What is the best kind of milk?
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TrickyDisco wrote: »Labyrinthine93 wrote: »It is kind of sad that they take calves from their mothers so we can use their milk, but they are animals, animals that exist solely to be used by us.
Yes it is a sad fact that male calves are only given a very short life, all taken from their mothers, a few raised for veal but the vast majority are destroyed.
Thankfully living in first world countries we don't have to support the horrible practices involved in animal farming, plenty of alternatives out there for anyone with a shred of empathy for these creatures and who cares enough to do something about it.
No. The vast majority are raised for beef.
http://www.thisisdairyfarming.com/discover/dairy-farming-facts/what-happens-to-male-calves/0 -
Well as an ex-dairy industry individual it saddens me to hear some of the misconceptions that people still have regarding where and how their Milk is produced. In the UK at least the dairy processor I worked for would not buy Milk from farms that kept their herds in anything other than perfect conditions. The raw Milk was tested on arrival for butterfat content, antibiotics and bacterial load. Any trace of antibiotic and the tanker load was incinerated - no exceptions. A bacterial load that indicated sick cattle - the farm was removed from the supplier listing and animal welfare informed. Butterfats out of wack - tanker refused and farm investigated for adulteration.
We were very very careful in how we worked. Not a drop of milk was wasted, if it didn't get bottled then it was sold on for cheese production, milk powder, whey protein extraction or as pig feed.
And as an aside - what you buy as 'whole' Milk on a British supermarket shelf is nowhere near as high in fat as when it came out of the cow. Pure Milk is 13 to 17% fat (depending on breed of cattle) and the excess is skimmed off to give a specification 3.5% for shelf ready whole milk, 1.5% for semi-skimmed and 0.1 to 0.9% for skimmed (Lord knows why anyone would drink that flavourless muck though)
Just my experiences though - don't let it get in the way of the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign
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FunkyTobias wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »Labyrinthine93 wrote: »It is kind of sad that they take calves from their mothers so we can use their milk, but they are animals, animals that exist solely to be used by us.
Yes it is a sad fact that male calves are only given a very short life, all taken from their mothers, a few raised for veal but the vast majority are destroyed.
Thankfully living in first world countries we don't have to support the horrible practices involved in animal farming, plenty of alternatives out there for anyone with a shred of empathy for these creatures and who cares enough to do something about it.
No. The vast majority are raised for beef.
http://www.thisisdairyfarming.com/discover/dairy-farming-facts/what-happens-to-male-calves/
Pro-dairy farming website propaganda ... notice it says calves are used 'if suitable', also 'official estimates indicate' (they will of course arrive at very high estimates), and it sums up (has to admit the truth eventually) 'where no other viable options exist, very regrettably (I'm sure they regret not being able to use them to generate more profit), farmers have no choice but to cull their bull calves'. The majority of dairy cows in the UK are Friesians, bred primarily for maximum milk yield - compared to other breeds of cattle they are the equivalent of a walking bag of bones with an enormous udder. They are unsuitable for meat production because of this, do not develop a physique similar to 'meat' cattle.
I have read your pro-dairy link, now here's some facts from the Vegan Society website:
Cows could live to well over 20 years of age. On dairy farms they are usually shot between 3-4 years, cows bred for meat are killed sooner. Dairy cows suffer stress from separation from their calves (as do the calves); mastitis (udder infections) and lameness are commonplace. Mastitis is so common that milk is given a 'pus count' - this is the amount of somatic (pus) cells which are legally allowed in each litre of milk.
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I would like to mention that cow milk is actually not safe or good for human consumption. Dairy has been linked to promoting numerous cancers(prostate&breast), osteoporosis, premature puberty etc. plus pus cells. There are a lot of things wrong with dairy but health wise, it ain't lookin good mate. http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/dairy/
"Pus cells" are just white blood cells, and yes, cow's milk may have some. Human breast milk also contains them. The beef, chicken, and fish you eat may also contain some. So what?
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... skimmed (Lord knows why anyone would drink that flavourless muck though)
Just my experiences though - don't let it get in the way of the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign
Many drink skimmed milk because they want to reduce the amount of fat in their diet and it's an easy way to lower fat consumption. I'm surprised an 'ex dairy industry individual' has such a low opinion of a product they happily provided to the general public; just your personal preference, I suppose. And what is the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign? Looks like a rather pathetic attempt to belittle those with concerns over the way cattle are treated on dairy farms.
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TrickyDisco wrote: »Labyrinthine93 wrote: »It is kind of sad that they take calves from their mothers so we can use their milk, but they are animals, animals that exist solely to be used by us.
Yes it is a sad fact that male calves are only given a very short life, all taken from their mothers, a few raised for veal but the vast majority are destroyed.
Thankfully living in first world countries we don't have to support the horrible practices involved in animal farming, plenty of alternatives out there for anyone with a shred of empathy for these creatures and who cares enough to do something about it.
Its terribly sad. And if those in developed countries didn't drive the demand for animal products there would be enough plant based foods to feed the entire world too.
Another myth propagated by PETA. Not all land is best suited to vegetable growing. A good part of our planet is grassland perfectly suited to ruminants. Then there are the great Boreal forests.....0 -
so who are we to believe. .. The anti dairy peta propaganda or the pro dairy propaganda? :huh:0
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Christine_72 wrote: »so who are we to believe. .. The anti dairy peta propaganda or the pro dairy propaganda? :huh:
Here's something more measured (although there are certainly parts of it that people will take issue with): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-katz-md/my-milk-manifesto_b_6786048.html0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »so who are we to believe. .. The anti dairy peta propaganda or the pro dairy propaganda? :huh:
I think we have to make our own minds up ... but from my experience anyone who genuinely has concerns about animal welfare/food quality makes time to research the subject a bit more than having a quick peek at the PETA site. Many people don't bother, maybe they prefer to keep their heads in the sand about the sad subject of animal abuse in food production, their preference for meat/dairy is all that concerns them. There are plenty of videos on Youtube and documentaries on Netflix to prove the conditions in which animals are forced to live out their short lives and meet their end. There are also plenty of videos on eating well and healthily on a meat-free and/or dairy-free diet. As well as the ones on preparing meat and dairy dishes, of course.0 -
In that we can often research the specific sources of the foods we buy, I see no reason why watching a bunch of YouTubes whose source is often questionable would be a particularly good way to go.
I do think reading non biased sources about factory farming practices and making choices based on real information is a good call.0 -
TrickyDisco wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »so who are we to believe. .. The anti dairy peta propaganda or the pro dairy propaganda? :huh:
I think we have to make our own minds up ... but from my experience anyone who genuinely has concerns about animal welfare/food quality makes time to research the subject a bit more than having a quick peek at the PETA site. Many people don't bother, maybe they prefer to keep their heads in the sand about the sad subject of animal abuse in food production, their preference for meat/dairy is all that concerns them. There are plenty of videos on Youtube and documentaries on Netflix to prove the conditions in which animals are forced to live out their short lives and meet their end. There are also plenty of videos on eating well and healthily on a meat-free and/or dairy-free diet. As well as the ones on preparing meat and dairy dishes, of course.
I know how most animals are treated, and I admit, I try and push it out of my mind. As for those video's I couldn't bare to watch them, it would break my heart.. I don't even watch those animal planet hunting shows where a lion or crocodile or whatever takes down it's prey. The best I can do is buy organic grass fed meat and dairy products whenever I can, which is probably no help at all
So yes, you are 100% correct I do keep my head buried in the sand.0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »Labyrinthine93 wrote: »Which ever one works for you. For me it's soy milk. Cow's milk gives me digestive problems, and I'm allergic to almond.
Haha, actually I had never had almond before I heard so much about it around here and decided to give a try. Lesson learned.
It is kind of sad that they take calves from their mothers so we can use their milk, but they are animals, animals that exist solely to be used by us. So, that's more of a personal outlook. I still drink it for a protein boost on occasion if I don't have anything else.
*crinngeee*
Human ego at it's finest.
What I meant by that is they have been breed to suit our needs. We have altered them in such a way that they can't survive on their own. Dairy and beef cows are what we have made them now. It sucks, I don't like it, and curb my use. I truly believe we can develop beyond the use for large scale farming, but we are a long way off.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »so who are we to believe. .. The anti dairy peta propaganda or the pro dairy propaganda? :huh:
I think we have to make our own minds up ... but from my experience anyone who genuinely has concerns about animal welfare/food quality makes time to research the subject a bit more than having a quick peek at the PETA site. Many people don't bother, maybe they prefer to keep their heads in the sand about the sad subject of animal abuse in food production, their preference for meat/dairy is all that concerns them. There are plenty of videos on Youtube and documentaries on Netflix to prove the conditions in which animals are forced to live out their short lives and meet their end. There are also plenty of videos on eating well and healthily on a meat-free and/or dairy-free diet. As well as the ones on preparing meat and dairy dishes, of course.
I know how most animals are treated, and I admit, I try and push it out of my mind. As for those video's I couldn't bare to watch them, it would break my heart.. I don't even watch those animal planet hunting shows where a lion or crocodile or whatever takes down it's prey. The best I can do is buy organic grass fed meat and dairy products whenever I can, which is probably no help at all
So yes, you are 100% correct I do keep my head buried in the sand.
I can't watch either, seen enough, even reading about the subject can be distressing but at least there's proof of what goes on if anyone else needs to see with their own eyes. Agree about the wildlife documentaries, I know that's just how it is but still horrible to watch, I either give them a miss or switch over for a few mins at that part now. Re food, at least you're giving it some thought and are doing what you feel you can; more than most do.
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TrickyDisco wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »Labyrinthine93 wrote: »It is kind of sad that they take calves from their mothers so we can use their milk, but they are animals, animals that exist solely to be used by us.
Yes it is a sad fact that male calves are only given a very short life, all taken from their mothers, a few raised for veal but the vast majority are destroyed.
Thankfully living in first world countries we don't have to support the horrible practices involved in animal farming, plenty of alternatives out there for anyone with a shred of empathy for these creatures and who cares enough to do something about it.
No. The vast majority are raised for beef.
http://www.thisisdairyfarming.com/discover/dairy-farming-facts/what-happens-to-male-calves/
Pro-dairy farming website propaganda ... notice it says calves are used 'if suitable', also 'official estimates indicate' (they will of course arrive at very high estimates), and it sums up (has to admit the truth eventually) 'where no other viable options exist, very regrettably (I'm sure they regret not being able to use them to generate more profit), farmers have no choice but to cull their bull calves'. The majority of dairy cows in the UK are Friesians, bred primarily for maximum milk yield - compared to other breeds of cattle they are the equivalent of a walking bag of bones with an enormous udder. They are unsuitable for meat production because of this, do not develop a physique similar to 'meat' cattle.
I have read your pro-dairy link, now here's some facts from the Vegan Society website:
Cows could live to well over 20 years of age. On dairy farms they are usually shot between 3-4 years, cows bred for meat are killed sooner. Dairy cows suffer stress from separation from their calves (as do the calves); mastitis (udder infections) and lameness are commonplace. Mastitis is so common that milk is given a 'pus count' - this is the amount of somatic (pus) cells which are legally allowed in each litre of milk.
I wonder if the Vegan Society has ever researched how much water it takes to grow almonds (for almond milk), or the impact that water usage has upon drought-stricken regions.0 -
rileysowner wrote: »Cow's milk in general is not needed, and skimmed milk is one of the most ridiculous food products out there (I don't mean it in a rude way, most people buy into it because it is so heavily marketed).
We do not 'need' anything from cows, cows milk is the product of a cow that has just given birth to a baby and is producing milk to feed its young. It is (in my opinion) the most unethical animal product out there because it involves the artificial insemination (basically rape) of a cow, the slavery of that cow whilst it is milked, then the murder of its baby for veal and then the murder of the dairy cow after a couple of years when it no longer produces enough milk to be profitable.
As for the environment all animal products are worse for the planet by a huge extent because it involves inefficient use of energy because we grow plants to feed to animals but get less calories out of such because the animals waste a lot of energy through respiration. This means much larger quantities of plants need to be grown than if we ate the plants directly, and is fuelling huge deforestation to grow crops and to graze cattle (animal agriculture is the biggest cause of rainforest deforestation).
I say skim milk is even worse because to cause all this and then to just get rid of the vast majority of the product and just drink what is basically water filtered through a cow is insane.
Try some plant milks and see what you like. They don't taste like cows milk but you adjust to the taste and its great because it gives you a range of different flavours for different dishes. Soy is best for protein and richness, almond is best for its neutral flavour and low calories. I like soy for protein smoothies and creamy sauces, and I like almond for cereal and for drinking on its own as a refreshing drink. Oat, hemp and rice are all great too.
A good example of the mis-information that is rampant in this area.FunkyTobias wrote: »Cow's milk in general is not needed, and skimmed milk is one of the most ridiculous food products out there (I don't mean it in a rude way, most people buy into it because it is so heavily marketed).
We do not 'need' anything from cows, cows milk is the product of a cow that has just given birth to a baby and is producing milk to feed its young. It is (in my opinion) the most unethical animal product out there because it involves the artificial insemination (basically rape) of a cow, the slavery of that cow whilst it is milked, then the murder of its baby for veal and then the murder of the dairy cow after a couple of years when it no longer produces enough milk to be profitable.
As for the environment all animal products are worse for the planet by a huge extent because it involves inefficient use of energy because we grow plants to feed to animals but get less calories out of such because the animals waste a lot of energy through respiration. This means much larger quantities of plants need to be grown than if we ate the plants directly, and is fuelling huge deforestation to grow crops and to graze cattle (animal agriculture is the biggest cause of rainforest deforestation).
I say skim milk is even worse because to cause all this and then to just get rid of the vast majority of the product and just drink what is basically water filtered through a cow is insane.
Try some plant milks and see what you like. They don't taste like cows milk but you adjust to the taste and its great because it gives you a range of different flavours for different dishes. Soy is best for protein and richness, almond is best for its neutral flavour and low calories. I like soy for protein smoothies and creamy sauces, and I like almond for cereal and for drinking on its own as a refreshing drink. Oat, hemp and rice are all great too.
The rest of the vegan propaganda aside, do you seriously believe the bolded statement?
Where do you think butter and heavy cream come from?
GO VEGAN. SAVE THE ANIMALS. SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT. SAVE YOUR LIFE.
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TrickyDisco wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »Labyrinthine93 wrote: »It is kind of sad that they take calves from their mothers so we can use their milk, but they are animals, animals that exist solely to be used by us.
Yes it is a sad fact that male calves are only given a very short life, all taken from their mothers, a few raised for veal but the vast majority are destroyed.
Thankfully living in first world countries we don't have to support the horrible practices involved in animal farming, plenty of alternatives out there for anyone with a shred of empathy for these creatures and who cares enough to do something about it.
No. The vast majority are raised for beef.
http://www.thisisdairyfarming.com/discover/dairy-farming-facts/what-happens-to-male-calves/
Pro-dairy farming website propaganda ... notice it says calves are used 'if suitable', also 'official estimates indicate' (they will of course arrive at very high estimates), and it sums up (has to admit the truth eventually) 'where no other viable options exist, very regrettably (I'm sure they regret not being able to use them to generate more profit), farmers have no choice but to cull their bull calves'. The majority of dairy cows in the UK are Friesians, bred primarily for maximum milk yield - compared to other breeds of cattle they are the equivalent of a walking bag of bones with an enormous udder. They are unsuitable for meat production because of this, do not develop a physique similar to 'meat' cattle.
I have read your pro-dairy link, now here's some facts from the Vegan Society website:
Cows could live to well over 20 years of age. On dairy farms they are usually shot between 3-4 years, cows bred for meat are killed sooner. Dairy cows suffer stress from separation from their calves (as do the calves); mastitis (udder infections) and lameness are commonplace. Mastitis is so common that milk is given a 'pus count' - this is the amount of somatic (pus) cells which are legally allowed in each litre of milk.
Well there is a good unbiased source. Not!!!0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Well there is a good unbiased source. Not!!!
The info from thisisdairyfarming.com is obviously biased but we're expected to believe that, so why shouldn't I reply with some info from an anti-dairy source? Then people can see both sides of the argument.
Maybe there are no completely unbiased sources of information.
But while the meat/dairy industry are defending their right to continue to make profits from their inhumane practices, the animal rights and vegan groups simply want to bring farming methods to the public's attention so people know exactly what is going on in the food industry.0 -
Lets face it, any way of food production for the masses is not going to be pretty and most know it, but it is necessary if the population is going to continue to grow at the rate it is. I am including production of plant based food here, too. The massive amounts of water being taken from the aquifer in the western states in order to grow grain, corn, and soy as well as what is being diverted to California farms in order to grow almonds and a large amount of the fruits and veggies that land in North American groceries is setting us up for an environmental catastrophe that will make the Dust Bowl look like a cakewalk.
Reduce the world population and the uglier aspects of factory farming will also be reduced.
As far as cattle not being able to live without us, that is bunk. If all the people in the world would disappear today, yes a lot of cattle would die, but that would be because of a combination of being penned without food and those who are lactating not having any calves to suckle, which would cause infections and some burst udders. Those who can break out and graze would be just fine and dandy. Turkeys, on the other hand, would probably die because the domesticated ones have lost the ability to walk much of a distance or to fly *insert WKRP reference here*.0 -
beautifulsparkles wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »beautifulsparkles wrote: »@kimny72 What is a creamer? I don't think they sell those here
I'm still not 100% sure what creamer is. I'm in Australia.
For taste and macros I prefer cows milk, of which I used to drink a ton. I've recently switched to vanilla almond milk, (not the unsweetened one which tastes like water with teeny hint of almond flavour...) in my tea. It's $3.80 for 1 Litre. The only reason I switched from cow to Almond is because I constantly
had litlle pimple like bumps on my chin.. A few days of no cows milk and they have completely disappeared.
Just pick the one that fits into your taste and calorie/macro goal.
Omg, I have those as well! I think they are white heads. They have been impossible to pop! I've used an exfoliating gloves and they disappear for 12 hours then seem to come straight back!
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Those little white bumps are adult acne. Don't know what causes them. My dermatologist wrote me a prescription for Retin A cream. Been using for 3 months now and they are almost completely gone.
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DancingDarl wrote: »The best kind of milk is the one you can tolerate and that tastes nice to you. What is with people lately on here trying to convert people to vegan. If you like something stick to it regardless of other threads forcing pressured perspectives
Please don't assume all vegans are trying to convert people. Personally I don't care what your food choices are, but there may be some reading this who are interested in knowing more about where their food comes from and what exactly is involved in its production. I'm sure the more open-minded appreciate the chance to consider the subject from several viewpoints.
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beautifulsparkles wrote: »I'm not talking about brands, but where milk comes from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwWD0tOB0_M
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TrickyDisco wrote: »...But while the meat/dairy industry are defending their right to continue to make profits from their inhumane practices, the animal rights and vegan groups simply want to bring farming methods to the public's attention so people know exactly what is going on in the food industry.
So the meat/dairy industry are all evil, inhumane people plotting the demise of the world, while the vegans are pure as the driven snow and have no agenda or ulterior motive behind their propaganda. Got it.TrickyDisco wrote: »Please don't assume all vegans are trying to convert people. Personally I don't care what your food choices are, but there may be some reading this who are interested in knowing more about where their food comes from and what exactly is involved in its production. I'm sure the more open-minded appreciate the chance to consider the subject from several viewpoints.
Yes, I find posts such as this so enlightening, educational and motivational:ariellenkov wrote:GO VEGAN. SAVE THE ANIMALS. SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT. SAVE YOUR LIFE.
Another issue I have is vegans railing about how cruel and inhumane the practices of the meat industry (and omnivores in general) are. Have any of them ever happened to see how animal predators obtain their food supply? Ever seen a pack of wolves take down an elk? Or even a coyote taking down a domestic cat/dog? A prey animal in the wild dies a much slower, much more painful and far more inhumane death than any farm pig or cow has ever even imagined. Yet this is apparently just considered "the way of nature". Humans are far more humane and considerate of their animal food sources than any other species, yet vegans portray anybody who eats meat as cruel, inhumane murdering monsters.
I'm all for the ethical treatment of animals. I have more empathy toward animals than I do toward humans. But in the end, one aspect of animals is that they're a food source. I believe that should be accomplished as humanely as possible and have no desire to do it myself (hence not a hunter), but humans are omnivores. We've evolved that way and will always be that way. Humans have hunted and eaten meat since the beginning, long before agriculture was discovered/invented.0 -
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I used to use skimmed milk as well but would always feel super bloated and unwell.
Now I use substitutes but use different ones for different purposes. For cereal and to drink I like soy milk but for tea I use coconut or almond milk (especially the one with honey and vanilla)! They just all have different qualities. Rice, grain and almond milk are very thin in consistency and taste a little watery for my taste.
Soy is a little thicker and is naturally sweet and coconut milk is very high in good fats.
Just try them out and see what you like and what makes you feel good 0 -
TheBeachgod wrote: »
Not a very intelligent or well thought out comparison. Life and death situations (i.e. needing antivenom) are very different than choosing animal-based foods that result from inherent cruelty because you prefer how they taste when there are plenty of other less-cruel food choices readily available.0 -
TrickyDisco wrote: »DancingDarl wrote: »The best kind of milk is the one you can tolerate and that tastes nice to you. What is with people lately on here trying to convert people to vegan. If you like something stick to it regardless of other threads forcing pressured perspectives
Please don't assume all vegans are trying to convert people. Personally I don't care what your food choices are, but there may be some reading this who are interested in knowing more about where their food comes from and what exactly is involved in its production. I'm sure the more open-minded appreciate the chance to consider the subject from several viewpoints.
What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.0 -
beautifulsparkles wrote: »I'm not talking about brands, but where milk comes from.
I usually drink skim milk. I am wondering if it is not as good as regular, full fat milk, because it is a watered down version and our body needs calcium and stuff. I've read that you should drink full fat milk because your body needs the fat and the milk has really good stuff in it, while skim milk tends to have added sugars. Full fat milk is supposed to be more satisfying and I believe you would end up drinking a smaller amount. I am not used to the taste of full fat milk, it always tastes weird to me. It also used to give me a horrendous stomach ache when I was a child. I seem to have outgrown that, as I can have the milkshakes from McDonalds, and I obviously drink tea with milk when I go out or am at other peoples houses.
Then there are cow milk alternatives. Stuff like almond milk, soy milk or goats milk. To my knowledge I have never tasted these. I think they are more expensive. I am not sure whether they would get stored in the fridge or not, if they can be used in all the same ways cow milk can be (in tea, in baking etc) and what the expiration dates are like. Also do they have the same health benefits as regular milk, like calcium? I would need a milk alternative that meets my nutritional needs.
What is best when it comes to animals well being and the environment?
What kind of milk do you think is best? do you use more than one type of milk?
I only use whole milk. I enjoy the taste, it's useful for cooking, and it's the least expensive option on the market. 2% is tolerable for me, but not 1% or skim.
But, as others have said, whatever works best for you to meet your nutrition goals is what you should go with. I think you will get the best nutritional 'bang for your buck' with regular (cow's) milk, but I don't know how expensive the alternatives are in New Zealand.
I don't take environmental or animal welfare conditions into consideration when I purchase my food, so can't help you there.0 -
buzz28camaro wrote: »TheBeachgod wrote: »
Not a very intelligent or well thought out comparison. Life and death situations (i.e. needing antivenom) are very different than choosing animal-based foods that result from inherent cruelty because you prefer how they taste when there are plenty of other less-cruel food choices readily available.
It isn't a comparison but a mockery of the militant attitude some vegans have toward non-vegans. If someone wants to be vegan, fine, just don't go waving a flag about it like they're better than other people. How many meat eaters do you (in general, not necessarily you directly) see preaching to vegans about how they should start eating meat?0 -
Cows milk depletes more calcium from your bones than it provides, it fact studies have linked it to increased chances of fracture and contributed to higher mortality rates (google it and you will find ton of research on it). Non animal milks have fortified calcium which our body can easily absorb but not always easily digest. The best form of fortified calcium is calcium citrate as it has been proven to improve bone density and your body can easily absorb and digest it, look for it on the label before buying fortified calcium products.0
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