Is the Insulin Theory of Obesity Over?

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"

It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.

The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.

Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.

You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?

For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.

For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.

Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.

Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.

I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).

After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.

I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.

Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.

Maybe we can all call a truce? If you want to slam lemon for this, maybe equally slam aqslyvester and Gale for claiming that people eating moderate to low fat are starving (I'm not, hunger is not my issue) or that we are unhealthy and on the verge of cancer and dementia? Fair is fair, after all.

I personally see what lemon does -- virtually everyone who claims to have been hungry pre low carb was eating a terrible diet not required by moderate to high carb - low veg, low fiber, often low protein. But even if that's not true (as I think is possible) it's clear it's only a subset for whom appetite is a problem or for whom carbs (even high fiber carbs) increase appetite. That, like the "I'm a carnivore" thing are things I've only run into on MFP.

I can absolutely agree with this. The idea that humans vary as to what type of diet works best is not illogical in the slightest. No, we're not all "special snowflakes" but satiety is a pretty subjective thing and what works for one may not work so well for another.

Cool -- and, yeah, for things like satiety we really are all different.

And for the record, my take on lemon's comment was the same as shell's above, which she's explained so well. We have people here sometimes claiming that "CICO didn't work" for them because in cutting calories they were so hungry. But of course if you are hungry you should experiment with different ways of eating -- sometimes it's a more moderate change (more vegetables, more protein), and sometimes a more dramatic one (LCHF). No one says "just cut calories and keep everything else exactly the same and don't think about things like satiety." In your case, I know you weren't saying that and I get why you may have seen the discovery of different types of diets as a paradigm shift or something, but I can also see someone just saying "more fat, hmm, that's really filling for me, less carbs, hmm, that also helps."

What always puzzles me is that so many traditional human diets are higher carb (and the blue zones are at least moderate carb) and yet I can't imagine there are a subset of people there always "starving" even when eating adequate calories. But who knows. I think a lot of the different ways of eating are ways of adjusting to food being always around/so available, though.

It is entirely possible that I misinterpreted lemon's comments. And it may seem like a subtle difference to some, but to me the difference between saying "you did the diet wrong" vs saying "you did the wrong diet" is huge. Huge. The former is basically saying: the diet is good, the diet is sound, all hail the diet; you suck. The latter is basically saying: you are following the diet and not seeing appropriate results; this particular diet sucks for you, time to try something different.

Personally, I'm a big believer in this philosophy as it pertains to diet - if you like what you are doing, are happy with the results, and are achieving the desired goals, great! Keep doing it. If any of the above ceases to be true, it's time to consider your alternatives.

As for the higher carb traditional diets... That's really above my pay grade . Perhaps some populations are genetically less predisposed to insulin resistance, which I believe was probably a factor in why higher carb diets were never satiating for me. I'm predominantly Anglo, Celtic, and Nordic, with a smidge of Native American. Not sure how high carb their traditional diets were...

aqsylvester wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"

It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.

The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.

Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.

You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?

For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.

For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.

Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.

Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.

I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).

After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.

I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.

Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.

Maybe we can all call a truce? If you want to slam lemon for this, maybe equally slam aqslyvester and Gale for claiming that people eating moderate to low fat are starving (I'm not, hunger is not my issue) or that we are unhealthy and on the verge of cancer and dementia? Fair is fair, after all.

I personally see what lemon does -- virtually everyone who claims to have been hungry pre low carb was eating a terrible diet not required by moderate to high carb - low veg, low fiber, often low protein. But even if that's not true (as I think is possible) it's clear it's only a subset for whom appetite is a problem or for whom carbs (even high fiber carbs) increase appetite. That, like the "I'm a carnivore" thing are things I've only run into on MFP.

I can absolutely agree with this. The idea that humans vary as to what type of diet works best is not illogical in the slightest. No, we're not all "special snowflakes" but satiety is a pretty subjective thing and what works for one may not work so well for another.

Cool -- and, yeah, for things like satiety we really are all different.

And for the record, my take on lemon's comment was the same as shell's above, which she's explained so well. We have people here sometimes claiming that "CICO didn't work" for them because in cutting calories they were so hungry. But of course if you are hungry you should experiment with different ways of eating -- sometimes it's a more moderate change (more vegetables, more protein), and sometimes a more dramatic one (LCHF). No one says "just cut calories and keep everything else exactly the same and don't think about things like satiety." In your case, I know you weren't saying that and I get why you may have seen the discovery of different types of diets as a paradigm shift or something, but I can also see someone just saying "more fat, hmm, that's really filling for me, less carbs, hmm, that also helps."

What always puzzles me is that so many traditional human diets are higher carb (and the blue zones are at least moderate carb) and yet I can't imagine there are a subset of people there always "starving" even when eating adequate calories. But who knows. I think a lot of the different ways of eating are ways of adjusting to food being always around/so available, though.

Traditional human diets might have been higher carb, but they were lacking in processed foods. It's that simple.

As others have said, bacon is a processed food. So is the smoked salmon I had this morning, and I find it quite filling (I think it's the protein, as fat usually doesn't do it for me).

That aside, I think highly processed foods are often less filling (at least for me) than less processed foods, because of things like fiber. But that's been my argument -- it's not about macro mix, but food choice.

I see others saying that even if they focus on less processed carbs like fruits and vegetables and legumes and oats and sweet potatoes, that they find having more than a small amount of carbs makes them insatiably hungry. I'm not questioning that -- I believe them. But I think there must be some intersection psychologically with the fact that foods are so available or something, as I doubt people in these traditional societies were hungry all the time.

I know for myself that I've basically not thought about food until meal time when I'm busy and away from food all day, even when I'm doing things that make my TDEE much higher than usual and even if I'm not actually eating all that much (thinking of a service trip I once took to Nicaragua, among other things).

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"

It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.

The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.

Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.

You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?

For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.

For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.

Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.

Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.

I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).

After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.

I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.

Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.

How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.

And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.

But i am glad you found what works for you.

I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.

I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.

Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).

At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.

Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.

It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range (I think my first weight in was 178?). However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.

I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet

ReaderGirl3 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"

It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.

The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.

Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.

You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?

For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.

For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.

Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.

Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.

I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).

After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.

I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.

Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.

How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.

And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.

But i am glad you found what works for you.

I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.

I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.

Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).

At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.

Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.

It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.

I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet

Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.

tlflag1620 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"

It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.

The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.

Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.

You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?

For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.

For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.

Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.

Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.

I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).

After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.

I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.

Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.

Maybe we can all call a truce? If you want to slam lemon for this, maybe equally slam aqslyvester and Gale for claiming that people eating moderate to low fat are starving (I'm not, hunger is not my issue) or that we are unhealthy and on the verge of cancer and dementia? Fair is fair, after all.

I personally see what lemon does -- virtually everyone who claims to have been hungry pre low carb was eating a terrible diet not required by moderate to high carb - low veg, low fiber, often low protein. But even if that's not true (as I think is possible) it's clear it's only a subset for whom appetite is a problem or for whom carbs (even high fiber carbs) increase appetite. That, like the "I'm a carnivore" thing are things I've only run into on MFP.

I can absolutely agree with this. The idea that humans vary as to what type of diet works best is not illogical in the slightest. No, we're not all "special snowflakes" but satiety is a pretty subjective thing and what works for one may not work so well for another.

Cool -- and, yeah, for things like satiety we really are all different.

And for the record, my take on lemon's comment was the same as shell's above, which she's explained so well. We have people here sometimes claiming that "CICO didn't work" for them because in cutting calories they were so hungry. But of course if you are hungry you should experiment with different ways of eating -- sometimes it's a more moderate change (more vegetables, more protein), and sometimes a more dramatic one (LCHF). No one says "just cut calories and keep everything else exactly the same and don't think about things like satiety." In your case, I know you weren't saying that and I get why you may have seen the discovery of different types of diets as a paradigm shift or something, but I can also see someone just saying "more fat, hmm, that's really filling for me, less carbs, hmm, that also helps."

What always puzzles me is that so many traditional human diets are higher carb (and the blue zones are at least moderate carb) and yet I can't imagine there are a subset of people there always "starving" even when eating adequate calories. But who knows. I think a lot of the different ways of eating are ways of adjusting to food being always around/so available, though.

Traditional human diets might have been higher carb, but they were lacking in processed foods. It's that simple.

As others have said, bacon is a processed food. So is the smoked salmon I had this morning, and I find it quite filling (I think it's the protein, as fat usually doesn't do it for me).

That aside, I think highly processed foods are often less filling (at least for me) than less processed foods, because of things like fiber. But that's been my argument -- it's not about macro mix, but food choice.

I see others saying that even if they focus on less processed carbs like fruits and vegetables and legumes and oats and sweet potatoes, that they find having more than a small amount of carbs makes them insatiably hungry. I'm not questioning that -- I believe them. But I think there must be some intersection psychologically with the fact that foods are so available or something, as I doubt people in these traditional societies were hungry all the time.

I know for myself that I've basically not thought about food until meal time when I'm busy and away from food all day, even when I'm doing things that make my TDEE much higher than usual and even if I'm not actually eating all that much (thinking of a service trip I once took to Nicaragua, among other things).

Not sure what psychological factors would be at play... I was a stay at home mom when doing lower fat, higher fiber, and am still a stay at home mom while doing LCHF. Food is no more or less available for me now than it was then, but I am definitely more satiated eating LC. I'm more inclined to think there may be genetic differences between populations based on how the early ancestors evolved, and what diet they evolved on. For example - some racial and ethnic groups are more predisposed to being lactose intolerant. Doesn't it stand to reason that some groups would be more prone to insulin resistance? Just musing...

I think one issue for all of us in this environment is finding a way to deal with how easily available food is and the attraction to it for hedonic and other reasons. I think it's a lot harder to avoid overeating in a situation like being a SAH mom in the current world vs. in a traditional society where you really couldn't and people didn't just snack for fun or because you had a taste for something. I could be totally wrong, but I suspect that most people who struggle with hunger in this society wouldn't if they were under the constraints of a more traditional society and just didn't have the option of eating at non standard (for the society, whatever those were) or non communal times, even if the food they ate did not change.

This is just a theory of mine, though -- could be wrong.

Anyway, based on this, I think a lot of what we all are doing is coming up with a strategy to prevent overeating in this rather tempting situation. One thing Brian Wansink has written about in Mindless Eating and other books is how we are presented with choices about eating so many times a day, often without realizing it -- like every time you walk through the kitchen and see cereal boxes out or some such. For me, part of that strategy has just been deciding "I don't snack." When I don't consistently and get into my good habits, I am not hungry other than at the times I am used to eating and don't really think about food at other times, whereas when I do allow myself to snack (graze during the day), I have a very different experience.

My perception is that in a lot of ways some of these "ways of eating" work similarly. For example, I used to be really weird about not eating "non natural" foods (I still am a little weird but not bordering on extreme, neurotic as I was at one time). At that time, it would simply not occur to me to eat a lot of things. I think self-identifying with a particular diet does a lot of the same thing--"oh, I am paleo, so I eat these things and not these," as well as turning it into a positive thing "I eat in this way that I like" vs. just about deprivation/not eating stuff (which can be one issue with calorie cutting -- it's just about eating less -- that can make it hard unless you are someone, like me, who enjoys the tracking and that becomes the positive change or if you make it into an overall program of eating in a particular way, like eating healthfully, which I also do).

I think to some extent the positive effects of keto are probably like the paleo ones, as well as for many people it being easier to NOT eat something rather than eat a bit of it, as you are less likely to think about it as often. But in addition, I think it is true that keto kills the appetite/desire to eat to some extent for at least a significant number of people who do it, so that also may be a way of dealing with the temptation always around us that I think can lead to a psychological desire to eat that some perceive as hunger.

Also, of course, if someone has issues with IR, the issue may be more physiological, but even then I don't think it's really just about carb percentage as IR is extremely uncommon in traditional societies.

Anyway, just thoughts and speculations, as I find all this interesting.

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"

It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.

The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.

Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.

You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?

For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.

For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.

Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.

Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.

I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).

After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.

I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.

Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.

Maybe we can all call a truce? If you want to slam lemon for this, maybe equally slam aqslyvester and Gale for claiming that people eating moderate to low fat are starving (I'm not, hunger is not my issue) or that we are unhealthy and on the verge of cancer and dementia? Fair is fair, after all.

I personally see what lemon does -- virtually everyone who claims to have been hungry pre low carb was eating a terrible diet not required by moderate to high carb - low veg, low fiber, often low protein. But even if that's not true (as I think is possible) it's clear it's only a subset for whom appetite is a problem or for whom carbs (even high fiber carbs) increase appetite. That, like the "I'm a carnivore" thing are things I've only run into on MFP.

I can absolutely agree with this. The idea that humans vary as to what type of diet works best is not illogical in the slightest. No, we're not all "special snowflakes" but satiety is a pretty subjective thing and what works for one may not work so well for another.

Cool -- and, yeah, for things like satiety we really are all different.

And for the record, my take on lemon's comment was the same as shell's above, which she's explained so well. We have people here sometimes claiming that "CICO didn't work" for them because in cutting calories they were so hungry. But of course if you are hungry you should experiment with different ways of eating -- sometimes it's a more moderate change (more vegetables, more protein), and sometimes a more dramatic one (LCHF). No one says "just cut calories and keep everything else exactly the same and don't think about things like satiety." In your case, I know you weren't saying that and I get why you may have seen the discovery of different types of diets as a paradigm shift or something, but I can also see someone just saying "more fat, hmm, that's really filling for me, less carbs, hmm, that also helps."

What always puzzles me is that so many traditional human diets are higher carb (and the blue zones are at least moderate carb) and yet I can't imagine there are a subset of people there always "starving" even when eating adequate calories. But who knows. I think a lot of the different ways of eating are ways of adjusting to food being always around/so available, though.

Traditional human diets might have been higher carb, but they were lacking in processed foods. It's that simple.

As others have said, bacon is a processed food. So is the smoked salmon I had this morning, and I find it quite filling (I think it's the protein, as fat usually doesn't do it for me).

That aside, I think highly processed foods are often less filling (at least for me) than less processed foods, because of things like fiber. But that's been my argument -- it's not about macro mix, but food choice.

I see others saying that even if they focus on less processed carbs like fruits and vegetables and legumes and oats and sweet potatoes, that they find having more than a small amount of carbs makes them insatiably hungry. I'm not questioning that -- I believe them. But I think there must be some intersection psychologically with the fact that foods are so available or something, as I doubt people in these traditional societies were hungry all the time.

I know for myself that I've basically not thought about food until meal time when I'm busy and away from food all day, even when I'm doing things that make my TDEE much higher than usual and even if I'm not actually eating all that much (thinking of a service trip I once took to Nicaragua, among other things).

Not sure what psychological factors would be at play... I was a stay at home mom when doing lower fat, higher fiber, and am still a stay at home mom while doing LCHF. Food is no more or less available for me now than it was then, but I am definitely more satiated eating LC. I'm more inclined to think there may be genetic differences between populations based on how the early ancestors evolved, and what diet they evolved on. For example - some racial and ethnic groups are more predisposed to being lactose intolerant. Doesn't it stand to reason that some groups would be more prone to insulin resistance? Just musing...

I think one issue for all of us in this environment is finding a way to deal with how easily available food is and the attraction to it for hedonic and other reasons. I think it's a lot harder to avoid overeating in a situation like being a SAH mom in the current world vs. in a traditional society where you really couldn't and people didn't just snack for fun or because you had a taste for something. I could be totally wrong, but I suspect that most people who struggle with hunger in this society wouldn't if they were under the constraints of a more traditional society and just didn't have the option of eating at non standard (for the society, whatever those were) or non communal times, even if the food they ate did not change.

This is just a theory of mine, though -- could be wrong.

Anyway, based on this, I think a lot of what we all are doing is coming up with a strategy to prevent overeating in this rather tempting situation. One thing Brian Wansink has written about in Mindless Eating and other books is how we are presented with choices about eating so many times a day, often without realizing it -- like every time you walk through the kitchen and see cereal boxes out or some such. For me, part of that strategy has just been deciding "I don't snack." When I don't consistently and get into my good habits, I am not hungry other than at the times I am used to eating and don't really think about food at other times, whereas when I do allow myself to snack (graze during the day), I have a very different experience.

My perception is that in a lot of ways some of these "ways of eating" work similarly. For example, I used to be really weird about not eating "non natural" foods (I still am a little weird but not bordering on extreme, neurotic as I was at one time). At that time, it would simply not occur to me to eat a lot of things. I think self-identifying with a particular diet does a lot of the same thing--"oh, I am paleo, so I eat these things and not these," as well as turning it into a positive thing "I eat in this way that I like" vs. just about deprivation/not eating stuff (which can be one issue with calorie cutting -- it's just about eating less -- that can make it hard unless you are someone, like me, who enjoys the tracking and that becomes the positive change or if you make it into an overall program of eating in a particular way, like eating healthfully, which I also do).

I think to some extent the positive effects of keto are probably like the paleo ones, as well as for many people it being easier to NOT eat something rather than eat a bit of it, as you are less likely to think about it as often. But in addition, I think it is true that keto kills the appetite/desire to eat to some extent for at least a significant number of people who do it, so that also may be a way of dealing with the temptation always around us that I think can lead to a psychological desire to eat that some perceive as hunger.

Also, of course, if someone has issues with IR, the issue may be more physiological, but even then I don't think it's really just about carb percentage as IR is extremely uncommon in traditional societies.

Anyway, just thoughts and speculations, as I find all this interesting.

I'm a stay at home mom and have access to all sorts of food, all the time, and it's really not an issue for me? I bought my daughter a donut this morning at the grocery store when I was there, but it didn't even cross my mind to get myself a donut because I hadn't factored it into my calorie plan for the day. And that's how I interact with food at home as well. Maybe I really am a weird freak snowflake

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"

It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.

The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.

Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.

You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?

For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.

For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.

Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.

Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.

I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).

After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.

I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.

Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.

Maybe we can all call a truce? If you want to slam lemon for this, maybe equally slam aqslyvester and Gale for claiming that people eating moderate to low fat are starving (I'm not, hunger is not my issue) or that we are unhealthy and on the verge of cancer and dementia? Fair is fair, after all.

I personally see what lemon does -- virtually everyone who claims to have been hungry pre low carb was eating a terrible diet not required by moderate to high carb - low veg, low fiber, often low protein. But even if that's not true (as I think is possible) it's clear it's only a subset for whom appetite is a problem or for whom carbs (even high fiber carbs) increase appetite. That, like the "I'm a carnivore" thing are things I've only run into on MFP.

I can absolutely agree with this. The idea that humans vary as to what type of diet works best is not illogical in the slightest. No, we're not all "special snowflakes" but satiety is a pretty subjective thing and what works for one may not work so well for another.

Cool -- and, yeah, for things like satiety we really are all different.

And for the record, my take on lemon's comment was the same as shell's above, which she's explained so well. We have people here sometimes claiming that "CICO didn't work" for them because in cutting calories they were so hungry. But of course if you are hungry you should experiment with different ways of eating -- sometimes it's a more moderate change (more vegetables, more protein), and sometimes a more dramatic one (LCHF). No one says "just cut calories and keep everything else exactly the same and don't think about things like satiety." In your case, I know you weren't saying that and I get why you may have seen the discovery of different types of diets as a paradigm shift or something, but I can also see someone just saying "more fat, hmm, that's really filling for me, less carbs, hmm, that also helps."

What always puzzles me is that so many traditional human diets are higher carb (and the blue zones are at least moderate carb) and yet I can't imagine there are a subset of people there always "starving" even when eating adequate calories. But who knows. I think a lot of the different ways of eating are ways of adjusting to food being always around/so available, though.

Traditional human diets might have been higher carb, but they were lacking in processed foods. It's that simple.

As others have said, bacon is a processed food. So is the smoked salmon I had this morning, and I find it quite filling (I think it's the protein, as fat usually doesn't do it for me).

That aside, I think highly processed foods are often less filling (at least for me) than less processed foods, because of things like fiber. But that's been my argument -- it's not about macro mix, but food choice.

I see others saying that even if they focus on less processed carbs like fruits and vegetables and legumes and oats and sweet potatoes, that they find having more than a small amount of carbs makes them insatiably hungry. I'm not questioning that -- I believe them. But I think there must be some intersection psychologically with the fact that foods are so available or something, as I doubt people in these traditional societies were hungry all the time.

I know for myself that I've basically not thought about food until meal time when I'm busy and away from food all day, even when I'm doing things that make my TDEE much higher than usual and even if I'm not actually eating all that much (thinking of a service trip I once took to Nicaragua, among other things).

Not sure what psychological factors would be at play... I was a stay at home mom when doing lower fat, higher fiber, and am still a stay at home mom while doing LCHF. Food is no more or less available for me now than it was then, but I am definitely more satiated eating LC. I'm more inclined to think there may be genetic differences between populations based on how the early ancestors evolved, and what diet they evolved on. For example - some racial and ethnic groups are more predisposed to being lactose intolerant. Doesn't it stand to reason that some groups would be more prone to insulin resistance? Just musing...

I think one issue for all of us in this environment is finding a way to deal with how easily available food is and the attraction to it for hedonic and other reasons. I think it's a lot harder to avoid overeating in a situation like being a SAH mom in the current world vs. in a traditional society where you really couldn't and people didn't just snack for fun or because you had a taste for something. I could be totally wrong, but I suspect that most people who struggle with hunger in this society wouldn't if they were under the constraints of a more traditional society and just didn't have the option of eating at non standard (for the society, whatever those were) or non communal times, even if the food they ate did not change.

This is just a theory of mine, though -- could be wrong.

Anyway, based on this, I think a lot of what we all are doing is coming up with a strategy to prevent overeating in this rather tempting situation. One thing Brian Wansink has written about in Mindless Eating and other books is how we are presented with choices about eating so many times a day, often without realizing it -- like every time you walk through the kitchen and see cereal boxes out or some such. For me, part of that strategy has just been deciding "I don't snack." When I don't consistently and get into my good habits, I am not hungry other than at the times I am used to eating and don't really think about food at other times, whereas when I do allow myself to snack (graze during the day), I have a very different experience.

My perception is that in a lot of ways some of these "ways of eating" work similarly. For example, I used to be really weird about not eating "non natural" foods (I still am a little weird but not bordering on extreme, neurotic as I was at one time). At that time, it would simply not occur to me to eat a lot of things. I think self-identifying with a particular diet does a lot of the same thing--"oh, I am paleo, so I eat these things and not these," as well as turning it into a positive thing "I eat in this way that I like" vs. just about deprivation/not eating stuff (which can be one issue with calorie cutting -- it's just about eating less -- that can make it hard unless you are someone, like me, who enjoys the tracking and that becomes the positive change or if you make it into an overall program of eating in a particular way, like eating healthfully, which I also do).

I think to some extent the positive effects of keto are probably like the paleo ones, as well as for many people it being easier to NOT eat something rather than eat a bit of it, as you are less likely to think about it as often. But in addition, I think it is true that keto kills the appetite/desire to eat to some extent for at least a significant number of people who do it, so that also may be a way of dealing with the temptation always around us that I think can lead to a psychological desire to eat that some perceive as hunger.

Also, of course, if someone has issues with IR, the issue may be more physiological, but even then I don't think it's really just about carb percentage as IR is extremely uncommon in traditional societies.

Anyway, just thoughts and speculations, as I find all this interesting.

I find it all very interesting too

I do think having more availability probably leads us to perceive hunger more often, and perhaps more acutely (out of sight, out of mind, right?). But within the constraints of the same level of food availability, I think the breakdown of the diet can have significant impact; at least it has in my case. Food is every bit as available to me as it was when I was eating lower fat - I keep plenty of easy LC compliant foods on hand (right now there are a dozen hard boiled eggs in the fridge, some leftover roast chicken, washed and chopped salad greens and veggies, frozen berries, and roasted cashews - if I was hungry I could easily put together a meal or snack); I've learned to navigate being out and about while keeping LC (convenience stores have jerky and nuts, fast food places offer side salads you can sub instead of fries and it's easy enough to ditch the bun from the sandwich, pizza places almost universally have chicken wings and salads, regular sit-down restaraunts are super easy - order a simply cooked meat/chicken/fish, get two veggie sides instead of a starch and veggie, done). My reduced appetite is most certainly physical, not psychological. Especially after three years of doing this; I understand that some people may eat less at first simply because they haven't adapted to a new way of eating, but I've defiantly adapted .

Having "rules" (I don't eat that, I do eat this) probably does make it easier to say no to certain things, or at least to keep those items occasional. Myself, I don't eat wheat as a general rule. So yes, it is easy to pass on the breadsticks or pasta. But I do indulge now and then. I think what is most striking to me is that, with my appetite reduced and eating a more satiating diet overall, I find those occasional indulgences don't trip me up anymore. In my low fat days I'd allow myself occasional "cheats" too, but I found it much harder to control myself when doing that; I'd end up eating more of the treat than I should have, feel bad/guilty, find that I would be up a couple lbs the next day, but it would take a week or longer to get back down, which was demoralizing. Now, on LCHF, I can have those occasional indulgences, exercise true moderation (feeling in control feels good!) and while I will still be up a lb or two the next day, I find it drops back off in a day or two (rather than a week or two), so I stay motivated.

Anywho... I'm rambling now. One last thing - I don't think IR is necessarily about carb percentage, so much as it is genetic (I have a strong family history of type 2 diabetes, so I'm fairly confident IR plays a role in how well I do on any given diet). In cultures with a high carb traditional diet, IR would pose a problem (overeating, never feeling full, getting overweight, etc). Those with IR in a high carb society may have ended up not being able to pass on their genes. Where as those with IR in a culture that eats lower carb would have done just fine. That's why I wonder if there are racial or ethnic variations wrt the rates of IR in different populations.

J72FIT wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

J72FIT wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

ReaderGirl3 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"

It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.

The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.

Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.

You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?

For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.

For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.

Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.

Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.

I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).

After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.

I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.

Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.

How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.

And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.

But i am glad you found what works for you.

I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.

I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.

Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).

At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.

Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.

It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.

I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet

Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.

Or even exercise...

Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.

Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.

The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...

Also fructose.

tlflag1620 wrote: »

Also fructose.

So avoid fruit?

tlflag1620 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

tlflag1620 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"

It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.

The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.

Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.

You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?

For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.

For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.

Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.

Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.

I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).

After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.

I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.

Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.

Maybe we can all call a truce? If you want to slam lemon for this, maybe equally slam aqslyvester and Gale for claiming that people eating moderate to low fat are starving (I'm not, hunger is not my issue) or that we are unhealthy and on the verge of cancer and dementia? Fair is fair, after all.

I personally see what lemon does -- virtually everyone who claims to have been hungry pre low carb was eating a terrible diet not required by moderate to high carb - low veg, low fiber, often low protein. But even if that's not true (as I think is possible) it's clear it's only a subset for whom appetite is a problem or for whom carbs (even high fiber carbs) increase appetite. That, like the "I'm a carnivore" thing are things I've only run into on MFP.

I can absolutely agree with this. The idea that humans vary as to what type of diet works best is not illogical in the slightest. No, we're not all "special snowflakes" but satiety is a pretty subjective thing and what works for one may not work so well for another.

Cool -- and, yeah, for things like satiety we really are all different.

And for the record, my take on lemon's comment was the same as shell's above, which she's explained so well. We have people here sometimes claiming that "CICO didn't work" for them because in cutting calories they were so hungry. But of course if you are hungry you should experiment with different ways of eating -- sometimes it's a more moderate change (more vegetables, more protein), and sometimes a more dramatic one (LCHF). No one says "just cut calories and keep everything else exactly the same and don't think about things like satiety." In your case, I know you weren't saying that and I get why you may have seen the discovery of different types of diets as a paradigm shift or something, but I can also see someone just saying "more fat, hmm, that's really filling for me, less carbs, hmm, that also helps."

What always puzzles me is that so many traditional human diets are higher carb (and the blue zones are at least moderate carb) and yet I can't imagine there are a subset of people there always "starving" even when eating adequate calories. But who knows. I think a lot of the different ways of eating are ways of adjusting to food being always around/so available, though.

Traditional human diets might have been higher carb, but they were lacking in processed foods. It's that simple.

As others have said, bacon is a processed food. So is the smoked salmon I had this morning, and I find it quite filling (I think it's the protein, as fat usually doesn't do it for me).

That aside, I think highly processed foods are often less filling (at least for me) than less processed foods, because of things like fiber. But that's been my argument -- it's not about macro mix, but food choice.

I see others saying that even if they focus on less processed carbs like fruits and vegetables and legumes and oats and sweet potatoes, that they find having more than a small amount of carbs makes them insatiably hungry. I'm not questioning that -- I believe them. But I think there must be some intersection psychologically with the fact that foods are so available or something, as I doubt people in these traditional societies were hungry all the time.

I know for myself that I've basically not thought about food until meal time when I'm busy and away from food all day, even when I'm doing things that make my TDEE much higher than usual and even if I'm not actually eating all that much (thinking of a service trip I once took to Nicaragua, among other things).

Not sure what psychological factors would be at play... I was a stay at home mom when doing lower fat, higher fiber, and am still a stay at home mom while doing LCHF. Food is no more or less available for me now than it was then, but I am definitely more satiated eating LC. I'm more inclined to think there may be genetic differences between populations based on how the early ancestors evolved, and what diet they evolved on. For example - some racial and ethnic groups are more predisposed to being lactose intolerant. Doesn't it stand to reason that some groups would be more prone to insulin resistance? Just musing...

I think one issue for all of us in this environment is finding a way to deal with how easily available food is and the attraction to it for hedonic and other reasons. I think it's a lot harder to avoid overeating in a situation like being a SAH mom in the current world vs. in a traditional society where you really couldn't and people didn't just snack for fun or because you had a taste for something. I could be totally wrong, but I suspect that most people who struggle with hunger in this society wouldn't if they were under the constraints of a more traditional society and just didn't have the option of eating at non standard (for the society, whatever those were) or non communal times, even if the food they ate did not change.

This is just a theory of mine, though -- could be wrong.

Anyway, based on this, I think a lot of what we all are doing is coming up with a strategy to prevent overeating in this rather tempting situation. One thing Brian Wansink has written about in Mindless Eating and other books is how we are presented with choices about eating so many times a day, often without realizing it -- like every time you walk through the kitchen and see cereal boxes out or some such. For me, part of that strategy has just been deciding "I don't snack." When I don't consistently and get into my good habits, I am not hungry other than at the times I am used to eating and don't really think about food at other times, whereas when I do allow myself to snack (graze during the day), I have a very different experience.

My perception is that in a lot of ways some of these "ways of eating" work similarly. For example, I used to be really weird about not eating "non natural" foods (I still am a little weird but not bordering on extreme, neurotic as I was at one time). At that time, it would simply not occur to me to eat a lot of things. I think self-identifying with a particular diet does a lot of the same thing--"oh, I am paleo, so I eat these things and not these," as well as turning it into a positive thing "I eat in this way that I like" vs. just about deprivation/not eating stuff (which can be one issue with calorie cutting -- it's just about eating less -- that can make it hard unless you are someone, like me, who enjoys the tracking and that becomes the positive change or if you make it into an overall program of eating in a particular way, like eating healthfully, which I also do).

I think to some extent the positive effects of keto are probably like the paleo ones, as well as for many people it being easier to NOT eat something rather than eat a bit of it, as you are less likely to think about it as often. But in addition, I think it is true that keto kills the appetite/desire to eat to some extent for at least a significant number of people who do it, so that also may be a way of dealing with the temptation always around us that I think can lead to a psychological desire to eat that some perceive as hunger.

Also, of course, if someone has issues with IR, the issue may be more physiological, but even then I don't think it's really just about carb percentage as IR is extremely uncommon in traditional societies.

Anyway, just thoughts and speculations, as I find all this interesting.

I find it all very interesting too

I do think having more availability probably leads us to perceive hunger more often, and perhaps more acutely (out of sight, out of mind, right?). But within the constraints of the same level of food availability, I think the breakdown of the diet can have significant impact; at least it has in my case. Food is every bit as available to me as it was when I was eating lower fat - I keep plenty of easy LC compliant foods on hand (right now there are a dozen hard boiled eggs in the fridge, some leftover roast chicken, washed and chopped salad greens and veggies, frozen berries, and roasted cashews - if I was hungry I could easily put together a meal or snack); I've learned to navigate being out and about while keeping LC (convenience stores have jerky and nuts, fast food places offer side salads you can sub instead of fries and it's easy enough to ditch the bun from the sandwich, pizza places almost universally have chicken wings and salads, regular sit-down restaraunts are super easy - order a simply cooked meat/chicken/fish, get two veggie sides instead of a starch and veggie, done). My reduced appetite is most certainly physical, not psychological. Especially after three years of doing this; I understand that some people may eat less at first simply because they haven't adapted to a new way of eating, but I've defiantly adapted .

Having "rules" (I don't eat that, I do eat this) probably does make it easier to say no to certain things, or at least to keep those items occasional. Myself, I don't eat wheat as a general rule. So yes, it is easy to pass on the breadsticks or pasta. But I do indulge now and then. I think what is most striking to me is that, with my appetite reduced and eating a more satiating diet overall, I find those occasional indulgences don't trip me up anymore. In my low fat days I'd allow myself occasional "cheats" too, but I found it much harder to control myself when doing that; I'd end up eating more of the treat than I should have, feel bad/guilty, find that I would be up a couple lbs the next day, but it would take a week or longer to get back down, which was demoralizing. Now, on LCHF, I can have those occasional indulgences, exercise true moderation (feeling in control feels good!) and while I will still be up a lb or two the next day, I find it drops back off in a day or two (rather than a week or two), so I stay motivated.

Anywho... I'm rambling now. One last thing - I don't think IR is necessarily about carb percentage, so much as it is genetic (I have a strong family history of type 2 diabetes, so I'm fairly confident IR plays a role in how well I do on any given diet). In cultures with a high carb traditional diet, IR would pose a problem (overeating, never feeling full, getting overweight, etc). Those with IR in a high carb society may have ended up not being able to pass on their genes. Where as those with IR in a culture that eats lower carb would have done just fine. That's why I wonder if there are racial or ethnic variations wrt the rates of IR in different populations.

Did you see that sugar film? Horrifying what high carb processed foods have done to indigenous people in Australia. It's a similar story in the United States. Rates of obesity related diseases are very high in the indigenous populations.