Let development/strength without squats?

Da_Chozen_Juan
Da_Chozen_Juan Posts: 37 Member
edited November 29 in Fitness and Exercise
Backstory: fully dislocated kneecap 3 times ( 1 on left, 2 on right). 2 surgeries (knee recon on each knee) and they still occasionally pop out of place but pop back in right after. I'm a 20 year old guy and I started having problems freshman year of HS. Been lifting for a year, but back squating since October. Last month my right knee gave out doing 120 lb back squat and I failed the lift and fell. I took a month break from heavy squats & DL's and focused primarily on BW squats and mobility exercises which I feel have been doing my knees good, but tomorrow I'm thinking about squating with weight again but I am really anxious about it. My question is, have any of you stopped doing squats for a while or completely and have still managed to develop your legs or progressively gained strength? And yes more likely than not it was my own fault due to flaws in my form, but than again barbell squats are not for everyone so idk.

Replies

  • jemhh
    jemhh Posts: 14,261 Member
    Have you worked with a physical therapist or other specialist? You're really young and have already had knee reconstructions. I know that you're only asking for people's experiences, not lifting advice, but if you are open to advice, I'd suggest working with trainer who really knows about this kind of thing.
  • cafeaulait7
    cafeaulait7 Posts: 2,459 Member
    I have extremely hypermobile kneecaps that never stay in place, so I don't squat. Glute bridges work great, though, so I do those with a barbell. Those hit a lot of leg muscles in the posterior chain, anyway.
  • Packerjohn
    Packerjohn Posts: 4,855 Member
    I would second @jemhh idea on a physical therapist. Google and see if you can find one that is also a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist and you'll hit the mother lode. I would probably stay away from the typical trainer at a big box gym given your history.

    As to other ideas on building legs, how about sled pulls/pushes, sprints up hiii?
  • Da_Chozen_Juan
    Da_Chozen_Juan Posts: 37 Member
    Packerjohn wrote: »
    I would second @jemhh idea on a physical therapist. Google and see if you can find one that is also a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist and you'll hit the mother lode. I would probably stay away from the typical trainer at a big box gym given your history.

    As to other ideas on building legs, how about sled pulls/pushes, sprints up hiii?
    jemhh wrote: »
    Have you worked with a physical therapist or other specialist? You're really young and have already had knee reconstructions. I know that you're only asking for people's experiences, not lifting advice, but if you are open to advice, I'd suggest working with trainer who really knows about this kind of thing.
    I have actually been to PT many times I forgot to mention. It helped somewhat but not so much. Maybe I just need to go back and build a solid foundation.

  • youngmomtaz
    youngmomtaz Posts: 1,075 Member
    I would fine a different pt. I am a massage therapist and if my clients tell me what you just did about their pt I would find them another. Ask around, call offices, you need someone who is going to assess your rehab needs as well as addressing the gains you want to make. ATM, I second the glute bridges, and continuing with body weight work is a good idea. But You need to do some work to find some educated assistance. That will get you way farther in your training than winging it.
  • AllanMisner
    AllanMisner Posts: 4,140 Member
    edited January 2016
    You can use leg press, but you still have to be careful with the feet position and knee tracking to avoid re-injuring the knees. Have you tried front squats? It requires you to be much more upright and you’ll likely use less weight, especially at first.

    Allan Misner
    NASM Certified Personal Trainer (Corrective Exercise Specialist, Fitness Nutrition Specialist)
    Host of the 40+ Fitness Podcast
  • Da_Chozen_Juan
    Da_Chozen_Juan Posts: 37 Member
    AllanMisner wrote: »
    You can use leg press, but you still have to be careful with the feet position and knee tracking to avoid re-injuring the knees. Have you tried front squats? It requires you to be much more upright and you’ll likely use less weight, especially at first.

    Allan Misner
    NASM Certified Personal Trainer (Corrective Exercise Specialist, Fitness Nutrition Specialist)
    Host of the 40+ Fitness Podcast

    I have actually and I absolutely hated them lol. I simply didn't have enough dorsi flexion and wrist mobility to execute them properly. Also I think my quads are way weaker than my hips/glutes which is why I found the back squat somewhat easier than the FS.
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    cafeaulait7 wrote: »
    I have extremely hypermobile kneecaps that never stay in place, so I don't squat. Glute bridges work great, though, so I do those with a barbell. Those hit a lot of leg muscles in the posterior chain, anyway.

    @cafeaulait7 - I have knee issues as well. How'd you start your weighted glute briges - weights, reps? Where are you at now?
  • AllanMisner
    AllanMisner Posts: 4,140 Member
    Da_Chozen_Juan wrote: »
    AllanMisner wrote: »
    You can use leg press, but you still have to be careful with the feet position and knee tracking to avoid re-injuring the knees. Have you tried front squats? It requires you to be much more upright and you’ll likely use less weight, especially at first.

    Allan Misner
    NASM Certified Personal Trainer (Corrective Exercise Specialist, Fitness Nutrition Specialist)
    Host of the 40+ Fitness Podcast

    I have actually and I absolutely hated them lol. I simply didn't have enough dorsi flexion and wrist mobility to execute them properly. Also I think my quads are way weaker than my hips/glutes which is why I found the back squat somewhat easier than the FS.

    I think you just figured out why your knees were injured. You should work to even out the strength of your quads and posterior chain. Mobility can be addressed (and I do still cross my arms vs clean style when I go heavier). If you cannot do front squats, I wouldn’t have you doing back squats either.

    Allan Misner
    NASM Certified Personal Trainer (Corrective Exercise Specialist, Fitness Nutrition Specialist)
    Host of the 40+ Fitness Podcast
  • Da_Chozen_Juan
    Da_Chozen_Juan Posts: 37 Member
    AllanMisner wrote: »
    Da_Chozen_Juan wrote: »
    AllanMisner wrote: »
    You can use leg press, but you still have to be careful with the feet position and knee tracking to avoid re-injuring the knees. Have you tried front squats? It requires you to be much more upright and you’ll likely use less weight, especially at first.

    Allan Misner
    NASM Certified Personal Trainer (Corrective Exercise Specialist, Fitness Nutrition Specialist)
    Host of the 40+ Fitness Podcast

    I have actually and I absolutely hated them lol. I simply didn't have enough dorsi flexion and wrist mobility to execute them properly. Also I think my quads are way weaker than my hips/glutes which is why I found the back squat somewhat easier than the FS.

    I think you just figured out why your knees were injured. You should work to even out the strength of your quads and posterior chain. Mobility can be addressed (and I do still cross my arms vs clean style when I go heavier). If you cannot do front squats, I wouldn’t have you doing back squats either.

    Allan Misner
    NASM Certified Personal Trainer (Corrective Exercise Specialist, Fitness Nutrition Specialist)
    Host of the 40+ Fitness Podcast

    No yea I'm sure that's why my knees give out still, due to the imbalance of strength in my posterior chain. I'm going to take a break from barbell squats either way but not DL's (fav exercise), to focus on that. Besides straight leg raises (because I already do them) and FS, what would you recommend to isolate the quads more?
  • cafeaulait7
    cafeaulait7 Posts: 2,459 Member
    edited January 2016
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    cafeaulait7 wrote: »
    I have extremely hypermobile kneecaps that never stay in place, so I don't squat. Glute bridges work great, though, so I do those with a barbell. Those hit a lot of leg muscles in the posterior chain, anyway.

    @cafeaulait7 - I have knee issues as well. How'd you start your weighted glute briges - weights, reps? Where are you at now?

    I started ages ago at 1-legged bodyweight ones and now I'm at 100 lbs, but I haven't progressed on weight since the late fall (when I'm sure I'm supposed to --just lazy ;) ). I do 4x12 at the moment, with a several other glute exercises I like done after. I really should go to 4x8 at the next weight level. I generally increase reps from 8-12 first before increasing weight (partially because my barbell is a real pain to change the weight on, lol). I haven't noticed any problems (in looks or measurements) with maintaining here, but of course I can't look to progress if I'm not progressing! But they don't hurt my knees at all (just the hipbones).

    ETA: I started with 2 sets of 8 at 1-legged bodyweight. They were hard to do 2 sets for me, but I'd do more when starting out if they weren't hard. The 1-legged ones keep the pelvis so you can't cheat, so they are important to try to do to see real glute strength, imho.
  • 883xlsportster
    883xlsportster Posts: 221 Member
    My situation is very different from yours but.... ;-) I have moderate to high knee pain after back squats. I'm almost certain its my form with my knees tracking forward beyond my toes. I can't seem to correct it so I have started Bulgarian Split Squats. After 2 leg days thus far I don't have near the discomfort and my knees never go past my toes. Much less weight mind you. Maybe something to try?


  • Da_Chozen_Juan
    Da_Chozen_Juan Posts: 37 Member
    883xlsportster wrote: »
    My situation is very different from yours but.... ;-) I have moderate to high knee pain after back squats. I'm almost certain its my form with my knees tracking forward beyond my toes. I can't seem to correct it so I have started Bulgarian Split Squats. After 2 leg days thus far I don't have near the discomfort and my knees never go past my toes. Much less weight mind you. Maybe something to try?

    Yea my situation is a genetic plague that my grandfather passed down to me, unfortunately enough. I actually have heard that unilateral leg work is potentially just as beneficial as bilateral squats. I am definitely going to add those to my program. Are you doing those with high reps leaning towards hyper trophy, or moderate to low reps for strength?
  • 883xlsportster
    883xlsportster Posts: 221 Member
    edited January 2016
    Da_Chozen_Juan wrote: »
    Yea my situation is a genetic plague that my grandfather passed down to me, unfortunately enough. I actually have heard that unilateral leg work is potentially just as beneficial as bilateral squats. I am definitely going to add those to my program. Are you doing those with high reps leaning towards hyper trophy, or moderate to low reps for strength?

    Yes sir. I'm trying for some middle age hypertrophy after a 25 year layoff ;-) I'm having good results with progressive overloads for most lifts. Most but not all due to joint pain. Quad work will be high rep, light weight. It's easy to make a mind muscle connection with it so getting a squeeze and contraction should help. Time will tell. I have a basic home gym setup so don't have access to a leg press. Curious to hear if people with knee issues find it better?
    Bench is out for me too. I've gone to floor press to ease up on the cuffs.
  • Da_Chozen_Juan
    Da_Chozen_Juan Posts: 37 Member
    I personally find the leg press to be fairly knee friendly. Oh I see, maybe you flared your elbows out a little too much when you benched?
  • 883xlsportster
    883xlsportster Posts: 221 Member
    Da_Chozen_Juan wrote: »
    I personally find the leg press to be fairly knee friendly. Oh I see, maybe you flared your elbows out a little too much when you benched?
    Rotator cuff injury from 1992. Heavy military press behind the neck. No red flags about that lift back then as today.
    DOH!!
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