What is the best kind of milk?
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I looked at many types of milk last time I was at the supermarket, and they all seemed to have a lot of sugar, and at least twice the price of cows milk. Will look again, but will probably stick with trim milk.0
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I tend to go for whichever non-dairy milk is on offer at my local supermarket. Non-sweetened almond was on offer recently so that's what I'm using at the moment. I don't drink a lot of hot drinks when I'm at home and if I do it is usually some kind of herbal/fruit tea so no milk is needed.0
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hemp milk !!!!!!!!!!! hemp is a complete protein also, has all 21 esential aminos.... high calcium too.... please google it and see why! otherwise i always have almond, coconut (thick coco milk for coffee) macadamia milk cashew milk or sometimes soy0
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and to add to above comments, its true- you need hormones to be producing those big udders full of milk for the baby cow to grow, so as a grown human being we really dont need milk... if u wouldnt remove a human baby from its mom and take her milk for yourself, why would you support companies that do that to the other species who we steal milk from? not your mom, not your milk. do u want those hormones anyway?
also the countries with most osteoporosis are those countries that have lots of dairy in the diet, the countries in the far east / pacific have no osteoporisis or wayyy less ad they dont have dairy in the diet like the west does.
PLANT milks are where its at.... hemp is life
and before people bash me for being more peace / eco friendly, theres some people that also wanna have less impact on the earth and like when we spread these messages to create awareness.... and going animal free is a amazing step to take.... you can google and youll see thousands of reasons why.0 -
melissalatzel25 wrote: »and to add to above comments, its true- you need hormones to be producing those big udders full of milk for the baby cow to grow, so as a grown human being we really dont need milk... if u wouldnt remove a human baby from its mom and take her milk for yourself, why would you support companies that do that to the other species who we steal milk from? not your mom, not your milk. do u want those hormones anyway?
also the countries with most osteoporosis are those countries that have lots of dairy in the diet, the countries in the far east / pacific have no osteoporisis or wayyy less ad they dont have dairy in the diet like the west does.
PLANT milks are where its at.... hemp is life
and before people bash me for being more peace / eco friendly, theres some people that also wanna have less impact on the earth and like when we spread these messages to create awareness.... and going animal free is a amazing step to take.... you can google and youll see thousands of reasons why.
Again, drama aside, I think plant "milks" taste like horribly flavored water. Too watery, even the heavy stuff like coconut cream have a watery aftertaste and not a hint of delicious "dairy-ness". Dairy is how I get a lot of my protein so in my case I do need dairy or my diet would not be as nicely varied and delicious as it currently is.0 -
TrickyDisco wrote: »... skimmed (Lord knows why anyone would drink that flavourless muck though)
Just my experiences though - don't let it get in the way of the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign
Many drink skimmed milk because they want to reduce the amount of fat in their diet and it's an easy way to lower fat consumption. I'm surprised an 'ex dairy industry individual' has such a low opinion of a product they happily provided to the general public; just your personal preference, I suppose. And what is the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign? Looks like a rather pathetic attempt to belittle those with concerns over the way cattle are treated on dairy farms.
Isn't it nice how you conveniently ignored the rest of my post about quality standards and working practices in order to focus on the one piece of personal opinion it contained?
You're quite right it was my personal preference, I've drunk all types of milk with varying fat contents and find skimmed to be distasteful to my palette, the comment certainly had no bearing on my opinion towards the buying public to whom the product was sold - in fact I had to risk my health for the same public during routine taste testing of life-expired Milk. That's right part of my job was to drink life-expired Milk to make sure that it wouldn't make a person ill if they decided to drink it past its 'use-by' date.
Further it appears you failed to notice the emoticon used by the obvious comment at the end of my post - meant in jest in the attempt to lighten the mood a little in the thread which was heading down a bit of an angry vegan / non-vegan path (non-vegan is a bit less confrontational than 'anti-vegan' don't you think?)
I'm all for facts to be public and accessible - it helps others to make intelligent and informed decisions. I'm also all for people being vegan and for making choices for ethical reasons. Each to their own and hopefully with more people being vegan and vegetarian we will see a better and more sustainable use of agricultural land that benefits all species inhabiting the earth.
A final note though on the use of 'propaganda'. The use and presentation of information and opinion, whether it be true or false in order to promote an agenda is propaganda. The Vegan Society has an agenda, the Dairy Council has an agenda, any source that promotes a way of thinking as in any way superior or better than another has an agenda and should be viewed as such.0 -
beautifulsparkles wrote: »I looked at many types of milk last time I was at the supermarket, and they all seemed to have a lot of sugar, and at least twice the price of cows milk. Will look again, but will probably stick with trim milk.
You can always make nut milks yourself. It only takes a few ingredients/kitchen tools/time. You can then control sugar/salt content. I hear it is also much better tasting. Have yet to try myself but is on my list!
http://minimalistbaker.com/how-to-make-almond-milk/0 -
LindzMiche wrote: »beautifulsparkles wrote: »I looked at many types of milk last time I was at the supermarket, and they all seemed to have a lot of sugar, and at least twice the price of cows milk. Will look again, but will probably stick with trim milk.
You can always make nut milks yourself. It only takes a few ingredients/kitchen tools/time. You can then control sugar/salt content. I hear it is also much better tasting. Have yet to try myself but is on my list!
http://minimalistbaker.com/how-to-make-almond-milk/
I can attest to that. I don't like nut milks at all, but I don't mind them as a part of certain dishes. I made almond milk and took a sip, though still not as good as real milk it was heaps and bounds better than the store bought stuff. I have a trick for that: heat up half of the resulting milk until it becomes thicker and creamier then add it back to the other half. The result: a creamier almond milk that works wonderfully in lenten desserts.0 -
TrickyDisco wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Ah, that 'propaganda' word again.
See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.
I'm not anti vegan at all, and I am concerned about ethical treatment of animals, including farm animals. I just do not share the vegetarian/vegan view that that means it is wrong for humans to raise them for food and eat them (or use their eggs and milk). I have thought about this and read about factory farming and made choices based on my own ethical beliefs, so I find it offensive that you insist that you have to educate us or know the real facts of our choices better than we do. Ultimately the argument isn't about facts but about the implications of the facts, the conclusions we draw from them. (For example, the fate of male calves, which at many small local farms will be for meat -- I don't see that as a terrible thing. Same with cows being impregnated, and there's been discussion upthread about that from people knowledgeable about dairy farming.)
Trying to make an argument based on shock videos of factory farming practices (often questionably sourced or misleading and typically about the worst case scenarios anyway, as Funky Tobias says lawbreakers vs. normal practices, let alone practices that have a thing to do with the farms I try to buy from) seems to me not about a rational discussion of ideas but an effort to propagandize and even mislead. Same with some of the false or misleading claims on various vegan sources (like about pus (white blood cells) or milk being deadly for us). It's the use of information I know is false and misleading that makes me reject these sources, even if other things are more accurate. I'm not wading through that when someone has already demonstrated bad faith (not you, the source).Have you watched any of the clips on Youtube yourself and in what way would they also be 'propaganda' rather than 'whistle-blowing' on the kind of abuse which happens out of sight of the general public?
Yes, and I recall questions being raised about the sourcing as noted above, and both sides looked bad and I did not believe they were representative. Therefore, I did not find them convincing because I was skeptical of the motives and approach. Reading more fact-based and less emotional accounts of factory farming practices has been more convincing for me in causing me to opt out of it as best I can (when it comes to animals, anyway). But of course that's not enough for your purposes, as I still don't think eating meat or dairy or eggs is inherently unethical.0 -
TrickyDisco wrote: »... skimmed (Lord knows why anyone would drink that flavourless muck though)
Just my experiences though - don't let it get in the way of the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign
Many drink skimmed milk because they want to reduce the amount of fat in their diet and it's an easy way to lower fat consumption. I'm surprised an 'ex dairy industry individual' has such a low opinion of a product they happily provided to the general public; just your personal preference, I suppose. And what is the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign? Looks like a rather pathetic attempt to belittle those with concerns over the way cattle are treated on dairy farms.
Isn't it nice how you conveniently ignored the rest of my post about quality standards and working practices in order to focus on the one piece of personal opinion it contained?
You're quite right it was my personal preference, I've drunk all types of milk with varying fat contents and find skimmed to be distasteful to my palette, the comment certainly had no bearing on my opinion towards the buying public to whom the product was sold - in fact I had to risk my health for the same public during routine taste testing of life-expired Milk. That's right part of my job was to drink life-expired Milk to make sure that it wouldn't make a person ill if they decided to drink it past its 'use-by' date.
Further it appears you failed to notice the emoticon used by the obvious comment at the end of my post - meant in jest in the attempt to lighten the mood a little in the thread which was heading down a bit of an angry vegan / non-vegan path (non-vegan is a bit less confrontational than 'anti-vegan' don't you think?)
I'm all for facts to be public and accessible - it helps others to make intelligent and informed decisions. I'm also all for people being vegan and for making choices for ethical reasons. Each to their own and hopefully with more people being vegan and vegetarian we will see a better and more sustainable use of agricultural land that benefits all species inhabiting the earth.
A final note though on the use of 'propaganda'. The use and presentation of information and opinion, whether it be true or false in order to promote an agenda is propaganda. The Vegan Society has an agenda, the Dairy Council has an agenda, any source that promotes a way of thinking as in any way superior or better than another has an agenda and should be viewed as such.
Actually the reason I didn't quote almost all of your post was because I found it both interesting and informative; I'm always keen to read everyone's views from all sides. Lots of people only quote part of a post when replying, it doesn't mean the rest of the post is irrelevant, just that they're highlighting the part they do want to comment on.
It was only the last couple of lines that seemed odd to me. You described skimmed milk as 'flavourless muck' as if dismissing the product as useless and I couldn't understand why you'd mention that in a forum where hundreds of people who drink it regularly would see it and perhaps be offended. There are plenty of things I would not eat/drink but I wouldn't insult the people who do by using derogatory terms to describe their food. As I said before, I guessed it was your personal opinion, just wanted to draw your attention to the fact you might have offended someone and may want to be more considerate of other people's food preferences in future responses.
Shocked to hear about the part of your job where you had to risk your life for the public by drinking life-expired milk. Never knew employers could put an employee's life in jeopardy in such a way; I applaud your bravery and on behalf of the dairy milk-drinking public would like to sincerely thank you. I was so appalled I looked for more info but can't find reference any such job requirement on the huge AHDB Dairy website. Will keep looking, sure it will be there somewhere, a great site packed full of info on every aspect of British dairy farming. Maybe they test milk safety differently these days, using on-farm test kits/laboratory testing etc; you didn't say how long ago it was you were in the industry.
I did notice the 'wink' emoticon too, next to your comment about the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign. I still don't know what that means as you still haven't explained. Combined with the comment, maybe if it had been a simple smile rather than a wink it wouldn't have been interpreted as you having a little dig at vegans. Do you really see this thread as 'heading down an angry path'? You see, I don't ... everyone's here giving their opinions and I enjoy reading them all, even the ones from those who don't think everyone is entitled to one.
Hmm, non-vegan v anti-vegan. These terms mean two different things to me. Non-vegan refers to an omnivore, pescatarian or vegetarian, for instance, obviously anyone who hasn't adopted a vegan lifestyle. Whereas an anti-vegan is anyone who has a definite aversion for whatever reason to others who HAVE adopted a vegan lifestyle. There appear to be quite a few of them on this site but of course they're all entitled to their beliefs (somewhat close-minded for not accepting lifestyle choices of others?) - whatever, I still enjoy reading all their posts.
Agree with you about facts needing to be made public and accessible. It's difficult locating all sorts of information online, isn't it? Right now I'm seeking exact figures on numbers of male calves destroyed. With all the records farms have to keep on culling, medication etc you'd think the figures would be readily available but all I've found are estimates so far. Many downloads available at AHDB Dairy, maybe one of those will shed some light on the matter. So much reading though, will keep looking till I find an exact figure from an official source (from the industry itself rather than an animal rights group).
Sorry but your final note on propaganda didn't really shed any new light on the subject for me, even in bold print. That word is bandied around threads like this all the time, usually it's anti-vegans accusing vegans of 'using propaganda' along with 'having agendas'. This is intriguing to me because despite asking in as clear terms as possible I never hear what the agendas are.
What is the Vegan Society's agenda you mention? I thought the society was simply somewhere to go for info/support on veganism for those interested; they certainly don't promote veganism as better than any other lifestyle choice, merely there for those who don't want to eat meat or dairy products for mainly ethical reasons. They have a huge website and I've been unable to find any info on this 'agenda' anywhere - perhaps because there isn't one?
In fact I wouldn't be surprised to find that the people with an agenda are actually those who have such an aversion to vegans that they are prepared to attack their comments and beliefs at every opportunity. Could these be people in the meat/dairy industry or gamekeepers, huntsmen and fishermen? I don't know. Why would anyone hate someone who simply tries not to harm animals in any way they possibly can within their means? I don't know.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm not anti vegan at all, and I am concerned about ethical treatment of animals, including farm animals. I just do not share the vegetarian/vegan view that that means it is wrong for humans to raise them for food and eat them (or use their eggs and milk). I have thought about this and read about factory farming and made choices based on my own ethical beliefs, so I find it offensive that you insist that you have to educate us or know the real facts of our choices better than we do.
Good to hear you're not anti vegan at all. Also that you arrived at choices you're happy with, rightly so. Nowhere on this thread or elsewhere have I insisted on 'educating' anyone or claimed to know the 'real facts' of people's choices ... these are your words, not mine. So you appear to be offended by something you've written yourself; most peculiar. Luckily I'm not offended by what could possibly be an attempt to discredit my unbiased opinions. In fact I fully expected to read your comments here having seen some of your posts on earlier threads over the years.
One thing I can remember posting earlier here is a response in which I said that everyone should make up their own minds and if they were interested should get their info from a variety of sources. Admittedly, it's stating the obvious. But really not something to take offence at.lemurcat12 wrote: »Trying to make an argument based on shock videos of factory farming practices (often questionably sourced or misleading and typically about the worst case scenarios anyway, as Funky Tobias says lawbreakers vs. normal practices, let alone practices that have a thing to do with the farms I try to buy from) seems to me not about a rational discussion of ideas but an effort to propagandize and even mislead. Same with some of the false or misleading claims on various vegan sources (like about pus (white blood cells) or milk being deadly for us). It's the use of information I know is false and misleading that makes me reject these sources, even if other things are more accurate. I'm not wading through that when someone has already demonstrated bad faith (not you, the source).
I'm not arguing anything based on anything at all, merely giving my opinions. In the same response mentioned above I did say there are Youtube clips and Netflix documentaries if people want to view them (stating the obvious again) but no links (would never post links to such distressing viewing anyway). I expected some kind of garbled torrent of derision about those clips and here it is, somewhat difficult to follow too ... almost as if there's a fear there might be some truth in the content. Personally, I think whether it shows law-breaking or normal practices, neither thing should be happening at all so whoever goes undercover to get the clips/footage is right to make it available so everyone can make their own minds up. I'm all for rational discussion, though, but it appears one person's rational is another's totally irrational. C'est la vie.
Please don't tar us all with the same brush re misleading claims on vegan matters. There's a lot of confusion out there and unfortunately certain people who do their best to discredit ALL vegan information take advantage of that.
I'm sure that's not happening here, though. The pus count/white blood cells issue is interesting. I visited one of the UK's leading sites for dairy farmers - AHDB Dairy - and it's really informative on a huge range of aspects of dairy farming, including SCC (somatic cell count). Seems the reason they call it 'pus count' - apart from it being easier to say - is because the massive increases in somatic cells is due to infection in cows' udders. There must be some human health implications too because with a count above 400,000 per litre the milk is deemed unfit for human consumption (this is in the EU but a quick google gives US figures). So perhaps that's where the 'pus' and 'milk danger' claims come from. EU farmers are financially rewarded for low SCC figures and penalised for high ones so obviously very important they try to reduce mastitis infection in their herds. Not trying to educate anyone here, of course, just sharing some info about dairy milk found from a reliable source.
Anyway, in the interest of what you call 'rational discussion of ideas' maybe you'd like to share with all of us the info you say you know is false and misleading, then we can individually decide whether to follow your example and reject them. Likewise the more accurate things.lemurcat12 wrote: »Yes, and I recall questions being raised about the sourcing as noted above, and both sides looked bad and I did not believe they were representative. Therefore, I did not find them convincing because I was skeptical of the motives and approach. Reading more fact-based and less emotional accounts of factory farming practices has been more convincing for me in causing me to opt out of it as best I can (when it comes to animals, anyway). But of course that's not enough for your purposes, as I still don't think eating meat or dairy or eggs is inherently unethical.
Thanks for your opinions here on the clips/footage we were discussing above. I'm all for reading more fact-based, less emotional accounts of farming practices too; the facts I've read made me opt out of meat and dairy consumption completely. Will not financially support those industries myself, but of course accept the majority do and some even have no choice but to support them or consume meat/dairy products (health reasons, geographical location etc).
Unfortunately, the first part of your final sentence seems to revert to a bit of mud-slinging again. What exactly do you mean by 'my purposes'? And if I did have purposes - which I don't - (but is this the 'hidden agenda' thing some people keep mentioning?) how would you know what they are?
If you're insinuating I'd try to convert people to veganism I can assure you you are very mistaken; it would insult people's intelligence to even try.
ETA: Messed up my quotes, sorry about that!
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TrickyDisco wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »... skimmed (Lord knows why anyone would drink that flavourless muck though)
Just my experiences though - don't let it get in the way of the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign
Many drink skimmed milk because they want to reduce the amount of fat in their diet and it's an easy way to lower fat consumption. I'm surprised an 'ex dairy industry individual' has such a low opinion of a product they happily provided to the general public; just your personal preference, I suppose. And what is the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign? Looks like a rather pathetic attempt to belittle those with concerns over the way cattle are treated on dairy farms.
Isn't it nice how you conveniently ignored the rest of my post about quality standards and working practices in order to focus on the one piece of personal opinion it contained?
You're quite right it was my personal preference, I've drunk all types of milk with varying fat contents and find skimmed to be distasteful to my palette, the comment certainly had no bearing on my opinion towards the buying public to whom the product was sold - in fact I had to risk my health for the same public during routine taste testing of life-expired Milk. That's right part of my job was to drink life-expired Milk to make sure that it wouldn't make a person ill if they decided to drink it past its 'use-by' date.
Further it appears you failed to notice the emoticon used by the obvious comment at the end of my post - meant in jest in the attempt to lighten the mood a little in the thread which was heading down a bit of an angry vegan / non-vegan path (non-vegan is a bit less confrontational than 'anti-vegan' don't you think?)
I'm all for facts to be public and accessible - it helps others to make intelligent and informed decisions. I'm also all for people being vegan and for making choices for ethical reasons. Each to their own and hopefully with more people being vegan and vegetarian we will see a better and more sustainable use of agricultural land that benefits all species inhabiting the earth.
A final note though on the use of 'propaganda'. The use and presentation of information and opinion, whether it be true or false in order to promote an agenda is propaganda. The Vegan Society has an agenda, the Dairy Council has an agenda, any source that promotes a way of thinking as in any way superior or better than another has an agenda and should be viewed as such.
Actually the reason I didn't quote almost all of your post was because I found it both interesting and informative; I'm always keen to read everyone's views from all sides. Lots of people only quote part of a post when replying, it doesn't mean the rest of the post is irrelevant, just that they're highlighting the part they do want to comment on.
It was only the last couple of lines that seemed odd to me. You described skimmed milk as 'flavourless muck' as if dismissing the product as useless and I couldn't understand why you'd mention that in a forum where hundreds of people who drink it regularly would see it and perhaps be offended. There are plenty of things I would not eat/drink but I wouldn't insult the people who do by using derogatory terms to describe their food. As I said before, I guessed it was your personal opinion, just wanted to draw your attention to the fact you might have offended someone and may want to be more considerate of other people's food preferences in future responses.
Shocked to hear about the part of your job where you had to risk your life for the public by drinking life-expired milk. Never knew employers could put an employee's life in jeopardy in such a way; I applaud your bravery and on behalf of the dairy milk-drinking public would like to sincerely thank you. I was so appalled I looked for more info but can't find reference any such job requirement on the huge AHDB Dairy website. Will keep looking, sure it will be there somewhere, a great site packed full of info on every aspect of British dairy farming. Maybe they test milk safety differently these days, using on-farm test kits/laboratory testing etc; you didn't say how long ago it was you were in the industry.
I did notice the 'wink' emoticon too, next to your comment about the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign. I still don't know what that means as you still haven't explained. Combined with the comment, maybe if it had been a simple smile rather than a wink it wouldn't have been interpreted as you having a little dig at vegans. Do you really see this thread as 'heading down an angry path'? You see, I don't ... everyone's here giving their opinions and I enjoy reading them all, even the ones from those who don't think everyone is entitled to one.
Hmm, non-vegan v anti-vegan. These terms mean two different things to me. Non-vegan refers to an omnivore, pescatarian or vegetarian, for instance, obviously anyone who hasn't adopted a vegan lifestyle. Whereas an anti-vegan is anyone who has a definite aversion for whatever reason to others who HAVE adopted a vegan lifestyle. There appear to be quite a few of them on this site but of course they're all entitled to their beliefs (somewhat close-minded for not accepting lifestyle choices of others?) - whatever, I still enjoy reading all their posts.
Agree with you about facts needing to be made public and accessible. It's difficult locating all sorts of information online, isn't it? Right now I'm seeking exact figures on numbers of male calves destroyed. With all the records farms have to keep on culling, medication etc you'd think the figures would be readily available but all I've found are estimates so far. Many downloads available at AHDB Dairy, maybe one of those will shed some light on the matter. So much reading though, will keep looking till I find an exact figure from an official source (from the industry itself rather than an animal rights group).
Sorry but your final note on propaganda didn't really shed any new light on the subject for me, even in bold print. That word is bandied around threads like this all the time, usually it's anti-vegans accusing vegans of 'using propaganda' along with 'having agendas'. This is intriguing to me because despite asking in as clear terms as possible I never hear what the agendas are.
What is the Vegan Society's agenda you mention? I thought the society was simply somewhere to go for info/support on veganism for those interested; they certainly don't promote veganism as better than any other lifestyle choice, merely there for those who don't want to eat meat or dairy products for mainly ethical reasons. They have a huge website and I've been unable to find any info on this 'agenda' anywhere - perhaps because there isn't one?
In fact I wouldn't be surprised to find that the people with an agenda are actually those who have such an aversion to vegans that they are prepared to attack their comments and beliefs at every opportunity. Could these be people in the meat/dairy industry or gamekeepers, huntsmen and fishermen? I don't know. Why would anyone hate someone who simply tries not to harm animals in any way they possibly can within their means? I don't know.
My apologies, diary and the diary industry are still a heated subject for me having been involved in it for several years. I never intended to offend anyone with my description of skimmed milk - it was a bit of an inside joke and in hindsight wouldn't have meant the same to others as it meant to myself and my ex-colleagues.
I was a laboratory analyst in the industry working for one of the largest dairy processors in the UK, sadly I can't name names for obvious reasons but I doubt you would find that particular requirement on a job description. I didn't until I had accepted the position and signed my contract. Ironically as someone blessed with a near perfect sense of smell and taste (oh lucky lucky me) I ended up having to do more of the taste tests than many others - no point taste testing for certain types of spoilage if you can't discern them at minute levels after all!
We were an on-site laboratory so handled all of the testing from raw delivery to finished packed product, including but not limited to equipment, raw materials, hygiene, temperature, chemicals and calibration, I left just over two years ago because I had had enough of the food industry (previously a Quality Auditor for a commercial bakery/dessert factory) if it tells you anything I won't eat a cream cake or dessert from a supermarket but I'll still happily drink Milk from my old diary - knowing how to decipher the printed code on a label I know exactly where, when and on which bottling line a bottle was produced.
Like you said the information is always out there, if you are uk based try a freedom of information request for the figures - companies don't have to tell you the info unless you specifically ask for it, then they can't refuse, a clever bit of legislation.
And the propaganda note was really meant for those who were saying that factual info couldn't be propaganda, not specifically aimed at yourself as you do appear to know the difference
I definitely consider myself a non-vegan rather than anti-vegan and am always concerned about some farming practice, so much so that for many years I helped my parents care for ex-battery hens, giving them the best lives we could with freedom. shelter and good food to live out their days. I really miss those chickens, marvellous characters each one of them. But I'll still eat chicken and eggs without hesitation probably because I know that a chicken won't hesitate to eat a cracked egg (even one of her own) or even another chicken if we weren't quick enough to remove the body after nature had taken its course.0 -
TrickyDisco wrote: »I expected some kind of garbled torrent of derision about those clips and here it is, somewhat difficult to follow too ...
Haha, mfp's anti-offensive content software's working well ... starred out the 'rapid water' word beginning with T used to describe illegal download sites!
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I definitely consider myself a non-vegan rather than anti-vegan and am always concerned about some farming practice, so much so that for many years I helped my parents care for ex-battery hens, giving them the best lives we could with freedom. shelter and good food to live out their days. I really miss those chickens, marvellous characters each one of them. But I'll still eat chicken and eggs without hesitation probably because I know that a chicken won't hesitate to eat a cracked egg (even one of her own) or even another chicken if we weren't quick enough to remove the body after nature had taken its course.
Yeah, chickens are great, all have their own little personalities, they're definitely 'someone' rather than 'something'. I'd love to keep some rescue hens too but don't have the space; can sponsor them and other animals at some rescue centres though.
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The massive amounts of water being taken from the aquifer in the western states in order to grow grain, corn, and soy as well as what is being diverted to California farms in order to grow almonds and a large amount of the fruits and veggies that land in North American groceries is setting us up for an environmental catastrophe that will make the Dust Bowl look like a cakewalk.
Actually corn and soy are not really grown in the western states (http://www.usda.gov/oce/weather/pubs/Other/MWCACP/namerica.htm). However, drought-ridden California grows almost 1/3rd of the total vegetables grown in the US. And almonds? Major water users. Those interested in sustainability should stop consuming almonds, no joke.
I agree with others though that almond milk / coconut milk are nutritional garbage. If you don't want to drink cow's milk for ethical/intestinal reasons that's fine, but the calorie per anything-useful quality of almond/coconut milk is way too high for me. Obviously if it's something you like drink up, but it's not really what I would call 'healthy' either.
And do other countries really not have creamers?
The kinds I used to use here come in powder form and typically non-dairy. It tastes like adding half & half to your coffee with fewer calories generally (and non-dairy for those of us with intestinal issues). I am sure they are nutritional garbage but before I got used to drinking my coffee black I relied on them.
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I don't know if they have this in New Zealand but I drink Fairlife 2% milk. It is 100% cows milk. It is not as sweet as regular milk though but much creamier. They remove all the bad things out and keep all the good. It also has double the protein than regular milk. Google it.0
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Raw milk. Nothing is better than that.0
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TrickyDisco wrote: »Nowhere on this thread or elsewhere have I insisted on 'educating' anyone or claimed to know the 'real facts' of people's choices ... these are your words, not mine.
I invite you to reread your contributions to this thread.
As for your claim that you expected comments from me, that's odd, since I normally think I'm more of a pro vegan poster than someone who argues against veganism. (I do argue against evangelism of all sorts, however.) I also do find the claim that dairy is "unnatural" kind of weird, but that's because the idea that there are foods we are "designed" to eat and ones we are not seems silly to me (and determined only by whether we can obtain nutrients from the food, which those of us with lactose persistence can). Whether we should is, of course, an ethical choice on which (IMO) reasonable people can differ.
I submit that your posts in this thread suggest that you would not agree with my prior sentence, but that's your right.Not trying to educate anyone here, of course, just sharing some info about dairy milk found from a reliable source.
I know where my dairy is sourced, and am not concerned about the health issues. (I suspect that others also need not be.)Unfortunately, the first part of your final sentence seems to revert to a bit of mud-slinging again. What exactly do you mean by 'my purposes'?
I think it is clear from your posts that you are indeed trying to convert people. If I'm wrong, I'm glad.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »so who are we to believe. .. The anti dairy peta propaganda or the pro dairy propaganda? :huh:
Visit some farms and decide for yourself
I get my milk here: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/peaceful-meadows-ice-cream-whitman?select=pvaO0rPvD1_u5Kk4BchO6Q
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LindzMiche wrote: »TrickyDisco wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.
Ah, that 'propaganda' word again. See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.
Is this an example of propaganda then, or are these facts? All cows on dairy farms, large or small, are kept in a state of almost continual pregnancy to produce milk, male calves are mostly slaughtered as unprofitable and cows are slaughtered as soon as their milk yield drops below required levels. People who get their dairy milk from another source (and it's highly unlikely to be from a 'pet' cow who along with her calves will be kept until they both die a natural death) will be in a tiny minority. Milk has a pus count because mastitis is commonplace throughout dairy herds.
Have you watched any of the clips on Youtube yourself and in what way would they also be 'propaganda' rather than 'whistle-blowing' on the kind of abuse which happens out of sight of the general public? Do you think the footage is somehow staged (animal-loving vegans would definitely NOT be able to do this) and, if so, how do you know that?
I'd genuinely like to know, since it may affect my own opinions on veganism.
I'm mostly vegan. I reduced my consumption of animal products for environmental and animal welfare reasons. I'm cool with Farmer Joe down the road and will get some cheese/meat from him because I see how his cows are raised and I'm good with that. They have a good life. They're doing their cow thing... eating grass and all. They aren't standing in a flood of their own feces/fed with corn/pumped full of antibiotics... you know.. non-natural cow things. I'm not okay with mass meat production for those reasons.
It kind of blows my mind.. like TrickyDisco was saying.. why is what I'm saying 'propaganda'? It's true. It happens. Go to a CAFO. Go to a slaughterhouse. See for yourself. Just because you don't want to know or don't want to believe it doesn't mean it isn't happening. That's mass production. If we all ate just a little less of it.. we wouldn't have to put the animals/environment on the backburner for profits. I know meat consumption is going down a bit.. so that's good news.. but man.. you all get so defensive... and facts become 'propaganda'
As for milk.. and those accusing vegans of caring about animals but not things like water intensive crops like almonds. I switched to cashew milk because of the almond drought thing.
I'm a strong believer in voting with my money.. and that's what I do with my diet. If you all want to bash me for that.. go ahead.. but the hostility towards vegans is pretty bananas. I know some came out with some strong descriptions.. more than I would get into.. but different things work on different people.
I'm an omnivore and I approve of this message.0
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