worth watching - Sugar: The Bitter Truth
Replies
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if it was as simple as CICO, then there would not be so many posts/threads saying they are struggling etc or that they can not lose weight, what those people are asking for is some motivation/help, true or false, even if it helps one person that was struggling to lose weight, it did it's job, obviously more the better
heck, even if a slap around the face/a stern telling off helped them to start losing weight, then it did it's job
if losing weight/staying healthy was simple/easy, then there would be no need for companies like FitBit, forums like MFP
WW membership costs a fair bit, as do their products, yet lots of people buy them and pay a monthly membership fee, their food tastes like crap, yet they eat them, why? when all they have to do was moderate their intake
for some people, just simply telling them CICO is all that they need, for some others, they need that little extra, and for some, it doesn't matter what you do or say
TBH, I couldn't care less about the replies, I knew why I posted what I did, and if it helped just one person, then as far as I am concerned, it did its job
I'm here to gossip and help others lose weight, I could quite happily spend my time doing better stuff like watching tv and shopping, heck the time I spend here reading posts and replying to posts, I could have been jogging and burning calories
People fail for many reasons, but that doesn't discount CICO. There are companies because they recognize they can make money from peoples lack of motivation and/or lack of knowledge (i.e. supplements). Even Dr. Oz's recognizes the benefit from flower language and placebo effects (which a placebo can be powerful in the beginning). Its why there are so many diets out there and why failure rates are so high. Watching the bitter truth, isn't going to change that.0 -
JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Eggheads need to learn that 1:29 videos won't be watched.
It has over 6 million views on You Tube.
That's pretty good going for a nutrition video I would say.
Any post click will result in a "view" on YouTube, even if they only watch for a few seconds.0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Eggheads need to learn that 1:29 videos won't be watched.
It has over 6 million views on You Tube.
That's pretty good going for a nutrition video I would say.
Any post click will result in a "view" on YouTube, even if they only watch for a few seconds.
Fair point (although I just tried doing that from both my PC and my phone and the view count didn't change so maybe that is applicable to unique user views or something else?)0 -
you say it isn't going to change that, how do you know, have you asked everyone that has watched it or similar videos? that is the opinion of yours, those that it hasn't changed and those that think it is *censored*
I never said that it will help everyone, but like I said, if it even helps just one, then it did it's job
like you said, regardless of what reason people have to diet, some or rather lost of people will fail, yet they keep trying, the problem is the reasoning behind wanting to lose weight, I can hold my hand high and say I have tried a few times, and whether I can keep going this time, I've no idea, but the diet is going longer than all other tries and having the best results
so if the said video helps change their view and how they eat, then success0 -
JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Eggheads need to learn that 1:29 videos won't be watched.
I bailed after 16 minutes. I don't drink sugar water anyway.
So you watched more than OP. You win the thread prize! ;-)0 -
I think you need to watch the vid at least a certain amount of time before it registers it as a view
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KarlynKeto wrote: »KarlynKeto wrote: »I've not watched the whole thing, just the first 10 mins or so
I just thought it would help motivate/push those struggling to lose weight
You say it is just the simple case of burning more than you eat, nobody is denying that,
so instead of just saying no it is not worth watching, why not post one or something that will help those that are struggling to lose weight etc
but before you think I am attacking you and go on the offensive, don't bother, that is not my intention
I just want to help those struggling, which is the whole point of fitbit and this forum
Your intentions are golden, but the reception is not always that warm around here. The CICO advice plays like a broken record around here, but it is very old advice that hasn't helped many people for decades. People need better help then being slammed in a forum that is suppose to support people.
I personally had to change my beliefs about food entirely before I could start really losing weight and getting healthy. Even had to relearn how to cook. The CICO approach failed me many times. It wasn't until I dumped this outdated POV that I began to succeed. Instead of looking at food as if all calories are the exact same, look at food from a nutritional view. When you do this foods like refined sugars, fast foods, and artificial additives don't look so appetizing anymore. I also read a ton about insulin spikes and the role of hormones, which made a lot more sense then a bunch of internet guys implying I (and others here) are just stupid and doing it wrong. Stay strong, join a group here that focuses on clean eating or whatever preference you prefer, and ignore the main boards for advice.
CICO is an energy balance equation, not a diet. All diets follow it. And no one on here is stating that you shouldn't be looking to eat whole nutrient dense foods, that will satiate you, and provide your body with the fuel it needs to achieve a goals. When people say statements like this, they are misinterpreting what members are saying. Many of us will promoting find a lifestyle or diet approach that is sustainable, addresses nutritional requirements and keeps you full. Personally, I think Eric Helms has a good picture on this subject:
I have no beef with people who promote healthy lifestyle -- whatever that is for them. As for the calorie in calorie out method I don't doubt that the approach has its merit, it just cannot stand on its own for many people. the original poster here pretty much got the door slammed in his face. Why? Because he read or saw something that looked credible to him? This has happened repeatedly on many threads. One has to be very careful of what questions they ask around here or some of the regulars are going to get rude with them. It's as if there's only one way to do it right, and every other option is just wrong.
/rant
Again, CICO is not an approach, a diet, a method... it is an energy balance equation. When diets work (and they all work) it is because of CICO, period end of story. IMO, when it comes to fat loss, we confuse the how with the why...0 -
if it was as simple as CICO, then there would not be so many posts/threads saying they are struggling etc or that they can not lose weight, what those people are asking for is some motivation/help, true or false, even if it helps one person that was struggling to lose weight, it did it's job, obviously more the better
heck, even if a slap around the face/a stern telling off helped them to start losing weight, then it did it's job
if losing weight/staying healthy was simple/easy, then there would be no need for companies like FitBit, forums like MFP
WW membership costs a fair bit, as do their products, yet lots of people buy them and pay a monthly membership fee, their food tastes like crap, yet they eat them, why? when all they have to do was moderate their intake
for some people, just simply telling them CICO is all that they need, for some others, they need that little extra, and for some, it doesn't matter what you do or say
TBH, I couldn't care less about the replies, I knew why I posted what I did, and if it helped just one person, then as far as I am concerned, it did its job
I'm here to gossip and help others lose weight, I could quite happily spend my time doing better stuff like watching tv and shopping, heck the time I spend here reading posts and replying to posts, I could have been jogging and burning calories
There's so many people not knowing how to lose weight BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE THE GUY IN THE VIDEO YOU POSTED.
I'm gonna lean out the window here a bit (though I'm almost 100% it's true), and say that nutrition and exercise are by far the two scientific topics with the most BS floating around about them. There's people painting boogeymen on the wall and people selling miracle cures, there's people who won't for the love of god accept that it's all in their hands and not some cruel jest of fate that they're the weight they are, people who would do anything to lose weight, except do what needs to be done.
That's why there's so many posts of people who don't lose weight. They're eyeballing, overexaggerating their exercise, thinking "eating healthy" (whatever they think that is) is enough without eating less, giving up after 2 days without the scale showing a smaller number. They don't understand what's behind weight loss, and videos like that are doing the opposite of helping.0 -
I think you need to watch the vid at least a certain amount of time before it registers it as a view
30 seconds
http://marketingland.com/whats-a-video-view-on-facebook-only-3-seconds-vs-30-at-youtube-1283110 -
stevencloser wrote: »if it was as simple as CICO, then there would not be so many posts/threads saying they are struggling etc or that they can not lose weight, what those people are asking for is some motivation/help, true or false, even if it helps one person that was struggling to lose weight, it did it's job, obviously more the better
heck, even if a slap around the face/a stern telling off helped them to start losing weight, then it did it's job
if losing weight/staying healthy was simple/easy, then there would be no need for companies like FitBit, forums like MFP
WW membership costs a fair bit, as do their products, yet lots of people buy them and pay a monthly membership fee, their food tastes like crap, yet they eat them, why? when all they have to do was moderate their intake
for some people, just simply telling them CICO is all that they need, for some others, they need that little extra, and for some, it doesn't matter what you do or say
TBH, I couldn't care less about the replies, I knew why I posted what I did, and if it helped just one person, then as far as I am concerned, it did its job
I'm here to gossip and help others lose weight, I could quite happily spend my time doing better stuff like watching tv and shopping, heck the time I spend here reading posts and replying to posts, I could have been jogging and burning calories
There's so many people not knowing how to lose weight BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE THE GUY IN THE VIDEO YOU POSTED.
I'm gonna lean out the window here a bit (though I'm almost 100% it's true), and say that nutrition and exercise are by far the two scientific topics with the most BS floating around about them. There's people painting boogeymen on the wall and people selling miracle cures, there's people who won't for the love of god accept that it's all in their hands and not some cruel jest of fate that they're the weight they are, people who would do anything to lose weight, except do what needs to be done.
That's why there's so many posts of people who don't lose weight. They're eyeballing, overexaggerating their exercise, thinking "eating healthy" is enough without eating less, giving up after 2 days without the scale showing a smaller number. They don't understand what's behind weight loss, and videos like that are doing the opposite of helping.
Exactly! They oversimplify the science of fat loss while at the same time, overcomplicate the execution...
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you say it isn't going to change that, how do you know, have you asked everyone that has watched it or similar videos? that is the opinion of yours, those that it hasn't changed and those that think it is *censored*
If telling people that Coke gives you syphilis leads some people to stop drinking Coke and they end up losing weight, does that make it a good thing to do?
IMO, motivation isn't all that matters. Truth and accuracy is primary. People will do what they do with the truth.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »if it was as simple as CICO, then there would not be so many posts/threads saying they are struggling etc or that they can not lose weight, what those people are asking for is some motivation/help, true or false, even if it helps one person that was struggling to lose weight, it did it's job, obviously more the better
heck, even if a slap around the face/a stern telling off helped them to start losing weight, then it did it's job
if losing weight/staying healthy was simple/easy, then there would be no need for companies like FitBit, forums like MFP
WW membership costs a fair bit, as do their products, yet lots of people buy them and pay a monthly membership fee, their food tastes like crap, yet they eat them, why? when all they have to do was moderate their intake
for some people, just simply telling them CICO is all that they need, for some others, they need that little extra, and for some, it doesn't matter what you do or say
TBH, I couldn't care less about the replies, I knew why I posted what I did, and if it helped just one person, then as far as I am concerned, it did its job
I'm here to gossip and help others lose weight, I could quite happily spend my time doing better stuff like watching tv and shopping, heck the time I spend here reading posts and replying to posts, I could have been jogging and burning calories
There's so many people not knowing how to lose weight BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE THE GUY IN THE VIDEO YOU POSTED.
I'm gonna lean out the window here a bit (though I'm almost 100% it's true), and say that nutrition and exercise are by far the two scientific topics with the most BS floating around about them. There's people painting boogeymen on the wall and people selling miracle cures, there's people who won't for the love of god accept that it's all in their hands and not some cruel jest of fate that they're the weight they are, people who would do anything to lose weight, except do what needs to be done.
That's why there's so many posts of people who don't lose weight. They're eyeballing, overexaggerating their exercise, thinking "eating healthy" (whatever they think that is) is enough without eating less, giving up after 2 days without the scale showing a smaller number. They don't understand what's behind weight loss, and videos like that are doing the opposite of helping.
Agreed.
I lost a fair amount of weight back in the early 90s (about 20% of my total body weight) and maybe it is nostalgia kicking in but dieting seemed way simpler back then. Eat a calorie controlled, balanced diet and take some regular exercise. It seemed to work and then dieting advice got a bit weird...0 -
people know smoking causes cancer, does that stop them? some do, and not all succeed, so then why do we have patches etc, to help them, we always see government adverts etc telling us smoking is bad for us
many continue or give up trying to stop
you can spout all the truth and data you want at them, if they have no motivation to stop, and stay sopped, they will not stop
myself and my brother in law tried stopping smoking numerous times and failed, in the end it was the decision to buy and look after tropical fish that helped up to stop, I've long since stopped looking after fish, cost me just as much as smoking! my brother inlaw has gone nuts and has loads of fish now, anymore and he could open up a fish shop....0 -
people know smoking causes cancer, does that stop them? some do, and not all succeed, so then why do we have patches etc, to help them, we always see government adverts etc telling us smoking is bad for us
many continue or give up trying to stop
you can spout all the truth and data you want at them, if they have no motivation to stop, and stay sopped, they will not stop
myself and my brother in law tried stopping smoking numerous times and failed, in the end it was the decision to buy and look after tropical fish that helped up to stop, I've long since stopped looking after fish, cost me just as much as smoking! my brother inlaw has gone nuts and has loads of fish now, anymore and he could open up a fish shop....
Okay, based on your last two posts, are you saying....that giving someone information you know is false is fine as long as it motivates them to lose weight? Because that's messed up.0 -
people know smoking causes cancer, does that stop them? some do, and not all succeed, so then why do we have patches etc, to help them, we always see government adverts etc telling us smoking is bad for us
many continue or give up trying to stop
you can spout all the truth and data you want at them, if they have no motivation to stop, and stay sopped, they will not stop
myself and my brother in law tried stopping smoking numerous times and failed, in the end it was the decision to buy and look after tropical fish that helped up to stop, I've long since stopped looking after fish, cost me just as much as smoking! my brother inlaw has gone nuts and has loads of fish now, anymore and he could open up a fish shop....
Because nicotine is an addictive substance that makes you physically dependant?0 -
you can spout all the truth and data you want at them, if they have no motivation to stop, and stay sopped, they will not stop
Sure and some people get excellent results by a strong belief in the wrong reasons. The problem is what happens if they need to repeat the process and conditions have changed?
If you are to be free and in control of your life and not life in control of you then knowledge of the right reasons is a much better basis for long term success.
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And there's the real issue. If ANYONE wants to really lose weight, they'll just eat less than then burn. They don't need fancy or crazy diets to do it. Just a little self control, discipline and a willingness to change habitual behavior.people know smoking causes cancer, does that stop them? some do, and not all succeed, so then why do we have patches etc, to help them, we always see government adverts etc telling us smoking is bad for us
many continue or give up trying to stop
you can spout all the truth and data you want at them, if they have no motivation to stop, and stay sopped, they will not stop
myself and my brother in law tried stopping smoking numerous times and failed, in the end it was the decision to buy and look after tropical fish that helped up to stop, I've long since stopped looking after fish, cost me just as much as smoking! my brother inlaw has gone nuts and has loads of fish now, anymore and he could open up a fish shop....
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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When human physiology actually changes, then you can say that CICO is outdated. Problem is human physiology hasn't changed in thousands of years.KarlynKeto wrote: »I've not watched the whole thing, just the first 10 mins or so
I just thought it would help motivate/push those struggling to lose weight
You say it is just the simple case of burning more than you eat, nobody is denying that,
so instead of just saying no it is not worth watching, why not post one or something that will help those that are struggling to lose weight etc
but before you think I am attacking you and go on the offensive, don't bother, that is not my intention
I just want to help those struggling, which is the whole point of fitbit and this forum
Your intentions are golden, but the reception is not always that warm around here. The CICO advice plays like a broken record around here, but it is very old advice that hasn't helped many people for decades. People need better help then being slammed in a forum that is suppose to support people.
I personally had to change my beliefs about food entirely before I could start really losing weight and getting healthy. Even had to relearn how to cook. The CICO approach failed me many times. It wasn't until I dumped this outdated POV that I began to succeed. Instead of looking at food as if all calories are the exact same, look at food from a nutritional view. When you do this foods like refined sugars, fast foods, and artificial additives don't look so appetizing anymore. I also read a ton about insulin spikes and the role of hormones, which made a lot more sense then a bunch of internet guys implying I (and others here) are just stupid and doing it wrong. Stay strong, join a group here that focuses on clean eating or whatever preference you prefer, and ignore the main boards for advice.
If you failed it's because you likely didn't do it right. Many of my clientele thought the same till they ACTUALLY did start counting calories.
And trust the countries that don't have an obesity problem aren't eating "clean" on a daily basis. They just eat ENOUGH and not a surplus.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The CICO failed me (as it failed many) because dieting by this rule alone -- which seems to be popular advice around here -- isn't sustainable for so many. Sooner or later the hunger cravings hit hard, the social pressures or whatever other reasons hit hard, and before you know it bad habits and weight gain re-emerge. It is just a bad cycle for many, which is failure. Once I started looking past this advice-in-a-bubble (which many diet gurus like Oprah loves to push too) and started looking at food as medicine and not just all equal calories, and started to understand how other factors play a role besides calories such as hormones and insulin spikes, I then chose to revamp my FOOD not my calories. In a nutshell I chose much healthier foods, re-learned how to cook, chose to avoid certain foods completely (something that really erks people around here, lol), and I don't count calories at all. I just eat better at all my meals. Does this mean I am eating less calories than consuming? Of course. I have lost close to 70 pounds staying focused on food quality and not focused on the calories, and after 7 months I feel just as motivated as when I started. This method FEELS sustainable, and it is the method that has worked for many.
As the for the Lustig debate, avoiding refined sugar is definitely one of the smarter choices I have made. I don't care about the minutia details being debated about Lustig. It is irrelevant to me if China does or does not eat refined sugars. It is irrelevant to me what percentage of glucose to fructose is in HFCS. Did Lustig get those details wrong? As if I care! I am not going to focus on shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, which really doesn't matter because the bigger picture (the ship is sinking!) is really what matters. The hatred for him on this board is clearly thick, (and frankly, he is not the only medical doc who published a popular book who gets accused of being a fraud around here. Just read the recent vegan thread about McDougall.) but his primary message is sane advice: cut back on consuming refined sugars. Focus on the foods, not calories. People CAN learn from that, and can find success like they never could by simply following a CICO plan.0 -
KarlynKeto wrote: »
When human physiology actually changes, then you can say that CICO is outdated. Problem is human physiology hasn't changed in thousands of years.KarlynKeto wrote: »I've not watched the whole thing, just the first 10 mins or so
I just thought it would help motivate/push those struggling to lose weight
You say it is just the simple case of burning more than you eat, nobody is denying that,
so instead of just saying no it is not worth watching, why not post one or something that will help those that are struggling to lose weight etc
but before you think I am attacking you and go on the offensive, don't bother, that is not my intention
I just want to help those struggling, which is the whole point of fitbit and this forum
Your intentions are golden, but the reception is not always that warm around here. The CICO advice plays like a broken record around here, but it is very old advice that hasn't helped many people for decades. People need better help then being slammed in a forum that is suppose to support people.
I personally had to change my beliefs about food entirely before I could start really losing weight and getting healthy. Even had to relearn how to cook. The CICO approach failed me many times. It wasn't until I dumped this outdated POV that I began to succeed. Instead of looking at food as if all calories are the exact same, look at food from a nutritional view. When you do this foods like refined sugars, fast foods, and artificial additives don't look so appetizing anymore. I also read a ton about insulin spikes and the role of hormones, which made a lot more sense then a bunch of internet guys implying I (and others here) are just stupid and doing it wrong. Stay strong, join a group here that focuses on clean eating or whatever preference you prefer, and ignore the main boards for advice.
If you failed it's because you likely didn't do it right. Many of my clientele thought the same till they ACTUALLY did start counting calories.
And trust the countries that don't have an obesity problem aren't eating "clean" on a daily basis. They just eat ENOUGH and not a surplus.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The CICO failed me (as it failed many) because dieting by this rule alone -- which seems to be popular advice around here -- isn't sustainable for so many. Sooner or later the hunger cravings hit hard, the social pressures or whatever other reasons hit hard, and before you know it bad habits and weight gain re-emerge. It is just a bad cycle for many, which is failure. Once I started looking past this advice-in-a-bubble (which many diet gurus like Oprah loves to push too) and started looking at food as medicine and not just all equal calories, and started to understand how other factors play a role besides calories such as hormones and insulin spikes, I then chose to revamp my FOOD not my calories. In a nutshell I chose much healthier foods, re-learned how to cook, chose to avoid certain foods completely (something that really erks people around here, lol), and I don't count calories at all. I just eat better at all my meals. Does this mean I am eating less calories than consuming? Of course. I have lost close to 70 pounds staying focused on food quality and not focused on the calories, and after 7 months I feel just as motivated as when I started. This method FEELS sustainable, and it is the method that has worked for many.
As the for the Lustig debate, avoiding refined sugar is definitely one of the smarter choices I have made. I don't care about the minutia details being debated about Lustig. It is irrelevant to me if China does or does not eat refined sugars. It is irrelevant to me what percentage of glucose to fructose is in HFCS. Did Lustig get those details wrong? As if I care! I am not going to focus on shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, which really doesn't matter because the bigger picture (the ship is sinking!) is really what matters. The hatred for him on this board is clearly thick, (and frankly, he is not the only medical doc who published a popular book who gets accused of being a fraud around here. Just read the recent vegan thread about McDougall.) but his primary message is sane advice: cut back on consuming refined sugars. Focus on the foods, not calories. People CAN learn from that, and can find success like they never could by simply following a CICO plan.
In other words, you're losing weight because of CICO.
There is no CICO plan. It's not a plan. It's a formula. If you're losing weight because you've reduced your calories below the number you need to maintain a given weight, that's CICO. It doesn't matter if you're eating 80/10/10, LCHF, paleo, vegetarian, 5:2, the Twinkie diet, Weight Watchers, BeachBody 21DF, or just good old-fashioned eating less of what you used to eat: if you're consuming fewer calories than you burn, tht's CICO.0 -
KarlynKeto wrote: »
When human physiology actually changes, then you can say that CICO is outdated. Problem is human physiology hasn't changed in thousands of years.KarlynKeto wrote: »I've not watched the whole thing, just the first 10 mins or so
I just thought it would help motivate/push those struggling to lose weight
You say it is just the simple case of burning more than you eat, nobody is denying that,
so instead of just saying no it is not worth watching, why not post one or something that will help those that are struggling to lose weight etc
but before you think I am attacking you and go on the offensive, don't bother, that is not my intention
I just want to help those struggling, which is the whole point of fitbit and this forum
Your intentions are golden, but the reception is not always that warm around here. The CICO advice plays like a broken record around here, but it is very old advice that hasn't helped many people for decades. People need better help then being slammed in a forum that is suppose to support people.
I personally had to change my beliefs about food entirely before I could start really losing weight and getting healthy. Even had to relearn how to cook. The CICO approach failed me many times. It wasn't until I dumped this outdated POV that I began to succeed. Instead of looking at food as if all calories are the exact same, look at food from a nutritional view. When you do this foods like refined sugars, fast foods, and artificial additives don't look so appetizing anymore. I also read a ton about insulin spikes and the role of hormones, which made a lot more sense then a bunch of internet guys implying I (and others here) are just stupid and doing it wrong. Stay strong, join a group here that focuses on clean eating or whatever preference you prefer, and ignore the main boards for advice.
If you failed it's because you likely didn't do it right. Many of my clientele thought the same till they ACTUALLY did start counting calories.
And trust the countries that don't have an obesity problem aren't eating "clean" on a daily basis. They just eat ENOUGH and not a surplus.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The CICO failed me (as it failed many) because dieting by this rule alone -- which seems to be popular advice around here -- isn't sustainable for so many. Sooner or later the hunger cravings hit hard, the social pressures or whatever other reasons hit hard, and before you know it bad habits and weight gain re-emerge. It is just a bad cycle for many, which is failure. Once I started looking past this advice-in-a-bubble (which many diet gurus like Oprah loves to push too) and started looking at food as medicine and not just all equal calories, and started to understand how other factors play a role besides calories such as hormones and insulin spikes, I then chose to revamp my FOOD not my calories. In a nutshell I chose much healthier foods, re-learned how to cook, chose to avoid certain foods completely (something that really erks people around here, lol), and I don't count calories at all. I just eat better at all my meals. Does this mean I am eating less calories than consuming? Of course. I have lost close to 70 pounds staying focused on food quality and not focused on the calories, and after 7 months I feel just as motivated as when I started. This method FEELS sustainable, and it is the method that has worked for many.
As the for the Lustig debate, avoiding refined sugar is definitely one of the smarter choices I have made. I don't care about the minutia details being debated about Lustig. It is irrelevant to me if China does or does not eat refined sugars. It is irrelevant to me what percentage of glucose to fructose is in HFCS. Did Lustig get those details wrong? As if I care! I am not going to focus on shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, which really doesn't matter because the bigger picture (the ship is sinking!) is really what matters. The hatred for him on this board is clearly thick, (and frankly, he is not the only medical doc who published a popular book who gets accused of being a fraud around here. Just read the recent vegan thread about McDougall.) but his primary message is sane advice: cut back on consuming refined sugars. Focus on the foods, not calories. People CAN learn from that, and can find success like they never could by simply following a CICO plan.
You continually miss the point. CICO is not a method, it is simply an energy balance equation. If you diet was successful, it was because CI<CO. If your diet was not successful, it was because CI>CO. Whatever method you choose to control your CI and CO is up to you. Don't confuse the how with the why...
CICO did not fail you. You failed to make CI<CO...0 -
people know smoking causes cancer, does that stop them? some do, and not all succeed, so then why do we have patches etc, to help them, we always see government adverts etc telling us smoking is bad for us
many continue or give up trying to stop
you can spout all the truth and data you want at them, if they have no motivation to stop, and stay sopped, they will not stop
myself and my brother in law tried stopping smoking numerous times and failed, in the end it was the decision to buy and look after tropical fish that helped up to stop, I've long since stopped looking after fish, cost me just as much as smoking! my brother inlaw has gone nuts and has loads of fish now, anymore and he could open up a fish shop....
Okay, based on your last two posts, are you saying....that giving someone information you know is false is fine as long as it motivates them to lose weight? Because that's messed up.
I agree, I'm still failing to understand the take home message here.
OP seems to have good intentions and wants to help people be successful. I'm just not clear on the logic behind the statements - and I think providing inaccurate information about HOW things work can be detrimental in the long run, even if it motivates people in the short run. Motivation is but one piece of the puzzle. Having the necessary tools to be successful, as well as the basic understanding of how things work is also a requirement.
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KarlynKeto wrote: »
When human physiology actually changes, then you can say that CICO is outdated. Problem is human physiology hasn't changed in thousands of years.KarlynKeto wrote: »I've not watched the whole thing, just the first 10 mins or so
I just thought it would help motivate/push those struggling to lose weight
You say it is just the simple case of burning more than you eat, nobody is denying that,
so instead of just saying no it is not worth watching, why not post one or something that will help those that are struggling to lose weight etc
but before you think I am attacking you and go on the offensive, don't bother, that is not my intention
I just want to help those struggling, which is the whole point of fitbit and this forum
Your intentions are golden, but the reception is not always that warm around here. The CICO advice plays like a broken record around here, but it is very old advice that hasn't helped many people for decades. People need better help then being slammed in a forum that is suppose to support people.
I personally had to change my beliefs about food entirely before I could start really losing weight and getting healthy. Even had to relearn how to cook. The CICO approach failed me many times. It wasn't until I dumped this outdated POV that I began to succeed. Instead of looking at food as if all calories are the exact same, look at food from a nutritional view. When you do this foods like refined sugars, fast foods, and artificial additives don't look so appetizing anymore. I also read a ton about insulin spikes and the role of hormones, which made a lot more sense then a bunch of internet guys implying I (and others here) are just stupid and doing it wrong. Stay strong, join a group here that focuses on clean eating or whatever preference you prefer, and ignore the main boards for advice.
If you failed it's because you likely didn't do it right. Many of my clientele thought the same till they ACTUALLY did start counting calories.
And trust the countries that don't have an obesity problem aren't eating "clean" on a daily basis. They just eat ENOUGH and not a surplus.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The CICO failed me (as it failed many) because dieting by this rule alone -- which seems to be popular advice around here -- isn't sustainable for so many. Sooner or later the hunger cravings hit hard, the social pressures or whatever other reasons hit hard, and before you know it bad habits and weight gain re-emerge. It is just a bad cycle for many, which is failure. Once I started looking past this advice-in-a-bubble (which many diet gurus like Oprah loves to push too) and started looking at food as medicine and not just all equal calories, and started to understand how other factors play a role besides calories such as hormones and insulin spikes, I then chose to revamp my FOOD not my calories. In a nutshell I chose much healthier foods, re-learned how to cook, chose to avoid certain foods completely (something that really erks people around here, lol), and I don't count calories at all. I just eat better at all my meals. Does this mean I am eating less calories than consuming? Of course. I have lost close to 70 pounds staying focused on food quality and not focused on the calories, and after 7 months I feel just as motivated as when I started. This method FEELS sustainable, and it is the method that has worked for many.
As the for the Lustig debate, avoiding refined sugar is definitely one of the smarter choices I have made. I don't care about the minutia details being debated about Lustig. It is irrelevant to me if China does or does not eat refined sugars. It is irrelevant to me what percentage of glucose to fructose is in HFCS. Did Lustig get those details wrong? As if I care! I am not going to focus on shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, which really doesn't matter because the bigger picture (the ship is sinking!) is really what matters. The hatred for him on this board is clearly thick, (and frankly, he is not the only medical doc who published a popular book who gets accused of being a fraud around here. Just read the recent vegan thread about McDougall.) but his primary message is sane advice: cut back on consuming refined sugars. Focus on the foods, not calories. People CAN learn from that, and can find success like they never could by simply following a CICO plan.
And they will stay just as fat or even gain more if they don't lower their calories in the process.
Because CICO is always true, no matter whose money making scheme you do or do not believe.0 -
KarlynKeto wrote: »
When human physiology actually changes, then you can say that CICO is outdated. Problem is human physiology hasn't changed in thousands of years.KarlynKeto wrote: »I've not watched the whole thing, just the first 10 mins or so
I just thought it would help motivate/push those struggling to lose weight
You say it is just the simple case of burning more than you eat, nobody is denying that,
so instead of just saying no it is not worth watching, why not post one or something that will help those that are struggling to lose weight etc
but before you think I am attacking you and go on the offensive, don't bother, that is not my intention
I just want to help those struggling, which is the whole point of fitbit and this forum
Your intentions are golden, but the reception is not always that warm around here. The CICO advice plays like a broken record around here, but it is very old advice that hasn't helped many people for decades. People need better help then being slammed in a forum that is suppose to support people.
I personally had to change my beliefs about food entirely before I could start really losing weight and getting healthy. Even had to relearn how to cook. The CICO approach failed me many times. It wasn't until I dumped this outdated POV that I began to succeed. Instead of looking at food as if all calories are the exact same, look at food from a nutritional view. When you do this foods like refined sugars, fast foods, and artificial additives don't look so appetizing anymore. I also read a ton about insulin spikes and the role of hormones, which made a lot more sense then a bunch of internet guys implying I (and others here) are just stupid and doing it wrong. Stay strong, join a group here that focuses on clean eating or whatever preference you prefer, and ignore the main boards for advice.
If you failed it's because you likely didn't do it right. Many of my clientele thought the same till they ACTUALLY did start counting calories.
And trust the countries that don't have an obesity problem aren't eating "clean" on a daily basis. They just eat ENOUGH and not a surplus.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The CICO failed me (as it failed many) because dieting by this rule alone -- which seems to be popular advice around here -- isn't sustainable for so many. Sooner or later the hunger cravings hit hard, the social pressures or whatever other reasons hit hard, and before you know it bad habits and weight gain re-emerge. It is just a bad cycle for many, which is failure. Once I started looking past this advice-in-a-bubble (which many diet gurus like Oprah loves to push too) and started looking at food as medicine and not just all equal calories, and started to understand how other factors play a role besides calories such as hormones and insulin spikes, I then chose to revamp my FOOD not my calories. In a nutshell I chose much healthier foods, re-learned how to cook, chose to avoid certain foods completely (something that really erks people around here, lol), and I don't count calories at all. I just eat better at all my meals. Does this mean I am eating less calories than consuming? Of course. I have lost close to 70 pounds staying focused on food quality and not focused on the calories, and after 7 months I feel just as motivated as when I started. This method FEELS sustainable, and it is the method that has worked for many.
As the for the Lustig debate, avoiding refined sugar is definitely one of the smarter choices I have made. I don't care about the minutia details being debated about Lustig. It is irrelevant to me if China does or does not eat refined sugars. It is irrelevant to me what percentage of glucose to fructose is in HFCS. Did Lustig get those details wrong? As if I care! I am not going to focus on shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, which really doesn't matter because the bigger picture (the ship is sinking!) is really what matters. The hatred for him on this board is clearly thick, (and frankly, he is not the only medical doc who published a popular book who gets accused of being a fraud around here. Just read the recent vegan thread about McDougall.) but his primary message is sane advice: cut back on consuming refined sugars. Focus on the foods, not calories. People CAN learn from that, and can find success like they never could by simply following a CICO plan.
But again, CICO is not a plan. And no one who suggest that weight loss comes down to CICO is suggesting to just eat junk food. We are pretty eating whole nutritious foods that will keep you full, address your needs.
The issue, with your previous attempt, was that your implementation plan was wrong for your needs. Seemingly, you were eat the wrong types of foods and potentially, not enough calories. And like many of us said, not all foods are equal in terms of nutrition or satiety. I eat certain foods during a cut because I need lots of volume (i.e. I do taco salads as opposed to taco or egg whites instead of eggs).
Since you have looked into insulin, have you also looked into ghrelin, leptin, hormone sensitive lipase (HSL), acylation stimulating protein (ASP), or glucose-dependent insulinotrophic peptide (GIP)? They all have different effects on the body, no different than insulin.0 -
KarlynKeto wrote: »
When human physiology actually changes, then you can say that CICO is outdated. Problem is human physiology hasn't changed in thousands of years.KarlynKeto wrote: »I've not watched the whole thing, just the first 10 mins or so
I just thought it would help motivate/push those struggling to lose weight
You say it is just the simple case of burning more than you eat, nobody is denying that,
so instead of just saying no it is not worth watching, why not post one or something that will help those that are struggling to lose weight etc
but before you think I am attacking you and go on the offensive, don't bother, that is not my intention
I just want to help those struggling, which is the whole point of fitbit and this forum
Your intentions are golden, but the reception is not always that warm around here. The CICO advice plays like a broken record around here, but it is very old advice that hasn't helped many people for decades. People need better help then being slammed in a forum that is suppose to support people.
I personally had to change my beliefs about food entirely before I could start really losing weight and getting healthy. Even had to relearn how to cook. The CICO approach failed me many times. It wasn't until I dumped this outdated POV that I began to succeed. Instead of looking at food as if all calories are the exact same, look at food from a nutritional view. When you do this foods like refined sugars, fast foods, and artificial additives don't look so appetizing anymore. I also read a ton about insulin spikes and the role of hormones, which made a lot more sense then a bunch of internet guys implying I (and others here) are just stupid and doing it wrong. Stay strong, join a group here that focuses on clean eating or whatever preference you prefer, and ignore the main boards for advice.
If you failed it's because you likely didn't do it right. Many of my clientele thought the same till they ACTUALLY did start counting calories.
And trust the countries that don't have an obesity problem aren't eating "clean" on a daily basis. They just eat ENOUGH and not a surplus.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The CICO failed me (as it failed many) because dieting by this rule alone -- which seems to be popular advice around here -- isn't sustainable for so many. Sooner or later the hunger cravings hit hard, the social pressures or whatever other reasons hit hard, and before you know it bad habits and weight gain re-emerge. It is just a bad cycle for many, which is failure. Once I started looking past this advice-in-a-bubble (which many diet gurus like Oprah loves to push too) and started looking at food as medicine and not just all equal calories, and started to understand how other factors play a role besides calories such as hormones and insulin spikes, I then chose to revamp my FOOD not my calories. In a nutshell I chose much healthier foods, re-learned how to cook, chose to avoid certain foods completely (something that really erks people around here, lol), and I don't count calories at all. I just eat better at all my meals. Does this mean I am eating less calories than consuming? Of course. I have lost close to 70 pounds staying focused on food quality and not focused on the calories, and after 7 months I feel just as motivated as when I started. This method FEELS sustainable, and it is the method that has worked for many.
As the for the Lustig debate, avoiding refined sugar is definitely one of the smarter choices I have made. I don't care about the minutia details being debated about Lustig. It is irrelevant to me if China does or does not eat refined sugars. It is irrelevant to me what percentage of glucose to fructose is in HFCS. Did Lustig get those details wrong? As if I care! I am not going to focus on shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, which really doesn't matter because the bigger picture (the ship is sinking!) is really what matters. The hatred for him on this board is clearly thick, (and frankly, he is not the only medical doc who published a popular book who gets accused of being a fraud around here. Just read the recent vegan thread about McDougall.) but his primary message is sane advice: cut back on consuming refined sugars. Focus on the foods, not calories. People CAN learn from that, and can find success like they never could by simply following a CICO plan.
No YOU failed the CI/CO.
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And there's the real issue. If ANYONE wants to really lose weight, they'll just eat less than then burn. They don't need fancy or crazy diets to do it. Just a little self control, discipline and a willingness to change habitual behavior.
I find that quite an unpleasant and simplistic approach. We know that sugar has a physiological effect on the human body, we know that endocrine conditions can cause weight gain beyond that which can be explained by the pure energy equations of CICO. We also know that these endocrine conditions cause symptoms which make it increasingly difficult for people to motivate themselves to exercise. We see hormone imbalances causing behavioural shifts that can be extremely difficult to break out of.
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according to MFP, to lose the desired amount of weight I need to consume 1500 before exercise, so I will not exercise and eat/drink 1500 calories worth of candy and coke which means CI<CO, and I will take nutrient tablets to make sure I get all the nutrients I need
which means because my CI is less than CO I should lose weight
at the end of the day 1 calorie is 1 calorie right? so as long as I eat less than I need and get all the nutrients I need all will be fine0 -
according to MFP, to lose the desired amount of weight I need to consume 1500 before exercise, so I will not exercise and eat/drink 1500 calories worth of candy and coke which means CI<CO, and I will take nutrient tablets to make sure I get all the nutrients I need
which means because my CI is less than CO I should lose weight
at the end of the day 1 calorie is 1 calorie right? so as long as I eat less than I need and get all the nutrients I need all will be fine
Assuming the calculations/estimates are correct, and that you log accurately (food scale), then yes, you would lose weight. But as previous discussed, it can be difficult to get everything exact since we don't love in metabolic chambers.
Also bare in mind, that there are something like 5 or 6 (that I know of) ways of calculating metabolic and caloric requirements.0 -
tiny_clanger wrote: »And there's the real issue. If ANYONE wants to really lose weight, they'll just eat less than then burn. They don't need fancy or crazy diets to do it. Just a little self control, discipline and a willingness to change habitual behavior.
I find that quite an unpleasant and simplistic approach. We know that sugar has a physiological effect on the human body, we know that endocrine conditions can cause weight gain beyond that which can be explained by the pure energy equations of CICO. We also know that these endocrine conditions cause symptoms which make it increasingly difficult for people to motivate themselves to exercise. We see hormone imbalances causing behavioural shifts that can be extremely difficult to break out of.
Do we really know all that or do people assume we know that and use it as an excuse because self-control is hard?
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tiny_clanger wrote: »And there's the real issue. If ANYONE wants to really lose weight, they'll just eat less than then burn. They don't need fancy or crazy diets to do it. Just a little self control, discipline and a willingness to change habitual behavior.
I find that quite an unpleasant and simplistic approach. We know that sugar has a physiological effect on the human body, we know that endocrine conditions can cause weight gain beyond that which can be explained by the pure energy equations of CICO. We also know that these endocrine conditions cause symptoms which make it increasingly difficult for people to motivate themselves to exercise. We see hormone imbalances causing behavioural shifts that can be extremely difficult to break out of.
I've found it to be the opposite-it's very freeing and it's also sustainable. With 3 years of maintenance behind me and probably 40+ more ahead of me, simple is good
There's no way I'd be where I am today, if I had boxed myself in with a bunch of rules and restrictions and cut out foods that I like. Instead I focused on just eating less of the foods I enjoy, learned how portion sizes work and have enjoyed not only the weight loss, but also the better health that's come along with it. Maintenance has it's own set of challenges and no way am I making it any harder than it needs to be 
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according to MFP, to lose the desired amount of weight I need to consume 1500 before exercise, so I will not exercise and eat/drink 1500 calories worth of candy and coke which means CI<CO, and I will take nutrient tablets to make sure I get all the nutrients I need
which means because my CI is less than CO I should lose weight
at the end of the day 1 calorie is 1 calorie right? so as long as I eat less than I need and get all the nutrients I need all will be fine
Are you asking if that would work? Yes, it would work. Is anyone suggesting that's what you should do? No.
Also, why is MFP setting you at 1500 calories? I thought the bottom recommendation was 1600 for males, but even if it is 1500, that seems incredibly low for a 38 year old man. I'm a 5'2 female and can lose weight eating 1700-1900 cals/day.0
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