What is the best kind of milk?
Replies
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lemurcat12 wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »DancingDarl wrote: »The best kind of milk is the one you can tolerate and that tastes nice to you. What is with people lately on here trying to convert people to vegan. If you like something stick to it regardless of other threads forcing pressured perspectives
Please don't assume all vegans are trying to convert people. Personally I don't care what your food choices are, but there may be some reading this who are interested in knowing more about where their food comes from and what exactly is involved in its production. I'm sure the more open-minded appreciate the chance to consider the subject from several viewpoints.
What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Something that challenges your beliefs doesn't automatically make it propaganda, by the way. If a pro-vegan website said "Cows on a dairy farm are repeatedly artificially impregnated so they will continuously produce milk and their baby calves are taken away from them so the milk can be used for human consumption", would you call that propaganda? These are the types of things that maybe everybody is not aware or conscious of and learning of these basic truths may influence which industries/companies people choose to support.0 -
Disasterology919 wrote: »I love soy milk as it contains less fat, more calcium and vitamins. Even a little bit of fibre. And it also doesn't come from a cow.
Unfortunately almost all soy is GMO and it causes unhealthy estrogen production. I avoid soy. Almond milk is good (expensive in Canada where I'm from) but a nice alternative. Coconut milk is good too but higher in calories.0 -
TheBeachgod wrote: »buzz28camaro wrote: »TheBeachgod wrote: »
Not a very intelligent or well thought out comparison. Life and death situations (i.e. needing antivenom) are very different than choosing animal-based foods that result from inherent cruelty because you prefer how they taste when there are plenty of other less-cruel food choices readily available.
It isn't a comparison but a mockery of the militant attitude some vegans have toward non-vegans. If someone wants to be vegan, fine, just don't go waving a flag about it like they're better than other people. How many meat eaters do you (in general, not necessarily you directly) see preaching to vegans about how they should start eating meat?
That's the crux of what really irritates me. I don't like militant anything. Do your thing, whatever your thing is, and enjoy it - but keep your freaking nose out of my freaking business. I don't see omnivores regularly going in and crapping on vegan threads, but many vegans have no hesitation whatsoever about preaching their beliefs in totally unrelated threads. I stay out of vegan threads because I have nothing positive to contribute and zero interest in the subject, it would be nice if they would afford the same courtesy. If I wanted to read propaganda, I'd go to a propaganda site.0 -
buzz28camaro wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »DancingDarl wrote: »The best kind of milk is the one you can tolerate and that tastes nice to you. What is with people lately on here trying to convert people to vegan. If you like something stick to it regardless of other threads forcing pressured perspectives
Please don't assume all vegans are trying to convert people. Personally I don't care what your food choices are, but there may be some reading this who are interested in knowing more about where their food comes from and what exactly is involved in its production. I'm sure the more open-minded appreciate the chance to consider the subject from several viewpoints.
What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Something that challenges your beliefs doesn't automatically make it propaganda, by the way.
Agreed. That's not why I claimed that the pro vegan propaganda that it sounded as if you were referring to (and others linked here) is propaganda.
It's the use of inflammatory and misleading claims (like the oh so popular pus one) and claims about ALL dairy farms (including videos that are often questionable in their sourcing in some way). If someone gets milk from a farmer they personally know, as some have posted, it's presumptuous for you (or the poster I was speaking to) to assert that you know more about the practices at that farm than they do, and that you need to explain to them the real facts.0 -
TheBeachgod wrote: »buzz28camaro wrote: »TheBeachgod wrote: »
Not a very intelligent or well thought out comparison. Life and death situations (i.e. needing antivenom) are very different than choosing animal-based foods that result from inherent cruelty because you prefer how they taste when there are plenty of other less-cruel food choices readily available.
It isn't a comparison but a mockery of the militant attitude some vegans have toward non-vegans. If someone wants to be vegan, fine, just don't go waving a flag about it like they're better than other people. How many meat eaters do you (in general, not necessarily you directly) see preaching to vegans about how they should start eating meat?
[Some] vegans 'preach' to meat-eaters about not eating meat because vegans passionately care about animal suffering and want to see it reduced, ideally eliminated, as much as possible. It wouldn't make sense for a meat-eater to 'preach' to vegans to start eating meat because meat-eaters are not saddened or otherwise disbursed by people who do not harm animals. If I choose not to eat animal products, that in and of itself does not have an effect on a meat-eater. Whereas, a meat-eater choosing to eat meat does have an effect on a vegan because the vegan is devastated by the thought of an animal being killed for what is ultimately a trivial reason. Hope that makes sense.
I hate making analogies because they are always taken out of context and generally the point is usually missed, but take, for example, someone who breeds and trains dogs for fighting. If somebody said "Mind your own business, what I do in my personal life is of no consequence to you." Nobody would accept that as a valid response; they would demand that person stop the harmful behavior they are doing since it is not a victimless act. Vegans feel the same way about meat eating; it involves a victim (the animal). The main difference is vegan see all animals, including farm animals, as victims, whereas non-vegans seem to be exclude farm animals from their circle of compassion.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »buzz28camaro wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »DancingDarl wrote: »The best kind of milk is the one you can tolerate and that tastes nice to you. What is with people lately on here trying to convert people to vegan. If you like something stick to it regardless of other threads forcing pressured perspectives
Please don't assume all vegans are trying to convert people. Personally I don't care what your food choices are, but there may be some reading this who are interested in knowing more about where their food comes from and what exactly is involved in its production. I'm sure the more open-minded appreciate the chance to consider the subject from several viewpoints.
What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Something that challenges your beliefs doesn't automatically make it propaganda, by the way.
Agreed. That's not why I claimed that the pro vegan propaganda that it sounded as if you were referring to (and others linked here) is propaganda.
It's the use of inflammatory and misleading claims (like the oh so popular pus one) and claims about ALL dairy farms (including videos that are often questionable in their sourcing in some way). If someone gets milk from a farmer they personally know, as some have posted, it's presumptuous for you (or the poster I was speaking to) to assert that you know more about the practices at that farm than they do, and that you need to explain to them the real facts.
I agree with some of what you have said, but I think vegans generalize and lump all dairy farms together because the vast majority of people (at least in America) are getting their milk from large, industrialized dairy farms, not the local farms which you speak of. So if you can make an argument that applies to the vast majority of people, it's sometimes easier to make your point as if it applies across the board. Not to mention, the things I mentioned in my prior post (constantly impregnating cows, calves being taken away) are not isolated incidents or things that do not happen on small, family farms.. It is a fact of how dairy must be produced. I don't think facts should ever be considered propaganda, regardless of what website or Youtube channel they are found on.0 -
buzz28camaro wrote: »TheBeachgod wrote: »buzz28camaro wrote: »TheBeachgod wrote: »
Not a very intelligent or well thought out comparison. Life and death situations (i.e. needing antivenom) are very different than choosing animal-based foods that result from inherent cruelty because you prefer how they taste when there are plenty of other less-cruel food choices readily available.
It isn't a comparison but a mockery of the militant attitude some vegans have toward non-vegans. If someone wants to be vegan, fine, just don't go waving a flag about it like they're better than other people. How many meat eaters do you (in general, not necessarily you directly) see preaching to vegans about how they should start eating meat?
[Some] vegans 'preach' to meat-eaters about not eating meat because vegans passionately care about animal suffering and want to see it reduced, ideally eliminated, as much as possible. It wouldn't make sense for a meat-eater to 'preach' to vegans to start eating meat because meat-eaters are not saddened or otherwise disbursed by people who do not harm animals. If I choose not to eat animal products, that in and of itself does not have an effect on a meat-eater. Whereas, a meat-eater choosing to eat meat does have an effect on a vegan because the vegan is devastated by the thought of an animal being killed for what is ultimately a trivial reason. Hope that makes sense.
I hate making analogies because they are always taken out of context and generally the point is usually missed, but take, for example, someone who breeds and trains dogs for fighting. If somebody said "Mind your own business, what I do in my personal life is of no consequence to you." Nobody would accept that as a valid response; they would demand that person stop the harmful behavior they are doing since it is not a victimless act. Vegans feel the same way about meat eating; it involves a victim (the animal). The main difference is vegan see all animals, including farm animals, as victims, whereas non-vegans seem to be exclude farm animals from their circle of compassion.
Agreed. I lived with a lacto-ovo vegetarian for 9 years and I understand and respect that train of thought. I do think it's sad a cow had to die for my hamburger or pizza but I'm still going to eat it.
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I wonder if the Vegan Society has ever researched how much water it takes to grow almonds (for almond milk), or the impact that water usage has upon drought-stricken regions.
I'm sure there'll be something somewhere on their massive website about it, why not take a look if you're interested? Or check out Alpro, who make many plant-based drinks and yoghurts and have an environmental statement about their soya on the cartons; I don't use almond milk though so don't know if there's one for that too.So the meat/dairy industry are all evil, inhumane people plotting the demise of the world, while the vegans are pure as the driven snow and have no agenda or ulterior motive behind their propaganda. Got it.
Don't think you have got it. The quote immediately above is all your own work of fiction - maybe this is how you like to depict vegans' views of themselves in general. What agenda or ulterior motive do you think vegans have? And it's a fair bet the 'propaganda' you're mentioning is merely the facts that you personally don't want to accept.0 -
MadeOfMagic wrote: »Cows milk depletes more calcium from your bones than it provides, it fact studies have linked it to increased chances of fracture and contributed to higher mortality rates (google it and you will find ton of research on it). Non animal milks have fortified calcium which our body can easily absorb but not always easily digest. The best form of fortified calcium is calcium citrate as it has been proven to improve bone density and your body can easily absorb and digest it, look for it on the label before buying fortified calcium products.
Citation needed.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Ah, that 'propaganda' word again.
See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.
Is this an example of propaganda then, or are these facts? All cows on dairy farms, large or small, are kept in a state of almost continual pregnancy to produce milk, male calves are mostly slaughtered as unprofitable and cows are slaughtered as soon as their milk yield drops below required levels. People who get their dairy milk from another source (and it's highly unlikely to be from a 'pet' cow who along with her calves will be kept until they both die a natural death) will be in a tiny minority. Milk has a pus count because mastitis is commonplace throughout dairy herds.
Have you watched any of the clips on Youtube yourself and in what way would they also be 'propaganda' rather than 'whistle-blowing' on the kind of abuse which happens out of sight of the general public? Do you think the footage is somehow staged (animal-loving vegans would definitely NOT be able to do this) and, if so, how do you know that?
I'd genuinely like to know, since it may affect my own opinions on veganism.
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TrickyDisco wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Ah, that 'propaganda' word again. See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.
Is this an example of propaganda then, or are these facts? All cows on dairy farms, large or small, are kept in a state of almost continual pregnancy to produce milk, male calves are mostly slaughtered as unprofitable and cows are slaughtered as soon as their milk yield drops below required levels. People who get their dairy milk from another source (and it's highly unlikely to be from a 'pet' cow who along with her calves will be kept until they both die a natural death) will be in a tiny minority. Milk has a pus count because mastitis is commonplace throughout dairy herds.
Have you watched any of the clips on Youtube yourself and in what way would they also be 'propaganda' rather than 'whistle-blowing' on the kind of abuse which happens out of sight of the general public? Do you think the footage is somehow staged (animal-loving vegans would definitely NOT be able to do this) and, if so, how do you know that?
I'd genuinely like to know, since it may affect my own opinions on veganism.
I'm mostly vegan. I reduced my consumption of animal products for environmental and animal welfare reasons. I'm cool with Farmer Joe down the road and will get some cheese/meat from him because I see how his cows are raised and I'm good with that. They have a good life. They're doing their cow thing... eating grass and all. They aren't standing in a flood of their own feces/fed with corn/pumped full of antibiotics... you know.. non-natural cow things. I'm not okay with mass meat production for those reasons.
It kind of blows my mind.. like TrickyDisco was saying.. why is what I'm saying 'propaganda'? It's true. It happens. Go to a CAFO. Go to a slaughterhouse. See for yourself. Just because you don't want to know or don't want to believe it doesn't mean it isn't happening. That's mass production. If we all ate just a little less of it.. we wouldn't have to put the animals/environment on the backburner for profits. I know meat consumption is going down a bit.. so that's good news.. but man.. you all get so defensive... and facts become 'propaganda'
As for milk.. and those accusing vegans of caring about animals but not things like water intensive crops like almonds. I switched to cashew milk because of the almond drought thing.
I'm a strong believer in voting with my money.. and that's what I do with my diet. If you all want to bash me for that.. go ahead.. but the hostility towards vegans is pretty bananas. I know some came out with some strong descriptions.. more than I would get into.. but different things work on different people.0 -
MadeOfMagic wrote: »Cows milk depletes more calcium from your bones than it provides, it fact studies have linked it to increased chances of fracture and contributed to higher mortality rates (google it and you will find ton of research on it). Non animal milks have fortified calcium which our body can easily absorb but not always easily digest. The best form of fortified calcium is calcium citrate as it has been proven to improve bone density and your body can easily absorb and digest it, look for it on the label before buying fortified calcium products.
Citation needed.
“Clinical research shows that dairy products have little or no benefit for bones. A 2005 review published in Pediatrics showed that milk consumption does not improve bone integrity in children.2 In a more recent study, researchers tracked the diets, physical activity, and stress fracture incidences of adolescent girls for seven years, and concluded that dairy products and calcium do not prevent stress fractures in adolescent girls.3 Similarly, the Harvard Nurses’ Health Study, which followed more than 72,000 women for 18 years, showed no protective effect of increased milk consumption on fracture risk.1”
“In a large study including 1,893 women from the Life After Cancer Epidemiology Study who had been diagnosed with early-stage invasive breast cancer, higher amounts of high-fat dairy product consumption were associated with higher mortality rates. As little as 0.5 servings a day increased risk significantly. This is probably due to the fact that estrogenic hormones reside primarily in fat, making the concern most pronounced for consumption of high-fat dairy products.”
http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vegdiets/health-concerns-about-dairy-products
There are ton of other studies that link milk to cancers/diseases listed on the same site with citations. All the study citations are on the website at the very bottom.
“Milk consumption was also not associated with a lower risk of hip fracture (P for trend = 0.21).” “An adequate vitamin D intake is associated with a lower risk of osteoporotic hip fractures in postmenopausal women. Neither milk nor a high-calcium diet appears to reduce risk. “
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/77/2/504.full
“Greater milk consumption during teenage years was not associated with a lower risk of hip fracture in older adults.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24247817
“Experimental evidence in animals has suggested D-galactose is associated with ageing, with observations including oxidative stress (where damage occurs at the molecular level) to tissues, and changes to gene activity and the immune system.
The researchers say an injected dose of 100mg/kg of D-galactose has been shown to accelerate biological signs of ageing in mice, which is equivalent to 6 to 10g in humans, or the amount found in one to two glasses of milk.
“In the women's cohort, compared with drinking less than one glass of milk a day (less than 200g/day), each increasing category of intake was associated with a 21% increased risk of death from any cause for one to two glasses, and 93% increased risk for three or more glasses.”
“In women, each increasing category of milk intake above less than one glass a day was associated with an increased risk of fracture of 7% for one to two glasses, and 16% for two or more. Risk of hip fracturespecifically also increased with each intake above less than one glass.”
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/10October/Pages/Milk-linked-to-bone-fractures-and-early-death.aspx
Addition info with studies/citations listed:
http://www.whitelies.org.uk/sites/default/files/milkmyths/Calcium factsheet 2012_0.pdf
MY CONCLUSION: For better bone health consume less sodium, exercise and get calcium from green veggies, fortified calcium foods/drinks, etc. You can consume most dairy product with health benefits except regular milk and few other dairy products; cheese or fermented milk is okay. There are even greater health risks when drinking non-organic milk because of antibiotics and hormones cows receive. Personally I am going to avoid milk while consuming dairy products that have same benefits as milk. To me the risk isn’t worth the drinking of it especially as a woman where the milk seems to affect more. I wish there were more studies but these are enough for me to warrant caution. There are more important factors that contribute to bone health than calcium like other minerals and Vitamin D, increasing those give more benefits than calcium from milk.
I would pull more studies but I just don't have that kind of time in my day! Hoping this is enough to warrant caution on your0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »so who are we to believe. .. The anti dairy peta propaganda or the pro dairy propaganda? :huh:
I think we have to make our own minds up ... but from my experience anyone who genuinely has concerns about animal welfare/food quality makes time to research the subject a bit more than having a quick peek at the PETA site. Many people don't bother, maybe they prefer to keep their heads in the sand about the sad subject of animal abuse in food production, their preference for meat/dairy is all that concerns them. There are plenty of videos on Youtube and documentaries on Netflix to prove the conditions in which animals are forced to live out their short lives and meet their end. There are also plenty of videos on eating well and healthily on a meat-free and/or dairy-free diet. As well as the ones on preparing meat and dairy dishes, of course.
I know how most animals are treated, and I admit, I try and push it out of my mind. As for those video's I couldn't bare to watch them, it would break my heart.. I don't even watch those animal planet hunting shows where a lion or crocodile or whatever takes down it's prey. The best I can do is buy organic grass fed meat and dairy products whenever I can, which is probably no help at all
So yes, you are 100% correct I do keep my head buried in the sand.
The best you can do is just eat plants instead.
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TrickyDisco wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Ah, that 'propaganda' word again. See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.
Is this an example of propaganda then, or are these facts? All cows on dairy farms, large or small, are kept in a state of almost continual pregnancy to produce milk, male calves are mostly slaughtered as unprofitable and cows are slaughtered as soon as their milk yield drops below required levels. People who get their dairy milk from another source (and it's highly unlikely to be from a 'pet' cow who along with her calves will be kept until they both die a natural death) will be in a tiny minority. Milk has a pus count because mastitis is commonplace throughout dairy herds.
Have you watched any of the clips on Youtube yourself and in what way would they also be 'propaganda' rather than 'whistle-blowing' on the kind of abuse which happens out of sight of the general public? Do you think the footage is somehow staged (animal-loving vegans would definitely NOT be able to do this) and, if so, how do you know that?
I'd genuinely like to know, since it may affect my own opinions on veganism.
Showing footage of the worst offenders and presenting them as the norm is propaganda.
Calling artificial insemination "rape" is propaganda. You want to see animal rape, watch my drakes with my ducks. Duck sex is pretty rapey.
Calling white blood cells "pus" is propaganda.
Lying about the fate of male calves is propaganda. Most are not culled, but raised for meat.
The belief that animals (other than pets) should be allowed to die a natural death is disingenuous. How many wild ruminants die of old age?
I'm not a fan of factory farming either. The vast majority of the meat and eggs I eat are from local farmers and hunters. But I think that lying to attempt to win others over to your position is despicable.
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FunkyTobias wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Ah, that 'propaganda' word again. See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.
Is this an example of propaganda then, or are these facts? All cows on dairy farms, large or small, are kept in a state of almost continual pregnancy to produce milk, male calves are mostly slaughtered as unprofitable and cows are slaughtered as soon as their milk yield drops below required levels. People who get their dairy milk from another source (and it's highly unlikely to be from a 'pet' cow who along with her calves will be kept until they both die a natural death) will be in a tiny minority. Milk has a pus count because mastitis is commonplace throughout dairy herds.
Have you watched any of the clips on Youtube yourself and in what way would they also be 'propaganda' rather than 'whistle-blowing' on the kind of abuse which happens out of sight of the general public? Do you think the footage is somehow staged (animal-loving vegans would definitely NOT be able to do this) and, if so, how do you know that?
I'd genuinely like to know, since it may affect my own opinions on veganism.
Showing footage of the worst offenders and presenting them as the norm is propaganda.
Calling artificial insemination "rape" is propaganda. You want to see animal rape, watch my drakes with my ducks. Duck sex is pretty rapey.
Calling white blood cells "pus" is propaganda.
Lying about the fate of male calves is propaganda. Most are not culled, but raised for meat.
The belief that animals (other than pets) should be allowed to die a natural death is disingenuous. How many wild ruminants die of old age?
I'm not a fan of factory farming either. The vast majority of the meat and eggs I eat are from local farmers and hunters. But I think that lying to attempt to win others over to your position is despicable.
But the vast majority of meat production and what people actually eat is the result of factory farming. Your method is not the norm and neither is mine. Chances are.. they are getting their product from the worst offenders.. so does that not warrant sharing?0 -
LindzMiche wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Ah, that 'propaganda' word again. See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.
Is this an example of propaganda then, or are these facts? All cows on dairy farms, large or small, are kept in a state of almost continual pregnancy to produce milk, male calves are mostly slaughtered as unprofitable and cows are slaughtered as soon as their milk yield drops below required levels. People who get their dairy milk from another source (and it's highly unlikely to be from a 'pet' cow who along with her calves will be kept until they both die a natural death) will be in a tiny minority. Milk has a pus count because mastitis is commonplace throughout dairy herds.
Have you watched any of the clips on Youtube yourself and in what way would they also be 'propaganda' rather than 'whistle-blowing' on the kind of abuse which happens out of sight of the general public? Do you think the footage is somehow staged (animal-loving vegans would definitely NOT be able to do this) and, if so, how do you know that?
I'd genuinely like to know, since it may affect my own opinions on veganism.
Showing footage of the worst offenders and presenting them as the norm is propaganda.
Calling artificial insemination "rape" is propaganda. You want to see animal rape, watch my drakes with my ducks. Duck sex is pretty rapey.
Calling white blood cells "pus" is propaganda.
Lying about the fate of male calves is propaganda. Most are not culled, but raised for meat.
The belief that animals (other than pets) should be allowed to die a natural death is disingenuous. How many wild ruminants die of old age?
I'm not a fan of factory farming either. The vast majority of the meat and eggs I eat are from local farmers and hunters. But I think that lying to attempt to win others over to your position is despicable.
But the vast majority of meat production and what people actually eat is the result of factory farming. Your method is not the norm and neither is mine. Chances are.. they are getting their product from the worst offenders.. so does that not warrant sharing?
This is true. It would be great if everyone would be able to get their meat and dairy from the little farm down the road..0 -
LindzMiche wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Ah, that 'propaganda' word again. See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.
Is this an example of propaganda then, or are these facts? All cows on dairy farms, large or small, are kept in a state of almost continual pregnancy to produce milk, male calves are mostly slaughtered as unprofitable and cows are slaughtered as soon as their milk yield drops below required levels. People who get their dairy milk from another source (and it's highly unlikely to be from a 'pet' cow who along with her calves will be kept until they both die a natural death) will be in a tiny minority. Milk has a pus count because mastitis is commonplace throughout dairy herds.
Have you watched any of the clips on Youtube yourself and in what way would they also be 'propaganda' rather than 'whistle-blowing' on the kind of abuse which happens out of sight of the general public? Do you think the footage is somehow staged (animal-loving vegans would definitely NOT be able to do this) and, if so, how do you know that?
I'd genuinely like to know, since it may affect my own opinions on veganism.
Showing footage of the worst offenders and presenting them as the norm is propaganda.
Calling artificial insemination "rape" is propaganda. You want to see animal rape, watch my drakes with my ducks. Duck sex is pretty rapey.
Calling white blood cells "pus" is propaganda.
Lying about the fate of male calves is propaganda. Most are not culled, but raised for meat.
The belief that animals (other than pets) should be allowed to die a natural death is disingenuous. How many wild ruminants die of old age?
I'm not a fan of factory farming either. The vast majority of the meat and eggs I eat are from local farmers and hunters. But I think that lying to attempt to win others over to your position is despicable.
But the vast majority of meat production and what people actually eat is the result of factory farming. Your method is not the norm and neither is mine. Chances are.. they are getting their product from the worst offenders.. so does that not warrant sharing?
Not if the video in question isn't even representative of factory farming, which many aren't.
I've seen a few of these videos where the operations in question were found to be in violation of the law, but they were portrayed as standard.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »LindzMiche wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Ah, that 'propaganda' word again. See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.
Is this an example of propaganda then, or are these facts? All cows on dairy farms, large or small, are kept in a state of almost continual pregnancy to produce milk, male calves are mostly slaughtered as unprofitable and cows are slaughtered as soon as their milk yield drops below required levels. People who get their dairy milk from another source (and it's highly unlikely to be from a 'pet' cow who along with her calves will be kept until they both die a natural death) will be in a tiny minority. Milk has a pus count because mastitis is commonplace throughout dairy herds.
Have you watched any of the clips on Youtube yourself and in what way would they also be 'propaganda' rather than 'whistle-blowing' on the kind of abuse which happens out of sight of the general public? Do you think the footage is somehow staged (animal-loving vegans would definitely NOT be able to do this) and, if so, how do you know that?
I'd genuinely like to know, since it may affect my own opinions on veganism.
Showing footage of the worst offenders and presenting them as the norm is propaganda.
Calling artificial insemination "rape" is propaganda. You want to see animal rape, watch my drakes with my ducks. Duck sex is pretty rapey.
Calling white blood cells "pus" is propaganda.
Lying about the fate of male calves is propaganda. Most are not culled, but raised for meat.
The belief that animals (other than pets) should be allowed to die a natural death is disingenuous. How many wild ruminants die of old age?
I'm not a fan of factory farming either. The vast majority of the meat and eggs I eat are from local farmers and hunters. But I think that lying to attempt to win others over to your position is despicable.
But the vast majority of meat production and what people actually eat is the result of factory farming. Your method is not the norm and neither is mine. Chances are.. they are getting their product from the worst offenders.. so does that not warrant sharing?
This is true. It would be great if everyone would be able to get their meat and dairy from the little farm down the road..
I think everyone is missing the bigger picture here which is that if everyone chose a plant-based "milk" product, we wouldn't even have to worry about how the animals were treated. That's some extreme mental gymnastics to say that as long as animals are "treated OK", then repeatedly impregnating the, separating mother from her calf so humans can drink the milk, and selling her baby for veal or hamburger meat is acceptable behavior because "at least they get to live a normal cow life on a happy family farm down the road" before being unnecessarily killed.0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »Showing footage of the worst offenders and presenting them as the norm is propaganda.
You admit there ARE offenders then, and some are worse than others. Please post links - would like to see for myself how they are being presented as the norm, never seen this.FunkyTobias wrote: »Calling artificial insemination "rape" is propaganda. You want to see animal rape, watch my drakes with my ducks. Duck sex is pretty rapey.
The 'rape' comment was made by someone else in this thread, but thanks for the offer to watch your ducks having sex. Can't see what it has to do with dairy farming so will turn it down.FunkyTobias wrote: »Calling white blood cells "pus" is propaganda.
Dairy farm workers themselves call it this, an easier phrase to say (two syllables) than the official terms 'somatic cell count' or SCC and since it's mentioned a lot in the course of their work they shorten it to 'pus count'. Farmers are financially rewarded for low SCC levels and penalised for high ones, because cell counts reflect the quality of the milk. Milk with an SCC of more than 400,000 is deemed unfit for human consumption by the EU.FunkyTobias wrote: »Lying about the fate of male calves is propaganda. Most are not culled, but raised for meat.
Proof please and links to exact figures from reliable sources in the industry. I can't find this info, even your earlier link to thisisdairyfarming.com only gives estimates and you would think the industry would have exact figures since farmers keep cull records, but I have found estimates varying from 55,000 male calves shot within hours of birth in the UK per year (Compassion in World Farming) to 150,000 (Viva!). Maybe the industry deliberately hides the figures from the public.FunkyTobias wrote: »The belief that animals (other than pets) should be allowed to die a natural death is disingenuous. How many wild ruminants die of old age?
First, don't attach that belief to me personally, the words above are yours. Disingenuous ... admit I had to remind myself of the meaning and apparently it means 'dishonest, cunning, sly, insincere'. I'm not sure what's dishonest about believing all animals should be allowed to die a natural death, if that's what someone believes. Obviously wild animals mostly die natural deaths from predation, injury, disease or starvation (apart from the millions shot, trapped, poisoned or run over by cars etc). Farm animals usually die when farmers decide. I think you're confusing 'die a natural death' with the more widely held belief that animals deserve to 'live a natural life', or as near to it as possible. Which means they deserve to have at least their most basic needs met and to be free from unnecessary suffering and abuse. Sadly, many farm animals are denied this.FunkyTobias wrote: »I'm not a fan of factory farming either. The vast majority of the meat and eggs I eat are from local farmers and hunters.
Glad to hear you've made peace with your own conscience about your food sources. I'm sure no hunter of the meat you eat has ever missed a target and left a wild animal to die a slow death. Not.FunkyTobias wrote: »But I think that lying to attempt to win others over to your position is despicable.
It would be despicable if it were true. Your final line proves you'll go to any lengths to discredit someone with an alternative viewpoint on this subject. Very sad.
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Don't want to participate in this drama, so I'll just put my personal answer here: the best kind of milk is the kind you like to drink. I don't like nut/seed/soy milks so I don't drink them. I like cow and goat milk so I drink them. I drink low fat more often than I do full fat, but when goat milk is in season I drink full fat more often.0
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I looked at many types of milk last time I was at the supermarket, and they all seemed to have a lot of sugar, and at least twice the price of cows milk. Will look again, but will probably stick with trim milk.0
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I tend to go for whichever non-dairy milk is on offer at my local supermarket. Non-sweetened almond was on offer recently so that's what I'm using at the moment. I don't drink a lot of hot drinks when I'm at home and if I do it is usually some kind of herbal/fruit tea so no milk is needed.0
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hemp milk !!!!!!!!!!! hemp is a complete protein also, has all 21 esential aminos.... high calcium too.... please google it and see why! otherwise i always have almond, coconut (thick coco milk for coffee) macadamia milk cashew milk or sometimes soy0
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and to add to above comments, its true- you need hormones to be producing those big udders full of milk for the baby cow to grow, so as a grown human being we really dont need milk... if u wouldnt remove a human baby from its mom and take her milk for yourself, why would you support companies that do that to the other species who we steal milk from? not your mom, not your milk. do u want those hormones anyway?
also the countries with most osteoporosis are those countries that have lots of dairy in the diet, the countries in the far east / pacific have no osteoporisis or wayyy less ad they dont have dairy in the diet like the west does.
PLANT milks are where its at.... hemp is life
and before people bash me for being more peace / eco friendly, theres some people that also wanna have less impact on the earth and like when we spread these messages to create awareness.... and going animal free is a amazing step to take.... you can google and youll see thousands of reasons why.0 -
melissalatzel25 wrote: »and to add to above comments, its true- you need hormones to be producing those big udders full of milk for the baby cow to grow, so as a grown human being we really dont need milk... if u wouldnt remove a human baby from its mom and take her milk for yourself, why would you support companies that do that to the other species who we steal milk from? not your mom, not your milk. do u want those hormones anyway?
also the countries with most osteoporosis are those countries that have lots of dairy in the diet, the countries in the far east / pacific have no osteoporisis or wayyy less ad they dont have dairy in the diet like the west does.
PLANT milks are where its at.... hemp is life
and before people bash me for being more peace / eco friendly, theres some people that also wanna have less impact on the earth and like when we spread these messages to create awareness.... and going animal free is a amazing step to take.... you can google and youll see thousands of reasons why.
Again, drama aside, I think plant "milks" taste like horribly flavored water. Too watery, even the heavy stuff like coconut cream have a watery aftertaste and not a hint of delicious "dairy-ness". Dairy is how I get a lot of my protein so in my case I do need dairy or my diet would not be as nicely varied and delicious as it currently is.0 -
TrickyDisco wrote: »... skimmed (Lord knows why anyone would drink that flavourless muck though)
Just my experiences though - don't let it get in the way of the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign
Many drink skimmed milk because they want to reduce the amount of fat in their diet and it's an easy way to lower fat consumption. I'm surprised an 'ex dairy industry individual' has such a low opinion of a product they happily provided to the general public; just your personal preference, I suppose. And what is the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign? Looks like a rather pathetic attempt to belittle those with concerns over the way cattle are treated on dairy farms.
Isn't it nice how you conveniently ignored the rest of my post about quality standards and working practices in order to focus on the one piece of personal opinion it contained?
You're quite right it was my personal preference, I've drunk all types of milk with varying fat contents and find skimmed to be distasteful to my palette, the comment certainly had no bearing on my opinion towards the buying public to whom the product was sold - in fact I had to risk my health for the same public during routine taste testing of life-expired Milk. That's right part of my job was to drink life-expired Milk to make sure that it wouldn't make a person ill if they decided to drink it past its 'use-by' date.
Further it appears you failed to notice the emoticon used by the obvious comment at the end of my post - meant in jest in the attempt to lighten the mood a little in the thread which was heading down a bit of an angry vegan / non-vegan path (non-vegan is a bit less confrontational than 'anti-vegan' don't you think?)
I'm all for facts to be public and accessible - it helps others to make intelligent and informed decisions. I'm also all for people being vegan and for making choices for ethical reasons. Each to their own and hopefully with more people being vegan and vegetarian we will see a better and more sustainable use of agricultural land that benefits all species inhabiting the earth.
A final note though on the use of 'propaganda'. The use and presentation of information and opinion, whether it be true or false in order to promote an agenda is propaganda. The Vegan Society has an agenda, the Dairy Council has an agenda, any source that promotes a way of thinking as in any way superior or better than another has an agenda and should be viewed as such.0 -
beautifulsparkles wrote: »I looked at many types of milk last time I was at the supermarket, and they all seemed to have a lot of sugar, and at least twice the price of cows milk. Will look again, but will probably stick with trim milk.
You can always make nut milks yourself. It only takes a few ingredients/kitchen tools/time. You can then control sugar/salt content. I hear it is also much better tasting. Have yet to try myself but is on my list!
http://minimalistbaker.com/how-to-make-almond-milk/0 -
LindzMiche wrote: »beautifulsparkles wrote: »I looked at many types of milk last time I was at the supermarket, and they all seemed to have a lot of sugar, and at least twice the price of cows milk. Will look again, but will probably stick with trim milk.
You can always make nut milks yourself. It only takes a few ingredients/kitchen tools/time. You can then control sugar/salt content. I hear it is also much better tasting. Have yet to try myself but is on my list!
http://minimalistbaker.com/how-to-make-almond-milk/
I can attest to that. I don't like nut milks at all, but I don't mind them as a part of certain dishes. I made almond milk and took a sip, though still not as good as real milk it was heaps and bounds better than the store bought stuff. I have a trick for that: heat up half of the resulting milk until it becomes thicker and creamier then add it back to the other half. The result: a creamier almond milk that works wonderfully in lenten desserts.0 -
TrickyDisco wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Ah, that 'propaganda' word again. See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.
I'm not anti vegan at all, and I am concerned about ethical treatment of animals, including farm animals. I just do not share the vegetarian/vegan view that that means it is wrong for humans to raise them for food and eat them (or use their eggs and milk). I have thought about this and read about factory farming and made choices based on my own ethical beliefs, so I find it offensive that you insist that you have to educate us or know the real facts of our choices better than we do. Ultimately the argument isn't about facts but about the implications of the facts, the conclusions we draw from them. (For example, the fate of male calves, which at many small local farms will be for meat -- I don't see that as a terrible thing. Same with cows being impregnated, and there's been discussion upthread about that from people knowledgeable about dairy farming.)
Trying to make an argument based on shock videos of factory farming practices (often questionably sourced or misleading and typically about the worst case scenarios anyway, as Funky Tobias says lawbreakers vs. normal practices, let alone practices that have a thing to do with the farms I try to buy from) seems to me not about a rational discussion of ideas but an effort to propagandize and even mislead. Same with some of the false or misleading claims on various vegan sources (like about pus (white blood cells) or milk being deadly for us). It's the use of information I know is false and misleading that makes me reject these sources, even if other things are more accurate. I'm not wading through that when someone has already demonstrated bad faith (not you, the source).Have you watched any of the clips on Youtube yourself and in what way would they also be 'propaganda' rather than 'whistle-blowing' on the kind of abuse which happens out of sight of the general public?
Yes, and I recall questions being raised about the sourcing as noted above, and both sides looked bad and I did not believe they were representative. Therefore, I did not find them convincing because I was skeptical of the motives and approach. Reading more fact-based and less emotional accounts of factory farming practices has been more convincing for me in causing me to opt out of it as best I can (when it comes to animals, anyway). But of course that's not enough for your purposes, as I still don't think eating meat or dairy or eggs is inherently unethical.0 -
TrickyDisco wrote: »... skimmed (Lord knows why anyone would drink that flavourless muck though)
Just my experiences though - don't let it get in the way of the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign
Many drink skimmed milk because they want to reduce the amount of fat in their diet and it's an easy way to lower fat consumption. I'm surprised an 'ex dairy industry individual' has such a low opinion of a product they happily provided to the general public; just your personal preference, I suppose. And what is the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign? Looks like a rather pathetic attempt to belittle those with concerns over the way cattle are treated on dairy farms.
Isn't it nice how you conveniently ignored the rest of my post about quality standards and working practices in order to focus on the one piece of personal opinion it contained?
You're quite right it was my personal preference, I've drunk all types of milk with varying fat contents and find skimmed to be distasteful to my palette, the comment certainly had no bearing on my opinion towards the buying public to whom the product was sold - in fact I had to risk my health for the same public during routine taste testing of life-expired Milk. That's right part of my job was to drink life-expired Milk to make sure that it wouldn't make a person ill if they decided to drink it past its 'use-by' date.
Further it appears you failed to notice the emoticon used by the obvious comment at the end of my post - meant in jest in the attempt to lighten the mood a little in the thread which was heading down a bit of an angry vegan / non-vegan path (non-vegan is a bit less confrontational than 'anti-vegan' don't you think?)
I'm all for facts to be public and accessible - it helps others to make intelligent and informed decisions. I'm also all for people being vegan and for making choices for ethical reasons. Each to their own and hopefully with more people being vegan and vegetarian we will see a better and more sustainable use of agricultural land that benefits all species inhabiting the earth.
A final note though on the use of 'propaganda'. The use and presentation of information and opinion, whether it be true or false in order to promote an agenda is propaganda. The Vegan Society has an agenda, the Dairy Council has an agenda, any source that promotes a way of thinking as in any way superior or better than another has an agenda and should be viewed as such.
Actually the reason I didn't quote almost all of your post was because I found it both interesting and informative; I'm always keen to read everyone's views from all sides. Lots of people only quote part of a post when replying, it doesn't mean the rest of the post is irrelevant, just that they're highlighting the part they do want to comment on.
It was only the last couple of lines that seemed odd to me. You described skimmed milk as 'flavourless muck' as if dismissing the product as useless and I couldn't understand why you'd mention that in a forum where hundreds of people who drink it regularly would see it and perhaps be offended. There are plenty of things I would not eat/drink but I wouldn't insult the people who do by using derogatory terms to describe their food. As I said before, I guessed it was your personal opinion, just wanted to draw your attention to the fact you might have offended someone and may want to be more considerate of other people's food preferences in future responses.
Shocked to hear about the part of your job where you had to risk your life for the public by drinking life-expired milk. Never knew employers could put an employee's life in jeopardy in such a way; I applaud your bravery and on behalf of the dairy milk-drinking public would like to sincerely thank you. I was so appalled I looked for more info but can't find reference any such job requirement on the huge AHDB Dairy website. Will keep looking, sure it will be there somewhere, a great site packed full of info on every aspect of British dairy farming. Maybe they test milk safety differently these days, using on-farm test kits/laboratory testing etc; you didn't say how long ago it was you were in the industry.
I did notice the 'wink' emoticon too, next to your comment about the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign. I still don't know what that means as you still haven't explained. Combined with the comment, maybe if it had been a simple smile rather than a wink it wouldn't have been interpreted as you having a little dig at vegans. Do you really see this thread as 'heading down an angry path'? You see, I don't ... everyone's here giving their opinions and I enjoy reading them all, even the ones from those who don't think everyone is entitled to one.
Hmm, non-vegan v anti-vegan. These terms mean two different things to me. Non-vegan refers to an omnivore, pescatarian or vegetarian, for instance, obviously anyone who hasn't adopted a vegan lifestyle. Whereas an anti-vegan is anyone who has a definite aversion for whatever reason to others who HAVE adopted a vegan lifestyle. There appear to be quite a few of them on this site but of course they're all entitled to their beliefs (somewhat close-minded for not accepting lifestyle choices of others?) - whatever, I still enjoy reading all their posts.
Agree with you about facts needing to be made public and accessible. It's difficult locating all sorts of information online, isn't it? Right now I'm seeking exact figures on numbers of male calves destroyed. With all the records farms have to keep on culling, medication etc you'd think the figures would be readily available but all I've found are estimates so far. Many downloads available at AHDB Dairy, maybe one of those will shed some light on the matter. So much reading though, will keep looking till I find an exact figure from an official source (from the industry itself rather than an animal rights group).
Sorry but your final note on propaganda didn't really shed any new light on the subject for me, even in bold print. That word is bandied around threads like this all the time, usually it's anti-vegans accusing vegans of 'using propaganda' along with 'having agendas'. This is intriguing to me because despite asking in as clear terms as possible I never hear what the agendas are.
What is the Vegan Society's agenda you mention? I thought the society was simply somewhere to go for info/support on veganism for those interested; they certainly don't promote veganism as better than any other lifestyle choice, merely there for those who don't want to eat meat or dairy products for mainly ethical reasons. They have a huge website and I've been unable to find any info on this 'agenda' anywhere - perhaps because there isn't one?
In fact I wouldn't be surprised to find that the people with an agenda are actually those who have such an aversion to vegans that they are prepared to attack their comments and beliefs at every opportunity. Could these be people in the meat/dairy industry or gamekeepers, huntsmen and fishermen? I don't know. Why would anyone hate someone who simply tries not to harm animals in any way they possibly can within their means? I don't know.
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