Wheat Belly?
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I can site study after study where a group with higher calorie count with lower carbs has resulted in greater weight loss than a group with lower calorie count and higher carbs.
The CICO people typically reject that argument rather than investigate it.0 -
The reason that your friend lost so much weight is because of the calorie deficit. Cutting out a food group without replacing those calories by bumping up another food group leads to a calorie deficit, which leads to weight loss.
...... or not. Low carb has been around since before the calorie unit was even implemented.MYTH #1: YOU MUST COUNT CALORIES TO LOSE WEIGHT
Back in the 1800s there was a very fat man named William Banting who thought he was going deaf.
Banting was a prosperous 66-year-old London undertaker who was so rotund he couldn’t tie his own shoelaces. At 5’5” and 202 pounds (!) he was so fat he had to walk downstairs backwards. In August 1862 Banting took himself to see a doctor named William Harvey, who promptly figured out that Banting’s problem wasn’t deafness; it was obesity.
His fat was pressing on his inner ear!
Dr. Harvey took a look at Banting’s diet, which was heavily laden with bread, sugar, pastries and beer, and put him on a diet of meat. Instead of starting the day with sugared tea and toast, Banting now started the day with 5 or 6 ounces of beef, mutton, kidneys, bacon or broiled fish. He stopped eating potatoes and pastry. He still consumed some carbs, but only a fraction of the amount he had been consuming previously.
The calorie as a unit of measurement hadn’t been invented yet, but we know now that on the meat-centered diet Banting was consuming close to 2800 calories, which is a lot.
He lost over 50 pounds in 6 months.
Postscript: He kept the weight off and lived comfortably till the age of 81.
Do you think scientific principals exist even before we have developed the necessary understanding or vocabulary to discuss them?
Banting lost weight because he consumed fewer calories than he was burning. That there wasn't a way to describe that at the time doesn't change anything, just like the fact that people died when they fell off cliffs before we understood gravity doesn't invalidate gravity.0 -
I can site study after study where a group with higher calorie count with lower carbs has resulted in greater weight loss than a group with lower calorie count and higher carbs.
The CICO people typically reject that argument rather than investigate it.
Cite away. Don't let us uneducated lot stop you.0 -
The reason that your friend lost so much weight is because of the calorie deficit. Cutting out a food group without replacing those calories by bumping up another food group leads to a calorie deficit, which leads to weight loss.
...... or not. Low carb has been around since before the calorie unit was even implemented.MYTH #1: YOU MUST COUNT CALORIES TO LOSE WEIGHT
Back in the 1800s there was a very fat man named William Banting who thought he was going deaf.
Banting was a prosperous 66-year-old London undertaker who was so rotund he couldn’t tie his own shoelaces. At 5’5” and 202 pounds (!) he was so fat he had to walk downstairs backwards. In August 1862 Banting took himself to see a doctor named William Harvey, who promptly figured out that Banting’s problem wasn’t deafness; it was obesity.
His fat was pressing on his inner ear!
Dr. Harvey took a look at Banting’s diet, which was heavily laden with bread, sugar, pastries and beer, and put him on a diet of meat. Instead of starting the day with sugared tea and toast, Banting now started the day with 5 or 6 ounces of beef, mutton, kidneys, bacon or broiled fish. He stopped eating potatoes and pastry. He still consumed some carbs, but only a fraction of the amount he had been consuming previously.
The calorie as a unit of measurement hadn’t been invented yet, but we know now that on the meat-centered diet Banting was consuming close to 2800 calories, which is a lot.
He lost over 50 pounds in 6 months.
Postscript: He kept the weight off and lived comfortably till the age of 81.
Cute story
The calorie was first defined in the early 1800s when William Banting was 27
https://archive.org/details/letteroncorpulen00bant
Page 18 is pretty cool to read ..someone should enter it into MFP to see the calorie count
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The reason that your friend lost so much weight is because of the calorie deficit. Cutting out a food group without replacing those calories by bumping up another food group leads to a calorie deficit, which leads to weight loss.
...... or not. Low carb has been around since before the calorie unit was even implemented.MYTH #1: YOU MUST COUNT CALORIES TO LOSE WEIGHT
Back in the 1800s there was a very fat man named William Banting who thought he was going deaf.
Banting was a prosperous 66-year-old London undertaker who was so rotund he couldn’t tie his own shoelaces. At 5’5” and 202 pounds (!) he was so fat he had to walk downstairs backwards. In August 1862 Banting took himself to see a doctor named William Harvey, who promptly figured out that Banting’s problem wasn’t deafness; it was obesity.
His fat was pressing on his inner ear!
Dr. Harvey took a look at Banting’s diet, which was heavily laden with bread, sugar, pastries and beer, and put him on a diet of meat. Instead of starting the day with sugared tea and toast, Banting now started the day with 5 or 6 ounces of beef, mutton, kidneys, bacon or broiled fish. He stopped eating potatoes and pastry. He still consumed some carbs, but only a fraction of the amount he had been consuming previously.
The calorie as a unit of measurement hadn’t been invented yet, but we know now that on the meat-centered diet Banting was consuming close to 2800 calories, which is a lot.
He lost over 50 pounds in 6 months.
Postscript: He kept the weight off and lived comfortably till the age of 81.
Erm. Just because someone doesn't know they are doing something doesn't mean they aren't doing it. Little children running and playing don't know that they are burning calories, but they are still doing that. People who are eating in a calorie deficit but not aware that they are in a deficit are still going to lose weight.
Unless someone traveled back in time and weighed each serving of meat that Banting consumed, there ins't any way that someone can know how many calories he was consuming. If he lost weight, he was eating in a deficit. That's how the science of weight loss works.
Low carb is just one way to eat in a calorie deficit.0 -
The reason that your friend lost so much weight is because of the calorie deficit. Cutting out a food group without replacing those calories by bumping up another food group leads to a calorie deficit, which leads to weight loss.
...... or not. Low carb has been around since before the calorie unit was even implemented.MYTH #1: YOU MUST COUNT CALORIES TO LOSE WEIGHT
Back in the 1800s there was a very fat man named William Banting who thought he was going deaf.
Banting was a prosperous 66-year-old London undertaker who was so rotund he couldn’t tie his own shoelaces. At 5’5” and 202 pounds (!) he was so fat he had to walk downstairs backwards. In August 1862 Banting took himself to see a doctor named William Harvey, who promptly figured out that Banting’s problem wasn’t deafness; it was obesity.
His fat was pressing on his inner ear!
Dr. Harvey took a look at Banting’s diet, which was heavily laden with bread, sugar, pastries and beer, and put him on a diet of meat. Instead of starting the day with sugared tea and toast, Banting now started the day with 5 or 6 ounces of beef, mutton, kidneys, bacon or broiled fish. He stopped eating potatoes and pastry. He still consumed some carbs, but only a fraction of the amount he had been consuming previously.
The calorie as a unit of measurement hadn’t been invented yet, but we know now that on the meat-centered diet Banting was consuming close to 2800 calories, which is a lot.
He lost over 50 pounds in 6 months.
Postscript: He kept the weight off and lived comfortably till the age of 81.
That's kind of like saying gravity didn't exist until the apple fell on Newton's head.
Just because someone hadn't developed the term of calorie doesn't mean the energy balance didn't exist.0 -
I don't want to spend the time.VintageFeline wrote: »Cite away. Don't let us uneducated lot stop you.
..... same as others.
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I don't want to spend the time.VintageFeline wrote: »Cite away. Don't let us uneducated lot stop you.
..... same as others.
If you have the sources already, it will take as much time to share them as it will take to share (inaccurate) anecdotes about people supposedly losing weight before calories existed. You're on here, posting, anyway. What time are you saving by keeping your sources to yourself?0 -
Sondike, S.B., Copperman, N., and M.S. Jacobsen. 2003. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors in overweight adolescents. Journal of Pediatric Medicine. 142(3): 253–8Fast-forward to 2002, when an overweight pediatrician named Stephen Sondike finally decided to do something about his weight. Bucking conventional medical wisdom and risking the disapproval of his conservative colleagues, Sondike tried a high-protein, high-fat, low-carb diet much like the one Banting tried 150 years earlier.
The weight melted off.
Sondike ran every possible blood test on himself and found—quite contrary to the expectations of his colleagues—that everything had improved.
Encouraged, he decided to design a study to test scientifically what he had observed in his own life. He took a group of overweight adolescent boys and assigned them to one of two dietary conditions. Group one was put on the traditional low-fat diet. Group two went on a low-carb diet much like the one that worked for Sondike.
Here’s what happened …
After 12 weeks, the group eating the conventional low-fat diet had lost an average of 8.5 pounds. However, the group eating the low-carb diet lost 19 pounds!
Moreover, the low-fat group had consumed an average of 1100 calories day while the low-carb group had consumed 1803.
I work with scientific models designed for animal nutrition on a daily basis. I can run a diet through a biological model that mimics a human and see the results. That experience as well as my own application of this low carb approach on my own lifestyle prove out the approach.
This has been around for a long, long time.0 -
Sondike, S.B., Copperman, N., and M.S. Jacobsen. 2003. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors in overweight adolescents. Journal of Pediatric Medicine. 142(3): 253–8Fast-forward to 2002, when an overweight pediatrician named Stephen Sondike finally decided to do something about his weight. Bucking conventional medical wisdom and risking the disapproval of his conservative colleagues, Sondike tried a high-protein, high-fat, low-carb diet much like the one Banting tried 150 years earlier.
The weight melted off.
Sondike ran every possible blood test on himself and found—quite contrary to the expectations of his colleagues—that everything had improved.
Encouraged, he decided to design a study to test scientifically what he had observed in his own life. He took a group of overweight adolescent boys and assigned them to one of two dietary conditions. Group one was put on the traditional low-fat diet. Group two went on a low-carb diet much like the one that worked for Sondike.
Here’s what happened …
After 12 weeks, the group eating the conventional low-fat diet had lost an average of 8.5 pounds. However, the group eating the low-carb diet lost 19 pounds!
Moreover, the low-fat group had consumed an average of 1100 calories day while the low-carb group had consumed 1803.
I work with scientific models designed for animal nutrition on a daily basis. I can run a diet through a biological model that mimics a human and see the results. That experience as well as my own application of this low carb approach on my own lifestyle prove out the approach.
This has been around for a long, long time.
Were these calorie counts self-reported?0 -
I included references. Your questions can be answered there.janejellyroll wrote: »Were these calorie counts self-reported?
0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Sondike, S.B., Copperman, N., and M.S. Jacobsen. 2003. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors in overweight adolescents. Journal of Pediatric Medicine. 142(3): 253–8Fast-forward to 2002, when an overweight pediatrician named Stephen Sondike finally decided to do something about his weight. Bucking conventional medical wisdom and risking the disapproval of his conservative colleagues, Sondike tried a high-protein, high-fat, low-carb diet much like the one Banting tried 150 years earlier.
The weight melted off.
Sondike ran every possible blood test on himself and found—quite contrary to the expectations of his colleagues—that everything had improved.
Encouraged, he decided to design a study to test scientifically what he had observed in his own life. He took a group of overweight adolescent boys and assigned them to one of two dietary conditions. Group one was put on the traditional low-fat diet. Group two went on a low-carb diet much like the one that worked for Sondike.
Here’s what happened …
After 12 weeks, the group eating the conventional low-fat diet had lost an average of 8.5 pounds. However, the group eating the low-carb diet lost 19 pounds!
Moreover, the low-fat group had consumed an average of 1100 calories day while the low-carb group had consumed 1803.
I work with scientific models designed for animal nutrition on a daily basis. I can run a diet through a biological model that mimics a human and see the results. That experience as well as my own application of this low carb approach on my own lifestyle prove out the approach.
This has been around for a long, long time.
Were these calorie counts self-reported?
The study was of 30 participants, many of whom were adolescents, and it was comparing low carb (less than 20g per day) to low fat intake (30% cal or less from fat). It wasn't low carb compared to a normal diet, carbs were not counted for the low fat group as far as I can tell, and there was a difference of five pounds in the weight loss between the two groups. i can't find the link on the page to the full study, this appears only to be a summary.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/126403710 -
I included references. Your questions can be answered there.janejellyroll wrote: »Were these calorie counts self-reported?
Your text seems to be from "The Fat Burning Blueprint." Do you have access to the study itself or are you citing the book? I can't find a link to anything but the abstract on Google. If you have access to the full study, please provide it. If you're just providing information from "The Fat Burning Blueprint," please make that clear.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Sondike, S.B., Copperman, N., and M.S. Jacobsen. 2003. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors in overweight adolescents. Journal of Pediatric Medicine. 142(3): 253–8Fast-forward to 2002, when an overweight pediatrician named Stephen Sondike finally decided to do something about his weight. Bucking conventional medical wisdom and risking the disapproval of his conservative colleagues, Sondike tried a high-protein, high-fat, low-carb diet much like the one Banting tried 150 years earlier.
The weight melted off.
Sondike ran every possible blood test on himself and found—quite contrary to the expectations of his colleagues—that everything had improved.
Encouraged, he decided to design a study to test scientifically what he had observed in his own life. He took a group of overweight adolescent boys and assigned them to one of two dietary conditions. Group one was put on the traditional low-fat diet. Group two went on a low-carb diet much like the one that worked for Sondike.
Here’s what happened …
After 12 weeks, the group eating the conventional low-fat diet had lost an average of 8.5 pounds. However, the group eating the low-carb diet lost 19 pounds!
Moreover, the low-fat group had consumed an average of 1100 calories day while the low-carb group had consumed 1803.
I work with scientific models designed for animal nutrition on a daily basis. I can run a diet through a biological model that mimics a human and see the results. That experience as well as my own application of this low carb approach on my own lifestyle prove out the approach.
This has been around for a long, long time.
Were these calorie counts self-reported?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12640371
"METHODS: Random, nonblinded assignment of participants referred for weight management. The study group (LC) (n = 16) was instructed to consume <20 g of carbohydrate per day for 2 weeks, then <40 g/day for 10 weeks, and to eat LC foods according to hunger. The control group (LF) (n = 14) was instructed to consume <30% of energy from fat. Diet composition and weight were monitored and recorded every 2 weeks. Serum lipid profiles were obtained at the start of the study and after 12 weeks."
The bolded is a pretty significant point. There is no mention of how much more one group "experienced hunger" vs. the other group.0 -
CoffeeNCardio wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Sondike, S.B., Copperman, N., and M.S. Jacobsen. 2003. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors in overweight adolescents. Journal of Pediatric Medicine. 142(3): 253–8Fast-forward to 2002, when an overweight pediatrician named Stephen Sondike finally decided to do something about his weight. Bucking conventional medical wisdom and risking the disapproval of his conservative colleagues, Sondike tried a high-protein, high-fat, low-carb diet much like the one Banting tried 150 years earlier.
The weight melted off.
Sondike ran every possible blood test on himself and found—quite contrary to the expectations of his colleagues—that everything had improved.
Encouraged, he decided to design a study to test scientifically what he had observed in his own life. He took a group of overweight adolescent boys and assigned them to one of two dietary conditions. Group one was put on the traditional low-fat diet. Group two went on a low-carb diet much like the one that worked for Sondike.
Here’s what happened …
After 12 weeks, the group eating the conventional low-fat diet had lost an average of 8.5 pounds. However, the group eating the low-carb diet lost 19 pounds!
Moreover, the low-fat group had consumed an average of 1100 calories day while the low-carb group had consumed 1803.
I work with scientific models designed for animal nutrition on a daily basis. I can run a diet through a biological model that mimics a human and see the results. That experience as well as my own application of this low carb approach on my own lifestyle prove out the approach.
This has been around for a long, long time.
Were these calorie counts self-reported?
The study was of 30 participants, many of whom were adolescents, and it was comparing low carb (less than 20g per day) to low fat intake (30% cal or less from fat). It wasn't low carb compared to a normal diet, carbs were not counted for the low fat group as far as I can tell, and there was a difference of five pounds in the weight loss between the two groups. i can't find the link on the page to the full study, this appears only to be a summary.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12640371
Yeah, all I could find was the abstract. Given the length of the study, I'm thinking that these calorie counts were self-reported, but I'm not sure.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Sondike, S.B., Copperman, N., and M.S. Jacobsen. 2003. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors in overweight adolescents. Journal of Pediatric Medicine. 142(3): 253–8Fast-forward to 2002, when an overweight pediatrician named Stephen Sondike finally decided to do something about his weight. Bucking conventional medical wisdom and risking the disapproval of his conservative colleagues, Sondike tried a high-protein, high-fat, low-carb diet much like the one Banting tried 150 years earlier.
The weight melted off.
Sondike ran every possible blood test on himself and found—quite contrary to the expectations of his colleagues—that everything had improved.
Encouraged, he decided to design a study to test scientifically what he had observed in his own life. He took a group of overweight adolescent boys and assigned them to one of two dietary conditions. Group one was put on the traditional low-fat diet. Group two went on a low-carb diet much like the one that worked for Sondike.
Here’s what happened …
After 12 weeks, the group eating the conventional low-fat diet had lost an average of 8.5 pounds. However, the group eating the low-carb diet lost 19 pounds!
Moreover, the low-fat group had consumed an average of 1100 calories day while the low-carb group had consumed 1803.
I work with scientific models designed for animal nutrition on a daily basis. I can run a diet through a biological model that mimics a human and see the results. That experience as well as my own application of this low carb approach on my own lifestyle prove out the approach.
This has been around for a long, long time.
Were these calorie counts self-reported?
It seems that they were self-reported, based on the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12640371 . Unfortunately, the article itself is not available for free.
0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Sondike, S.B., Copperman, N., and M.S. Jacobsen. 2003. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors in overweight adolescents. Journal of Pediatric Medicine. 142(3): 253–8Fast-forward to 2002, when an overweight pediatrician named Stephen Sondike finally decided to do something about his weight. Bucking conventional medical wisdom and risking the disapproval of his conservative colleagues, Sondike tried a high-protein, high-fat, low-carb diet much like the one Banting tried 150 years earlier.
The weight melted off.
Sondike ran every possible blood test on himself and found—quite contrary to the expectations of his colleagues—that everything had improved.
Encouraged, he decided to design a study to test scientifically what he had observed in his own life. He took a group of overweight adolescent boys and assigned them to one of two dietary conditions. Group one was put on the traditional low-fat diet. Group two went on a low-carb diet much like the one that worked for Sondike.
Here’s what happened …
After 12 weeks, the group eating the conventional low-fat diet had lost an average of 8.5 pounds. However, the group eating the low-carb diet lost 19 pounds!
Moreover, the low-fat group had consumed an average of 1100 calories day while the low-carb group had consumed 1803.
I work with scientific models designed for animal nutrition on a daily basis. I can run a diet through a biological model that mimics a human and see the results. That experience as well as my own application of this low carb approach on my own lifestyle prove out the approach.
This has been around for a long, long time.
Were these calorie counts self-reported?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12640371
"METHODS: Random, nonblinded assignment of participants referred for weight management. The study group (LC) (n = 16) was instructed to consume <20 g of carbohydrate per day for 2 weeks, then <40 g/day for 10 weeks, and to eat LC foods according to hunger. The control group (LF) (n = 14) was instructed to consume <30% of energy from fat. Diet composition and weight were monitored and recorded every 2 weeks. Serum lipid profiles were obtained at the start of the study and after 12 weeks."
The bolded is a pretty significant point. There is no mention of how much more one group "experienced hunger" vs. the other group.
Other than the instructions to limit fat to 30% of the diet, there's no mention of any calorie goal for the low fat group and it doesn't clarify if they were told to eat to hunger or not. It's hard to know what to make of the 1,100 calorie intake of the group without knowing how they were instructed to eat and how they were measuring their intake.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Sondike, S.B., Copperman, N., and M.S. Jacobsen. 2003. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors in overweight adolescents. Journal of Pediatric Medicine. 142(3): 253–8Fast-forward to 2002, when an overweight pediatrician named Stephen Sondike finally decided to do something about his weight. Bucking conventional medical wisdom and risking the disapproval of his conservative colleagues, Sondike tried a high-protein, high-fat, low-carb diet much like the one Banting tried 150 years earlier.
The weight melted off.
Sondike ran every possible blood test on himself and found—quite contrary to the expectations of his colleagues—that everything had improved.
Encouraged, he decided to design a study to test scientifically what he had observed in his own life. He took a group of overweight adolescent boys and assigned them to one of two dietary conditions. Group one was put on the traditional low-fat diet. Group two went on a low-carb diet much like the one that worked for Sondike.
Here’s what happened …
After 12 weeks, the group eating the conventional low-fat diet had lost an average of 8.5 pounds. However, the group eating the low-carb diet lost 19 pounds!
Moreover, the low-fat group had consumed an average of 1100 calories day while the low-carb group had consumed 1803.
I work with scientific models designed for animal nutrition on a daily basis. I can run a diet through a biological model that mimics a human and see the results. That experience as well as my own application of this low carb approach on my own lifestyle prove out the approach.
This has been around for a long, long time.
Were these calorie counts self-reported?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12640371
"METHODS: Random, nonblinded assignment of participants referred for weight management. The study group (LC) (n = 16) was instructed to consume <20 g of carbohydrate per day for 2 weeks, then <40 g/day for 10 weeks, and to eat LC foods according to hunger. The control group (LF) (n = 14) was instructed to consume <30% of energy from fat. Diet composition and weight were monitored and recorded every 2 weeks. Serum lipid profiles were obtained at the start of the study and after 12 weeks."
The bolded is a pretty significant point. There is no mention of how much more one group "experienced hunger" vs. the other group.
Other than the instructions to limit fat to 30% of the diet, there's no mention of any calorie goal for the low fat group and it doesn't clarify if they were told to eat to hunger or not. It's hard to know what to make of the 1,100 calorie intake of the group without knowing how they were instructed to eat and how they were measuring their intake.
True. It was also not blinded. In a some of the recent studies they have done on non celiacs gluten intolerance, individuals are known to report intolerance when no gluten was consumed, and not report symptoms when gluten was consumed. Non blinded self monitoring of hunger could make a big difference for weight loss.0 -
Since this is a thread already rich in the history of nutrition studies, I thought I'd throw this one out there:
http://www.jbc.org/content/80/2/461.full.pdf
This is probably the first study of very low-carb, high-fat diets, being a population study of the Inuit people that was published in 1928. Based on it, people started baseless rumors that the Inuit had no heart disease or obesity, and that this was due to their very low carb, high fat diet. It wasn't for another 40 or 50 years that somebody actually got around to studying these diseases in that population, and realized that 1. these health claims about the Inuit weren't true, and 2. The Inuit were eating alot more carbs that previously believed, since they ate most of their meat fresh and raw, and so were consuming glycogen as well as fat and protein.0
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