to do them, so that is what I will do. I haven't even tried to do a chin up in years. So much effort to find something just to reach the bars. I did try the assistance machine and the weights stop when top of my head reaches the handles. (Translation = I'm short)
Though this could be an excuse not to do things. "Some post online said don't do curls." hmmm Tempting. Is there also something you can post about not working calves? *awaits*
Calves are totally genetic. No point in working them.
(Kidding. Work them if you want.) 0
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