Muscles!

2

Replies

  • Aaronc118
    Aaronc118 Posts: 8 Member
    And a youtube video and an article that's in the "fun" section of bodybuilding.com.

    @ninerbuff can you go on? Maybe he'll listen to someone who has 30+ years experience and many credentials.
    I doubt it, but it's worth a try.

    I still don't see any evidence to discredit me. Until then.... My bro science and I will keep on making gains. You guys be well.
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
    aaronc171 wrote: »
    And a youtube video and an article that's in the "fun" section of bodybuilding.com.

    @ninerbuff can you go on? Maybe he'll listen to someone who has 30+ years experience and many credentials.
    I doubt it, but it's worth a try.

    I still don't see any evidence to discredit me. Until then.... My bro science and I will keep on making gains. You guys be well.

    You don't know how this "making an argument" thing works, I see. You need to provide credible evidence for your claims, not expect everyone else to look for evidence of the contrary.
  • jpaulie
    jpaulie Posts: 917 Member
    OP has left the building
  • richln
    richln Posts: 809 Member
    I like how sijomial conjured the body builder that seemed to think adding a few pounds of muscle turns you into a calorie burning machine. How u do dat?
  • DopeItUp
    DopeItUp Posts: 18,771 Member
    I love it when people reference anything on bb.com for any purpose other than hilarious memes.
  • FunkyTobias
    FunkyTobias Posts: 1,776 Member
    sijomial wrote: »
    aaronc171 wrote: »
    rabbitjb wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    Does this mean I have to have been eating in surplus? ?
    No it doesn't!! If you weigh more than you did two months ago then you are in a surplus. You must have been weighed as part of the test?
    It means you may have gained a kg of muscle (but beware depending on the type of test they aren't always very accurate.
    once I put on the muscle it will be easier to lose the fat.
    No not really - for some unknown reason body builders seem to think adding a few pounds of muscle turns you into a calorie burning machine! :smile:
    In reality muscle tissue takes a tiny amount of calories for your body to maintain. The impact of a few kilos extra of muscle is negligible compared to moving a little bit more.

    I think he nailed it

    Actually, he didn't. Muscle and strength training take up a considerable amount of calories to be maintained and protein synthesis burns fat as muscles grow. Why do you think sprinters and athletes have low body fat and lean muscle mass? For starters muscles are made of glycogen and protein which you get from carbs and of course protein calories. Once the muscles are put under stress you begin to deplete glycogen in the muscles and protein synthesis kicks into high gear to grow the muscle. Your body is using your fat as fuel as this process occurs during your workout. You lose water weight first and then your body taps those fat stores once the glycogen is depleted. Once you start a strength training regiment your body primes the muscles for use and so what will your body crave? More calories... And I mean healthy calories, low GL carbs, protein and mono and poly fats. So therefore you have to adjust your macros for training days so your body can take in those extra calories and utilize them accordingly. Remember once your in a anabolic state (protein synthesis) your muscles are growing and they need those extra calories or the muscles will just eat themselves and you end up skinny fat. Also when your anabolic the body pulls from the fat stores to keep the normal body functions operating in your body because your muscles are busy converting carbs into glycogen and carbs are primarily glucose. So again muscle gain and strength training is crucial to fat loss. But you must also understand these things as well before adjusting your macros for training days. 1) how much glycogen your muscles can store before converting those calories into fat. 2) You should primarily consume a bulk of your carbs after your workout in order to push that protein back into your muscles because your muscle glycogen stores are depleted along with your protein. 3) Do not eat High GL carbs in the mornings because your cortisol levels are high and your insulin sensitivity is at it's highest, those carbs become instant fat. And lastly, focus on strength training exercises like squats, free weights and HIIT cardio that maximize protein synthesis which puts into an anabolic state to hit your fat stores.

    LOL !
    Your response started badly and went steadily downhill - great collection of bro science though.

    bro.gif
  • FunkyTobias
    FunkyTobias Posts: 1,776 Member
    aaronc171 wrote: »
    Here's some more bro science from an actual physician. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haY8Q72hgI8

    Newsflash! Chiropractors aren't "actual physicians". And this one has been legally reprimanded for his quackery.

    http://www.casewatch.org/board/chiro/berg.shtml

    http://www.casewatch.org/board/chiro/credeur/medical_board_order.shtml

  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
    Because actual science is underrated, I went ahead and looked for the ones about EE during exercise.

    3x5 at 70% 1RM: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22401781
    Up to 20 kcal for the whole thing.

    Single set to failure at different % of 1RM: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kelly_Ahearn/publication/45630071_Aerobic_Anaerobic_and_Excess_Postexercise_Oxygen_Consumption_Energy_Expenditure_of_Muscular_Endurance_and_Strength_1-Set_of_Bench_Press_to_Muscular_Fatigue/links/09e415086cb12141bd000000.pdf
    Highest was 15 kcal for the lowest % of 1RM at over 30 reps.

    3 sets each of squats, db rows, deadlift, bench press, lat pulldown, shoulder press, curls and dips:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21904276
    unfortunately no full text available and no info on % of 1RM and amount of reps each but at most the expenditure was 507 kcal total which makes an average of 21 kcal per set.
  • Medilia
    Medilia Posts: 230 Member
    edited February 2016
    OP Was blissfully asleep dreaming about a Mexican feast she had on Friday.
    All this debating has done my very blonde head in.

    To give a bit more info - when I say lifting. I mean serious lifting. I am setting my base 1 RMs at the moment. And my training plan is pretty intense. My bike riding can range from 30-70km per week and we are building it up with my growing fitness level.
    I am inclined to believe the results. I have left them at my friend's so I won't be able to tell you the exact figures. But I gained just over a kilo of muscle and 500 grams of fat. But due to the muscle gain my overall fat percentage went down.
    I think my results were slightly skewed as I took the test in the morning before I had an unexpected visitor of the monthly variety (I am on my period).
    Although my friend thinks that it would have mostly affected my overall weight and the water results rather than my fat or muscle.

    I don't think my friends have "The typical bodybuilder mentality"

    We are all friends of four completely different body shapes and compositions, who genuinely enjoy lifting and are pursuing fitness.

    I have one guy who just wants to lift heavy things - He is very lean and has some awesome muscle definition he is working on.
    My mentor is a man who has lost 35+KG and just wants to be able to lift heavy things for fitness and lose more fat.
    His girlfriend is a tall slender woman who is trying to bulk and gain some muscle definition. But for her to do that she needs to eat 3,000 cal.

    I am questioning if I am eating in Surplus because I remember when I was calorie counting most healthy days I was struggling to hit 1200/1500 calories.

    I am going to Calorie count for the next week to see where I stand.

    So what I have read though and want to clarify here.

    It is possible that I have gained this muscle while eating under surplus?
    If I have more muscle it will make no difference when I go to lose fat? It won't make it any harder or easier?

    Edit: I eat a high protein, high fat, low carb diet.

    Pretty much my morning in protein shake, eggs, lean protein.
    Lunch: Salad with a meat
    Dinner: Meat and vegetables OR a bean based meal like a chilli or something Vegan. On lifting days I usually add sweet potato to this meal.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
    Surplus = gained weight.
    Deficit = lost weight.

    What has your weight actually done over the last two months? Is that change consistent or was your weight on day of the test much affected by your cycle?

    What kind of body composition test was it?
  • Medilia
    Medilia Posts: 230 Member
    edited February 2016
    My actual weight is up by a kilo since December.
    I have never weighed myself during this part of cycle before because I was always told it messes with results. But my friend thinks it would only affect my water weight which for the first time ever was on point.

    It was one of the ones in the nutrition shops where you jump on the special scale and hold onto the bars.
    I know it is not 100% accurate. But it is pretty awesome. It measures different parts of your body (How big your thighs and waist are) and the results are spot on every time. I go home and have my friend measure me to check haha.
  • bspringer544
    bspringer544 Posts: 155 Member
    aaronc171 wrote: »
    rabbitjb wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    Does this mean I have to have been eating in surplus? ?
    No it doesn't!! If you weigh more than you did two months ago then you are in a surplus. You must have been weighed as part of the test?
    It means you may have gained a kg of muscle (but beware depending on the type of test they aren't always very accurate.
    once I put on the muscle it will be easier to lose the fat.
    No not really - for some unknown reason body builders seem to think adding a few pounds of muscle turns you into a calorie burning machine! :smile:
    In reality muscle tissue takes a tiny amount of calories for your body to maintain. The impact of a few kilos extra of muscle is negligible compared to moving a little bit more.

    I think he nailed it

    Actually, he didn't. Muscle and strength training take up a considerable amount of calories to be maintained and protein synthesis burns fat as muscles grow. Why do you think sprinters and athletes have low body fat and lean muscle mass? For starters muscles are made of glycogen and protein which you get from carbs and of course protein calories. Once the muscles are put under stress you begin to deplete glycogen in the muscles and protein synthesis kicks into high gear to grow the muscle. Your body is using your fat as fuel as this process occurs during your workout. You lose water weight first and then your body taps those fat stores once the glycogen is depleted. Once you start a strength training regiment your body primes the muscles for use and so what will your body crave? More calories... And I mean healthy calories, low GL carbs, protein and mono and poly fats. So therefore you have to adjust your macros for training days so your body can take in those extra calories and utilize them accordingly. Remember once your in a anabolic state (protein synthesis) your muscles are growing and they need those extra calories or the muscles will just eat themselves and you end up skinny fat. Also when your anabolic the body pulls from the fat stores to keep the normal body functions operating in your body because your muscles are busy converting carbs into glycogen and carbs are primarily glucose. So again muscle gain and strength training is crucial to fat loss. But you must also understand these things as well before adjusting your macros for training days. 1) how much glycogen your muscles can store before converting those calories into fat. 2) You should primarily consume a bulk of your carbs after your workout in order to push that protein back into your muscles because your muscle glycogen stores are depleted along with your protein. 3) Do not eat High GL carbs in the mornings because your cortisol levels are high and your insulin sensitivity is at it's highest, those carbs become instant fat. And lastly, focus on strength training exercises like squats, free weights and HIIT cardio that maximize protein synthesis which puts into an anabolic state to hit your fat stores.

    Healthy calories, he said...
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
    So more than likely you are at a very small surplus - but yes water fluctuations can mask the trend.

    The hand held part of the device works by sending a tiny current through your body, measuring the resistance and then making loads of assumptions as to your composition.

    Sadly most of them are wildly inaccurate, very badly affected by different hydration levels. Do the test at different times of day, before or after exercise, before or after just a glass of water and your results will very different.

    I had some 4 point ones (feet and hands to "zap" whole body) and could get a reasonable trend over months but with wild fluctuations (+/- 3% body fat in the same day!). I've also got some that put me at 30% fat....

    Don't put too much credence in the numbers, interesting perhaps but no more than that. Tape measure and photo progress shots are far better - and virtually free. At least your machine does measurements for you I suppose. :smile:
  • bspringer544
    bspringer544 Posts: 155 Member
    edited February 2016

    Del
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    aaronc171 wrote: »
    Here's some more bro science from an actual physician. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haY8Q72hgI8

    Newsflash! Chiropractors aren't "actual physicians". And this one has been legally reprimanded for his quackery.

    http://www.casewatch.org/board/chiro/berg.shtml

    http://www.casewatch.org/board/chiro/credeur/medical_board_order.shtml

    Your can almost predict the exact pathways these guys will go to find "sources" of "science".
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Things got sidetracked a bit, but it is perfectly possible for someone--esp a newbie--to gain 1 kg of muscle or even more while in a calorie deficit.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Because actual science is underrated, I went ahead and looked for the ones about EE during exercise.

    3x5 at 70% 1RM: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22401781
    Up to 20 kcal for the whole thing.

    Single set to failure at different % of 1RM: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kelly_Ahearn/publication/45630071_Aerobic_Anaerobic_and_Excess_Postexercise_Oxygen_Consumption_Energy_Expenditure_of_Muscular_Endurance_and_Strength_1-Set_of_Bench_Press_to_Muscular_Fatigue/links/09e415086cb12141bd000000.pdf
    Highest was 15 kcal for the lowest % of 1RM at over 30 reps.

    3 sets each of squats, db rows, deadlift, bench press, lat pulldown, shoulder press, curls and dips:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21904276
    unfortunately no full text available and no info on % of 1RM and amount of reps each but at most the expenditure was 507 kcal total which makes an average of 21 kcal per set.

    Hey, the bench press study by Scott is MY study.

    (Just kidding--it is one of my favorites and I reference it all the time).
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,344 Member
    edited February 2016
    aaronc171 wrote: »
    I'll give you this last one on Insulin control written by a man with a PHD. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/the-muscle-building-messenger-complete-guide-to-insulin.html

    LOL. That article looks like it came from somebody with a PhD in supplement sales (well, it did come from bb.com, after all). How about instead we refer to an article about insulin which is scientific and has links to actual peer-reviewed studies?: http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
  • Medilia
    Medilia Posts: 230 Member
    So I spoke with my friends again today and after trying to deter me by saying "Don't worry about the science, we'll look after you."
    They finally told me the science... and then dumbed it down for me.
    The way my PT/Mentor/Friend has explained it is essentially: I can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, it's just it will happen really slowly on both fronts. This is good because it is manageable. I will most likely lose the fat before I gain all the muscle I want. Once we get to that point we will focus on just building muscle.

    He said because a lot of muscle advice comes from body builders it is often three stages, stage one which is their pre-shedding and bulking where they just work on staying fit, the fat shedding stage, the muscle gain phase. But this is not sustainable hence why they cycle through it. They will be ripped with low body fat for a few weeks and then pile it back on. Since I am not looking to be a body builder this isn't what I want to do. Plus unsustainable.

    The other great thing is, our bodies if properly fueled will adapt to anything. Since I am eating a high protein diet I am giving my body the source to build muscle. I am then lifting heavier and heavier weights, my body in response is going "Oh, I better get stronger because this will kill me otherwise."

    While my increase in muscle is probably a newbie gain there is no reason that if I continue to look after my body I can't be eating at a deficit or around maintenance and building small amounts of muscle.

    Having said that, I should really be calorie counting to see where I am. But I gave up today. I had my shake, did a 24KM mountain bike ride. Then went to the pub where we had post-ride chips. Then when to sword practice and fought a few rounds. Was taken to another pub for more chips. Defenitely not a typical day.
  • CollieFit
    CollieFit Posts: 1,683 Member
    aaronc171 wrote: »
    Here's some more bro science from an actual physician. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haY8Q72hgI8

    So here is a doctor who says don't exercise, don't reduce calories, but avoid stressful people and situations and sleep more. And he calls this a "high level strategy" to lose belly fat. Erm.......