Cut progress and evaluation
anask4
Posts: 86 Member
Trying to decide if I should keep cutting or switch to a slow bulk or recomp. I lift heavy 3-4 days a week. Focus on compound movements such as bench press(115 lbs), squats(155 lbs), deadlifts(185), stiff leg deadlifts(175), and shoulder press(with 40lb Dumbbells or 75 on a barbell). I also supplement with isolation lifts for each body part. I am 20 years old, male, and weigh 142-143 lbs. what would you guys do? Ultimately I want to look big/muscular but decently lean at the same time. I understand this will take a couple years to achieve. I have attached some pictures
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Replies
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judging from your pictures you are about 18 to 20% body fat, I would keep cutting until you get it under 15% and then go for a slow bulk = .5 pound per week gain.0
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judging from your pictures you are about 18 to 20% body fat, I would keep cutting until you get it under 15% and then go for a slow bulk = .5 pound per week gain.
Thanks for the input. How plausible is it for me to start slowly bulking now rather than cutting down first? Would there be a significant increase in fat gain now rather than at 15% bf if I start bulking immediately once I get there? The navy circumference method puts me at 18% and calipers put me around 15-16% but user error is probably present.
PS I have been properly lifting heavy for almost a year and a half now
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judging from your pictures you are about 18 to 20% body fat, I would keep cutting until you get it under 15% and then go for a slow bulk = .5 pound per week gain.
Thanks for the input. How plausible is it for me to start slowly bulking now rather than cutting down first? Would there be a significant increase in fat gain now rather than at 15% bf if I start bulking immediately once I get there? The navy circumference method puts me at 18% and calipers put me around 15-16% but user error is probably present.
PS I have been properly lifting heavy for almost a year and a half now
When you bulk at higher body fat ranges, your body isn't a primed to gain muscle. So you fat/muscle ratio might not be as favorable. This is why it might be better to do a slow cut to maximize calorie intake to sustain muscle mass and improve muscle effeciency
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Slow deficit then switch to a lean bulk. You don't have quite enough mass yet to go on a crazy cut, but you also should drop a little more weight then gradually increase calories into a surplus0
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I would put you between 20-25% bf, OP. You would benefit most from cutting down to 10-15% range. As @ndj1979 & @psulemon have stated, your body is going to take a big portion of your surplus calories and put them into fat storage at your current bodyfat levels. This is called the p-ratio (calorie partioning ratio). Your ratio will be much more favorable to build muscle if you are leaner.
Aim for a 1lbs/week loss and keep lifting frequently (try hitting the same muscle groups at a minimum twice per week) to preserve the muscle you do have while you drop the fat. Do not be tempted to cut too aggressively (over 1lbs/week) or you will sacrifice muscle mass doing so. This can also happen if you are in a calorie deficit and neglect to lift.
Cutting will produce a very nice aesthetic effect once you get below 15% bodyfat. Contrary to what you think, the athletic look you see in the media is largely achieved by hitting a low bodyfat level.
Also, trying to drop below 10% bodyfat is usually not very sustainable without extreme diet controls or "help". Your body will drop decent amounts of muscle while you try to drop below this bodyfat level.
Visual eyechart for reference, calipers can only get you in 5%+/- accuracy even if you use a very precise test:
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judging from your pictures you are about 18 to 20% body fat, I would keep cutting until you get it under 15% and then go for a slow bulk = .5 pound per week gain.
Thanks for the input. How plausible is it for me to start slowly bulking now rather than cutting down first? Would there be a significant increase in fat gain now rather than at 15% bf if I start bulking immediately once I get there? The navy circumference method puts me at 18% and calipers put me around 15-16% but user error is probably present.
PS I have been properly lifting heavy for almost a year and a half now
When you bulk at higher body fat ranges, your body isn't a primed to gain muscle. So you fat/muscle ratio might not be as favorable. This is why it might be better to do a slow cut to maximize calorie intake to sustain muscle mass and improve muscle effeciency
this ...0 -
pinggolfer96 wrote: »Slow deficit then switch to a lean bulk. You don't have quite enough mass yet to go on a crazy cut, but you also should drop a little more weight then gradually increase calories into a surplus
If I were to eat around maintenance or slightly above now instead of cutting down first, would I still make good gains? I know I have some fat to lose but cutting is getting harder to stick to. Basically I want to transition now but I won't if it will make a big difference0 -
pinggolfer96 wrote: »Slow deficit then switch to a lean bulk. You don't have quite enough mass yet to go on a crazy cut, but you also should drop a little more weight then gradually increase calories into a surplus
If I were to eat around maintenance or slightly above now instead of cutting down first, would I still make good gains? I know I have some fat to lose but cutting is getting harder to stick to. Basically I want to transition now but I won't if it will make a big difference
no, you need to get your body fat down to sub 15% in order to run a recomp or bulk ...
ETA - if you want to take a diet break for a month because you are tired of cutting then I get that; however, if you want to see any appreciable results from recomping or bulking you need to get your body fat % down.
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pinggolfer96 wrote: »Slow deficit then switch to a lean bulk. You don't have quite enough mass yet to go on a crazy cut, but you also should drop a little more weight then gradually increase calories into a surplus
If I were to eat around maintenance or slightly above now instead of cutting down first, would I still make good gains? I know I have some fat to lose but cutting is getting harder to stick to. Basically I want to transition now but I won't if it will make a big difference
You will see strength gains but your muscle gains will more than likely be offset by fat gains in terms of look. If you want to be a bigger version of your current self, than its a call you must make. But at the end, you will be in the same situation as now.
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pinggolfer96 wrote: »Slow deficit then switch to a lean bulk. You don't have quite enough mass yet to go on a crazy cut, but you also should drop a little more weight then gradually increase calories into a surplus
If I were to eat around maintenance or slightly above now instead of cutting down first, would I still make good gains? I know I have some fat to lose but cutting is getting harder to stick to. Basically I want to transition now but I won't if it will make a big difference
Nobody said it was going to be easy man0 -
Nobody said it was going to be easy man
Trust me, I know that. I used to weigh 190, got down as low as 130. I looked essentially the same at 130 as I do now which is why I was hesitant to keep cutting. But I guess I will stick with it as long as I can0 -
I think there are two problems dieters overlook. One people often have unrealistic goals. "I'll be ripped in a few months" is usually not the case.
It takes serious dedication and a lot of consistency , work, work, work, diet diet, diet to get a decent body. Especially if you were overweight previous. Age, genetics, diet, also are huge contributing factors, but we won't go into that.
The next is problem is physiologic, aka worried about becoming too "fat" if they bulk, or too skinny of they cut.
What happens is people will stay in between for years and years bouncing in between never getting the results they should because of what they see in the mirror, sabotaging their own results.
OP, you need to have a achievable goal and stick to it. It would be best if you failed rather than stayed in the middle.
At this moment you're doing great, you just need to get rid of some body fat. I would start doing lifting and cardio, keep the calories going at Maintenance or slightly below (we're talking about 150 calories tops), people will say you can't burn fat and build muscle, let them tell you that. People in the Military do it all the time, everyone pretty much eats the same amount of food and are different body types, there is no counting calories, yet men and woman will come out ripped and have gained muscle and lost fat.
People who do programs like P90x and lift heavy weights like Chris Prat also have some really amazing results.
So, in my opinion you need a good cardio program and a moderate weight lifting program. You can do it!
Great results so far, keep going!
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Honestly of you want to bulk you could bulk. Yeah you may have some fat on you that you could cut, but you also could use some weight on you.
My ADVICE: is to bulk on a high carb/lower fat diet, but work out more often with more intensity. 15-20 reps with little rest. Never take 2 consecutive days off. You need to be getting to the point to where you're sweating lifting weights as of you were running. That's how you will keep fat lower while still being able to bulk. It's going to be hard, but if you want it that's how you get it.0 -
Honestly of you want to bulk you could bulk. Yeah you may have some fat on you that you could cut, but you also could use some weight on you.
My ADVICE: is to bulk on a high carb/lower fat diet, but work out more often with more intensity. 15-20 reps with little rest. Never take 2 consecutive days off. You need to be getting to the point to where you're sweating lifting weights as of you were running. That's how you will keep fat lower while still being able to bulk. It's going to be hard, but if you want it that's how you get it.
If OP bulks at his current body fat % most of his gains are going to be fat and not muscle, and he is just going to have to cut even more when finishing his bulk.
Also, where are you getting 15-20 reps with minimal rest??0 -
Honestly of you want to bulk you could bulk. Yeah you may have some fat on you that you could cut, but you also could use some weight on you.
My ADVICE: is to bulk on a high carb/lower fat diet, but work out more often with more intensity. 15-20 reps with little rest. Never take 2 consecutive days off. You need to be getting to the point to where you're sweating lifting weights as of you were running. That's how you will keep fat lower while still being able to bulk. It's going to be hard, but if you want it that's how you get it.
If OP bulks at his current body fat % most of his gains are going to be fat and not muscle, and he is just going to have to cut even more when finishing his bulk.
Also, where are you getting 15-20 reps with minimal rest??
To get a better pump by getting more blood into the muscle. But also by that point the workout becomes cardiovascular so it will help him burn fat.0 -
Honestly of you want to bulk you could bulk. Yeah you may have some fat on you that you could cut, but you also could use some weight on you.
My ADVICE: is to bulk on a high carb/lower fat diet, but work out more often with more intensity. 15-20 reps with little rest. Never take 2 consecutive days off. You need to be getting to the point to where you're sweating lifting weights as of you were running. That's how you will keep fat lower while still being able to bulk. It's going to be hard, but if you want it that's how you get it.
If OP bulks at his current body fat % most of his gains are going to be fat and not muscle, and he is just going to have to cut even more when finishing his bulk.
Also, where are you getting 15-20 reps with minimal rest??
To get a better pump by getting more blood into the muscle. But also by that point the workout becomes cardiovascular so it will help him burn fat.
Cardio doesn't burn fat... a calorie deficit does. So even if you do a ton of cardio and in a surplus, you will gain fat still.
And there is no benefit from doing 15-20 reps. High reps = muscle endurance, Low reps = strength power. And generally hypertrophy is 8-15 which is generally considered the sweet spot. One should have a program that addresses both power and hypertrophy.
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Honestly of you want to bulk you could bulk. Yeah you may have some fat on you that you could cut, but you also could use some weight on you.
My ADVICE: is to bulk on a high carb/lower fat diet, but work out more often with more intensity. 15-20 reps with little rest. Never take 2 consecutive days off. You need to be getting to the point to where you're sweating lifting weights as of you were running. That's how you will keep fat lower while still being able to bulk. It's going to be hard, but if you want it that's how you get it.
If OP bulks at his current body fat % most of his gains are going to be fat and not muscle, and he is just going to have to cut even more when finishing his bulk.
Also, where are you getting 15-20 reps with minimal rest??
To get a better pump by getting more blood into the muscle. But also by that point the workout becomes cardiovascular so it will help him burn fat.
if OP is in a surplus then he is still going to add fat ...unless you are recommending cardio to the point that is going to put him back into a deficit, which would seem to negate the need for a bulk ...?0 -
Honestly of you want to bulk you could bulk. Yeah you may have some fat on you that you could cut, but you also could use some weight on you.
My ADVICE: is to bulk on a high carb/lower fat diet, but work out more often with more intensity. 15-20 reps with little rest. Never take 2 consecutive days off. You need to be getting to the point to where you're sweating lifting weights as of you were running. That's how you will keep fat lower while still being able to bulk. It's going to be hard, but if you want it that's how you get it.
If OP bulks at his current body fat % most of his gains are going to be fat and not muscle, and he is just going to have to cut even more when finishing his bulk.
Also, where are you getting 15-20 reps with minimal rest??
To get a better pump by getting more blood into the muscle. But also by that point the workout becomes cardiovascular so it will help him burn fat.
Cardio doesn't burn fat... a calorie deficit does. So even if you do a ton of cardio and in a surplus, you will gain fat still.
And there is no benefit from doing 15-20 reps. High reps = muscle endurance, Low reps = strength power. And generally hypertrophy is 8-15 which is generally considered the sweet spot. One should have a program that addresses both power and hypertrophy.
this0 -
Cardio does help you burn fat. We can get into the specifics or whatever, but how are you going to say cardio doesn't help burn fat?
As far as rep ranges yeah I can agree with lower reps for strength and power, but more tension with higher reps seems to have worked best for me out of anything.0 -
Cardio does help you burn fat. We can get into the specifics or whatever, but how are you going to say cardio doesn't help burn fat?
As far as rep ranges yeah I can agree with lower reps for strength and power, but more tension with higher reps seems to have worked best for me out of anything.
If cardio actually burned fat, then I wouldn't know a crap ton of marathon runners who gain weight during training seasons. Cardio can be an enabler to create a deficit or as an enabler to eat more calories. But no, cardio in and by itself, does NOT burn fat. Overall fat loss or gain is controlled by the amount of calories you eat. The composition of that loss or gain is based on your training. During weight loss, weight training = more fat loss, less muscle loss; during weight gain, weight training = more muscle growth/development, less fat gains.0 -
Well when I train now, I stick with 5x5 on compound movements and 8-12 reps on isolation. I also do about 15-20 minutes of cardio at the end of my workouts (except for after leg day).
How much lower do you guys think I need to cut? My concern is that I'm gonna have to go down to 130 or maybe even lower to see a real difference. Even then, I'm gonna have to go on an extended cut after a lean bulk. It was this reason that I was considering maybe eating around maintenance and slightly over now and then starting a cut around February or March. I know that my nutrient partitioning won't be optimal now but I'm not sure how much worse it will be. However, if everyone believes it will be worse to the point of me not making good progress I will definitely cut first0 -
If cardio actually burned fat, then I wouldn't know a crap ton of marathon runners who gain weight during training seasons. Cardio can be an enabler to create a deficit or as an enabler to eat more calories. But no, cardio in and by itself, does NOT burn fat. Overall fat loss or gain is controlled by the amount of calories you eat. The composition of that loss or gain is based on your training. During weight loss, weight training = more fat loss, less muscle loss; during weight gain, weight training = more muscle growth/development, less fat gains.
Bingo0 -
I agree with the notion that it's all about being in a deficit/surplus in regards to rep ranges and cardio though0
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Cardio does help you burn fat. We can get into the specifics or whatever, but how are you going to say cardio doesn't help burn fat?
As far as rep ranges yeah I can agree with lower reps for strength and power, but more tension with higher reps seems to have worked best for me out of anything.
If cardio actually burned fat, then I wouldn't know a crap ton of marathon runners who gain weight during training seasons. Cardio can be an enabler to create a deficit or as an enabler to eat more calories. But no, cardio in and by itself, does NOT burn fat. Overall fat loss or gain is controlled by the amount of calories you eat. The composition of that loss or gain is based on your training. During weight loss, weight training = more fat loss, less muscle loss; during weight gain, weight training = more muscle growth/development, less fat gains.
I think you confuse weight loss vs fat loss/prevention.0 -
Well when I train now, I stick with 5x5 on compound movements and 8-12 reps on isolation. I also do about 15-20 minutes of cardio at the end of my workouts (except for after leg day).
How much lower do you guys think I need to cut? My concern is that I'm gonna have to go down to 130 or maybe even lower to see a real difference. Even then, I'm gonna have to go on an extended cut after a lean bulk. It was this reason that I was considering maybe eating around maintenance and slightly over now and then starting a cut around February or March. I know that my nutrient partitioning won't be optimal now but I'm not sure how much worse it will be. However, if everyone believes it will be worse to the point of me not making good progress I will definitely cut first
Overall, I believe it's a long term issue as @njd1979 mentioned. By bulking now, you are going to add more fat than muscle (potentially). This means, post bulk, you may be stuck in a similar situation you were in a few months ago and it will be like starting all over (been there and it's not fun).
You probably need to lose another 7-10 lbs prior to maintenance/bulking. If you dont mind the time frame, you can work on trying to recomp, but @ 18-20% body fat, I don't think that is even optimal (anecdotally, I did that for 6 months and didn't see much benefit).0 -
Cardio does help you burn fat. We can get into the specifics or whatever, but how are you going to say cardio doesn't help burn fat?
As far as rep ranges yeah I can agree with lower reps for strength and power, but more tension with higher reps seems to have worked best for me out of anything.
If cardio actually burned fat, then I wouldn't know a crap ton of marathon runners who gain weight during training seasons. Cardio can be an enabler to create a deficit or as an enabler to eat more calories. But no, cardio in and by itself, does NOT burn fat. Overall fat loss or gain is controlled by the amount of calories you eat. The composition of that loss or gain is based on your training. During weight loss, weight training = more fat loss, less muscle loss; during weight gain, weight training = more muscle growth/development, less fat gains.
I think you confuse weight loss vs fat loss/prevention.
And that is your opinion. If you want to test your theory, go eat 8000 calories and do only cardio. See how much fat you lose.
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Cardio does help you burn fat. We can get into the specifics or whatever, but how are you going to say cardio doesn't help burn fat?
As far as rep ranges yeah I can agree with lower reps for strength and power, but more tension with higher reps seems to have worked best for me out of anything.
If cardio actually burned fat, then I wouldn't know a crap ton of marathon runners who gain weight during training seasons. Cardio can be an enabler to create a deficit or as an enabler to eat more calories. But no, cardio in and by itself, does NOT burn fat. Overall fat loss or gain is controlled by the amount of calories you eat. The composition of that loss or gain is based on your training. During weight loss, weight training = more fat loss, less muscle loss; during weight gain, weight training = more muscle growth/development, less fat gains.
I think you confuse weight loss vs fat loss/prevention.
If you eat 3000 cals and burn 500 from cardio would be the same as eating 2500 and doing no cardio when it comes to fat/weight loss/gain! Now if you only eat the 2500 and burn 500, then cardio "helps you burn fat", but you could have just eaten 2000 and skipped the cardio for the same results (though with the cardio you would be in better cardiovascular shape and have better endurance) It comes down to fitness goals if you break it down that way0 -
Cardio does help you burn fat. We can get into the specifics or whatever, but how are you going to say cardio doesn't help burn fat?
As far as rep ranges yeah I can agree with lower reps for strength and power, but more tension with higher reps seems to have worked best for me out of anything.
If cardio actually burned fat, then I wouldn't know a crap ton of marathon runners who gain weight during training seasons. Cardio can be an enabler to create a deficit or as an enabler to eat more calories. But no, cardio in and by itself, does NOT burn fat. Overall fat loss or gain is controlled by the amount of calories you eat. The composition of that loss or gain is based on your training. During weight loss, weight training = more fat loss, less muscle loss; during weight gain, weight training = more muscle growth/development, less fat gains.
I think you confuse weight loss vs fat loss/prevention.
If you eat 3000 cals and burn 500 from cardio would be the same as eating 2500 and doing no cardio when it comes to fat/weight loss/gain! Now if you only eat the 2500 and burn 500, then cardio "helps you burn fat", but you could have just eaten 2000 and skipped the cardio for the same results (though with the cardio you would be in better cardiovascular shape and have better endurance) It comes down to fitness goals if you break it down that way
Yeah I can see how that would work. I think the whole being in better cardiovascular shape could also have a snowball effect because the body would function better as a whole.0 -
Well when I train now, I stick with 5x5 on compound movements and 8-12 reps on isolation. I also do about 15-20 minutes of cardio at the end of my workouts (except for after leg day).
How much lower do you guys think I need to cut? My concern is that I'm gonna have to go down to 130 or maybe even lower to see a real difference. Even then, I'm gonna have to go on an extended cut after a lean bulk. It was this reason that I was considering maybe eating around maintenance and slightly over now and then starting a cut around February or March. I know that my nutrient partitioning won't be optimal now but I'm not sure how much worse it will be. However, if everyone believes it will be worse to the point of me not making good progress I will definitely cut first
Your training approach is pretty solid honestly. You just need to lock in the diet and then give it the proper time you need to drop the weight at a safe rate. Let's do some math to help you figure out (roughly) how much fat to lose (and how long to plan for a cut):
Current Weight: 142lbs
Body Fat Estimate: 20-25%. I going to worst case is and say 25% to "pad" your cut time a bit in order to account for any roadblocks
Desired Body Fat: 15%
25% * 142lbs = 35.5 lbs body fat
(35.5-x)/(142-x)=15%
> solve for x
> ~16.5lbs
Alot 1 week for every pound of fat you want to lose. Any more and you are risking muscle losses
Your cut should take roughly 4 months0 -
Ok thanks for the advice everyone. I just need to hunker down and get it done. I'll cut at a 500 calorie deficit and reevaluate in a couple months0
This discussion has been closed.
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