Maybe Sugar IS the Devil - US Goverment Diet Recommendations
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I remember eating spoonfuls of sugar when I was a wee lad, I was a hyperactive nut case.0
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RobertHolland567 wrote: »I remember eating spoonfuls of sugar when I was a wee lad, I was a hyperactive nut case.
That little boy from Mary Poppins seemed pretty messed up too.0 -
The whole point of the government guidelines can be summarized in the following manner.
PART 1: THE HISTORY- Americans are too fat
- Americans are too fat because they eat too much food
- Americans eat too much food because food is cheap and tastes good
- American food tastes good because it has sugar, salt and fat in it
- If we make American food taste bad, Americans will eat less
- If Americans eat less they will not be so fat.
PART 2: THE PRESENT- We tried to get Americans to give up fat
- Decades of public promotion of low-fat diets worked to get Americans to eat less fats
- Americans compensated for low-fat diets with more sugar and salt
- Americans are still eating way too much food.
- Therefore American food still tastes too good, even though it's low-fat.
PART 3: THE FUTURE- What makes American food taste good? The sugar and salt.
- Let's get Americans to give up their sugar and salt.
- Then American food will taste bad
- And Americans will quit eating too much
- And they won't be so fat.
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Yeah, this is true. Though in my case, most of the added sugar I eat is in foods I directly add it to, so it's not that hard to calculate.ForecasterJason wrote: »I almost never go over 10% of my daily calories from added sugar. Like some have said, if one focuses on eating a well balanced diet, this recommendation shouldn't really be an issue, as there won't be much room for added sugar to make up more than 10% of calories.
I feel like attempting to calculate added sugar right now would just make my eye twitch. It will get easier once the food label splits it out (for example, how much sugar in my apple cinnamon oatmeal is added, and how much is from the apples?).
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I like it, tomtebata, but Americans never actually adopted low-fat diets, and I'd amend "Americans are still eating way too much food" to "Americans are eating EVEN MORE food." Here's a good source, although they don't have numbers beyond 2000, sadly: http://www.usda.gov/factbook/chapter2.pdf
There are lots of low fat items, but a lot of the cheap processed foods that people eat are full of fat too. The Salt, Sugar, Fat book has a good discussion on the increase of fat in convenience items, and if you just look at the "junk food" people tend to eat (and refer to as "carbs") many have just about the same number of calories from fat -- sweet baked goods, potato chips and fries, fast food in general, major chain pizza, etc. The one big exception is soda and energy drinks.0 -
His point was sugar spiking blood sugar, not protein. I know protein has been shown to raise insulin, but the real issue is high blood glucose leading to insulin resistance. And blood glucose won't be spiked as much from protein as from carbs.Sugar spikes blood sugar. Do that too often or too much, and insulin resistance results. Inflammation follows. When you are 100-110 lbs overweight for years like I was, IR is a big deal. Hitting 277 lbs and judged pre-diabetic by my doctor a year ago, suffering from joint pain and gum recession (inflammation), I made the decision to make the Big Change. Not only did I give up refined sugar, but also all grains (whole grains, especially wheat, spike blood sugar more than table sugar).
A year later, I have lost 50 lbs, have no joint or lower back pain, and gum recession has reversed. Increased energy, elevated mood. Most of my major improvements came in 2-3 weeks after eliminating all grains and grain products. Weight loss took longer. The program I followed is called "Wheat Belly."
Four months ago, I moved from WB to Nutritional Ketosis, or as I call it, WB+. I had plateaued my weight loss over several months. NK (not to be confused with Ketoacidosis, a dangerous condition in T1 diabetics) emphasizes very low carbs (<10-15 g), moderate protein (70-90 g), and higher fats (80% of calories +). It has broken my IR and I have been steadily losing since moving to NK. Hit my lowest weight in years yesterday. 50 lbs down, 60 to go.
MFP has been my best friend on WB and NK. The display of macros Carbs, Fats, Proteins makes computing the Ketogenic Ratio (how ketogenic any food or meal or day is) a snap. My only wish is that MFP add the KR calculator in its list of nutrients. It's a simple formula.
WB and NK has given me back my health at age 67. The USDA recommended "6-11 servings of whole grains" and "limited fats" is a recipe for obesity, diabetes, as well as providing a rich environment for cancers (love glucose) and dementia (oxidation in neurons). It is no wonder American obesity, diabetes, cancer, and dementia has grown exponentially since these food guidelines were first published in the 1970s.
I have no vested interested in WB or NK beyond being a grateful recipient of their pathway to health. You can read the stories of thousands (with pictures) at OfficialWheatBelly on Facebook. Or get the lowdown on NK from "Butter Bob" Briggs at website "ButterMakesYourPantsFallOff" or Jimmy Moore's excellent research summary in "Keto Clarity."
If you are having trouble losing weight . . . stalled at a certain point . . . simply lower carbs and raise healthy fats. Beyond that, check out these resources for a new way of looking at the American Food Industry.
protein spikes insulin too, so are you recommending avoiding that?
and to your last point, if you are in a caloric surplus and just lower carbs and increase fat and are still in said surplus, you will not lose any additional fat, because caloric surplus.0 -
So why is there so much added sugar in foods today? Well it is due in no small part to the fat is bad scare of the 1980's for two reasons. 1) When you reduce fat the food tastes of cardboard so you load it with sugar and salt to get some taste back. 2) Low fat is anything with less than 30% of its calories from fat so if you load the food with sugar to increase its total calories you reduce the % of calories from fat. So the infamous fat scare of the 80's has ultimately led to these "hidden added sugars" in our foods. I worry about what is next when the sugar scare does not reduce the obesity epidemic0
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I look at it from the standpoint that a lot of people should reduce the amount of added sugar and salt in their diet, not that they need to cut it all out.The whole point of the government guidelines can be summarized in the following manner.
PART 1: THE HISTORY- Americans are too fat
- Americans are too fat because they eat too much food
- Americans eat too much food because food is cheap and tastes good
- American food tastes good because it has sugar, salt and fat in it
- If we make American food taste bad, Americans will eat less
- If Americans eat less they will not be so fat.
PART 2: THE PRESENT- We tried to get Americans to give up fat
- Decades of public promotion of low-fat diets worked to get Americans to eat less fats
- Americans compensated for low-fat diets with more sugar and salt
- Americans are still eating way too much food.
- Therefore American food still tastes too good, even though it's low-fat.
PART 3: THE FUTURE- What makes American food taste good? The sugar and salt.
- Let's get Americans to give up their sugar and salt.
- Then American food will taste bad
- And Americans will quit eating too much
- And they won't be so fat.
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ChrisM8971 wrote: »So why is there so much added sugar in foods today? Well it is due in no small part to the fat is bad scare of the 1980's for two reasons. 1) When you reduce fat the food tastes of cardboard so you load it with sugar and salt to get some taste back. 2) Low fat is anything with less than 30% of its calories from fat so if you load the food with sugar to increase its total calories you reduce the % of calories from fat. So the infamous fat scare of the 80's has ultimately led to these "hidden added sugars" in our foods. I worry about what is next when the sugar scare does not reduce the obesity epidemic
I think I'm gonna go buy the web domain wateristhedevil.com now while I still can
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juggernaut1974 wrote: »ChrisM8971 wrote: »So why is there so much added sugar in foods today? Well it is due in no small part to the fat is bad scare of the 1980's for two reasons. 1) When you reduce fat the food tastes of cardboard so you load it with sugar and salt to get some taste back. 2) Low fat is anything with less than 30% of its calories from fat so if you load the food with sugar to increase its total calories you reduce the % of calories from fat. So the infamous fat scare of the 80's has ultimately led to these "hidden added sugars" in our foods. I worry about what is next when the sugar scare does not reduce the obesity epidemic
I think I'm gonna go buy the web domain wateristhedevil.com now while I still can
Where is the like button when you need it
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@lemurcat12
That report is a bit dated (2001). The last 15 years have brought about some interesting changes.
"Americans Are Finally Eating Less" - New York Times, July 24, 2015
There was a certain amount of tongue-in-cheek on my post. 0 -
Yay, though I walk through the aisles of chocolate and cookies I shall feel no evil, for thou art with me. Thy carrot and jerky stick comfort me.
Gives a whole new meaning to "Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies" for sure.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
His point was sugar spiking blood sugar, not protein. I know protein has been shown to raise insulin, but the real issue is high blood glucose leading to insulin resistance. And blood glucose won't be spiked as much from protein as from carbs.Sugar spikes blood sugar. Do that too often or too much, and insulin resistance results. Inflammation follows. When you are 100-110 lbs overweight for years like I was, IR is a big deal. Hitting 277 lbs and judged pre-diabetic by my doctor a year ago, suffering from joint pain and gum recession (inflammation), I made the decision to make the Big Change. Not only did I give up refined sugar, but also all grains (whole grains, especially wheat, spike blood sugar more than table sugar).
A year later, I have lost 50 lbs, have no joint or lower back pain, and gum recession has reversed. Increased energy, elevated mood. Most of my major improvements came in 2-3 weeks after eliminating all grains and grain products. Weight loss took longer. The program I followed is called "Wheat Belly."
Four months ago, I moved from WB to Nutritional Ketosis, or as I call it, WB+. I had plateaued my weight loss over several months. NK (not to be confused with Ketoacidosis, a dangerous condition in T1 diabetics) emphasizes very low carbs (<10-15 g), moderate protein (70-90 g), and higher fats (80% of calories +). It has broken my IR and I have been steadily losing since moving to NK. Hit my lowest weight in years yesterday. 50 lbs down, 60 to go.
MFP has been my best friend on WB and NK. The display of macros Carbs, Fats, Proteins makes computing the Ketogenic Ratio (how ketogenic any food or meal or day is) a snap. My only wish is that MFP add the KR calculator in its list of nutrients. It's a simple formula.
WB and NK has given me back my health at age 67. The USDA recommended "6-11 servings of whole grains" and "limited fats" is a recipe for obesity, diabetes, as well as providing a rich environment for cancers (love glucose) and dementia (oxidation in neurons). It is no wonder American obesity, diabetes, cancer, and dementia has grown exponentially since these food guidelines were first published in the 1970s.
I have no vested interested in WB or NK beyond being a grateful recipient of their pathway to health. You can read the stories of thousands (with pictures) at OfficialWheatBelly on Facebook. Or get the lowdown on NK from "Butter Bob" Briggs at website "ButterMakesYourPantsFallOff" or Jimmy Moore's excellent research summary in "Keto Clarity."
If you are having trouble losing weight . . . stalled at a certain point . . . simply lower carbs and raise healthy fats. Beyond that, check out these resources for a new way of looking at the American Food Industry.
protein spikes insulin too, so are you recommending avoiding that?
and to your last point, if you are in a caloric surplus and just lower carbs and increase fat and are still in said surplus, you will not lose any additional fat, because caloric surplus.
actually, according to this - http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/ - they are about the same.
so please explain to me why the carb spike is bad but the protein spike is good?
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I really hope that an added sugar category be added to the food label. If the livestock producers did not have such a powerful lobby, red meat would be the devil too and processed meat would be the worstest devil of them all.0
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
His point was sugar spiking blood sugar, not protein. I know protein has been shown to raise insulin, but the real issue is high blood glucose leading to insulin resistance. And blood glucose won't be spiked as much from protein as from carbs.Sugar spikes blood sugar. Do that too often or too much, and insulin resistance results. Inflammation follows. When you are 100-110 lbs overweight for years like I was, IR is a big deal. Hitting 277 lbs and judged pre-diabetic by my doctor a year ago, suffering from joint pain and gum recession (inflammation), I made the decision to make the Big Change. Not only did I give up refined sugar, but also all grains (whole grains, especially wheat, spike blood sugar more than table sugar).
A year later, I have lost 50 lbs, have no joint or lower back pain, and gum recession has reversed. Increased energy, elevated mood. Most of my major improvements came in 2-3 weeks after eliminating all grains and grain products. Weight loss took longer. The program I followed is called "Wheat Belly."
Four months ago, I moved from WB to Nutritional Ketosis, or as I call it, WB+. I had plateaued my weight loss over several months. NK (not to be confused with Ketoacidosis, a dangerous condition in T1 diabetics) emphasizes very low carbs (<10-15 g), moderate protein (70-90 g), and higher fats (80% of calories +). It has broken my IR and I have been steadily losing since moving to NK. Hit my lowest weight in years yesterday. 50 lbs down, 60 to go.
MFP has been my best friend on WB and NK. The display of macros Carbs, Fats, Proteins makes computing the Ketogenic Ratio (how ketogenic any food or meal or day is) a snap. My only wish is that MFP add the KR calculator in its list of nutrients. It's a simple formula.
WB and NK has given me back my health at age 67. The USDA recommended "6-11 servings of whole grains" and "limited fats" is a recipe for obesity, diabetes, as well as providing a rich environment for cancers (love glucose) and dementia (oxidation in neurons). It is no wonder American obesity, diabetes, cancer, and dementia has grown exponentially since these food guidelines were first published in the 1970s.
I have no vested interested in WB or NK beyond being a grateful recipient of their pathway to health. You can read the stories of thousands (with pictures) at OfficialWheatBelly on Facebook. Or get the lowdown on NK from "Butter Bob" Briggs at website "ButterMakesYourPantsFallOff" or Jimmy Moore's excellent research summary in "Keto Clarity."
If you are having trouble losing weight . . . stalled at a certain point . . . simply lower carbs and raise healthy fats. Beyond that, check out these resources for a new way of looking at the American Food Industry.
protein spikes insulin too, so are you recommending avoiding that?
and to your last point, if you are in a caloric surplus and just lower carbs and increase fat and are still in said surplus, you will not lose any additional fat, because caloric surplus.
actually, according to this - http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/ - they are about the same.
so please explain to me why the carb spike is bad but the protein spike is good?
Beat me to it, I was going to post that research review.
All the "sugar is da debilz" people fail to realize (or ignore) the fact that protein creates a nearly identical BG spike to carbs. Then it creates a cognitive dissonance because it's been drummed into their heads that sugar is da debilz. Dogma can be a hard thing for some people to let go of, even in the face of science. Maybe next we'll be hearing that protein is da debilz.0 -
Sugar is too sweet to be the devil, or is it?0
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@lemurcat12
That report is a bit dated (2001). The last 15 years have brought about some interesting changes.
"Americans Are Finally Eating Less" - New York Times, July 24, 2015 There was a certain amount of tongue-in-cheek on my post.
Oh, I got that. Like I said, I liked it!
I think overall consumption is still way up vs. the 1980s and 1990s, though. And my bigger point was that we didn't actually adopt "low fat." We talked about it a lot and Snackwells made some $$, though.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
His point was sugar spiking blood sugar, not protein. I know protein has been shown to raise insulin, but the real issue is high blood glucose leading to insulin resistance. And blood glucose won't be spiked as much from protein as from carbs.Sugar spikes blood sugar. Do that too often or too much, and insulin resistance results. Inflammation follows. When you are 100-110 lbs overweight for years like I was, IR is a big deal. Hitting 277 lbs and judged pre-diabetic by my doctor a year ago, suffering from joint pain and gum recession (inflammation), I made the decision to make the Big Change. Not only did I give up refined sugar, but also all grains (whole grains, especially wheat, spike blood sugar more than table sugar).
A year later, I have lost 50 lbs, have no joint or lower back pain, and gum recession has reversed. Increased energy, elevated mood. Most of my major improvements came in 2-3 weeks after eliminating all grains and grain products. Weight loss took longer. The program I followed is called "Wheat Belly."
Four months ago, I moved from WB to Nutritional Ketosis, or as I call it, WB+. I had plateaued my weight loss over several months. NK (not to be confused with Ketoacidosis, a dangerous condition in T1 diabetics) emphasizes very low carbs (<10-15 g), moderate protein (70-90 g), and higher fats (80% of calories +). It has broken my IR and I have been steadily losing since moving to NK. Hit my lowest weight in years yesterday. 50 lbs down, 60 to go.
MFP has been my best friend on WB and NK. The display of macros Carbs, Fats, Proteins makes computing the Ketogenic Ratio (how ketogenic any food or meal or day is) a snap. My only wish is that MFP add the KR calculator in its list of nutrients. It's a simple formula.
WB and NK has given me back my health at age 67. The USDA recommended "6-11 servings of whole grains" and "limited fats" is a recipe for obesity, diabetes, as well as providing a rich environment for cancers (love glucose) and dementia (oxidation in neurons). It is no wonder American obesity, diabetes, cancer, and dementia has grown exponentially since these food guidelines were first published in the 1970s.
I have no vested interested in WB or NK beyond being a grateful recipient of their pathway to health. You can read the stories of thousands (with pictures) at OfficialWheatBelly on Facebook. Or get the lowdown on NK from "Butter Bob" Briggs at website "ButterMakesYourPantsFallOff" or Jimmy Moore's excellent research summary in "Keto Clarity."
If you are having trouble losing weight . . . stalled at a certain point . . . simply lower carbs and raise healthy fats. Beyond that, check out these resources for a new way of looking at the American Food Industry.
protein spikes insulin too, so are you recommending avoiding that?
and to your last point, if you are in a caloric surplus and just lower carbs and increase fat and are still in said surplus, you will not lose any additional fat, because caloric surplus.
actually, according to this - http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/ - they are about the same.
so please explain to me why the carb spike is bad but the protein spike is good?ForecasterJason wrote: »
His point was sugar spiking blood sugar, not protein. I know protein has been shown to raise insulin, but the real issue is high blood glucose leading to insulin resistance. And blood glucose won't be spiked as much from protein as from carbs.Sugar spikes blood sugar. Do that too often or too much, and insulin resistance results. Inflammation follows. When you are 100-110 lbs overweight for years like I was, IR is a big deal. Hitting 277 lbs and judged pre-diabetic by my doctor a year ago, suffering from joint pain and gum recession (inflammation), I made the decision to make the Big Change. Not only did I give up refined sugar, but also all grains (whole grains, especially wheat, spike blood sugar more than table sugar).
A year later, I have lost 50 lbs, have no joint or lower back pain, and gum recession has reversed. Increased energy, elevated mood. Most of my major improvements came in 2-3 weeks after eliminating all grains and grain products. Weight loss took longer. The program I followed is called "Wheat Belly."
Four months ago, I moved from WB to Nutritional Ketosis, or as I call it, WB+. I had plateaued my weight loss over several months. NK (not to be confused with Ketoacidosis, a dangerous condition in T1 diabetics) emphasizes very low carbs (<10-15 g), moderate protein (70-90 g), and higher fats (80% of calories +). It has broken my IR and I have been steadily losing since moving to NK. Hit my lowest weight in years yesterday. 50 lbs down, 60 to go.
MFP has been my best friend on WB and NK. The display of macros Carbs, Fats, Proteins makes computing the Ketogenic Ratio (how ketogenic any food or meal or day is) a snap. My only wish is that MFP add the KR calculator in its list of nutrients. It's a simple formula.
WB and NK has given me back my health at age 67. The USDA recommended "6-11 servings of whole grains" and "limited fats" is a recipe for obesity, diabetes, as well as providing a rich environment for cancers (love glucose) and dementia (oxidation in neurons). It is no wonder American obesity, diabetes, cancer, and dementia has grown exponentially since these food guidelines were first published in the 1970s.
I have no vested interested in WB or NK beyond being a grateful recipient of their pathway to health. You can read the stories of thousands (with pictures) at OfficialWheatBelly on Facebook. Or get the lowdown on NK from "Butter Bob" Briggs at website "ButterMakesYourPantsFallOff" or Jimmy Moore's excellent research summary in "Keto Clarity."
If you are having trouble losing weight . . . stalled at a certain point . . . simply lower carbs and raise healthy fats. Beyond that, check out these resources for a new way of looking at the American Food Industry.
protein spikes insulin too, so are you recommending avoiding that?
and to your last point, if you are in a caloric surplus and just lower carbs and increase fat and are still in said surplus, you will not lose any additional fat, because caloric surplus.
actually, according to this - http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/ - they are about the same.
so please explain to me why the carb spike is bad but the protein spike is good?
Beat me to it, I was going to post that research review.
All the "sugar is da debilz" people fail to realize (or ignore) the fact that protein creates a nearly identical BG spike to carbs. Then it creates a cognitive dissonance because it's been drummed into their heads that sugar is da debilz. Dogma can be a hard thing for some people to let go of, even in the face of science.
I didn't see anyone mention insulin spikes. I believe it was said that "sugar spikes blood sugar".
The people who keep going on about "sugar is da debilz" are not those who are trying to limit sugar for health reasons.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
His point was sugar spiking blood sugar, not protein. I know protein has been shown to raise insulin, but the real issue is high blood glucose leading to insulin resistance. And blood glucose won't be spiked as much from protein as from carbs.Sugar spikes blood sugar. Do that too often or too much, and insulin resistance results. Inflammation follows. When you are 100-110 lbs overweight for years like I was, IR is a big deal. Hitting 277 lbs and judged pre-diabetic by my doctor a year ago, suffering from joint pain and gum recession (inflammation), I made the decision to make the Big Change. Not only did I give up refined sugar, but also all grains (whole grains, especially wheat, spike blood sugar more than table sugar).
A year later, I have lost 50 lbs, have no joint or lower back pain, and gum recession has reversed. Increased energy, elevated mood. Most of my major improvements came in 2-3 weeks after eliminating all grains and grain products. Weight loss took longer. The program I followed is called "Wheat Belly."
Four months ago, I moved from WB to Nutritional Ketosis, or as I call it, WB+. I had plateaued my weight loss over several months. NK (not to be confused with Ketoacidosis, a dangerous condition in T1 diabetics) emphasizes very low carbs (<10-15 g), moderate protein (70-90 g), and higher fats (80% of calories +). It has broken my IR and I have been steadily losing since moving to NK. Hit my lowest weight in years yesterday. 50 lbs down, 60 to go.
MFP has been my best friend on WB and NK. The display of macros Carbs, Fats, Proteins makes computing the Ketogenic Ratio (how ketogenic any food or meal or day is) a snap. My only wish is that MFP add the KR calculator in its list of nutrients. It's a simple formula.
WB and NK has given me back my health at age 67. The USDA recommended "6-11 servings of whole grains" and "limited fats" is a recipe for obesity, diabetes, as well as providing a rich environment for cancers (love glucose) and dementia (oxidation in neurons). It is no wonder American obesity, diabetes, cancer, and dementia has grown exponentially since these food guidelines were first published in the 1970s.
I have no vested interested in WB or NK beyond being a grateful recipient of their pathway to health. You can read the stories of thousands (with pictures) at OfficialWheatBelly on Facebook. Or get the lowdown on NK from "Butter Bob" Briggs at website "ButterMakesYourPantsFallOff" or Jimmy Moore's excellent research summary in "Keto Clarity."
If you are having trouble losing weight . . . stalled at a certain point . . . simply lower carbs and raise healthy fats. Beyond that, check out these resources for a new way of looking at the American Food Industry.
protein spikes insulin too, so are you recommending avoiding that?
and to your last point, if you are in a caloric surplus and just lower carbs and increase fat and are still in said surplus, you will not lose any additional fat, because caloric surplus.
actually, according to this - http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/ - they are about the same.
so please explain to me why the carb spike is bad but the protein spike is good?
Beat me to it, I was going to post that research review.
All the "sugar is da debilz" people fail to realize (or ignore) the fact that protein creates a nearly identical BG spike to carbs. Then it creates a cognitive dissonance because it's been drummed into their heads that sugar is da debilz. Dogma can be a hard thing for some people to let go of, even in the face of science. Maybe next we'll be hearing that protein is da debilz.
i believe that will be the next scare once sugar is shown to be harmless..
episode five - the protein wars….0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »@lemurcat12
That report is a bit dated (2001). The last 15 years have brought about some interesting changes.
"Americans Are Finally Eating Less" - New York Times, July 24, 2015 There was a certain amount of tongue-in-cheek on my post.
Oh, I got that. Like I said, I liked it!
I think overall consumption is still way up vs. the 1980s and 1990s, though. And my bigger point was that we didn't actually adopt "low fat." We talked about it a lot and Snackwells made some $$, though.
Ugh, Snackwells. Disgusting memory. But people ate them up because they were said to be "healthier".0
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