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Calories vs. 2nd Law of Thermodynamics

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  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
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    ClosetBayesian wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    ClosetBayesian wrote: »
    I did read that one; however, if you Google (I know...) "calories thermodynamics", this paper is one of the first results. My educational background and current occupation are in statistics (I have managed to successfully avoid formal instruction in physics, although that has taken some active effort on my part); I was hoping for a more hard science-esque discussion here as opposed to the Calorie is a Calorie thread. I figured this was TEF, but admittedly Feinman's name on it got my attention (argumentum ad verecundiam argumentum ab auctoritate? One of those.).

    I actually forgot you were the OP and was directing that elsewhere. Mea maxima culpa and all that!

    All good :)
    senecarr wrote: »
    Now that I'm thinking of it, he's trying to make an argument about where you keep track of the ledgers. His argument only holds if we assume TEF needs to be considered part of calories in, but it isn't.
    Might as well say GU packs are the most thermogenic foods out there. Almost every time someone is eating a GU pack, their calories out is going through the roof compared to BMR.

    I'm still held up on the physics (I fully admit I may be majoring in the minors - this is not the first thread where that's been suggested, and I am sure it will not be the last - , but I'm going to do it anyway).

    From what I gather, TEF has relatively little effect on weight loss, especially in the long-term (no, I'm not going to cite that); the fact that TEF has little effect long-term doesn't appear to counter Feinman & Fine's position in their review; rather, that comes across as more of a "yes-but" statement. In other words, if TEF has a miniscule effect in terms of overall weight loss, are Feinman and Fine technically correct in that TEF indicates the "calorie is a calorie" statement does violate the second law of thermodynamics? Why/why not?

    It doesn't violate a calorie is a calorie because it pretends that bodily processes required to access the calories in a food are somehow indicative of the calories being different.
    It's silly, as senecarr stated since that's simply part of your calorie expenditure. In the same sense you could say 100 calories of wild boar meat are different than 100 calories of boar meat you buy at the store because you had to hunt to get the wild boar, which expended extra calories.
  • senecarr
    senecarr Posts: 5,377 Member
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    stevencloser wrote: »
    ClosetBayesian wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    ClosetBayesian wrote: »
    I did read that one; however, if you Google (I know...) "calories thermodynamics", this paper is one of the first results. My educational background and current occupation are in statistics (I have managed to successfully avoid formal instruction in physics, although that has taken some active effort on my part); I was hoping for a more hard science-esque discussion here as opposed to the Calorie is a Calorie thread. I figured this was TEF, but admittedly Feinman's name on it got my attention (argumentum ad verecundiam argumentum ab auctoritate? One of those.).

    I actually forgot you were the OP and was directing that elsewhere. Mea maxima culpa and all that!

    All good :)
    senecarr wrote: »
    Now that I'm thinking of it, he's trying to make an argument about where you keep track of the ledgers. His argument only holds if we assume TEF needs to be considered part of calories in, but it isn't.
    Might as well say GU packs are the most thermogenic foods out there. Almost every time someone is eating a GU pack, their calories out is going through the roof compared to BMR.

    I'm still held up on the physics (I fully admit I may be majoring in the minors - this is not the first thread where that's been suggested, and I am sure it will not be the last - , but I'm going to do it anyway).

    From what I gather, TEF has relatively little effect on weight loss, especially in the long-term (no, I'm not going to cite that); the fact that TEF has little effect long-term doesn't appear to counter Feinman & Fine's position in their review; rather, that comes across as more of a "yes-but" statement. In other words, if TEF has a miniscule effect in terms of overall weight loss, are Feinman and Fine technically correct in that TEF indicates the "calorie is a calorie" statement does violate the second law of thermodynamics? Why/why not?

    It doesn't violate a calorie is a calorie because it pretends that bodily processes required to access the calories in a food are somehow indicative of the calories being different.
    It's silly, as senecarr stated since that's simply part of your calorie expenditure. In the same sense you could say 100 calories of wild boar meat are different than 100 calories of boar meat you buy at the store because you had to hunt to get the wild boar, which expended extra calories.

    Or the walk-in freezer version versus the regular frozen section, because the walk-in freezer is taking body heat out faster.
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    So in the figure below they're saying that the calorimeter value for protein and carbs is the same, so routes 1&2 liberate the same amount of energy, therefore the conversion route 3 has to be zero energy in order to get to the same state regardless of route. But we know GNG requires ATP therefore there's a problem. Did I read that right ?

    1475-2891-3-9-1.jpg
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    Here's a related conundrum.

    Which has more calories, 342g of sucrose or 360g of glucose & fructose in a 50/50 mix.

    C12H22O11 + H2O --> 2 x C6H12O6


    144 + 22 + 176 = 342 72 + 12 + 96 = 180 * 2 = 360
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