Help - trying to get to racing weight
gearsgirl16
Posts: 6 Member
I'm a triathlete, presently training for the Eagleman 70.3 in june. I'm on a three week training cycle where I get a rest workout (very light spin) for two mondays, and then the 3rd monday is an actual day off. I am trying to get from my present weight (~127lbs at 5'2") down to a racing weight of 115lbs. However, I'm stubbornly stuck around 127lbs, with major fluctuations on a day to day basis. (one day i'm 125, next day i'm 130.) I have PCOS, if anyone has any experience with that. I'm eating about 1600-1700 cal per day, with ~100g of protein. I can't cut calories anymore because my workouts start to suffer pretty heavily. Does anyone have any suggestions? or experience dealing with this type of plateau?
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Replies
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Are you logging your food here?
How do you measure? ie do you weigh your food?
How long have you been stuck at 127?
Why 115?
Have you checked out the book Racing Weight?0 -
It's not easy, especially when deficits are usually counter-productive to performance increase. Look in the mirror - are you LEAN or are you pudgy soft? Do you actually have 10-20 lbs of FAT to lose? If you really can't tell, take a selfie and post up - you'll get some opinions that way.
But ultimately the only way to tell what your ideal race weight is, is to lose, race, lose, race and when your times start getting worse, you lost too much. It's also very very hard compared to the first 10+ lbs lost.
Also expect to lose 0 weight in the 12 weeks leading up to the event. Pre-season is weight loss time.
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It's not easy, especially when deficits are usually counter-productive to performance increase. Look in the mirror - are you LEAN or are you pudgy soft? Do you actually have 10-20 lbs of FAT to lose? If you really can't tell, take a selfie and post up - you'll get some opinions that way.
But ultimately the only way to tell what your ideal race weight is, is to lose, race, lose, race and when your times start getting worse, you lost too much. It's also very very hard compared to the first 10+ lbs lost.
That's one thing that Racing Weight talks about - not hitting a particular number (although it does give guidelines to finding what your number might be) but finding that point where you perform best at.0 -
How long have you been eating 1600-1700 cals?
How long have you been stuck?
What are your other macros? I tried to look at your diary, but it's locked.0 -
3dogsrunning wrote: »Are you logging your food here?
How do you measure? ie do you weigh your food?
How long have you been stuck at 127?
Why 115?
Have you checked out the book Racing Weight?
This! I know when I'm eating healthy I'd say the same things as the OP "I'm eating 1500 calories a day, blah blah blah". But then I go back and look at my food diary. Actually I had 2200 on Saturday. And 1800 that other day. And 1600 a couple times. All that averages out, I wasn't really eating 1500 a day every day.
Weighing food - this is crucial. Every time I don't weigh, I don't lose weight or as much as I should. Probably because my logging is inaccurate.
Stuck - sometimes it feels like we're stuck when we really aren't. At your weight, the safest you should probably be losing is .5 lb a week. So that's 2 lbs a month. It's slow enough that if you aren't logging accurately, that can be down to 1 lb a month or nothing at all. And then it can feel like you're stuck. Agree with gdyment above though, in-season is probably not a great time to be losing weight, your performance will suffer. Maybe just work on logging better, eating in a way that works for you and fuels your runs.0 -
The pin for my diary is 1894. I'll go change it to unlocked eventually. To answer questions:
1.) I've been stuck at 127 for about 2 months now.
2.) I weigh/measure my food religiously. I'm also all about the protein.
3.) I love the racing weight cook book. Love.
4.) I actually increased my caloric intake a few weeks ago. Training ramped up from an endurance/base building phase to a power building phase. I was eating about 1400/day and was constantly light headed, hungry, and my workouts were suffering. I was starting to worry about driving because I was having dizzy spells (drinking more water didn't help, it just made me pee more).
5.) what's really been bothering me is the massive water weight fluctuations. I have no idea why i'm seeing a 5lb difference from day to day, and seeing 130 on the scale when I KNOW its not right is really upsetting. Pictures will be up shortly.
Edit: pictures! Which, i suck at taking. My selfie game is not strong.
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If you are religious on weighing your food and accurately logging everything, the next place to look is your calories out. Some of your burns for your bike rides look suspiciously high. Like your bike ride on January 30th. 1465 calories in a little over 2 hours is a HARD effort. At your weight, that would be a similar cardiovascular effort to running a sub 7 minute miles for over 2 hours.
The calorie requirements spit out of MFP may be a bit high for you as well. The calorie goals are based on population averages, but they vary from individual to individual. You may have to adjust them downwards. PCOS can affect this. Also, I've heard of others with PCOS having more success doing a lower carbohydrate diet. It's anecdotal still, but it may be worth a try.0 -
I looked back through the last week or so of your diary and you've got big deficits every day... always over 500 cals, a few times over 1000 cals. I can see why your workouts are suffering and you've battled light headedness at times.
The problem is that too few cals contradicts the stall you're experiencing.
I don't know anything about PCOS, but taking things at face value, you've got the basics covered. I'd do some more research on PCOS, or talk to people who have been successful at losing weight AND doing longer endurance type cardio workouts with PCOS and see if they have any suggestions.
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I've long since stopped trying to understand Training Peaks and Garmin. I don't vary my diet based on what they say I burned calorie-wise, because I agree... those numbers are suspiciously high. The workout on saturday was an interval workout on a kickr (a type of direct drive bike trainer that allows you to control the resistance.), with about a third to half of the practice being done at 90-125% of my FTP (it felt like I was going to die. Good for me, but miserable). The estimated calorie burn for the majority of my bike workouts is between 500 and 800 (according to training peaks). Not to say that its accurate, but its slightly more reasonable.
PCOS does require a lower carb diet. But, endurance training usually requires a higher carb diet- for 7-8 hours of training per week at 127 lbs, Racing Weight would have me eating 3.25-3.75g carbs/lb, which comes out to be a minimum of 412 g carbs per day. I haven't been able to find any research on balancing PCOS while training for something like a half iron triathlon, though I'm always looking.0 -
All my opinion, but I don't see an easy 12-15 lbs of fat to lose - not without losing some quad/hams and lats too. You have a swimmer physique (butterfly probably?) - good for swim and bike, but run will take hard work.
I would suggest you NOT run a deficit on off-days. Hit 1700-1900. Then on workout days shoot for 500 under. Always eat something after a workout. Nothing after 7 unless you workout. Unless you have a power meter, scale the bike burns WAY back. Like 15/20 cal per km. A 6 hr 180km bike though 3000m of elevation change doesn't burn 3000 cals.
Running is usually less as well - try the 1cal/kg/km weight roughly. You can pick the myfitness activity to match but it's usually slower than you'd think. 600-750 an hour if you're racing for instance. Running 5-6 days a week (even short 3-5km runs) will make a pretty big difference as well.
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You, sir, are correct. I started life as swimmer - Distance freestyle and open water (yeah 5k!
) Ironically enough though, I love running (and am better at it than biking). Because I am 5'2", my bike has the smaller 650cc wheels. Recent bike workouts have been done on a kickr (so I do have power) because my area is under several feet of snow right now, making outside rides unsafe/impossible. I will keep the math in mind though, for when I hit the trail and for runs.
For curiosity's sake, why would I not run a deficit on off days?0 -
gearsgirl16 wrote: »For curiosity's sake, why would I not run a deficit on off days?
Personally I find it too hard to eat less on off days. Your off days are meant for rest and repairing your body. If you run a deficit on an off day you might be restricting vital nutrients your body needs to recover from training.
Sadly the training required for long distance events like marathons, half and full ironman also requires you to fuel your body properly, which can make it impossible to drop weight without sacrificing training quality. You can try to run a slight deficit on days you train, but on rest days your really need to make sure your body is getting what it needs to repair.0 -
gearsgirl16 wrote: »PCOS does require a lower carb diet. But, endurance training usually requires a higher carb diet- for 7-8 hours of training per week at 127 lbs, Racing Weight would have me eating 3.25-3.75g carbs/lb, which comes out to be a minimum of 412 g carbs per day. I haven't been able to find any research on balancing PCOS while training for something like a half iron triathlon, though I'm always looking.
There is a PCOS group here on MFP which might be helpful in your research. I have several friends who have it, but they are concentrated on weight training, not endurance training.
Yes, unfortunately those two are at odds with each other. Some endurance athletes eat quite a lot of fat and still perform well, so it might at least be worth a try to play around with your intake and see where it goes. I personally eat a higher fat/more moderate carbohydrate diet than the race weight guidelines. At 5'10" and 150 lbs, I average close to 400g carbs/day at 7-8 hours of running a week.
Your running calorie counts did look reasonable to me. I use the formula: (weight in lbs) x (distance in miles) x 0.63 = (net calories burned) for my burns, and it's been accurate for me.0 -
I have no advice to offer... but your effort sounds similar to what I've gone through in the past.
Below is from a cycling perspective... rocks swim better than I... running? not even sure what that is.
At 5'6" my BMI said that I was overweight at 160. I desperately wanted to get down to 145-150 which was high on the 'normal' side of the chart. I saw this as a way to improve my power to weight ratio and was only considering the benefits. I worked my *kitten* off to get down to and was able to sustain 145-147 for a little more than a month. The entire time I was there, my performance/endurance suffered.
During races, my MHR could easily get over 200bpm and I was struggling to get to 190bpm. My average of 182-185bpm fell 10-15bpm as well. I'd lost my top end and as a result, I couldn't climb and I couldn't sprint... After racing, recovery seemed to take days longer. At my normal weight I felt like I just needed a day away... but it was taking 2 or 3 days to get back to feeling 'just ok'.
I may have been able to train past the suck... but I didn't even try. Well... not true. I did go to my physician and ask for advise... he said to gain back the weight. After that little experiment and not much consideration, I went on to gain back 10 pounds. It was like clouds parting. Since then, I've never tried it again.
Thought 1
I am a little chubby around the middle when I'm around 160. It looks like I could lose some weight... and now I know what happens when I do. If I didn't cycle, I could have probably been happy in the upper 140's.
Thought 2
I am not at all saying you can't do it or you won't be able to train past it... Just sharing a little about what I went through. In hindsight, maybe I should have given it more effort OR I should have tried to lose the weight outside of the season (this was about near the middle). Do I regret giving up (cause that is what I did)? Maybe a little. I liked how I looked... I just didn't like how I felt.
Good luck and have great/safe race.0 -
thanks
I'm aiming to get down to 115 because that's where I was when I performed my best (granted, as a teenager), especially before the PCOS kicked in and I gained 40+ pounds. Fortunately I've lost a lot of that, but I really want to get back to my pre-PCOS state. The one saving grace is that between the hyper-androgenic effects of PCOS and being an athlete from a very young age - I build muscle very easily.
Also, I don't like my present proximity to 130lbs - over ~130, i start experiencing knee pain while running and generally feeling very bloated and uncomfortable. If I can get down to 115 (or even 120), my power to weight ratio will be a good bit higher (FTP on the bike is 180-190 watts right now).
What was your diet like when you got to your goal weight?0 -
For me, the line between awesome performance and utter ruin on the course is only a couple lbs. I am sitting at 150 right now but I race best at 145. If I get down to 143 though that's too low and I go slower. I am only 5'7" so it's not like 145 is all that light for someone my height but it is where I race best. I need to figure out if it is worth trying to knock down those 5lbs or not given that my next A-race is only 14 weeks out (Ironman Texas).
Triathlon, especially the longer ones, requires you to be able to sustain your effort for a good number of hours, which requires some fuel storage capacity (muscle glycogen, etc), but you also don't want to be carrying around too much extra "you" all around the course.
115 might actually be too low for you at your current age (although your profile says you are 22 so maybe not necessarily). But really the trick is to keep losing weight until your performance actually noticeably suffers, then gain a couple lbs. You very well might be there now, and looking at your pix you certainly don't *need* to lose any weight.
Is Eagleman going to be your first half? If not, do your training speeds/paces line up with what you were able to do for the last one?0 -
gearsgirl16 wrote: »What was your diet like when you got to your goal weight?
I don't remember specifics. I was riding 4-5 days a week, 40-60 a day and racing MTB every other weekend. My HRM indicated that I was burning through a ton of calories and I *think* I was eating 75% back plus my 2K calorie diet.
Oatmeal, fruit and nuts for breakfast, probably a +/-1K calorie lunch and then another 1K+ dinner.... minimum. Not including snacks or food while riding. I wasn't super serious about my diet as much as I was about monitoring my weight. Always tried to feed proper before an event.0 -
With the bases covered on your food intake, the only thing left to figure out is your calorie burns.
I also agree that for me I tend to have my deficit on a hard training day and then eat more the days after. It's my natural hunger cues and really for me makes more sense as far as recovery goes too. I often feel like I could eat "everything" after a hard workout, but in reality it often doesn't take that much food to fill me up and get me into recovery mode.
As for the fluctuations, have you done anything lately that is major changes in workout routines? I tend to fluctuate more when I add more or higher levels of strength biased training. I can only assume that it's glycogen stores that cause it, but it could just be the added food levels at times.0 -
For me, the line between awesome performance and utter ruin on the course is only a couple lbs. I am sitting at 150 right now but I race best at 145. If I get down to 143 though that's too low and I go slower. I am only 5'7" so it's not like 145 is all that light for someone my height but it is where I race best. I need to figure out if it is worth trying to knock down those 5lbs or not given that my next A-race is only 14 weeks out (Ironman Texas).
Triathlon, especially the longer ones, requires you to be able to sustain your effort for a good number of hours, which requires some fuel storage capacity (muscle glycogen, etc), but you also don't want to be carrying around too much extra "you" all around the course.
115 might actually be too low for you at your current age (although your profile says you are 22 so maybe not necessarily). But really the trick is to keep losing weight until your performance actually noticeably suffers, then gain a couple lbs. You very well might be there now, and looking at your pix you certainly don't *need* to lose any weight.
Is Eagleman going to be your first half? If not, do your training speeds/paces line up with what you were able to do for the last one?
Good post. Fully agree.0 -
gearsgirl16 wrote: »I'm a triathlete, presently training for the Eagleman 70.3 in june. I'm on a three week training cycle where I get a rest workout (very light spin) for two mondays, and then the 3rd monday is an actual day off. I am trying to get from my present weight (~127lbs at 5'2") down to a racing weight of 115lbs. However, I'm stubbornly stuck around 127lbs, with major fluctuations on a day to day basis. (one day i'm 125, next day i'm 130.) I have PCOS, if anyone has any experience with that. I'm eating about 1600-1700 cal per day, with ~100g of protein. I can't cut calories anymore because my workouts start to suffer pretty heavily. Does anyone have any suggestions? or experience dealing with this type of plateau?
I don't know about PCOS, but certainly see the issue of training and trying to lose weight at the same time as an issue where one or the other is going to suffer. You are trying to lose, but your body needs the fuel to complete the training and recover.
The study quoted in Matt Fitzgerald's book Racing Weight about losing weight while training doesn't bode well for any performance gains.
Trying to do both at the same time (lose weight and improve through interval training) resulted in no gain in performance compared to the other two groups (weight loss alone, or interval training alone). Based on that study of a 10 week training program, it certainly suggests that your best potential gains would come from losing the weight first, then initiating the interval training 10 week segment (or whatever time frame). I'm sure we could conjure up all types of scenarios, but I remember reading the book two years ago and that sticking out in my mind.
Again, the link to the study that Matt quotes in his book is right HERE.
I've been dealing a bit with this myself. I front loaded the weight loss (weight I gained in the off season) before I launched into my structured training, but didn't quite hit my race weight number. That has left me at the beginning of base trying to lose a pound a week. I managed to shed most of what I gained before I began the structured training, but have 5 more pounds to go to hit what my ideal racing weight has been in the past. I'm in the 6th Week of my 12 week base plan and am already facing diminishing returns as intensity and duration are stacking up each week to the point that trying to lose weight at the same time is not going to lead to much help.
You are trying to lose 9% of your body weight, and Matt Fitzgerald talks about the 8% rule (never gain more than 8% in the off season).
You may have to readjust your goals and let your body settle into what it wants to for this season. Trying to trim off a pound a week for the next 12 weeks from your 127 down to 125 is going to rob you of performance gains you need to reach your peak for the June race. Or back off on the intensity now, cut the weight that you can with a calorie deficit for the next few weeks in hopes of getting down into the low 120's - and then fire up the intensity again to reach your peak.
Regardless, that study is pretty telling.
The fluctuation between 125 and 130 is water retention, poop, etc. and is normal. We all experience that.
Bust through a plateau?
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/6-tips-pushing-weight-loss-plateau/?utm_source=mfp&utm_medium=Facebook0 -
Obviously this thread is only specific - or of interest - to those of us who race (runners, cyclists, triathletes). Finding that "ideal racing weight" can be a bit of trial and error. I know I had it two years ago, but did not have it last season as a 5-8 pound difference (heavier) zapped me - especially on the climbs. So I am adjusting back to what was more "ideal" during the 2014 season.
I will follow this post up after this weekend's Power and HR Performance Test.
Why? Just to see if my results are the same as the study cited in the above post.
Considering I have lost 10 pounds during the past two months, and have been in structured base training during that weight loss with plenty of intervals - the results should show that I will not have improved my FTP since the prior test 6 weeks ago if the study I cited from Fitzgerald's book is correct. That being - the results should put me in the category of losing weight and trying to improve through interval training resulted in no gain in performance.
I'll be okay with that knowing that I am closing in on my targeted weight loss goal for my "ideal racing weight" and have time to turn around the performance gains once I the weight loss stops in a few weeks. For someone who has a shorter time frame before an upcoming event and is considering losing weight during the period they need to be bumping up the intensity, it may or may not illustrate the lack of benefits of cutting while training. Not that anyone will read this thread, but you never know if it will turn up in somebody's search down the road...0
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