To my brethren and sistren* converted from deep and woo
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lemurcat12 wrote: »...I get the sense that to some expressing any disagreement or correcting inaccuracies or asking questions is seen as mean or improper, and I find that extremely puzzling and, really, an enemy of the idea that free discussion is a good way to get at the truth (which I still idealistically believe in, silly me).
Anybody who's been on MFP for a while has seen plenty of the threads where somebody posts about a juice cleanse, detox, 30-day water fast, etc. and is repeatedly told that it's a bad idea, provided links to peer-reviewed studies showing that it's a bad idea, and their reply is "I THOUGHT THIS WAS A PLACE FOR SUPPORT WE'RE ALL HERE FOR THE SAME THING!!!11!!!1!". Sometimes followed by a "Mean People Suck" thread and/or a ragequit.
For some, "support" means unconditional approval no matter how bad or ridiculous the idea is - the embodiment of the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality. I don't think that kind of "support" accomplishes anything positive. Telling somebody "Yay, go you!" when they're on the wrong path isn't helpful at all. Nor is it helpful to offer some mealy-mouthed platitude like "Well, we're all different so maybe it will work for you" (omitting the part about "it hasn't worked for thousands of others and science has shown it's a crock"). I think it's better to get the truth out there - even if the OP can't handle it, at least maybe somebody else who reads the thread further down the line may 'get it'.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »People can believe all the woo they want, but what frustrates me is when people ask me how I've done what I've done and they reject my honest answers while indirectly or outright calling me a liar.
- "How did you get so thin?" I exercise and eat at a calorie deficit. "Oh don't tell me that, I go to the gym and haven't lost a pound!" Are you eating less calories than you burn? "I don't eat much." Oh, okay then.
- "Oh you're not going to eat any cake." Actually, I love cake. I'll have a piece, thanks! "Are you going to vomit it up later?"
- "You count calories? Oh, my life is far too busy for that. I don't have the time to do something like that." I guess my life isn't busy at all then, huh?
The problem is that many people want the results without accepting that it takes work to get there. No, there has to be some secret that only a few people are privy to and it's being hidden from the rest of the world. Many people don't want to accept that they eat too much or aren't active enough. They aren't willing to exercise during the week or keep tabs on their food intake, but they're willing to invest hundreds in miracle pills, creams, and diet plans that accomplish absolutely nothing. You can't have the "beach body" without putting in the time and effort it takes to achieve that goal.
When I get asked how I lost all the weight so fast and I give them similar answers they just tend to look very disappointed. They seem to be hoping I found some secret I could share or some product that performs miracles. People rarely want to hear that's it's a time consuming and often difficult process.
I get this a lot too, and I used to be surprised, but the more time I spend on these forums the more I realize that there is a huge gap between what people think successful weight loss looks like, and what actually needs to happen.
At least the real life conversations don't usually devolve into the person getting totally defensive, white knights don't swoop in to save the day, and there are less mean people discussions that result from the initial conversation where the person didn't like what we had to say...
I support you.0 -
juggernaut1974 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
I get the sense that to some expressing any disagreement or correcting inaccuracies or asking questions is seen as mean or improper, and I find that extremely puzzling and, really, an enemy of the idea that free discussion is a good way to get at the truth (which I still idealistically believe in, silly me).
I couldn't possibly agree more. On a site that purports as it's purpose to help people meet their health and fitness goals, this has always baffled me.
Contrary to popular belief, some ideas are really just plain stupid. And while I will never call another person on this site stupid, pointing out that stupid ideas are stupid (or derp, or woo, or whatever terminology you prefer) should be encouraged, not shamed.
I don't think it's the disagreement, it's the "I'm right, you're wrong, so there" attitude.
What makes any of us the arbiter of what is stupid? You don't know someone else's belief system or point of reference.
Right now there are threads saying kale is stupid, turmeric is stupid, hot water with lemon is stupid, Walk Away The Pounds is stupid, WW is stupid, it probably goes on and on. I mean, choose not use it, say you don't use it or find benefit, but is it necessary to call it stupid or imply it's stupid to those who do find benefit and use it? No one's saying they are crucial to weight loss or anything. Different things help different people.0 -
If you choose to be insulted by the phrase "kale is stupid"...well, that's clearly on you0
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xkcd0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »...I get the sense that to some expressing any disagreement or correcting inaccuracies or asking questions is seen as mean or improper, and I find that extremely puzzling and, really, an enemy of the idea that free discussion is a good way to get at the truth (which I still idealistically believe in, silly me).
Anybody who's been on MFP for a while has seen plenty of the threads where somebody posts about a juice cleanse, detox, 30-day water fast, etc. and is repeatedly told that it's a bad idea, provided links to peer-reviewed studies showing that it's a bad idea, and their reply is "I THOUGHT THIS WAS A PLACE FOR SUPPORT WE'RE ALL HERE FOR THE SAME THING!!!11!!!1!". Sometimes followed by a "Mean People Suck" thread and/or a ragequit.
For some, "support" means unconditional approval no matter how bad or ridiculous the idea is - the embodiment of the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality. I don't think that kind of "support" accomplishes anything positive. Telling somebody "Yay, go you!" when they're on the wrong path isn't helpful at all. Nor is it helpful to offer some mealy-mouthed platitude like "Well, we're all different so maybe it will work for you" (omitting the part about "it hasn't worked for thousands of others and science has shown it's a crock"). I think it's better to get the truth out there - even if the OP can't handle it, at least maybe somebody else who reads the thread further down the line may 'get it'.
So much this0 -
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WalkingAlong wrote: »
No I didn't
To a thread espousing the amazing virtues of kale I postedNope
It's just greens
Used to be cheap cattle fodder until it was picked up as a "superfood"
One born every minute
referring to the people who buy into the magical properties of a food.
Now, why you have taken offence at what I've said on another thread enough to bring it into this one is again over to you - or are you trying to get me to react negatively to you? As the reaction would then be clearly on me, I shall choose to rise above it
As an aside you may wish to consider the usage of 'ironic' because you appear to have fallen for the Alanis Morrisette school of thought there
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I haven't taken offense.
I don't think the thread espoused magical properties of kale. Though the OP did say it was awesome and the thread title was in effect asking who liked it. Maybe that implies magical properties. Magic seems to get thrown around a lot here, when someone doesn't like something.
This thread is about the insulting things said in other threads.0 -
Actually the OP started this thread about the real world not other threads
And referenced my previous advice specifically
*smiles and nods*prettysoul1908 wrote: »I'm curious to know how you react when you're around friends or families or coworkers who are spreading woo.
Do you:
A. Smile and nod (thanks rabbitjb)
B. Call them out
C. Leave the convo
If you call people out, how do they handle it?
I'm finding people are really resistant to letting go of their woo beliefs. Personally I was RELIEVED to find out that crap was fake. Lol.
What's your experience?
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WalkingAlong wrote: »juggernaut1974 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
I get the sense that to some expressing any disagreement or correcting inaccuracies or asking questions is seen as mean or improper, and I find that extremely puzzling and, really, an enemy of the idea that free discussion is a good way to get at the truth (which I still idealistically believe in, silly me).
I couldn't possibly agree more. On a site that purports as it's purpose to help people meet their health and fitness goals, this has always baffled me.
Contrary to popular belief, some ideas are really just plain stupid. And while I will never call another person on this site stupid, pointing out that stupid ideas are stupid (or derp, or woo, or whatever terminology you prefer) should be encouraged, not shamed.
I don't think it's the disagreement, it's the "I'm right, you're wrong, so there" attitude.
What makes any of us the arbiter of what is stupid? You don't know someone else's belief system or point of reference.
Right now there are threads saying kale is stupid, turmeric is stupid, hot water with lemon is stupid, Walk Away The Pounds is stupid, WW is stupid, it probably goes on and on. I mean, choose not use it, say you don't use it or find benefit, but is it necessary to call it stupid or imply it's stupid to those who do find benefit and use it? No one's saying they are crucial to weight loss or anything. Different things help different people.
And yet, absolute relativism is stupid. (see what I did there.)
The idea that "it is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it," cuts both ways. I hold the constant expectation that people have the ability to look at opposing ideas and inspect their worth. Surely a certain amount of reflection allows one to take a certain distance and be accepting that a variety of solutions work for a variety of people. It does not mean you turn in your cognitive ability to consider that some strategies are sub-optimal and other things are quite literally stupid. I also expect that one would value knowledge, education and experience as, not absolute arbiters of truth, but as tools which can help in a decision process.
Please do not surrender your intelligence to empty phrases like "everyone is different" because all they are is comical anti-intellectual arguments to avoid looking at a thing in depth. To understand if true, how so.
Things like the tapeworm diet, chewing diets, sedation diet (sleeping pills to prevent you from eating), ear staples, fat dissolving soaps... are all snake oil, some dangerously so and they are stupid. And you should have the high responsibility to be critical about what you do to your body, what you recommend. So while there are many paths and a variety of successful methods - it is also perfectly ok to call out incorrect concepts in method, poor explanation and low 'science'. It doesn't mean someone eating a diet different from mine is wrong. However, their explanation about how it cures cancer, is the only way, is magical can certainly be looked at critical.
Everyone is NOT so different.
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determined24girl wrote: »I get ignored. I told a friend of mine about MFP and how I was having great results, she said she would get the app. and start using it, never did. I asked her why she hadn't once and she just said that counting calories wasn't her thing. She then went on to say that she didn't think she ate that much anyway. I nearly died when she said she was going to try that diet where you only eat like an egg, some crackers, and drink only green tea for 3 to 5 days...
"The military diet"...aka "starve for three days and of course you'll lose weight." The whole thing is designed to allow about 700-900 calories a day. That's as bad as the master cleanse.
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I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.0
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thatshistorical wrote: »I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.
"Deep" is a typo for "derp," which is a term used occasionally by my 13-year-old son and his friends. They use it usually as an adjective for something that is silly or ridiculous. "Woo" is used to mean something tricksy/deceptive, as far as I can tell.
ETA, @WalkingAlong Thank you for making excellent points.0 -
A good sign of what?thatshistorical wrote: »I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.
It's better to keep it that way. You're not missing much and the fact that you don't use these non-words is a good sign. Oh, and the funny thing is that "deep" is misspelled in this thread to begin with.
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WalkingAlong wrote: »Right now there are threads saying kale is stupid, turmeric is stupid, hot water with lemon is stupid, Walk Away The Pounds is stupid, WW is stupid, it probably goes on and on. I mean, choose not use it, say you don't use it or find benefit, but is it necessary to call it stupid or imply it's stupid to those who do find benefit and use it? No one's saying they are crucial to weight loss or anything. Different things help different people.
Funny..I just searched both the kale and the hot water with lemon thread, and guess how many times the word "stupid" was used. ZERO. Since you obviously lied about those two instances, I didn't bother continuing on with any other threads.WalkingAlong wrote: »
I also searched the kale thread for the word "suckers". I did get one hit there, but it was YOU who used that word.
ProTip: When you have to completely make things up in an attempt to make a point, next time I'd try to consider whether or not it's a point worth making.0 -
I can't even get mad at them for trying. I know that before I starting eating well and exercising regularly, I also believed in magic pills and mythical methods of losing weight. All you can do is smile and wish them the best. When people ask me how I lost weight, when I tell them that it is through diet and exercise, they look at me like I'm lying. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink; you can give them the right answers, but it is up to them to take the advice. Maybe one day, they too will get the "aha moment" that led us to use MFP!0
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Just for kicks and giggles I searched the tumeric thread for "stupid" too..
Well, I'm sure most (probably all) know how many instances that turned up...
Yes, excellent (completely fabricated) points as usual!0 -
thatshistorical wrote: »I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.
It's better to keep it that way. You're not missing much and the fact that you don't use these non-words is a good sign. Oh, and the funny thing is that "deep" is misspelled in this thread to begin with.
Have you read any Shakespeare? It's full of newly coined words. You probably know that. Language evolves whether we like it or not. Best to stay open for the sake of effective communication. I have never spoken the words derp and woo. I am too old and would look foolish. But for the sake of internet communication, its good to stay up on it. Thank you Urban Dictionary."0 -
thatshistorical wrote: »I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.
It's better to keep it that way. You're not missing much and the fact that you don't use these non-words is a good sign. Oh, and the funny thing is that "deep" is misspelled in this thread to begin with.
That's likely due to the OP using a phone with autocorrect. That happens a lot for phone users.0 -
soulofgrace wrote: »thatshistorical wrote: »I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.
It's better to keep it that way. You're not missing much and the fact that you don't use these non-words is a good sign. Oh, and the funny thing is that "deep" is misspelled in this thread to begin with.
Have you read any Shakespeare? It's full of newly coined words. You probably know that. Language evolves whether we like it or not. Best to stay open for the sake of effective communication. I have never spoken the words derp and woo. I am too old and would look foolish. But for the sake of internet communication, its good to stay up on it. Thank you Urban Dictionary."
Shakespeare was a master of word invention
Also the word 'derp' as I mentioned above has already made it into the Oxford Dictionary - in fact it entered 3 years ago, so it's not exactly new
I love how organic language is
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soulofgrace wrote: »thatshistorical wrote: »I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.
It's better to keep it that way. You're not missing much and the fact that you don't use these non-words is a good sign. Oh, and the funny thing is that "deep" is misspelled in this thread to begin with.
Have you read any Shakespeare? It's full of newly coined words. You probably know that. Language evolves whether we like it or not. Best to stay open for the sake of effective communication. I have never spoken the words derp and woo. I am too old and would look foolish. But for the sake of internet communication, its good to stay up on it. Thank you Urban Dictionary."
Shakespeare was a master of word invention
Also the word 'derp' as I mentioned above has already made it into the Oxford Dictionary - in fact it entered 3 years ago, so it's not exactly new
I love how organic language is
Right? For nerds like myself, here's a sampling of some other new "official" entries in 2015:
autotune
Blu-ray
camming
crowdfund
e-cig
FLOTUS
handsy
hot mess
jeggings
kettlebell
koozie
photobomb
retweet
sext
shizzle
twerk
webisode
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justrollme wrote: »thatshistorical wrote: »I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.
"Deep" is a typo for "derp," which is a term used occasionally by my 13-year-old son and his friends. They use it usually as an adjective for something that is silly or ridiculous. "Woo" is used to mean something tricksy/deceptive, as far as I can tell.
ETA, @WalkingAlong Thank you for making excellent points.
"Derp" is an ableist slur used to insult people with cognitive impairments.0 -
soulofgrace wrote: »thatshistorical wrote: »I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.
It's better to keep it that way. You're not missing much and the fact that you don't use these non-words is a good sign. Oh, and the funny thing is that "deep" is misspelled in this thread to begin with.
Have you read any Shakespeare? It's full of newly coined words. You probably know that. Language evolves whether we like it or not. Best to stay open for the sake of effective communication. I have never spoken the words derp and woo. I am too old and would look foolish. But for the sake of internet communication, its good to stay up on it. Thank you Urban Dictionary."
Shakespeare was a master of word invention
Also the word 'derp' as I mentioned above has already made it into the Oxford Dictionary - in fact it entered 3 years ago, so it's not exactly new
I love how organic language is
But... but... then you can't take passive aggressive stabs at posters.
I have a family member who may as well join the Woo of the Month Club. It isn't worth it to me to do anything about it, but if my mom asks for my opinion about the new fad from this person, I'll tell her.0 -
I agree with the smile and nod approach in most occasions. I think the "mean people" attitude might come from the pile on effect. If someone asks a question and immediately 2 of 10 people tell them in not so gentle terms, and 8 logically express that this is not a good idea, it can "feel" mean. I take a wait and see approach, to decide if more information is needed or if it will "feel" like a pile on, to the person who questions. I use, "I have found" or "in my experience statements", and fact based resources if needed to reinforce. If I become irritated, I just walk away, especially when it is not my circus and not my monkeys.
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soulofgrace wrote: »thatshistorical wrote: »I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.
It's better to keep it that way. You're not missing much and the fact that you don't use these non-words is a good sign. Oh, and the funny thing is that "deep" is misspelled in this thread to begin with.
Have you read any Shakespeare? It's full of newly coined words. You probably know that. Language evolves whether we like it or not. Best to stay open for the sake of effective communication. I have never spoken the words derp and woo. I am too old and would look foolish. But for the sake of internet communication, its good to stay up on it. Thank you Urban Dictionary."
Shakespeare was a master of word invention
Also the word 'derp' as I mentioned above has already made it into the Oxford Dictionary - in fact it entered 3 years ago, so it's not exactly new
I love how organic language is
I can imagine future language traditionalists insisting that people need to stop using whatever trendy word they will have for this in the future and instead use the more proper word "derp".0 -
QueenofHearts023 wrote: »I get told EVERY DAY that I'm wrong. "You can't eat like that! You'll get fat! You shouldn't snack. You shouldn't eat carbs. Carbs are evil! Eating pizza and bread will make you lose" Really conflicting I know.
What really angers me, is when I go to town looking for lactose and gluten free things. And everyone comments on Banting and gf in that crappy diet type of way. "Oh my friend lost so much weight on banting/by going gluten free!"
Yeah, I can't tolerate gluten or lactose because of IBS, it's not some stupid diet. That just really pisses me off. It's like an insult to me. Lol
Wait ... Banting is still a thing? I wrote a 20-page history paper about late 19th and early 20th century diet fads (and how religions got on board -- Christian Scientists, Adventists, etc.), and Banting showed up in that. Pretty much every food-related thing from that era is complete hooey, but Banting's "Letter on Corpulence" was one of the first attempts to tell people that they should watch what they eat. But still ... people still do Banting? Haven't we come a long way from then?0 -
soulofgrace wrote: »thatshistorical wrote: »I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.
It's better to keep it that way. You're not missing much and the fact that you don't use these non-words is a good sign. Oh, and the funny thing is that "deep" is misspelled in this thread to begin with.
Have you read any Shakespeare? It's full of newly coined words. You probably know that. Language evolves whether we like it or not. Best to stay open for the sake of effective communication. I have never spoken the words derp and woo. I am too old and would look foolish. But for the sake of internet communication, its good to stay up on it. Thank you Urban Dictionary."
Comparing deep and woo to Shakespeare. Thank you soulofgrace.
Shakespeare appealed to the masses. Do you know how many euphemisms for *kitten* he had in his plays?0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »soulofgrace wrote: »thatshistorical wrote: »I may be sounding kinda stupid, but what's "deep" and "woo?" I've seen WOO used a lot. I'm not hip with this lingo.
It's better to keep it that way. You're not missing much and the fact that you don't use these non-words is a good sign. Oh, and the funny thing is that "deep" is misspelled in this thread to begin with.
Have you read any Shakespeare? It's full of newly coined words. You probably know that. Language evolves whether we like it or not. Best to stay open for the sake of effective communication. I have never spoken the words derp and woo. I am too old and would look foolish. But for the sake of internet communication, its good to stay up on it. Thank you Urban Dictionary."
Shakespeare was a master of word invention
Also the word 'derp' as I mentioned above has already made it into the Oxford Dictionary - in fact it entered 3 years ago, so it's not exactly new
I love how organic language is
I can imagine future language traditionalists insisting that people need to stop using whatever trendy word they will have for this in the future and instead use the more proper word "derp".
Hard to say what will be in use and what won't, it's completely unpredictable and there are always transformations of words and their usage anyway. Think of what "terrific" and "horrible" should really mean and "bad" has undergone changes in many contexts as well. Most people would find Dickens to be readable but rather difficult and Shakespeare requires an interpreter at times.
I doubt "derp" will make it past the slang phase as it's still not widely used, in fact, other than here I don't think I run across it in my daily life.0
This discussion has been closed.
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