does anyone else think alcoholics anonymous is a joke?
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AA is mostly about whining and trying to "one-up" one another with stories about who used to drink more. Oh, and lots and lots of smoking. The main benefit I can see is finding a group of people who aren't going to invite you out for a drink; except that almost all of them "relapse" over and over again.3
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Cameron_1969 wrote: »I agree with the OP. . to a point. AA is very helpful to a very specific personality type. However, it's adherents push it as the one and only solution to addiction for everybody. It isn't and it actually has the opposite effect on MANY!. . Like the OP the idea of powerlessness and the notion that you WILL fail that were drilled into my head simply fed the 'beast' within. I swear I went out and drank after EVERY AA meeting. .It was utterly depressing and damaging to my self-control.
I see in this thread the AA talk. .They love to tell any former addict that they either aren't really an addict or they aren't really a former addict ant that they WILL FAIL!. . attack attack attack . . It's impossible for them to believe that someone can kick it without AA so they ridicule and dismiss.
Um.
No.
I have to object to this contention, seriously.
Nothing could be further from the truth. AA actually has a very strong stance against aggressive proselytizing. The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous simply states: "If you have decided you want what we have...."
That's not "pushing." That is up to you. Take it or leave it.
My own understanding of addiction and alcoholism treatment is that there are other ways. There's the medical model, for instance. I expect it works for many. I assume many people can overcome or outgrow an addiction by themselves. But the truth of the matter is, AA does not miraculously cure anyone, and neither do any of those other approaches. Success rates for drug/alcohol treatment approaches are dismally low.
You can be mad about it if you want....But, it's not like, if you try AA, you are missing out on the magic pill you could get somewhere else.2 -
Cameron_1969 wrote: »I agree with the OP. . to a point. AA is very helpful to a very specific personality type. However, it's adherents push it as the one and only solution to addiction for everybody. It isn't and it actually has the opposite effect on MANY!. . Like the OP the idea of powerlessness and the notion that you WILL fail that were drilled into my head simply fed the 'beast' within. I swear I went out and drank after EVERY AA meeting. .It was utterly depressing and damaging to my self-control.
I see in this thread the AA talk. .They love to tell any former addict that they either aren't really an addict or they aren't really a former addict ant that they WILL FAIL!. . attack attack attack . . It's impossible for them to believe that someone can kick it without AA so they ridicule and dismiss.
Um.
No.
I have to object to this contention, seriously.
Nothing could be further from the truth. AA actually has a very strong stance against aggressive proselytizing. The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous simply states: "If you have decided you want what we have...."
That's not "pushing." That is up to you. Take it or leave it.
My own understanding of addiction and alcoholism treatment is that there are other ways. There's the medical model, for instance. I expect it works for many. I assume many people can overcome or outgrow an addiction by themselves. But the truth of the matter is, AA does not miraculously cure anyone, and neither do any of those other approaches. Success rates for drug/alcohol treatment approaches are dismally low.
You can be mad about it if you want....But, it's not like, if you try AA, you are missing out on the magic pill you could get somewhere else.
Yes they are low. What people forget is they fail to account for the people who get better spontaneously without treatment which is what happens very often0 -
derek1237654 wrote: »Wicked_Seraph wrote: »derek1237654 wrote: »Wicked_Seraph wrote: »I don't even know where to begin, OP.
Your post is so incredibly rude and disrespectful to those who have struggled with addiction and used AA to improve their lives. Some people's rock bottom might be lower than yours, and they might absolutely feel powerless. My father's rock bottom might not have been your *kitten* rock bottom, but that gives you NO right to dismiss his struggles and his choice to do right by his family.
You can argue the success rate, and I'm sure there ARE better programs, but the point of the matter is that your employer is being gracious enough to provide a means for you to improve your life rather than simply firing you. Stop being such an *kitten* about it - and yes, I'm an atheist, so I know that the religious talk probably won't jive with you. Get over it. And so help me, stop using the "r" word. Disagreeing with something or thinking it's foolish doesn't make it okay to equate bad/stupid to those with intellectual disabilities.
I'm not normally this angry but your post is by far one of the rudest and most petulantly childish things I've ever read.
If you read my post you would see that i meant drinking is the "r" word to me or for me....i didnt call anyone the r word. I think the PROGRAM is rubbish and thats not really my opinion thats factual. Anything with a success rate as low as AAs could hardly be called a success.
Praying to a supposed god doesnt cure or treat disease any more than faith in a group or doorknob does.
I should excercise my right to shut up because obviously i am just a moron who posts stuff just to enrage people
What you don't seem to understand is that we take issue with you using the word, period, regardless of what you're describing. Those with intellectual disabilities do not deserve to be used as a descriptor.
Again - you're welcome to think what you like on the program. I'm 0% interested in discussing its success rate as someone who has never attended AA/NA, but you have no right to essentially *kitten* on those who have relied on it. Looking down on religious folk for using religion to help them is cruel. I'm an atheist, too, but I'm not gonna look down on a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jewish person, or anyone else if their faith is what helps them get through one of the most difficult times in their life.
I do not look down on them i feel sorry for them as they were obviously brainwashed when they were young. Its a rampant societal problem. I wont believe in god simply because i dont believe in things without evidence or a reasonable scientific basis. To do any less is to sell yourself short of reality as it currently is understood. I am glad it comforts people but is it really okay to take comfort in an imaginary friend like a child would? Its tantamount to the same thing.
Just because something cannot be proven 100% wrong does not give anyone the right to believe it true in the absence of a single shred of proof.
I live life by what is known not what is unknown. Anything less is just fanciful and wishful thinking. I could go on but no one cares anyways.....just drink the kool aid and hope for the best.
Oh my word, are you for real? I'm an atheist but I have friends of numerous faiths who strongly believe they have witnessed the hand of their god in their lives, they have many "shreds of proof". They take great comfort from their faith and it has helped them through terrible times. How dare you say that they are "brainwashed" or "selling themselves short"? Each one is a clever person, way more educated than me. If you only believe in what you can see, then fair enough, but if you remember in the old days, some of the most educated and clever scientific people thought the world was flat... Can you see an individual atom with the naked eye...? You can't see the wind, but you see and feel what it does, many feel god is the same...
If someone takes comfort from their god, their teddy bear, their imaginary friend, who are you to mock? Is the comfort less real, less helpful if someone believes, just because YOU don't?3 -
sunn_lighter wrote: »Cameron_1969 wrote: »I agree with the OP. . to a point. AA is very helpful to a very specific personality type. However, it's adherents push it as the one and only solution to addiction for everybody. It isn't and it actually has the opposite effect on MANY!. . Like the OP the idea of powerlessness and the notion that you WILL fail that were drilled into my head simply fed the 'beast' within. I swear I went out and drank after EVERY AA meeting. .It was utterly depressing and damaging to my self-control.
I see in this thread the AA talk. .They love to tell any former addict that they either aren't really an addict or they aren't really a former addict ant that they WILL FAIL!. . attack attack attack . . It's impossible for them to believe that someone can kick it without AA so they ridicule and dismiss.
Um.
No.
I have to object to this contention, seriously.
Nothing could be further from the truth. AA actually has a very strong stance against aggressive proselytizing. The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous simply states: "If you have decided you want what we have...."
That's not "pushing." That is up to you. Take it or leave it.
My own understanding of addiction and alcoholism treatment is that there are other ways. There's the medical model, for instance. I expect it works for many. I assume many people can overcome or outgrow an addiction by themselves. But the truth of the matter is, AA does not miraculously cure anyone, and neither do any of those other approaches. Success rates for drug/alcohol treatment approaches are dismally low.
You can be mad about it if you want....But, it's not like, if you try AA, you are missing out on the magic pill you could get somewhere else.
http://www.radiolab.org/story/addiction/
I get it. Someday.......Maybe? But not at present.
I am actually quite familiar with the medical approaches to addiction treatment. And I find it somewhat disturbing and depressing. There is no cure in it -- they talk about "mitigating the damage" in one's life that addiction causes -- and no liberation in it.
AA talks about "dry drunks" and I tend to think it is true. If you don't have a spiritual/psychological change along with sobering up, you're going to be the same person who needed drugs/alcohol but without drugs/alcohol, and that is going to be a very miserable person.
No pill is going to change your essential psychological make-up -- No pill I would want to take, that is.0 -
derek1237654 wrote: »Wicked_Seraph wrote: »derek1237654 wrote: »Wicked_Seraph wrote: »I don't even know where to begin, OP.
Your post is so incredibly rude and disrespectful to those who have struggled with addiction and used AA to improve their lives. Some people's rock bottom might be lower than yours, and they might absolutely feel powerless. My father's rock bottom might not have been your *kitten* rock bottom, but that gives you NO right to dismiss his struggles and his choice to do right by his family.
You can argue the success rate, and I'm sure there ARE better programs, but the point of the matter is that your employer is being gracious enough to provide a means for you to improve your life rather than simply firing you. Stop being such an *kitten* about it - and yes, I'm an atheist, so I know that the religious talk probably won't jive with you. Get over it. And so help me, stop using the "r" word. Disagreeing with something or thinking it's foolish doesn't make it okay to equate bad/stupid to those with intellectual disabilities.
I'm not normally this angry but your post is by far one of the rudest and most petulantly childish things I've ever read.
If you read my post you would see that i meant drinking is the "r" word to me or for me....i didnt call anyone the r word. I think the PROGRAM is rubbish and thats not really my opinion thats factual. Anything with a success rate as low as AAs could hardly be called a success.
Praying to a supposed god doesnt cure or treat disease any more than faith in a group or doorknob does.
I should excercise my right to shut up because obviously i am just a moron who posts stuff just to enrage people
What you don't seem to understand is that we take issue with you using the word, period, regardless of what you're describing. Those with intellectual disabilities do not deserve to be used as a descriptor.
Again - you're welcome to think what you like on the program. I'm 0% interested in discussing its success rate as someone who has never attended AA/NA, but you have no right to essentially *kitten* on those who have relied on it. Looking down on religious folk for using religion to help them is cruel. I'm an atheist, too, but I'm not gonna look down on a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jewish person, or anyone else if their faith is what helps them get through one of the most difficult times in their life.
I do not look down on them i feel sorry for them as they were obviously brainwashed when they were young. Its a rampant societal problem. I wont believe in god simply because i dont believe in things without evidence or a reasonable scientific basis. To do any less is to sell yourself short of reality as it currently is understood. I am glad it comforts people but is it really okay to take comfort in an imaginary friend like a child would? Its tantamount to the same thing.
Just because something cannot be proven 100% wrong does not give anyone the right to believe it true in the absence of a single shred of proof.
I live life by what is known not what is unknown. Anything less is just fanciful and wishful thinking. I could go on but no one cares anyways.....just drink the kool aid and hope for the best.
Oh my word, are you for real? I'm an atheist but I have friends of numerous faiths who strongly believe they have witnessed the hand of their god in their lives, they have many "shreds of proof". They take great comfort from their faith and it has helped them through terrible times. How dare you say that they are "brainwashed" or "selling themselves short"? Each one is a clever person, way more educated than me. If you only believe in what you can see, then fair enough, but if you remember in the old days, some of the most educated and clever scientific people thought the world was flat... Can you see an individual atom with the naked eye...? You can't see the wind, but you see and feel what it does, many feel god is the same...
If someone takes comfort from their god, their teddy bear, their imaginary friend, who are you to mock? Is the comfort less real, less helpful if someone believes, just because YOU don't?
Again i dont have to say anything else because the likes of Hitchens etc expose these beliefs for what they are.0 -
There is just so much misinformation here, mostly about what "AA" and "the program" actually are, and the huge difference between that and individual groups calling themselves AA. I would like to offer in here the results I've found in my 22-year-long (so far) experiment, and I probably will at some point, but right now, having just finished reading this thread, I need to decompress, meditate a little, and get back to a place of objectivity. Because right now I just want to tear a few new A-holes around here, but I would be the one to suffer for that, as my own extensive research has proven.0
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BecomingBane wrote: »Alcoholism is often described as a lifelong disease. Never having been an alcoholic, I wouldn't know, but those that I know who are agree. I know that it's the same way for me regarding smoking... I smoked for 10+years, been free for 3 years now, and even so much as 1 cigarette and I wouldn't be able to stop again without intervention and assistance.
long story short, for some it's the lifelong commitment that is needed, in my case, to give me a reason not to smoke and the willpower to abstain when challenged by that particular vice. my recovering alcoholic friends describe it exactly the same way.
This has been my experience with quitting smoking as well. I'm not cocky enough to say that I'm 'cured' - I know better. I know that, after 6 years smoke free, if someone were to walk in here right now and offer me one, I'd most likely take it.
But it's the knowledge and admission of my vulnerability that keeps me from getting complacent. So the honesty about my continued weakness is what helps keep me strong.1 -
Hey OP! Apparently there was a mix up. This is MFP's zany chit chat rubber room.
Apparently you meant to go grind an ax at this other site!
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/christopher-hitchens.136946/
Lol i will check it out0 -
derek1237654 wrote: »Wicked_Seraph wrote: »derek1237654 wrote: »Wicked_Seraph wrote: »I don't even know where to begin, OP.
Your post is so incredibly rude and disrespectful to those who have struggled with addiction and used AA to improve their lives. Some people's rock bottom might be lower than yours, and they might absolutely feel powerless. My father's rock bottom might not have been your *kitten* rock bottom, but that gives you NO right to dismiss his struggles and his choice to do right by his family.
You can argue the success rate, and I'm sure there ARE better programs, but the point of the matter is that your employer is being gracious enough to provide a means for you to improve your life rather than simply firing you. Stop being such an *kitten* about it - and yes, I'm an atheist, so I know that the religious talk probably won't jive with you. Get over it. And so help me, stop using the "r" word. Disagreeing with something or thinking it's foolish doesn't make it okay to equate bad/stupid to those with intellectual disabilities.
I'm not normally this angry but your post is by far one of the rudest and most petulantly childish things I've ever read.
If you read my post you would see that i meant drinking is the "r" word to me or for me....i didnt call anyone the r word. I think the PROGRAM is rubbish and thats not really my opinion thats factual. Anything with a success rate as low as AAs could hardly be called a success.
Praying to a supposed god doesnt cure or treat disease any more than faith in a group or doorknob does.
I should excercise my right to shut up because obviously i am just a moron who posts stuff just to enrage people
What you don't seem to understand is that we take issue with you using the word, period, regardless of what you're describing. Those with intellectual disabilities do not deserve to be used as a descriptor.
Again - you're welcome to think what you like on the program. I'm 0% interested in discussing its success rate as someone who has never attended AA/NA, but you have no right to essentially *kitten* on those who have relied on it. Looking down on religious folk for using religion to help them is cruel. I'm an atheist, too, but I'm not gonna look down on a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jewish person, or anyone else if their faith is what helps them get through one of the most difficult times in their life.
I do not look down on them i feel sorry for them as they were obviously brainwashed when they were young. Its a rampant societal problem. I wont believe in god simply because i dont believe in things without evidence or a reasonable scientific basis. To do any less is to sell yourself short of reality as it currently is understood. I am glad it comforts people but is it really okay to take comfort in an imaginary friend like a child would? Its tantamount to the same thing.
Just because something cannot be proven 100% wrong does not give anyone the right to believe it true in the absence of a single shred of proof.
I live life by what is known not what is unknown. Anything less is just fanciful and wishful thinking. I could go on but no one cares anyways.....just drink the kool aid and hope for the best.
Oh my word, are you for real? I'm an atheist but I have friends of numerous faiths who strongly believe they have witnessed the hand of their god in their lives, they have many "shreds of proof". They take great comfort from their faith and it has helped them through terrible times. How dare you say that they are "brainwashed" or "selling themselves short"? Each one is a clever person, way more educated than me. If you only believe in what you can see, then fair enough, but if you remember in the old days, some of the most educated and clever scientific people thought the world was flat... Can you see an individual atom with the naked eye...? You can't see the wind, but you see and feel what it does, many feel god is the same...
If someone takes comfort from their god, their teddy bear, their imaginary friend, who are you to mock? Is the comfort less real, less helpful if someone believes, just because YOU don't?
Well it comes down to probabilities. Having science on my side you can say that the probability of what i believe being true is significantly higher than what religion/faith/fanciful thinking thinks is true.
This is not a football game where you play the underdog at 10 to 1 odds and hope you are right. This is real life. I dont know why anyone would play with such poor odds when they dont have to...there are other ways to feel comfort. Why waste precious time pursuing something that had such a low probability of being true?0 -
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derek1237654 wrote: »I would like to say that if AA actually works for you then thats great.
AA has done nothing for me actually less than nothing. Im forced to go to AA/NA by my employer as i had a addiction to prescription medications....in fact i still have to go even though i dont drink or do drugs or even think about drugs whatsover. In fact its the opposite im disgusted by drugs and alcohol.
I just somehow got better....i found a medication to treat depression i lost 70 pounds and have zero interest in alcohol or drugs....you could say i just aged out or matured i guess.
When i go to AA i dont pay attention at all i just put my headphones in and listen to a podcast or something more productive because i just dont care. All they do is talk about the same garbage over and over again and how they are powerless. Well i dont feel powerless i feel empowered. I CHOOSE not to drink or do drugs because it is retarded....atleast it is to me. I can feel 100 times better by going to the gym than i ever could drinking 1 beer or 10 beers or pills.
Has anyone else had a similar experience?
Again im not saying dont go to AA im saying that there are much better ways than a 1930s cult
You don't even think about drugs, huh? ...and yet you started an addiction and recovery thread and rambled on about it.
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Luke_I_am_your_spotter wrote: »derek1237654 wrote: »I would like to say that if AA actually works for you then thats great.
AA has done nothing for me actually less than nothing. Im forced to go to AA/NA by my employer as i had a addiction to prescription medications....in fact i still have to go even though i dont drink or do drugs or even think about drugs whatsover. In fact its the opposite im disgusted by drugs and alcohol.
I just somehow got better....i found a medication to treat depression i lost 70 pounds and have zero interest in alcohol or drugs....you could say i just aged out or matured i guess.
When i go to AA i dont pay attention at all i just put my headphones in and listen to a podcast or something more productive because i just dont care. All they do is talk about the same garbage over and over again and how they are powerless. Well i dont feel powerless i feel empowered. I CHOOSE not to drink or do drugs because it is retarded....atleast it is to me. I can feel 100 times better by going to the gym than i ever could drinking 1 beer or 10 beers or pills.
Has anyone else had a similar experience?
Again im not saying dont go to AA im saying that there are much better ways than a 1930s cult
You don't even think about drugs, huh? ...and yet you started an addiction and recovery thread and rambled on about it.
Well i dont think about drugs in the context of wanting or wishing to use them. If you read my post you would know that already1 -
It's worked wonders for family members and friends of mine. Even non Christian friends who can apply their own spirituality to the set up of AA. However, it's not the only way to heal from addiction, it's just popular. Some of the meeting centers ARE a joke. (I've been to them with my mom as a child, and it seems like people show up drunk to some of them, and I remember being creeped out from older members and requesting to not go back with her after a few incidents of this.) I think MFP is probably the wrong place to rant, however, because you are going to find that people here are trying to improve their lives in multiple ways and well, the popular methods are going to be common here, and trusted.0
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reddevil614 wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »
Those who do not follow the program and do their own thing, struggle with addiction and their lives. Those who follow the program are successful.
that is inherently false....the AA success rate is thought to be about 5-10% only
...because the other 90-95% Do not follow the program as they are supposed to. A person has to be SERIOUSLY ready and wanting to quit. They have to truley want to be successful in order to succeed. Most are not really ready to be sober or they're forced into it.0 -
derek1237654 wrote: »Luke_I_am_your_spotter wrote: »derek1237654 wrote: »I would like to say that if AA actually works for you then thats great.
AA has done nothing for me actually less than nothing. Im forced to go to AA/NA by my employer as i had a addiction to prescription medications....in fact i still have to go even though i dont drink or do drugs or even think about drugs whatsover. In fact its the opposite im disgusted by drugs and alcohol.
I just somehow got better....i found a medication to treat depression i lost 70 pounds and have zero interest in alcohol or drugs....you could say i just aged out or matured i guess.
When i go to AA i dont pay attention at all i just put my headphones in and listen to a podcast or something more productive because i just dont care. All they do is talk about the same garbage over and over again and how they are powerless. Well i dont feel powerless i feel empowered. I CHOOSE not to drink or do drugs because it is retarded....atleast it is to me. I can feel 100 times better by going to the gym than i ever could drinking 1 beer or 10 beers or pills.
Has anyone else had a similar experience?
Again im not saying dont go to AA im saying that there are much better ways than a 1930s cult
You don't even think about drugs, huh? ...and yet you started an addiction and recovery thread and rambled on about it.
Well i dont think about drugs in the context of wanting or wishing to use them. If you read my post you would know that already
You might not have that desire but substances obviously have a strong obsession like effect on you if you are writing about them on a fitness website. I'm sure you will have a response cause you apparently have all the answers when it comes to sobriety...but I'm not here to argue... all I can say is good luck to you.0 -
AA materials as a side effect helped me realize how I was in denial about abusing junk food. I left it totally cold turkey and nearly two years later my health is continuing to return. I had about 5 uncles on my dad's side that abused alcohol (an understatement) and while I never did I sure abused other foods high in carbs that was leading to major joint/muscle pain from Ankylosing Spondylitis.
I do not see AA as a one size fits all anymore than I see one eating macro that is right for all. We are all different in some way.0 -
punkinpatch1326 wrote: »reddevil614 wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »
Those who do not follow the program and do their own thing, struggle with addiction and their lives. Those who follow the program are successful.
that is inherently false....the AA success rate is thought to be about 5-10% only
...because the other 90-95% Do not follow the program as they are supposed to. A person has to be SERIOUSLY ready and wanting to quit. They have to truley want to be successful in order to succeed. Most are not really ready to be sober or they're forced into it.
AA actually has a 0% success rate when you take into account the people that it kills...just go read the orange papers...then you'll get it.0
This discussion has been closed.
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