how important is stretching really?

tufel wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

Stretching ISN'T necessary for fitness unless lack of flexibility reduces you from completing a decent ROM.
Personally I'll do dynamic stretching before a workout and some static stretching if I feel like it after.
Stretching DOES NOT "shape" muscles. One of the biggest myths of yoga is that it builds LONG LEAN MUSCLE. Muscles are attached to their points on bone from when you were born. You can't lengthen them unless you detach them from bone. And yoga ain't doing that. Muscle is always built "lean". It's reduction of fat that makes one look leaner.
And DOMS is from exercise that the muscle wasn't accustomed to. Stretching muscle doesn't help it recover faster. It MAY help one feel better from DOMS because stretching is and exercise and just getting physical movement will increase blood flow to the area increasing warmth.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Not to be antagonistic, but I beg to differ. If a practice of stretching does not produce greater flexibility, then how come those old Indian guys can put their foot behind their head and I cannot?

Where did I say that stretching DOESN'T produce greater flexibility?

I think that is a bit like saying that you are born with the muscles you have so weight lifting is not going to change them in any way.
I believe that studies have not demonstrated that stretching reduces injury or improves performance. But that studies have tended to be intervention studies -- where they take subjects and have them to a stretching program and, either, measure something or watch what happens. Consequently, they are short-term. That is, they have people stretch for 12 weeks, maybe 16 weeks, and then they watch how often they get injured during the period. It is disappointing that they do not detect a benefit from stretching. But those studies may be missing the point, which is that stretching, over the long-term (years) makes you more limber and a more limber athlete is a better athlete and an athlete less prone to falling or twisting something, or pulling a muscle.

I'll agree here on being more flexible and MAY make one less prone. However when an athlete gets injured it's usually not do to lack of flexibility. It's due to trauma on a joint, ligament, tendon or muscle from explosive movement. Go to any orthopedist and the majority of people who get injured in those areas happen when they are just doing everyday things like stepping off a side walk, or walking down stairs.

I run. I stretch. I have always made a point of stretching. I do not pull a hamstring. Years and years of soccer. I have pulled a hamstring, maybe, once or twice. I know guys who pull up lame every week.

Pulled muscles don't necessarily mean lack of flexibility though. Many times it's because the antagonistic muscle is much stronger. For many that get hamstring injuries, it's because they are usually quad dominant and the hamstrings get neglected or less attention to detail.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

feisty_bucket wrote: »

mathjulz wrote: »

feisty_bucket wrote: »

I don't stretch any more at all and don't injure myself. If something is feeling twingy, I chill and let it go. Maybe my angle was a little funny or whatever. Next time, it's always better.

There's a buncha articles out there suggesting stretching weakens things and makes them more prone to injury.

Do you have anything you can link? I was a gymnast back in my teen years (nothing spectacular) and can still get pretty close to a full splits, but I also do heavy lifting, and I've always felt like the flexibility is a benefit to almost anything I do. I don't see it as weakening anything, especially not the ligaments.

Here's a couple from the general media. You can dig up the sources if you want more detail:
well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/reasons-not-to-stretch/

theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/08/stretching-before-exercise-is-overrated/376089/

AnvilHead wrote: »

mathjulz wrote: »

feisty_bucket wrote: »

I don't stretch any more at all and don't injure myself. If something is feeling twingy, I chill and let it go. Maybe my angle was a little funny or whatever. Next time, it's always better.

There's a buncha articles out there suggesting stretching weakens things and makes them more prone to injury.

Do you have anything you can link? I was a gymnast back in my teen years (nothing spectacular) and can still get pretty close to a full splits, but I also do heavy lifting, and I've always felt like the flexibility is a benefit to almost anything I do. I don't see it as weakening anything, especially not the ligaments.

Here's one from PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19057408

My usual routine is to do 5-10 minutes on a stationary bike before the workout, then the only stretching I do is a couple of light warm-up sets for the specific movement.

Thanks for the links. I probably misunderstood the original statement - it seems like it's pre-workout stretching that is the issue, not stretching/flexibility in general. That is good to know (I always hate the pre-workout stretch anyway, it make more sense to do any stretching afterwards, when muscles are warm).

I realize that I tend to stretch after an exercise, DOMs related. My hips are tight a lot of the time and I stretch when I feel them aching. Sometimes if I don't open my hips before a walk, I'll feel it later. But now I'm thinking maybe it just seems that way and really my core is weak and my hips and knee aches are a symptom of that... Guess I'll do more core work and see. I've always been pretty flexible, even for my size, so maybe just sticking to DOM related stretching would work best for me...

I stretch alot but it's part of my program and it's doing wonders because it fits the kick to the head goal most ppl who train martial arts have otherwise I would only bother with my shoulders.

ninerbuff wrote: »

jimmmer wrote: »

Ridiculously they always put someone through an extreme static stretch held for an age (unlike one you would actually do) and consequently show a reduction in 1RM strength.

Quote that in the link or study.

Of course it's just the fad now to bash stretching. Holding a static stretch for 20-30s as part of your warm up isn't going to kill you or make your spine shoot out of your *kitten* on that heavy squat attempt.

People need to get real here.

It's not bashing. OP asked if it's necessary or helps with shaping muscles and was given correct info. Choice is up to the person if they want to stretch or not because it's NOT necessary if flexibility isn't a high priority.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

1) I hate people who cherry pick studies, since it shows a total lack of understanding of science and the scientific process, but here you go

http://eprints2008.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/17085/1/JS&CR8-48.pdf

The study size was small (only 11) and only done on recreationally active men, but you get the idea. Static stretching of 30s has no negative effect on strength performance on the subjects tested. The reason I quoted this study, is the authors quote some of the previous studies that used a static hold (sometimes up to 30 mins - I kid you not).

For me (and now we're out of the realm of cherry-picked forum science and back into anecdotal land) a combination of techniques in a solid warm is the sign of a mature trainee. Dynamic stuff, range-of-motion testing, PNF, trigger point release, static stretch and muscle activation should be used in some combination that's unique to you and the challenges you face after a lifetime of wear and tear. And I don't need a scientific study to tell me that (no matter how handsomely cherry-picked it is ).

2) As to the second point: any post on static stretching is going to be littered with posts responding that they don't static stretch before a workout because it's "bad". It will later transpire that they got this notion from someone (man down the pub, blog post, runner's world article, internet fitness guru, etc) who heard it from someone, who read a study sometime, that was probably using a static stretch methodology (see point 1 above) that no one actually employs pre-workout.

The point of static stretching isn't to grab something, torque yourself into a mad position and actually make yourself tighter (yes, that can happen), it's to breathe in a moderately extended position and prove to your nervous system that this range of motion is ownable because we can be calm in it. Then you can move freely into that range without your brain freaking out.

That's also why people can actually use a static stretch as a biofeedback indicator of readiness to go, in effect using it the opposite way round as a test that something's working rather than getting you ready to work - Dave Dellanave springs to mind here with his toe touch test to select the working set deadlift variation (a fascinating concept by the way) for the day:

https://www.dellanave.com/biofeedback-training-get-started/

and

https://www.movementminneapolis.com/how-to-test-movement-using-biofeedback/

Anyway this is a more complex subject than just "dynamic before, static after or you'll lose all your gainz bro"

scottish_laura_13 wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

Stretching ISN'T necessary for fitness unless lack of flexibility reduces you from completing a decent ROM.
Personally I'll do dynamic stretching before a workout and some static stretching if I feel like it after.
Stretching DOES NOT "shape" muscles. One of the biggest myths of yoga is that it builds LONG LEAN MUSCLE. Muscles are attached to their points on bone from when you were born. You can't lengthen them unless you detach them from bone. And yoga ain't doing that. Muscle is always built "lean". It's reduction of fat that makes one look leaner.
And DOMS is from exercise that the muscle wasn't accustomed to. Stretching muscle doesn't help it recover faster. It MAY help one feel better from DOMS because stretching is and exercise and just getting physical movement will increase blood flow to the area increasing warmth.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

sorry my physio disagrees about the lengthing thing - my calf, and other leg muscles (but mostly my calf) on one leg has shortened by 5cm due to injury and the effects of that injury and my physio has me stretching and doing yoga and other exercises to lengthen the muscle (so far gained 3.5cm back)
yoga can help tone and is still exercise at the end of the day so is still good for you
stretching or doing yoga before an exercise can help warm you up and get the body ready for impact instead or going instantly and shocking ur muscles into working so im pro stretching and pro yoga! especially fast yoga
I think the main reason y people don't bother stretching or get injuries after or don't find it helps is because they are doing the wrong stretches (mostly static stretches in slightly wrong alignment can totally change what it does to your body) this is mostly due from being taught the way to stretch from somebody who doesn't focus on the correct way and instead just sees you doing something close to the correct way

Interesting article by Bret Contras on this point:

5. Stretching Doesn’t Increase Muscle Length

When you stretch your muscles, you increase your flexibility. But you do not do so through increasing the length of the muscles, you do so by decreasing your brain’s threat response – the brain “releases the brakes” and allows the muscle to stretch further. Stretching is a nervous system strategy aimed at increasing flexibility, not a mechanical adaptation inducing strategy. Weppler and Magnusson reviewed this phenomenon 4 years ago, and since then much more research has emerged.


Full article: https://bretcontreras.com/long-lean-muscles-oh-irony/

scottish_laura_13 wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

Stretching ISN'T necessary for fitness unless lack of flexibility reduces you from completing a decent ROM.
Personally I'll do dynamic stretching before a workout and some static stretching if I feel like it after.
Stretching DOES NOT "shape" muscles. One of the biggest myths of yoga is that it builds LONG LEAN MUSCLE. Muscles are attached to their points on bone from when you were born. You can't lengthen them unless you detach them from bone. And yoga ain't doing that. Muscle is always built "lean". It's reduction of fat that makes one look leaner.
And DOMS is from exercise that the muscle wasn't accustomed to. Stretching muscle doesn't help it recover faster. It MAY help one feel better from DOMS because stretching is and exercise and just getting physical movement will increase blood flow to the area increasing warmth.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

sorry my physio disagrees about the lengthing thing - my calf, and other leg muscles (but mostly my calf) on one leg has shortened by 5cm due to injury and the effects of that injury and my physio has me stretching and doing yoga and other exercises to lengthen the muscle (so far gained 3.5cm back)

Injury shortened it, stretching is helping to regain back ORIGINAL length. You're not going to lengthen muscle beyond the point where it's attached.

yoga can help tone and is still exercise at the end of the day so is still good for you
stretching or doing yoga before an exercise can help warm you up and get the body ready for impact instead or going instantly and shocking ur muscles into working so im pro stretching and pro yoga! especially fast yoga
I think the main reason y people don't bother stretching or get injuries after or don't find it helps is because they are doing the wrong stretches (mostly static stretches in slightly wrong alignment can totally change what it does to your body) this is mostly due from being taught the way to stretch from somebody who doesn't focus on the correct way and instead just sees you doing something close to the correct way

Any kind of warm up helps before rigorous exercise and it doesn't have to be yoga. In fact the MAJORITY of athletes, runners, etc. do warms up that are going to simulate the movements that are going to be performed in their sports. And contrary to popular belief, stretching doesn't reduce risk of injury because most injuries aren't due to inflexibility, but due to sudden impact, falls, or extending ROM beyond it's NORMAL range.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I like stretching and it feels good, so I do it.

I usually do longer poses when 'cold', usually in the morning before work. When I hit the gym, I do a bit of dynamic stretching. Works well for me, and since starting the morning poses I've been significantly less sore.

For something like dance, we definitely had to stretch before. But I think that must be because we would push our ROM to the limit when performing or practicing. I got the worst groin pull for weeks by not being stretched enough before kicking one time. I think stretching helps before something like that, but I could see where it doesn't help for normal yet vigorous motions that don't push your ROM. Warming up is still important, I think, though.

For overall fitness/health, I do think general flexibility is important. That involves some stretching for most people, I'd think, at least as we age.