Hedonic Hunger
robingmurphy
Posts: 349 Member
This is a new article at Scientific American I thought was interesting. How much does "hedonic hunger" drive your overeating? It's a big factor for me, and most of the time I just have to keep the high sugar/high fat foods out of my house to avoid it.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-sugar-and-fat-trick-the-brain-into-wanting-more-food/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-sugar-and-fat-trick-the-brain-into-wanting-more-food/
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I'd say it's about 60% of my overeating. Maybe more. Thanks for the link.0
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Rodent studies.
When and if the results are replicated in human studies, I'll give it more credence.
I don't disagree with the underlying premise - that overconsumption of hyper-palatable foods (which tend to be concoctions of sugars and fats) are a major cause of the obesity crisis.
I disagree that we are powerless to change that behavior. Myself, and many others who are and continue to be successful with moderating (or in others' cases, eliminating) such foods indicates that the whole 'our brains get rewired such that we can't help ourselves' hypothesis seems to be merely an excuse.0 -
There are days when I really want to mow down on some chocolate. Like, a giant bag of M&Ms or something. Because I do crave them and want them, but I make the conscious decision that I like a more energetic body and my health better than those M&Ms. So I will eat a small amount and I will make room for them in my day.
We are not powerless. As a matter of fact, how much food we eat is one of the few things in life we have absolute control and power over.0 -
It's an interesting name for this phenomenon. I guess I never thought about it being recognized as a different type of hunger. It's certainly a big factor for me as well.
I try to keep the most tempting things out of sight to keep them out of mind. I've said it before but homemade chocolate cake is a huge "I will eat all of that" food for me. I had a conversation with my husband last night about what dessert we'll have on Christmas. Normally if I make a cake we'll each have a piece at home, I'll have one more piece, and then I'll take it to work to share. My work is going to be closed until after New Year's though so I was trying to figure out how I'd handle it. I'm currently flip flopping between making a half-sized cake or just not making cake and calling the sugar cookies we're making dessert.
I do my best to moderate but desire to go overboard with many foods isn't something that I see going away. My inner fat girl is alive and kicking.0 -
My biggest overeating is socially related. As soon as I get around people I just can't say no to food and most of the time my social activities involve food. If I'm alone I often skips meals.0
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thanks for sharing this. i didnt know they had a name for it0
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juggernaut1974 wrote: »Rodent studies.
When and if the results are replicated in human studies, I'll give it more credence.
I don't disagree with the underlying premise - that overconsumption of hyper-palatable foods (which tend to be concoctions of sugars and fats) are a major cause of the obesity crisis.
I disagree that we are powerless to change that behavior. Myself, and many others who are and continue to be successful with moderating (or in others' cases, eliminating) such foods indicates that the whole 'our brains get rewired such that we can't help ourselves' hypothesis seems to be merely an excuse.
Yes. I get sick of having folks as friends on mfp (they always seem to find their way in) who will look at my diary or a status about delicious food and tell me that I'm a victim of corporations' use of fat, msg and hfcs to enslave humanity. They don't stay on my list for long.
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There are some real pulls for me to eat highly palatable foods. The all things in moderation motto fails for me in the face of pastry, cheese cake and some salty snack foods. I don't know all of the mechanics behind it, so this is an interesting read. I am not abdicating my responsibility, I am just saying there are different levels of attraction. Some foods I can do out of sight and smell, out of mind but some foods have to be out of house to be out of mind. Sometimes just reading about foods in a post can be a pull. To say it is a substance addiction is too strong, but to call it mind over matter, leaves my reality discounted.0
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juggernaut1974 wrote: »Rodent studies.
When and if the results are replicated in human studies, I'll give it more credence.
I don't disagree with the underlying premise - that overconsumption of hyper-palatable foods (which tend to be concoctions of sugars and fats) are a major cause of the obesity crisis.
I disagree that we are powerless to change that behavior. Myself, and many others who are and continue to be successful with moderating (or in others' cases, eliminating) such foods indicates that the whole 'our brains get rewired such that we can't help ourselves' hypothesis seems to be merely an excuse.
I used to overeat. And it would be in hyper palatable foods because I would tell myself I deserved it, or I wanted it, or I just didn't think about it
I changed my mind and started to eat mindfully, had to, I was logging every calorie.
Over time that became my modus operandi...still is...I consciously choose food, what food, whether it will fit in my goals which include will it fill me up, do I really want it, will it fit in my calories
And I no longer need excuses ...well most of the time0 -
That kind of stuff is dubious to me because I still eat the same stuff I used to, but I can do moderation just fine as long as my hormones are in check, so I'm wondering what's the difference between then and now, apart from the fact that now I try not to gorge myself anymore? The food hasn't changed so I'd assume that the effect on my brain hasn't changed either...
Also love the time jump in the publishing date.0 -
Speaking experientally, super hyperpalatable foods and I'll throw in alcohol are the times where my long term wants tend to get overridden by the short term pleasure of JSF.0
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robingmurphy wrote: »This is a new article at Scientific American I thought was interesting. How much does "hedonic hunger" drive your overeating? It's a big factor for me, and most of the time I just have to keep the high sugar/high fat foods out of my house to avoid it.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-sugar-and-fat-trick-the-brain-into-wanting-more-food/
Interesting article, thanks.
Hedonic hunger is much less of an issue for me when I am getting a supply of happy hormones via regular exercise.
I also keep trigger foods out of the house.0 -
juggernaut1974 wrote: »Rodent studies.
When and if the results are replicated in human studies, I'll give it more credence.
I don't disagree with the underlying premise - that overconsumption of hyper-palatable foods (which tend to be concoctions of sugars and fats) are a major cause of the obesity crisis.
I disagree that we are powerless to change that behavior. Myself, and many others who are and continue to be successful with moderating (or in others' cases, eliminating) such foods indicates that the whole 'our brains get rewired such that we can't help ourselves' hypothesis seems to be merely an excuse.
Agree.
While I agree with the premise of hedonic hunger, I disagree with the idea that we can never control it and that it's the food.
I have eaten sweets just for pleasure and I have eaten savory foods like chicken legs in large quantities for the same reason.
When it comes to hormonal responses in humans and how much sway they supposedly hold, I always think back to this one study I read on satiety. In the study, the participants were told that they were drinking a beverage that would form a gel in their stomachs once it was there. It was in liquid form when it was ingested.
Well, it didn't do any such thing.
Now here's where it gets interesting. The study did have a control group... one group was told the liquid would gel, the other wasn't. In the group that was told it would gel, the participants not only reported feeling full from ingesting the liquid, they had the hormonal responses indicating satiety. Yup. They believed they were going to get full from the liquid, and they released the hormone to engender that response.
The control group? They didn't think they'd get full just from drinking liquid and did not have a similar response.
Bottom line? Humans are more complicated than rats with a mind-body connection.0 -
Thank you for the article it was interesting to read and understand more about the concept of hedonic hunger it isn't something with which I am familiar.
I do have one question though and am hoping those with a more understanding than me can help.
I got the impression that the researchers were saying that the response to this impulse diminishes after bariatric surgery.....the brain finally gets the changed messages of satiety from the gut.
So if one was to implement dietary changes and stop triggering the extra release of the reward pathways that lead to over-eating and obesity would that not mean that the person could successfully "re-wire" themselves without surgery......and we all can, given time and right circumstance overcome this hedonic over-eating?
I see where others have posted their successful ways of overcoming their particular triggers ie. limited quantities, not having said trigger in the home etc....So does that mean that now those brains have 're-wired' through hard-work and the willpower which the article said was not going to hold people back from these behaviours?
I felt too that the article was saying that the ONLY successful solutions for this issue are either targeted drug therapy or surgery....but I may have got that wrong.
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HippySkoppy wrote: »Thank you for the article it was interesting to read and understand more about the concept of hedonic hunger it isn't something with which I am familiar.
I do have one question though and am hoping those with a more understanding than me can help.
I got the impression that the researchers were saying that the response to this impulse diminishes after bariatric surgery.....the brain finally gets the changed messages of satiety from the gut.
So if one was to implement dietary changes and stop triggering the extra release of the reward pathways that lead to over-eating and obesity would that not mean that the person could successfully "re-wire" themselves without surgery......and we all can, given time and right circumstance overcome this hedonic over-eating?
I see where others have posted their successful ways of overcoming their particular triggers ie. limited quantities, not having said trigger in the home etc....So does that mean that now those brains have 're-wired' through hard-work and the willpower which the article said was not going to hold people back from these behaviours?
I felt too that the article was saying that the ONLY successful solutions for this issue are either targeted drug therapy or surgery....but I may have got that wrong.
That's not a way of overcoming it, it's a way of avoiding the issue. I mean, obviously, it works as long as you're at home, but that's pretty much it. For me total avoidance is the best way to guarantee that I will binge on it if I have the opportunity to eat what I've been avoiding (let's be fair though, I still 'avoid' a lot of things because they just don't fit easily in my days, in the sense that I might still eat them, but not as much as I'd like, so at things like buffets, for example, it often ends up badly).
But whether there's really a scientific explanation for it or not, the issue isn't really going anywhere, IMO. I mean, I see a lot of people tell others that they'll keep binging or overeating until they figure out WHY they do it, but when the answer is just 'because it's delicious', it's not that easy, lol. I kinda agree with the poster up there that said that sometimes, long term weight loss plans be damned, those cookies/donuts are totally worth it right now.
And yeah, it doesn't happen to everyone either, I know people who are totally satisfied with half a donut and it boggles my mind.0 -
For me, there was nothing new in the article, not even the term "hedonic hunger", but I like that overeating is taken more seriously - not all overeating is because of physiological hunger or even emotional issues - and maybe in the future will be regarded as something else than "gluttony" and "greed"; food that tastes just too good is a real problem for many people. What would be interesting, is to investigate why some people DON'T feel the same attraction to hyperpalatable foods and maintain their weight effortlessly.
What bothers me, is regarding "reengineering the food environment" as "avoidance of the problem". If you don't have any problems with having a taste now and then, you don't have a problem with that. Some of us can handle temptation better when it's not around 24/7, and it doesn't have to be, either. My house, my rules! As someone who has never had problems with overconsumption of alcohol, tobacco etc, I can still emphatize with people who need to avoid those kinds of temptations, and I'd appreciate the same in return
(What's with the postdating? It's not next year yet. It says "By Ferris Jabr on January 1, 2016".
)
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kommodevaran wrote: »For me, there was nothing new in the article, not even the term "hedonic hunger", but I like that overeating is taken more seriously - not all overeating is because of physiological hunger or even emotional issues - and maybe in the future will be regarded as something else than "gluttony" and "greed"; food that tastes just too good is a real problem for many people. What would be interesting, is to investigate why some people DON'T feel the same attraction to hyperpalatable foods and maintain their weight effortlessly.
What bothers me, is regarding "reengineering the food environment" as "avoidance of the problem". If you don't have any problems with having a taste now and then, you don't have a problem with that. Some of us can handle temptation better when it's not around 24/7, and it doesn't have to be, either. My house, my rules! As someone who has never had problems with overconsumption of alcohol, tobacco etc, I can still emphatize with people who need to avoid those kinds of temptations, and I'd appreciate the same in return
(What's with the postdating? It's not next year yet. It says "By Ferris Jabr on January 1, 2016". )
Yeah I was surprised nobody else noticed that, lol.0 -
I assumed that was the magazine issue date and not the article date.
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That was a fun read. Hyper-palatable foods can be challenging to eat with moderation or not eat, depending on one's goals. Thanks for posting it. Not sure I like "hedonic" as a term, but a fun read nonetheless.0
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Drive-by post since I'm on vacation:
I am familiar with the discussions of hedonic hunger and do think it (or a form of it) is responsible for much overeating. But I don't think that has a thing to do with foods being addictive in any real sense. What I think it relates to is that, much as people like to imagine otherwise, humans have no evolutionary reason to eat only when actually in need of food or when feeling hunger already. Evolutionarily and just historically, it would have been an advantage to eat foods that were good for us (often meaning lots of calories -- like meat and fruit, later bread, etc.) when they were available, as there were feast and famine periods, without needing to think "am I really hungry." Also through most history, food hasn't been around all the time, so it wasn't an issue -- you ate at meal time and liked it, and weren't fat (except for the very rich, who might have engaged in extreme excess at meal time).
So it's not surprising that we still (or many of us) want to eat tasty food when it's around, even if we just ate 2 hours ago and have no need of calories. It's just human, not "addiction."
Personally, I really dislike most of the packaged goods that are supposed to be so "addictive." I haven't liked fast food since I was a kid, never liked packaged sweets or chips (with a few exceptions, like ice cream, some girl scout cookies, goldfish -- never things I've overeaten, though). But I am definitely a hedonic eater if I don't work against that -- it's just nice for me that the foods (high cal, high fat and sugar, for sure, but it's not like you need modern science for those, just a good cook or chef or cheesemaker!) I am most attracted to aren't as easily/cheaply available at the grocery store. But they are still easily available in this day.
So I really think the issue is that foods that fit the bill for most are now available so easily -- they are everywhere, they cost very little. Given this, and given that we know the issue is that for many of us we will not be limited in our desire to eat by whether we need the calories or not (IMO that's a fantasy), then people just need to figure out how to deal. For me it's mostly the old fashioned solution of eating at mealtimes only. Our culture may make it okay to eat throughout the day, but that's not a habit that works for me. For others it may relate to what they keep at home or eating only what they bake themselves or whatever. But I find the notion that a Twinkie is somehow more appealing than a homemade baked good or, even more crazy, something nasty like a Lunchable more irresistible than a homemade meal of cheese and meat pretty much a non-starter, and homemade (or made in a high quality restaurant) pasta or pizza is IMO much better than anything store-bought, of course. So to focus on packaged foods being especially tempting due to additives is, IMO, wrong. The issue with those foods is they create availability and the additives made them caloric and cheaply tasty even without the time of making them yourself (because the additives at issue are fat and salt and sugar of some sort, presumably).0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Drive-by post since I'm on vacation:
I am familiar with the discussions of hedonic hunger and do think it (or a form of it) is responsible for much overeating. But I don't think that has a thing to do with foods being addictive in any real sense. What I think it relates to is that, much as people like to imagine otherwise, humans have no evolutionary reason to eat only when actually in need of food or when feeling hunger already. Evolutionarily and just historically, it would have been an advantage to eat foods that were good for us (often meaning lots of calories -- like meat and fruit, later bread, etc.) when they were available, as there were feast and famine periods, without needing to think "am I really hungry." Also through most history, food hasn't been around all the time, so it wasn't an issue -- you ate at meal time and liked it, and weren't fat (except for the very rich, who might have engaged in extreme excess at meal time).
So it's not surprising that we still (or many of us) want to eat tasty food when it's around, even if we just ate 2 hours ago and have no need of calories. It's just human, not "addiction."
Personally, I really dislike most of the packaged goods that are supposed to be so "addictive." I haven't liked fast food since I was a kid, never liked packaged sweets or chips (with a few exceptions, like ice cream, some girl scout cookies, goldfish -- never things I've overeaten, though). But I am definitely a hedonic eater if I don't work against that -- it's just nice for me that the foods (high cal, high fat and sugar, for sure, but it's not like you need modern science for those, just a good cook or chef or cheesemaker!) I am most attracted to aren't as easily/cheaply available at the grocery store. But they are still easily available in this day.
So I really think the issue is that foods that fit the bill for most are now available so easily -- they are everywhere, they cost very little. Given this, and given that we know the issue is that for many of us we will not be limited in our desire to eat by whether we need the calories or not (IMO that's a fantasy), then people just need to figure out how to deal. For me it's mostly the old fashioned solution of eating at mealtimes only. Our culture may make it okay to eat throughout the day, but that's not a habit that works for me. For others it may relate to what they keep at home or eating only what they bake themselves or whatever. But I find the notion that a Twinkie is somehow more appealing than a homemade baked good or, even more crazy, something nasty like a Lunchable more irresistible than a homemade meal of cheese and meat pretty much a non-starter, and homemade (or made in a high quality restaurant) pasta or pizza is IMO much better than anything store-bought, of course. So to focus on packaged foods being especially tempting due to additives is, IMO, wrong. The issue with those foods is they create availability and the additives made them caloric and cheaply tasty even without the time of making them yourself (because the additives at issue are fat and salt and sugar of some sort, presumably).
Nice drive-by
I think the "food addiction" and even the "food additives" and especially "get some willpower" is a bit of a dead end. Palatable food has always been available, but now it is more available than is healthy for most people. When food is available, we will eat, that is a trait that would, in any environment than the one we currently live in, improve health and ensure survival.
Almost no society has had any need to practice "mindful eating" - food is there? We eat. But as food has become more available physically, mental restrictions have been imposed instead - eating rules - don't overeat, leave the table while you still feel a little hungry, don't be a glutton - or at least, we eat at meals and only at meals. Today, as we have more disposable money, and food is cheaper to produce, so we are told (by those who produce and sell foods, incidentally) that we shouldn't feel the slightest bit hungry, ever, and that we are "allowed" to "treat ourselves" and "indulge" whenever we feel like it. Family meals and home cooking aren't the norm anymore. (And when did it become normal for adults to eat candy? When I grew up, it was something only children did - or at least I was told that, lol, maybe every adult ate in secret all the time
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For me, when I think about it (and reading this thread and especially this post makes me think about it) I realise that the taste and habit are strong forces, but the availability is the strongest, for me. I have to create those restrictions or rules myself, and it's difficult because I'm the only one to supervise it, but it's the only solution I can see will work, and it works. When I reduce availability, the cravings are reduced. I can live with that. Having treats when offered is often enough for me. I will have sweets, I just don't buy them anymore.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »juggernaut1974 wrote: »Rodent studies.
When and if the results are replicated in human studies, I'll give it more credence.
I don't disagree with the underlying premise - that overconsumption of hyper-palatable foods (which tend to be concoctions of sugars and fats) are a major cause of the obesity crisis.
I disagree that we are powerless to change that behavior. Myself, and many others who are and continue to be successful with moderating (or in others' cases, eliminating) such foods indicates that the whole 'our brains get rewired such that we can't help ourselves' hypothesis seems to be merely an excuse.
Agree.
While I agree with the premise of hedonic hunger, I disagree with the idea that we can never control it and that it's the food.
I have eaten sweets just for pleasure and I have eaten savory foods like chicken legs in large quantities for the same reason.
When it comes to hormonal responses in humans and how much sway they supposedly hold, I always think back to this one study I read on satiety. In the study, the participants were told that they were drinking a beverage that would form a gel in their stomachs once it was there. It was in liquid form when it was ingested.
Well, it didn't do any such thing.
Now here's where it gets interesting. The study did have a control group... one group was told the liquid would gel, the other wasn't. In the group that was told it would gel, the participants not only reported feeling full from ingesting the liquid, they had the hormonal responses indicating satiety. Yup. They believed they were going to get full from the liquid, and they released the hormone to engender that response.
The control group? They didn't think they'd get full just from drinking liquid and did not have a similar response.
Bottom line? Humans are more complicated than rats with a mind-body connection.
Thanks for bringing that up. I am going to have to see if I can find that study, it sounds fascinating.0 -
I don't consider keeping foods that trigger my "hedonic hunger" out of the house avoiding the problem. I recognize there will be situations I am exposed to them and I need to learn to handle them. And I can do a good job at that sometimes. But if it's in the house and I'm exposed to it 10 times a day - inevitably at times when I'm tired or otherwise unmotivated - I'm much more likely to have a slip up. If I slip up only 10% of the time, that is still a lot of extra calories if it's in my house and I have to make that choice multiple times a day. If I'm only exposed to it at potlucks, restaurants, work, other people's homes, then slipping up 10% of the time does a lot less damage.0
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HippySkoppy wrote: »Thank you for the article it was interesting to read and understand more about the concept of hedonic hunger it isn't something with which I am familiar.
I do have one question though and am hoping those with a more understanding than me can help.
I got the impression that the researchers were saying that the response to this impulse diminishes after bariatric surgery.....the brain finally gets the changed messages of satiety from the gut.
So if one was to implement dietary changes and stop triggering the extra release of the reward pathways that lead to over-eating and obesity would that not mean that the person could successfully "re-wire" themselves without surgery......and we all can, given time and right circumstance overcome this hedonic over-eating?
I see where others have posted their successful ways of overcoming their particular triggers ie. limited quantities, not having said trigger in the home etc....So does that mean that now those brains have 're-wired' through hard-work and the willpower which the article said was not going to hold people back from these behaviours?
I felt too that the article was saying that the ONLY successful solutions for this issue are either targeted drug therapy or surgery....but I may have got that wrong.
Sure, lots of ways to rewire the brain - check out The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science, which was available in my library system so maybe yours too.
(Not diet-specific but a good read on neuroplasticity for the layman.)
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HippySkoppy wrote: »Thank you for the article it was interesting to read and understand more about the concept of hedonic hunger it isn't something with which I am familiar.
I do have one question though and am hoping those with a more understanding than me can help.
I got the impression that the researchers were saying that the response to this impulse diminishes after bariatric surgery.....the brain finally gets the changed messages of satiety from the gut.
So if one was to implement dietary changes and stop triggering the extra release of the reward pathways that lead to over-eating and obesity would that not mean that the person could successfully "re-wire" themselves without surgery......and we all can, given time and right circumstance overcome this hedonic over-eating?
I see where others have posted their successful ways of overcoming their particular triggers ie. limited quantities, not having said trigger in the home etc....So does that mean that now those brains have 're-wired' through hard-work and the willpower which the article said was not going to hold people back from these behaviours?
I felt too that the article was saying that the ONLY successful solutions for this issue are either targeted drug therapy or surgery....but I may have got that wrong.
That's not a way of overcoming it, it's a way of avoiding the issue. I mean, obviously, it works as long as you're at home, but that's pretty much it. For me total avoidance is the best way to guarantee that I will binge on it if I have the opportunity to eat what I've been avoiding (let's be fair though, I still 'avoid' a lot of things because they just don't fit easily in my days, in the sense that I might still eat them, but not as much as I'd like, so at things like buffets, for example, it often ends up badly).
But whether there's really a scientific explanation for it or not, the issue isn't really going anywhere, IMO. I mean, I see a lot of people tell others that they'll keep binging or overeating until they figure out WHY they do it, but when the answer is just 'because it's delicious', it's not that easy, lol. I kinda agree with the poster up there that said that sometimes, long term weight loss plans be damned, those cookies/donuts are totally worth it right now.
And yeah, it doesn't happen to everyone either, I know people who are totally satisfied with half a donut and it boggles my mind.
Yeah, there's variation in taste buds & a lot else. Ignoring donuts (or cookies, brownies, anything sweet) is the easiest thing in the world to me. I could have half a bite and put it down. Potato chips are another story.
Avoidance, or minimizing exposure, is a legit long-term strategy for a lot of people.
I've minimized potato chip exposure for going on 5 years. I have them very rarely now - no worries about it at all, don't miss them when they're not around, don't hate or fear them, don't hate myself for either being vulnerable to potato chips or for mostly banning them from my home. I'm not a raging potato chip lunatic out in the world, either. It just makes things a little easier than it would be if I brought them into the house on a regular basis. I've been doing this and maintaining successfully for years.
Why make things harder than they have to be? And what's the ultimate goal, really?0 -
robingmurphy wrote: »This is a new article at Scientific American I thought was interesting. How much does "hedonic hunger" drive your overeating? It's a big factor for me, and most of the time I just have to keep the high sugar/high fat foods out of my house to avoid it.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-sugar-and-fat-trick-the-brain-into-wanting-more-food/
That's a great article! It really sounds like me and the fudge thing, because it's not really a matter of being hungry but just wanting the pleasure. Thank you!0 -
Lets face it it is just a nice way of saying a person is leading an hedonistic life with a focus on food.
I can't see anything that is revelatory, just a re-wording with a new label.
Cheers, h.0 -
If people have pretty labels they don't need to take responsibility0
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