"You don't build muscles in a deficite"
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Thanks for such a great read everyone. This thread should be a sticky it has so much good info.
As a 62 yo 100-105lbs woman in maintenance following the All Pro programme for ~6 month, I have good strength gains but little if any muscle increase. I am thinking a bulk, instead of a recomp may be in order given my age.
Cheers, h.1 -
How much training experience did you have before beginning the 4 months of lifting?Certain "supplements" will allow you to build muscle on a mild deficit. I've tried to do it without that extra supplement and I got nowhere. My first profile picture is me after 4 months of lifting progressively, eating 170g of protein a day while on a 250 cal deficit. I got extremely lean, but build next to no muscle.
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I eat at a deficit of 300-500 calories a day and have been able to build muscle. Of course I'm naturally muscular for a woman though. A lot depends on genetics and how you work out. I do Insanity Max 30 and use a resistance stepper on alternating days.1
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@SCoil123I eat at a deficit of 300-500 calories a day and have been able to build muscle. Of course I'm naturally muscular for a woman though. A lot depends on genetics and how you work out. I do Insanity Max 30 and use a resistance stepper on alternating days.
How are you determining the muscle gain?0 -
You absolutely can gain muscle while on a deficit.0
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
How much training experience did you have before beginning the 4 months of lifting?Certain "supplements" will allow you to build muscle on a mild deficit. I've tried to do it without that extra supplement and I got nowhere. My first profile picture is me after 4 months of lifting progressively, eating 170g of protein a day while on a 250 cal deficit. I got extremely lean, but build next to no muscle.
None, other than a year of lifting in highschool.
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Great subject and a lot of good feedback already.
I want to add that I have gained muscle in the 7 months I've been in re-comp. I've been eating pretty much at maintenance with the slightest of deficit (perhaps 5% if even). I'm happy with what I've achieved so far and know I'll continue to see changes for the better. My muscle gain is not significant (although I'm very proud of my biceps and quads) but for me personally it has been enough. I am also finding I can eat more so it has had a good effect of raising my TDEE.1 -
If you're in a deficit (and therefore losing weight), you're most likely not building muscle. That said, weight loss, coupled with resistance training, leads to reduced body fat %. The lower the body fat %, the more "ripped" you'll look, which can often be interpreted as gaining muscle.1
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Where does the saying come from? Often from the people who can't build muscle in deficit - the very lean and already highly trained. So the logic becomes if I can't then no-one can!
The so called exceptions who can build some muscle in a deficit actually encompass large swathes of the population:
Overweight, under-trained, new to strength training, returning to strength training after a break, genetically gifted, young males in particular, a novel training stimulus.
When you are out and about amongst the general population as opposed to gym members you realise the lean and highly trained are really the exceptions. Sad but true.
Obviously being in a deficit hampers growth (or speed of growth) and excessive deficit is going to stop growth (unless there are exceptional circumstances like recovery from recent muscle loss - been there).
My personal tipping point as an older guy with decades of training but below my former strength peak seemed to be a deficit about half a pound a week. I lost mass at 1lb/week but saw and measured growth at 1lb/month loss.
So like 80-90% of the population would be an "exception". Guess that really doesn't qualify them as "exceptions" anymore.0 -
If you're in a deficit (and therefore losing weight), you're most likely not building muscle. That said, weight loss, coupled with resistance training, leads to reduced body fat %. The lower the body fat %, the more "ripped" you'll look, which can often be interpreted as gaining muscle.
There are exceptions tho....0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Where does the saying come from? Often from the people who can't build muscle in deficit - the very lean and already highly trained. So the logic becomes if I can't then no-one can!
The so called exceptions who can build some muscle in a deficit actually encompass large swathes of the population:
Overweight, under-trained, new to strength training, returning to strength training after a break, genetically gifted, young males in particular, a novel training stimulus.
When you are out and about amongst the general population as opposed to gym members you realise the lean and highly trained are really the exceptions. Sad but true.
Obviously being in a deficit hampers growth (or speed of growth) and excessive deficit is going to stop growth (unless there are exceptional circumstances like recovery from recent muscle loss - been there).
My personal tipping point as an older guy with decades of training but below my former strength peak seemed to be a deficit about half a pound a week. I lost mass at 1lb/week but saw and measured growth at 1lb/month loss.
So like 80-90% of the population would be an "exception". Guess that really doesn't qualify them as "exceptions" anymore.
no not 80-90% of the population.
why because 80-90% of the population doesn't do a progressive load lifting program.3 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Where does the saying come from? Often from the people who can't build muscle in deficit - the very lean and already highly trained. So the logic becomes if I can't then no-one can!
The so called exceptions who can build some muscle in a deficit actually encompass large swathes of the population:
Overweight, under-trained, new to strength training, returning to strength training after a break, genetically gifted, young males in particular, a novel training stimulus.
When you are out and about amongst the general population as opposed to gym members you realise the lean and highly trained are really the exceptions. Sad but true.
Obviously being in a deficit hampers growth (or speed of growth) and excessive deficit is going to stop growth (unless there are exceptional circumstances like recovery from recent muscle loss - been there).
My personal tipping point as an older guy with decades of training but below my former strength peak seemed to be a deficit about half a pound a week. I lost mass at 1lb/week but saw and measured growth at 1lb/month loss.
So like 80-90% of the population would be an "exception". Guess that really doesn't qualify them as "exceptions" anymore.
I'd think it's even more than that. Of course, the next issue is the segment of the population on who "can" (or more precisely "could") versus the segment of the population who "will" put in the effort to do so. I think that's where many of the forums on this topic break down. Yes, you can, but no you're not getting jacked while doing some 30 day shred. Hell, you're probably not going to get jacked in a deficit (or even in a recomp at all unless you're doing it for several years, unless you're a young male. It's not happening fast at my age).0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Where does the saying come from? Often from the people who can't build muscle in deficit - the very lean and already highly trained. So the logic becomes if I can't then no-one can!
The so called exceptions who can build some muscle in a deficit actually encompass large swathes of the population:
Overweight, under-trained, new to strength training, returning to strength training after a break, genetically gifted, young males in particular, a novel training stimulus.
When you are out and about amongst the general population as opposed to gym members you realise the lean and highly trained are really the exceptions. Sad but true.
Obviously being in a deficit hampers growth (or speed of growth) and excessive deficit is going to stop growth (unless there are exceptional circumstances like recovery from recent muscle loss - been there).
My personal tipping point as an older guy with decades of training but below my former strength peak seemed to be a deficit about half a pound a week. I lost mass at 1lb/week but saw and measured growth at 1lb/month loss.
So like 80-90% of the population would be an "exception". Guess that really doesn't qualify them as "exceptions" anymore.
no not 80-90% of the population.
why because 80-90% of the population doesn't do a progressive load lifting program.
That they don't lift or don't understand the importance or benefits of strength/resistance training is another issue altogether. Having the potential and actually doing it are two separate things.
I just wish that people making comments such as "you can't build muscle in a deficit" or the alternative (and equally wrong) "you need a calorie surplus to build muscle" would actually be far less black and white in making their absolute comments and try to put some thought into the context of the person and their individual circumstances.
I started training in an era when people went to the gym to get in shape and build muscle/strength and bulk/cut cycles were the preserve of elite body builders only. IMHO there's now far too much emphasis on calorie balance and not enough on the actual training which is where the stimulus for growth comes from.
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Packerjohn wrote: »Where does the saying come from? Often from the people who can't build muscle in deficit - the very lean and already highly trained. So the logic becomes if I can't then no-one can!
The so called exceptions who can build some muscle in a deficit actually encompass large swathes of the population:
Overweight, under-trained, new to strength training, returning to strength training after a break, genetically gifted, young males in particular, a novel training stimulus.
When you are out and about amongst the general population as opposed to gym members you realise the lean and highly trained are really the exceptions. Sad but true.
Obviously being in a deficit hampers growth (or speed of growth) and excessive deficit is going to stop growth (unless there are exceptional circumstances like recovery from recent muscle loss - been there).
My personal tipping point as an older guy with decades of training but below my former strength peak seemed to be a deficit about half a pound a week. I lost mass at 1lb/week but saw and measured growth at 1lb/month loss.
So like 80-90% of the population would be an "exception". Guess that really doesn't qualify them as "exceptions" anymore.
no not 80-90% of the population.
why because 80-90% of the population doesn't do a progressive load lifting program.
That they don't lift or don't understand the importance or benefits of strength/resistance training is another issue altogether. Having the potential and actually doing it are two separate things.
I just wish that people making comments such as "you can't build muscle in a deficit" or the alternative (and equally wrong) "you need a calorie surplus to build muscle" would actually be far less black and white in making their absolute comments and try to put some thought into the context of the person and their individual circumstances.
I started training in an era when people went to the gym to get in shape and build muscle/strength and bulk/cut cycles were the preserve of elite body builders only. IMHO there's now far too much emphasis on calorie balance and not enough on the actual training which is where the stimulus for growth comes from.
That is very true and the more I thought about it....that statement is true (no longer the exception) because most people in North America are under trained and overweight...
I never really think more about it as building muscle is not a priority for me...if it happens it happens (recomp style) but I will correct people who are on the forums saying "oh that 5lbs is probably muscle you built" when the person really is not doing the training to build muscle.1 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Where does the saying come from? Often from the people who can't build muscle in deficit - the very lean and already highly trained. So the logic becomes if I can't then no-one can!
The so called exceptions who can build some muscle in a deficit actually encompass large swathes of the population:
Overweight, under-trained, new to strength training, returning to strength training after a break, genetically gifted, young males in particular, a novel training stimulus.
When you are out and about amongst the general population as opposed to gym members you realise the lean and highly trained are really the exceptions. Sad but true.
Obviously being in a deficit hampers growth (or speed of growth) and excessive deficit is going to stop growth (unless there are exceptional circumstances like recovery from recent muscle loss - been there).
My personal tipping point as an older guy with decades of training but below my former strength peak seemed to be a deficit about half a pound a week. I lost mass at 1lb/week but saw and measured growth at 1lb/month loss.
So like 80-90% of the population would be an "exception". Guess that really doesn't qualify them as "exceptions" anymore.
I'd think it's even more than that. Of course, the next issue is the segment of the population on who "can" (or more precisely "could") versus the segment of the population who "will" put in the effort to do so. I think that's where many of the forums on this topic break down. Yes, you can, but no you're not getting jacked while doing some 30 day shred. Hell, you're probably not going to get jacked in a deficit (or even in a recomp at all unless you're doing it for several years, unless you're a young male. It's not happening fast at my age).
I'm a young guy but I didn't get close to jacked on multiple months of deficit and later maintenance/recomp. Once the initial improvements from never having touched a weight in my life before stopped, it pretty much stagnated around the same strength level and look with maybe an improvement of adding 5 pounds on my lifts in the whole time. But when I started a surplus, hoo boy did my lifts go up quickly. It's not even comparable IMO. Yes you can build muscle in a deficit, but really it ain't all that much.0 -
I just wish that people making comments such as "you can't build muscle in a deficit" or the alternative (and equally wrong) "you need a calorie surplus to build muscle" would actually be far less black and white in making their absolute comments and try to put some thought into the context of the person and their individual circumstances.
I get what you are saying but people saying the first statement in this forum are saying it to those people who are eating "900 calories a day" and doing couch to 5k and gaining 2 lbs of muscle the first week of doing the program.
And the "you need a calorie surplus to build muscle" is used generally because isn't it, coupled with a good lifting program, the MOST EFFICIENT way to gain muscle?0 -
I just wish that people making comments such as "you can't build muscle in a deficit" or the alternative (and equally wrong) "you need a calorie surplus to build muscle" would actually be far less black and white in making their absolute comments and try to put some thought into the context of the person and their individual circumstances.
I get what you are saying but people saying the first statement in this forum are saying it to those people who are eating "900 calories a day" and doing couch to 5k and gaining 2 lbs of muscle the first week of doing the program.
And the "you need a calorie surplus to build muscle" is used generally because isn't it, coupled with a good lifting program, the MOST EFFICIENT way to gain muscle?
Actually the statement is not only made in your sensible context (normally by the people with some idea what they are talking about!) but also as an absolute statement made to everyone by the uninformed.
I've seen 18 year old chubby males, new to lifting, and being in a very moderate deficit told it's impossible for example which is plainly silly.
I've seen you need a calorie surplus given to someone who has just hit goal weight with no stated body composition or training goals (beyond the infamous "getting toned" !) being told to bulk.
Context is everything.
BTW - careful about using "efficient". Doing two things at once is more efficient but having a surplus may well be expected to be build muscle quicker.
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I just wish that people making comments such as "you can't build muscle in a deficit" or the alternative (and equally wrong) "you need a calorie surplus to build muscle" would actually be far less black and white in making their absolute comments and try to put some thought into the context of the person and their individual circumstances.
I get what you are saying but people saying the first statement in this forum are saying it to those people who are eating "900 calories a day" and doing couch to 5k and gaining 2 lbs of muscle the first week of doing the program.
And the "you need a calorie surplus to build muscle" is used generally because isn't it, coupled with a good lifting program, the MOST EFFICIENT way to gain muscle?
Actually the statement is not only made in your sensible context (normally by the people with some idea what they are talking about!) but also as an absolute statement made to everyone by the uninformed.
I've seen 18 year old chubby males, new to lifting, and being in a very moderate deficit told it's impossible for example which is plainly silly.
I've seen you need a calorie surplus given to someone who has just hit goal weight with no stated body composition or training goals (beyond the infamous "getting toned" !) being told to bulk.
Context is everything.
BTW - careful about using "efficient". Doing two things at once is more efficient but having a surplus may well be expected to be build muscle quicker.
I totally agree, context is everything.
I think we have such an enormous learning curve on the boards, from those who are seasoned and have considerable knowledge to those truly who have no knowledge about any of this. I am guilty of forgetting that there are so many who truly have NO prior knowledge or experience to anything that pertains to calories, deficit, cut, bulk, recomp, training, etc etc.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Where does the saying come from? Often from the people who can't build muscle in deficit - the very lean and already highly trained. So the logic becomes if I can't then no-one can!
The so called exceptions who can build some muscle in a deficit actually encompass large swathes of the population:
Overweight, under-trained, new to strength training, returning to strength training after a break, genetically gifted, young males in particular, a novel training stimulus.
When you are out and about amongst the general population as opposed to gym members you realise the lean and highly trained are really the exceptions. Sad but true.
Obviously being in a deficit hampers growth (or speed of growth) and excessive deficit is going to stop growth (unless there are exceptional circumstances like recovery from recent muscle loss - been there).
My personal tipping point as an older guy with decades of training but below my former strength peak seemed to be a deficit about half a pound a week. I lost mass at 1lb/week but saw and measured growth at 1lb/month loss.
So like 80-90% of the population would be an "exception". Guess that really doesn't qualify them as "exceptions" anymore.
I'd think it's even more than that. Of course, the next issue is the segment of the population on who "can" (or more precisely "could") versus the segment of the population who "will" put in the effort to do so. I think that's where many of the forums on this topic break down. Yes, you can, but no you're not getting jacked while doing some 30 day shred. Hell, you're probably not going to get jacked in a deficit (or even in a recomp at all unless you're doing it for several years, unless you're a young male. It's not happening fast at my age).
I'm a young guy but I didn't get close to jacked on multiple months of deficit and later maintenance/recomp. Once the initial improvements from never having touched a weight in my life before stopped, it pretty much stagnated around the same strength level and look with maybe an improvement of adding 5 pounds on my lifts in the whole time. But when I started a surplus, hoo boy did my lifts go up quickly. It's not even comparable IMO. Yes you can build muscle in a deficit, but really it ain't all that much.
Your strength stagnated after lifting for a while and my reference was to less than several years not months. No one is saying the rates of muscle growth are the same. The responses are to absolutist comments that one "can't" or its "impossible" to gain muscle in a deficit.
My response is also focused on newbies and the young. Let the overweight new lifters get those newbie gains while they diet down, and I'd like to encourage them to do so. I get the irritation with the people who throw a little weight around and think they suddenly gained 10 pounds in muscle when all they did was add water weight or failed to accurately count their intake. That's a scale issue though more than a muscle growth issue, and the responses of "you" didn't gain muscle in a deficit (because no deficit was achieved) are, more often than not, accurate.
No way in hell am I gaining any more muscle in a deficit. Not after training for a number of years and pushing my mid-40s. Unless, of course, I decide to start breaking the law, which isn't happening.0
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