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Is the Insulin Theory of Obesity Over?
Replies
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stevencloser wrote: »@Wetcoaster is the latest Hall study published, or are these biased commentators just repeating their biased view ?
They are various people reporting on the results.
they have access to the results, or are part of a PR campaign ?
The study has been available since monday.
Where is it published ?
I don't think its publicly released. Its possible that people are either privied to advanced copies or they are making assessments based on the webchat video. Either way, i dont put stake in the reviews but rather KHs discussion on the parameters and results of the study.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »@Wetcoaster is the latest Hall study published, or are these biased commentators just repeating their biased view ?
They are various people reporting on the results.
they have access to the results, or are part of a PR campaign ?
The study has been available since monday.
Where is it published ?
I don't think its publicly released. Its possible that people are either privied to advanced copies or they are making assessments based on the webchat video. Either way, i dont put stake in the reviews but rather KHs discussion on the parameters and results of the study.
Here's the published (poster) abstract :-
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »These are high quality studies designed to test a hypothesis and they do that very well. I think any reasonable person would conclude the same thing Hall has. Low carb diets to not work by providing a metabolic advantage, everything to date indicates they work by a spontaneous reduction in appetite.
I spoke too soon - a very reasonable person does not agree with Hall's conclusion. I'm definitely looking forward to what people have to say once the full paper is published.
Contradictions and Cognitive Dissonance: The (Kevin) Hall Effect1 -
I wonder if the twisting of the data results by Kevin Hall had anything to do with Dr. Peter Attia leaving the group first of 2016? Over time I have found Dr. Attia to be a non BS type of guy.0
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Sort of.... He seemed to stress some things in the interview that was not the main result of the the experiment, the main result being that energy expenditure (CO) increases following an isocaloric ketogenic diet in overweight and obese men.
I'm looking forward to seeing the full paper so I can get a clearer picture of what he did and did not do, and what all of his results are.0 -
Sorry, but for most people eating nothing but fruits and vegetables with a little lean meat thrown in is not sustainable over the long haul. I believe most people on MFP are not here for a "diet", meaning to lose weight then go back to their way of eating and regain the weight plus more, but to find a way of eating that will last a lifetime and help maintain their goal weight once it has been reached. It seems to me that many of these studies, whether it is low-carb, low-fat, or whatever tend to be grabbed and misunderstood by the public and become a marketing tool. Case in point, the current gluten free craze. There are people who have a definite medical need to remove gluten from their diet but for most it is not necessary. When I see a "gluten-free" label on things like meat and milk I have to laugh.4
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For me personally? It's been over since 2010. http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10348650/cico-still-skeptical-come-inside-for-a-meticulous-log-that-proves-it/p15
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Pretty good discussion going on on Brad's Facebook pade. Lyle McDonald and Alan Agaron are in on it.
https://www.facebook.com/brad.schoenfeld.cscs?fref=ts
"Brad Schoenfeld with Alan Aragon and James Krieger.
21 hrs ago
So now we have keto proponents spinning the results of the recent Taubes-funded study, saying that: "The increased energy expenditure of about 100 calories per day – in this study – would match the energy burned during 30 minutes of moderate exercise three times a week."
One little problem: The increase in EE persisted for about 10 days and then rapidly trailed off to almost zero after ~3 weeks. Oops! Apparently confirmation bias runs strong.
At this point all we can go on is the abstract and the explanation of the findings by the lead author, Kevin Hall, which to the dismay of some appear to refute the insulin hypothesis of weight loss. Let's wait for the study to be published before drawing conclusions, and certainly before extrapolating implications that are not consistent with available data."7 -
Sort of.... He seemed to stress some things in the interview that was not the main result of the the experiment, the main result being that energy expenditure (CO) increases following an isocaloric ketogenic diet in overweight and obese men.
I'm looking forward to seeing the full paper so I can get a clearer picture of what he did and did not do, and what all of his results are.
As wetcoaster post and as kh mentioned in his video, its a short term increase in EE. I suspect its due to a change in energy systems. At the same point though, weight loss didnt occur during that period and slowly caught up to the baseline data.
But i do agree it will be interesting to see the full data.1 -
I'm just going to leave this right here.
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2016/05/06/contradictions-and-cognitive-dissonance-the-kevin-hall-effect/
And also point out the last line of Kevin Hall's abstract:
Therefore, an isocaloric ketogenic diet was associated with increased energy expenditure of ~100 kcal/d.
Isocaloric means same amount of calories, so shouldn't energy expenditure be the same, Kevin? Did you forget about CICO, Kevin? tsk tsk.0 -
aqsylvester wrote: »I'm just going to leave this right here.
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2016/05/06/contradictions-and-cognitive-dissonance-the-kevin-hall-effect/
And also point out the last line of Kevin Hall's abstract:
Therefore, an isocaloric ketogenic diet was associated with increased energy expenditure of ~100 kcal/d.
Isocaloric means same amount of calories, so shouldn't energy expenditure be the same, Kevin? Did you forget about CICO, Kevin? tsk tsk.
"One little problem: The increase in EE persisted for about 10 days and then rapidly trailed off to almost zero after ~3 weeks."
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aqsylvester wrote: »I'm just going to leave this right here.
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2016/05/06/contradictions-and-cognitive-dissonance-the-kevin-hall-effect/
And also point out the last line of Kevin Hall's abstract:
Therefore, an isocaloric ketogenic diet was associated with increased energy expenditure of ~100 kcal/d.
Isocaloric means same amount of calories, so shouldn't energy expenditure be the same, Kevin? Did you forget about CICO, Kevin? tsk tsk.
"One little problem: The increase in EE persisted for about 10 days and then rapidly trailed off to almost zero after ~3 weeks."
I suspect the increase in EE was due to the changing of energy system.
It should also be pointed out that during that time of increase EE, no weight loss occurred, according to the video.7 -
aqsylvester wrote: »I'm just going to leave this right here.
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2016/05/06/contradictions-and-cognitive-dissonance-the-kevin-hall-effect/
And also point out the last line of Kevin Hall's abstract:
Therefore, an isocaloric ketogenic diet was associated with increased energy expenditure of ~100 kcal/d.
Isocaloric means same amount of calories, so shouldn't energy expenditure be the same, Kevin? Did you forget about CICO, Kevin? tsk tsk.
"One little problem: The increase in EE persisted for about 10 days and then rapidly trailed off to almost zero after ~3 weeks."
I suspect the increase in EE was due to the changing of energy system.
It should also be pointed out that during that time of increase EE, no weight loss occurred, according to the video.
Exactly. And with that change a brief adaptation occurred. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry, CICO still governs...3 -
aqsylvester wrote: »I'm just going to leave this right here.
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2016/05/06/contradictions-and-cognitive-dissonance-the-kevin-hall-effect/
And also point out the last line of Kevin Hall's abstract:
Therefore, an isocaloric ketogenic diet was associated with increased energy expenditure of ~100 kcal/d.
Isocaloric means same amount of calories, so shouldn't energy expenditure be the same, Kevin? Did you forget about CICO, Kevin? tsk tsk.
"One little problem: The increase in EE persisted for about 10 days and then rapidly trailed off to almost zero after ~3 weeks."
I suspect the increase in EE was due to the changing of energy system.
It should also be pointed out that during that time of increase EE, no weight loss occurred, according to the video.
Exactly. And with that change a brief adaptation occurred. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry, CICO still governs...
And cognitive dissonance will forever prevail
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aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »I'm just going to leave this right here.
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2016/05/06/contradictions-and-cognitive-dissonance-the-kevin-hall-effect/
And also point out the last line of Kevin Hall's abstract:
Therefore, an isocaloric ketogenic diet was associated with increased energy expenditure of ~100 kcal/d.
Isocaloric means same amount of calories, so shouldn't energy expenditure be the same, Kevin? Did you forget about CICO, Kevin? tsk tsk.
"One little problem: The increase in EE persisted for about 10 days and then rapidly trailed off to almost zero after ~3 weeks."
I suspect the increase in EE was due to the changing of energy system.
It should also be pointed out that during that time of increase EE, no weight loss occurred, according to the video.
Exactly. And with that change a brief adaptation occurred. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry, CICO still governs...
And cognitive dissonance will forever prevail
That's not what cognitive dissonance is.1 -
aqsylvester wrote: »I'm just going to leave this right here.
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2016/05/06/contradictions-and-cognitive-dissonance-the-kevin-hall-effect/
And also point out the last line of Kevin Hall's abstract:
Therefore, an isocaloric ketogenic diet was associated with increased energy expenditure of ~100 kcal/d.
Isocaloric means same amount of calories, so shouldn't energy expenditure be the same, Kevin? Did you forget about CICO, Kevin? tsk tsk.
"One little problem: The increase in EE persisted for about 10 days and then rapidly trailed off to almost zero after ~3 weeks."
I suspect the increase in EE was due to the changing of energy system.
It should also be pointed out that during that time of increase EE, no weight loss occurred, according to the video.
Exactly. And with that change a brief adaptation occurred. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry, CICO still governs...
And cognitive dissonance will forever prevail
Did you watch the KH video or just read the pro low carb link?4 -
aqsylvester wrote: »I'm just going to leave this right here.
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2016/05/06/contradictions-and-cognitive-dissonance-the-kevin-hall-effect/
And also point out the last line of Kevin Hall's abstract:
Therefore, an isocaloric ketogenic diet was associated with increased energy expenditure of ~100 kcal/d.
Isocaloric means same amount of calories, so shouldn't energy expenditure be the same, Kevin? Did you forget about CICO, Kevin? tsk tsk.
"One little problem: The increase in EE persisted for about 10 days and then rapidly trailed off to almost zero after ~3 weeks."
I suspect the increase in EE was due to the changing of energy system.
It should also be pointed out that during that time of increase EE, no weight loss occurred, according to the video.
Exactly. And with that change a brief adaptation occurred. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry, CICO still governs...
And cognitive dissonance will forever prevail
Why are you refusing to acknowledge that the EE lasted for only 10 days and trailed off to zero in 3 weeks?4 -
aqsylvester wrote: »I'm just going to leave this right here.
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2016/05/06/contradictions-and-cognitive-dissonance-the-kevin-hall-effect/
And also point out the last line of Kevin Hall's abstract:
Therefore, an isocaloric ketogenic diet was associated with increased energy expenditure of ~100 kcal/d.
Isocaloric means same amount of calories, so shouldn't energy expenditure be the same, Kevin? Did you forget about CICO, Kevin? tsk tsk.
"One little problem: The increase in EE persisted for about 10 days and then rapidly trailed off to almost zero after ~3 weeks."
I suspect the increase in EE was due to the changing of energy system.
It should also be pointed out that during that time of increase EE, no weight loss occurred, according to the video.
Exactly. And with that change a brief adaptation occurred. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry, CICO still governs...
And cognitive dissonance will forever prevail
How so?
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aqsylvester wrote: »I'm just going to leave this right here.
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2016/05/06/contradictions-and-cognitive-dissonance-the-kevin-hall-effect/
And also point out the last line of Kevin Hall's abstract:
Therefore, an isocaloric ketogenic diet was associated with increased energy expenditure of ~100 kcal/d.
Isocaloric means same amount of calories, so shouldn't energy expenditure be the same, Kevin? Did you forget about CICO, Kevin? tsk tsk.
"One little problem: The increase in EE persisted for about 10 days and then rapidly trailed off to almost zero after ~3 weeks."
I suspect the increase in EE was due to the changing of energy system.
It should also be pointed out that during that time of increase EE, no weight loss occurred, according to the video.
Exactly. And with that change a brief adaptation occurred. Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry, CICO still governs...
And cognitive dissonance will forever prevail
How so?
Still waiting...
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N of 17 doesn't convince me of anything. How were these groups monitored? What sampling techniques were employed? Age stratification? Genetic background? Without methodology and confounding variables explained, I take this with a grain of salt.0
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rkhazard432 wrote: »N of 17 doesn't convince me of anything. How were these groups monitored? What sampling techniques were employed? Age stratification? Genetic background? Without methodology and confounding variables explained, I take this with a grain of salt.
Did you not read the paper? It was a metabolic ward study. Its probably the only ward study that held protein and calories constant.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10436946/are-all-calories-equal-part-2-kevins-halls-new-study#latest1 -
It SHOULD be dead, but sadly some of the people driving the movement aren't going to change their mind despite evidence opposing them, and Taubes even admitted to not changing his mind despite this. (Debate vs Aragon, UK)5
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It SHOULD be dead, but sadly some of the people driving the movement aren't going to change their mind despite evidence opposing them, and Taubes even admitted to not changing his mind despite this. (Debate vs Aragon, UK)
How am i not shocked. A non scientists is refusing to recognize science. Never saw that coming.7 -
It SHOULD be dead, but sadly some of the people driving the movement aren't going to change their mind despite evidence opposing them, and Taubes even admitted to not changing his mind despite this. (Debate vs Aragon, UK)
How am i not shocked. A non scientists is refusing to recognize science. Never saw that coming.
It's mind boggling.
In fairness to Taubes, I DO think he is remarkably intelligent. I just think he's also remarkably wrong. The video of him actually saying this is up on Alan's wall on facebook if you scroll down a bit
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It SHOULD be dead, but sadly some of the people driving the movement aren't going to change their mind despite evidence opposing them, and Taubes even admitted to not changing his mind despite this. (Debate vs Aragon, UK)
How am i not shocked. A non scientists is refusing to recognize science. Never saw that coming.
It's mind boggling.
In fairness to Taubes, I DO think he is remarkably intelligent. I just think he's also remarkably wrong. The video of him actually saying this is up on Alan's wall on facebook if you scroll down a bit
Demagogues have to be intelligent
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On a clinical level, I'm sure Insulin cannot be ignored as a factor in diabetes, as every patient I have encountered gains weight when administered insulin. And not an insignificant amount of weight either.
However our pancreas' ability to secrete insulin (and our cells ability to receive signals from insulin) is essential to life, so unilaterally demonizing insulin seems inappropriate.
From a practical standpoint, I admit that I do not really care what is truly happening with the exact details at the cellular level along with the details of every single metabolic side process and all the results out of the isolated metabolic ward studies in the literature, but rather care more about real world results in real world patients.
Certain lifestyle strategies seem to work almost without fail with respect to fighting obesity and diabetes. That's all that matters to me and that's all that seems to matter to patients.1
This discussion has been closed.
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