High bar Squat vs Low bar Squat
mrnobodi95
Posts: 21 Member
Hey guys, currently doing ICF 5x5 (A variation of Strong Lifts 5x5) and I'm curious if it's alright to do high bar squats. I know the program assumes to do low bar every workout but I much prefer high bar.
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I would imagine so. I did stronglifts and nrolwf with high bar as that's basically what the gym trainer showed me. I tried to ask a trainer about both during a workshop but he said not to worry about one or the other and just do what had been doing. Now I'm doing PHUL and for lower power I still do high bar.
I did do both for a while, since squats were part of every lifting day at the time, and that was interesting. I still lift more with high bar since it's what I've done more but low bar wasn't too bad either.0 -
If you aren't lifting for sport it doesn't really matter which you are doing. Do whichever you prefer, just make sure you are using proper form. You can always switch it up later.0
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Doesn't matter, pick whichever is more comfortable or allows you to move more weight.0
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LolBroScience wrote: »Doesn't matter, pick whichever is more comfortable or allows you to move more weight.
^Yep0 -
nordlead2005 wrote: »If you aren't lifting for sport it doesn't really matter which you are doing. Do whichever you prefer, just make sure you are using proper form. You can always switch it up later.LolBroScience wrote: »Doesn't matter, pick whichever is more comfortable or allows you to move more weight.
Both, pick which works best for you.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »Doesn't matter, pick whichever is more comfortable or allows you to move more weight.
Exactly. Whatever feels better for you.0 -
Low bar puts somewhat more emphasis on the posterior chain (glutes, hamstrings, etc.), high bar somewhat more on anterior chain (quads, etc). I tend to lift low bar simply because, as hard-core mountain biker, I'm already obscenely quad-dominant. Kind of depends on your goals. Heck, if you've got the time to do ICF, you could always mix it up a bit.0
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Low bar puts somewhat more emphasis on the posterior chain (glutes, hamstrings, etc.), high bar somewhat more on anterior chain (quads, etc). I tend to lift low bar simply because, as hard-core mountain biker, I'm already obscenely quad-dominant. Kind of depends on your goals. Heck, if you've got the time to do ICF, you could always mix it up a bit.
There is almost no research that shows high bar squatting recruits less from the posterior chain. It does allow for a shortening of the fulcrum holding weight and allows for heavier loads to be moved, which would use more muscle. That is not the reason you listed. Below is the conclusion powerliftingtowin.com came to when testing and looking at the lifts objectively.
"In sum, low bar is nearly universally superior for powerlifting purposes because it preferentially shifts leverage to the hips, allows for less forward knee travel and thus a shorter range of motion, and it allows you to grind out weights without losing the lift due to an unstable rack position. There are exceptions of course, but they are called exceptions for a reason."
http://www.powerliftingtowin.com/high-bar-vs-low-bar-squats/
If powerlifters could prove the low bar squat recruited the hamstrings better they would never stop talking about it.0 -
Low bar puts somewhat more emphasis on the posterior chain (glutes, hamstrings, etc.), high bar somewhat more on anterior chain (quads, etc). I tend to lift low bar simply because, as hard-core mountain biker, I'm already obscenely quad-dominant. Kind of depends on your goals. Heck, if you've got the time to do ICF, you could always mix it up a bit.
There is almost no research that shows high bar squatting recruits less from the posterior chain. It does allow for a shortening of the fulcrum holding weight and allows for heaved loads to be moved, which would use more muscle, but not for the reason you listed. Below is the conclusion powerliftingtowin.com came to when testing and looking at the lifts objectively.
"In sum, low bar is nearly universally superior for powerlifting purposes because it preferentially shifts leverage to the hips, allows for less forward knee travel and thus a shorter range of motion, and it allows you to grind out weights without losing the lift due to an unstable rack position. There are exceptions of course, but they are called exceptions for a reason."
http://www.powerliftingtowin.com/high-bar-vs-low-bar-squats/
If powerlifters could prove the low bar squat recruited the hamstrings better they would never stop talking about it.
I've always been curious about this! SL uses low bar, but high bar is so much more comfortable. Maybe because of my proportions? But I want a butt so I keep trying low bar...0 -
mrnobodi95 wrote: »Hey guys, currently doing ICF 5x5 (A variation of Strong Lifts 5x5) and I'm curious if it's alright to do high bar squats. I know the program assumes to do low bar every workout but I much prefer high bar.
You should absolutely squat how is most comfortable for you to squat. Don't get caught-up in the BS and minor details of the differences. Yes each has some small differences in muscle recruitment but it's not worth talking about unless you're competing in the squat or even olympic lifting.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »mrnobodi95 wrote: »Hey guys, currently doing ICF 5x5 (A variation of Strong Lifts 5x5) and I'm curious if it's alright to do high bar squats. I know the program assumes to do low bar every workout but I much prefer high bar.
You should absolutely squat how is most comfortable for you to squat. Don't get caught-up in the BS and minor details of the differences. Yes each has some small differences in muscle recruitment but it's not worth talking about unless you're competing in the squat or even olympic lifting.
Exactly and BS stands for bro-science.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »mrnobodi95 wrote: »Hey guys, currently doing ICF 5x5 (A variation of Strong Lifts 5x5) and I'm curious if it's alright to do high bar squats. I know the program assumes to do low bar every workout but I much prefer high bar.
You should absolutely squat how is most comfortable for you to squat. Don't get caught-up in the BS and minor details of the differences. Yes each has some small differences in muscle recruitment but it's not worth talking about unless you're competing in the squat or even olympic lifting.
Exactly and BS stands for bro-science.
I actually meant *kitten* but bro-science is similar enough. LOLI've always been curious about this! SL uses low bar, but high bar is so much more comfortable. Maybe because of my proportions? But I want a butt so I keep trying low bar...
Yeah, how your built very much comes into play in squat-style. Don't worry about developing the glutes in the high-bar squat; if you're squatting correctly you butt is getting plenty of work. Simply-stated, the glutes manage extension of the hip. When you're squatted down into the hole, to get back-up requires extension of the hips, knees, and even your calves fire as well. Just make sure you're sitting back into the squat correctly and you'll be fine.
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Low bar puts somewhat more emphasis on the posterior chain (glutes, hamstrings, etc.), high bar somewhat more on anterior chain (quads, etc). I tend to lift low bar simply because, as hard-core mountain biker, I'm already obscenely quad-dominant. Kind of depends on your goals. Heck, if you've got the time to do ICF, you could always mix it up a bit.
Okay, maybe there is no evidence. But I found this video interesting and persuasive nonetheless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQuCi2h_kNI 0 -
While a good video it uses a bit of the same bro science. The only way to shorten a muscle is via contraction or surgery. The distal and proximal insertions points are always the same distance apart.0
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Fair enough. I still think it has some common sense in it that is informative.0
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The video makes some valid points though I'm vary curious as to how he defines "neglects" because it could be misconstrued by the unknowing as "doesn't work at all." If you look at his picture, his hips are very much in a flexed position. In order to stand back-up his hips and knees must both extend.
Posterior Chain:
- Glutes: Extend and rotate the hips. Even in the HB Squat, the glutes are very much active as the lifter must extend their hips to stand back up.
- Hamstrings: Involved in hip extension and knee flexion. In this case, those muscles are flexed and eccentrically loaded and then assist in the concentric motion of the exercise through extension of the hip.
How the HB Squat "neglects" the posterior chain is curious to me. Does the LB squat load the glutes and hamstrings better, probably. What the real difference is I couldn't say, not sure any formal studies compare the two or not.0 -
Yea I don't like the phrase neglects in the video either. All squats work both the anterior and posterior chains, the degree of muscle recruitment may vary, but to say it neglects the entire muscle group would a very bold statement. As you said it is obviously not what the video ment, but if you take it at face value it can sound that way.
I still believe the recruitment of muscle fiber, if there is a difference, is due to either: collapsing at the bottom of the high bar squat and losing hamstring tension, or the increased load that can be carried in the low bar squat due to decreased lever length and range of motion.
But there is the rub, if one develops coordination and CNS pathways over a longer range of motion why would you train a shorter range, unless you are a powerlifters or anatomically unable to?0 -
Umm, ok I'll go out in a limb here and assume that there is no research regarding high bar vs low bar squats when it comes to which style recruits more of the posterior chain, but how about just using common sense of basic physics of lever systems? The position of the bar will alter the length of the lever arm of the resistive force which will place more emphasis on either the glutes/ hamstrings during a low bar squat, and the quads on a high bar squat. Fulcrums do not shorten, lever arms do. If we're trying to educate people can we please get the language correct? This is ridiculous. And there EMG studies observing deferences in muscle activation for high vs low bar squats. As you said, not a lot, but let's not throw those out the window. Let people read em and come to their own conclusions.0
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Hey thanks for all the replies guys! I'll definitely do what's more comfortable which is high bar for me.0
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We're liking dealing with general population on here. My advice, place the bar where you can get the squat done. No need to major in the minors.
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You are correct, I did use the wrong language to describe the lever/fulcrum system the body become during the squat.
But, it is not intuitive to me that the low or high bar squat places more emphasis on either posterior or anterior chain with equal weight. There is little in the EMG studies that indicates that muscle activation as more that a margin of error difference between the two as far as hamstrings are concerned. There is a much deeper body of work supporting stance has more of an effect on muscle recruitment if you want to focus on your gastrocnemius, but again not hamstrings.
http://www.professoralexandrerocha.com.br/biblioteca/2013_9_22_10_39_32_.pdf
But all of the information is a distraction to a beginning lifter that is just getting started. Any squat is better than no squat.0 -
I think another thing that I was curious about was that a lot of beginner programs suggest squats 3 times a week (SL, SS, ICF), since the squat is the supposed king of all exercises. Most of these programs refer to the Low-bar squat, which is why I was wondering whether the high-bar squat is still a "king exercise" compared to the low-bar even though it doesn't use the posterior chain.0
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mrnobodi95 wrote: »I think another thing that I was curious about was that a lot of beginner programs suggest squats 3 times a week (SL, SS, ICF), since the squat is the supposed king of all exercises. Most of these programs refer to the Low-bar squat, which is why I was wondering whether the high-bar squat is still a "king exercise" compared to the low-bar even though it doesn't use the posterior chain.
Whoa -- don't ever thing highbar squat "doesn't use the posterior chain" -- it's still a very effective whole body lift (including the posterior chain). At *most*, it uses the posterior chain somewhat less than a lowbar squat (and evidently, from the shitstorm my comment set off, there's a lot of controversy around that).0 -
Keeping it simple and using terms that are used in the study of Kiniesiology which is the study of human movement; if your hips Flex then the counter to that is that they must extend. If the hips extend your glutes and hamstrings are recruited. Bar position could dictate how much of a stimulus each receives but regardless of bar-position, those muscles must be recruited; period. I would be interested in reading any EMG studies that compare the two to see if there are significant differences, unfortunately I can't get into my school's library this morning. LOL0
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Shouldn't be an issue0
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LolBroScience wrote: »Doesn't matter, pick whichever is more comfortable or allows you to move more weight.
this.
I do high bar- I feel like my thoracic is under a weird compression under low bar.
From what I understand many people can move a higher percentage of weight on low bar- but I just have never gotten used to it- but I should- My form is a high/low hybrid- I'm not really in one camp or the other.0
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