Calvin Klein 'PLUS SIZE' model
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There is an agreed lower BMI in some countries, I think France very recently got on board with it.6
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xmichaelyx wrote: »It's Calvin Klein, not Torrid or Lane Bryant. Of COURSE size 10 is plus-sized. The fact that it's (sadly) also the new "normal" doesn't change the fact that Calvin Klein -- like most mainstream designers -- has always used very thin models.
Also, her chin does in fact need some de-emphasizing (which it's received in most of her pics). It's almost like models aren't paragons of aesthetic perfection and require some Photoshopping, just like you and me. Just as it's been for decades with airbrushing.I don't care what clothes look like on a size 0 model (which for my size would be size what... -4? considering that they are tall AND size 0). It's not what it will look like on me. What I want to see is what it will look on normal people... that will save me the trouble of having to try out clothes that will inevitably look awful on me.
Congratulations -- Calvin Klein ads aren't geared towards you. I ride a motorcycle and am not fabulously wealthy, so Lamborghini ads aren't geared towards me, but it's never occurred to me to complain about it.KorvapuustiPossu wrote: »It makes no sense to have normal looking models? ... Do they have to be borderline anorexic?
Does it really make you feel better about yourself to call thin people "borderline anorexic"?
Huh why not? I have Calvin Klein clothes (workout clothes in fine). Size S actually. And I'm a size 6, and I'm nowhere as thin as that 'plus size' model.
So if their ads are not geared towards me, well... I have to wonder who they are geared for?
I'm not even going to get into the Tess debate, there have been threads about her, and they ended up badly.. lol.2 -
Yes, the sample sizes are tiny. Yes, models lose contracts if their hips are wide enough that they won't fit the sample sizes. High fashion companies are businesses, and one of the ways they keep on track is by going for uniformity in models. If you're putting on a show and one of your girls gets sick the day of, it's a lot easier to get deal with a replacement when your clothing is sized for a 0 or 2 than a 6. There's less variation between body types, meaning no last-minute tailoring or issues with clothes not zipping up. Also, your line will look more like a collection if the bodies are all fairly uniform.
If you're sending a bunch of clothes over to Elle for a spread, you're probably not getting to meet your models ahead of time and tailor the clothes to their bodies. They'll have girls there, and the clothes need to fit. Plus imagine the time it would take (and therefore cost) to tailor an entire collection to size 4, 6, 8 size bodies, with the much wider differences that can come in hips and busts and fat distribution across the stomach, back, thighs...
If we're talking about models on the Macy's website instead of high-fashion runway models, there usually is a little more variation. They're still typically size 2s or tall 4s, but there's more differences in curves. You can get a good sense if a particular brand will look good on you by the model - if she's flat-chested and you're a DD, the brand probably is designed around a straight body type, but if she's a pronounced hourglass it's worth trying on. The problem with putting women bigger than that and trying to market clothing is that you're straying away from middle ground that reaches the most people - body types become more exaggerated. I think a good way to see what I'm talking about is to go to Rent The Runway and see the self-submitted photos. The models are fairly neutral, but the women who rent the dresses range in body types, and some are better at displaying the dress than others.
Models like Myla get chosen to be representatives of a specific image a brand is trying to convey, and I like seeing that. Seeing a variety of bodies in clothing, bodies closer to how I look, is appreciated. But your more generic models are still going to be very slim because that's how the industry is streamlined.
And as someone who has had an ED as a teen and again as an adult, I really don't care what the fashion industry does, and I never felt pressure from it or idealized it. I know other people have different experiences, some do feel pressure. But the industry is shifting to be healthier overall, those obviously unhealthy models are becoming fewer and fewer, and education about and assistance for EDs has grown tremendously. I think society has much bigger health issues to worry about than underweight models.6 -
So what I've gathered is, anything over a size 4 is plus size in the fashion industry. Why can't we have more models sizes 6-10 (does plus size start at 12 or 14) to model clothes designers sell us in those sizes, without calling them plus size ? They aren't. I think calling a size 10 (or size 6, or size 8) plus size is not accurate. Things like this is why women have bad body images even when they are within a normal weight range (in my opinion)9
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KorvapuustiPossu wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »i'm sorry but this is ridiculous.
She is a plus size MODEL. Of course she looks good. this is irrelevant.
I just want to say that this mentality you are talking about is just silly. Listen, the fact of the matter is... 70.2% of people in the united states are overweight. Of that almost half are seriously obese. Let's please drop the "think of the children!" argument, because the fact of the matter is 70% are likely to be fat once they reach adulthood and only 4% may develop an eating disorder during their lifetime.
I'm not okay with models who are clearly suffering from anorexia, but i'm perfectly fine with a healthy model who is a size 0 modeling clothes. The whole reason they are models is because they fill a specific standard of beauty. They are generally their size because this is how clothing designers want their outfits portrayed (draped). And this is really only in high-fashion modeling.
Look at the angels... notice anything similar?
there are plenty of models whom we would consider "normal" size who model clothing, do advertisements, and more.
What we don't need is people confusing the fact that the above women is modeling plus size clothing (size 10). It is what it is.
More and more as we get fatter and fatter as a society we are becoming more and more conditioned to seeing very large people all the time. this is not how human bodies were designed. Period. Why do they pick a woman who wears a size 10 as their plus size model vs someone who is "actually fat" like, say, tess holiday?
Because she is still an appropriately sized human being within a healthy weight range. Her proportions fit her body. She has the desired hourglass shape which highlights the clothing she wears. Her body is still young and glowing. And she radiates health.
If we had genuinely obese people modeling clothing, quite frankly no one would buy anything. Models don't sell us the clothing; they sell us the idea of how we'll look in the clothing.
It's also important to mention that as we have low body fat the variations seen in body type are very very minimal. this means that a small model of similar height will look the same as other models of similar height which means they portray clothing the same.
The fatter you get the more body type is apparent, no two fat people hold fat in the exact same places. What does that mean? it means that they cannot model plus size clothing consistently as clothing makers cannot make clothing that looks consistent on fatter people. Someone may hold their fat in the stomach, legs, butt, chest, etc. Clothing therefore has to be tailored to their specific body measurements.
Let's next talk about the fact that a model like myla can actually show off women's clothing. Whereas someone like tess:
You can see they have to use posing manipulation to get her to actually show the clothing and not just look like a giant blob. You'll commonly see side shots, hand on the hip to accentuate a false waist, leg popped out to the side to accentuate a false curve, feet apart to give the illusion of an hourglass figure, and more. Someone like tess cannot even stand with feet together, with arms straight at the side, etc. like myla can because her anatomy doesn't even allow it. See Below for an example:
The fact is, they will always pick someone like Myla to model plus size clothing instead of someone who is obese because her body type MODELS better than someone who is obese. She sells the idea, she drapes clothing, her body radiates beauty and health.
As far as models which are "too skinny", there are more and more regulations being put into place to keep models who are TOO thin off the runways. Being too-thin is now less desirable. This doesn't mean we should have "average people" models (for the reasons i provided). And it doesn't mean that plus size isn't plus size just because the model is not visibly "fat".
edit: my point is the whole point of a models job is to make clothing look good and to be beautiful but not too distracting. They will always pick women who show clothing the best and who represent the "beauty" they are trying to project. You will not see "average" looking people, older people, the "dad bod", the obese, the unhealthy, the crippled, and more selling high end clothing because it does not reflect the artistic vision for these items.
Is it OK if we think she's pretty? :headscratch:
obviously? like i said... she's a model isn't she?
I was only addressing the nonsense from the original post.
Ah, gotcha.
I'm glad you brought up Tess. I don't know what to think of her, but it seems to me like she's the one that we should be having a conversation about.
Again no...I wasn't trying to talk about actual PLUS sizes... I was just pointing out this healthy weight woman who wears regular size (10) and not plus size clothes being referred to as PLUS. I think that people who can walk into regular clothes shop and find fitting clothes can't be referred to as PLUS size. And pointing out that their usual models are BMI 16 and terribly underweight so no wonder healthy weight woman looks BIG to them now. And hiring underweight models promotes being underweight as a beauty standard.
S'okay. I agree with you. I'd love to see more models like Myla.
Me too!1 -
The fashion industry just wants "clothes hangers". Thin girls are easier to use for the designers to show the clothes. I understand that. But a normal sized woman won't look the same in them!1
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I'm not saying I agree with anything one way or the other but I kind of find it amusing how I've seen multiple times on these boards when someone is overweight the BMI scale, despite having a pretty wide range, is "flawed" and "needs to be updated" and how extremely muscular people are considered obese on the BMI scale when that obviously does not apply to 99% of people posting here. Yet when a woman goes below 18, BMI is suddenly the holy grail of reference and she's borderline anorexic/obviously unhealthy. If teetering above the healthy weight range on the BMI scale is perfectly acceptable, why is teetering below it not acceptable as well?14
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Synacious, there isn't anything wrong with having lower BMI. Everyone should be free to find clothing for where they are on the BMI charts.0
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I feel that this is should be just what is expected for the fashion industry, neither good or bad. In fact, this is my favorite from any body-positivity campaign. A healthy woman was chosen. Neither overweight or underweight. Not saying those body types are an indicator of health by the way.
Models are a mannequin almost. Their job is to show off the clothes the majority of the time. Makeup and hair is done either minimally or flamboyantly to accentuate what is there with the clothing. The models are smaller to not be distracting. From what I know, most high fashion models are picked for having very normal features because it wouldn't take anything away from the clothes. My ex was a clothing designer for major brands, and this is just what she told me. If anyone could provide additional information to this, go ahead.2 -
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I've never understood how someone size 10 can model "plus size clothes" when plus size starts at a 14. So do they make a special outfit smaller just for her to model? If so, that's got to cost more money! It's stupid IMO.6
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She's yummyyummy2
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Kettle_Belle14 wrote: »I've never understood how someone size 10 can model "plus size clothes" when plus size starts at a 14. So do they make a special outfit smaller just for her to model? If so, that's got to cost more money! It's stupid IMO.
They clip it for photos. Not many plus size retailers do runway shows.1 -
And clipping is why they use a slightly smaller than the smallest size of the range model, to ensure they will fit the garment. A someone else pointed out, there's a far broader range of body types and body shape variance the larger you get so you want to make sure that the person you book can get into everything you need them too. Cost saving. Same principal as sample sizes at the smaller end.0
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The plus size magazines I order from, Roamans and Woman Within, use mostly rail thin women. They may show one woman who probably wears a 16 in the whole catalog. To me, that is giving a big girl a false image of what she is going to look like when she orders that outfit, because they alter the clothes and tuck them up to fit those skinny women. I have ordered from them for years and years and the clothes have never fit me like they fit the skinny girls, they jut hang on me!2
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And another afterthought, plus size in the UK starts at 16/US12.1
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VintageFeline wrote: »
High fashion perhaps could be more extreme, but catalog models should be able to be a bit more average sized, IMO.2 -
I don't think anything is wrong with the low BMI women at all. If that person actually had a health issue due to it I would be concerned. However I don't associate low BMI women with eating disorders.
I still think what I stated above that a size 10 model should not be called plus size, she's not.
Just would like to see more more women like Myla modeling without being referred to as plus size. She gives me a more accurate idea of what clothes would look like on me, rather than someone a lot smaller.
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VintageFeline wrote: »
It's Calvin Klein though. Not exactly Channel or something (I'm totally clueless about fashion).0 -
I find her stats kind of confusing honestly as mine are similar and I'm a size 2-4 depending on brand. She's an inch taller and 8 pounds heavier and yet several sizes larger...very curious. Otherwise though, I have no effs to give- one of my cousins has been doing high fashion modelling for more than a decade, Italian Vogue, the works and if you stood her next to this lady the plus sized model would LOOK plus sized. I look at it as a comparative term, she can't be too disparaged by it given how much money she's making off being the pinnacle of all this buzz.0
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wolfgirl78 wrote: »I don't think anything is wrong with the low BMI women at all. If that person actually had a health issue due to it I would be concerned. However I don't associate low BMI women with eating disorders.
I still think what I stated above that a size 10 model should not be called plus size, she's not.
Just would like to see more more women like Myla modeling without being referred to as plus size. She gives me a more accurate idea of what clothes would look like on me, rather than someone a lot smaller.
That is the point of the whole article. There aren't models representing "normal" BMI.1 -
wolfgirl78 wrote: »I don't think anything is wrong with the low BMI women at all. If that person actually had a health issue due to it I would be concerned. However I don't associate low BMI women with eating disorders.
I still think what I stated above that a size 10 model should not be called plus size, she's not.
Just would like to see more more women like Myla modeling without being referred to as plus size. She gives me a more accurate idea of what clothes would look like on me, rather than someone a lot smaller.
That is the point of the whole article. There aren't models representing "normal" BMI.
I know. I just felt this thread got derailed from that point by people accusing OP of wanting to outlaw hiring women with underweight BMI's. I never got that from any of her post I read3 -
VintageFeline wrote: »
It's Calvin Klein though. Not exactly Channel or something (I'm totally clueless about fashion).
I was referring to the very slim models.
Calvin Klein are using this chick (and a lot of celebrities, so yeah, aspiration there too) so not the waifs of high end designer.
And catalogue models are generally not the stats of runway. Runway models are a breed unto themselves, commercial models are often a little less extreme in all ways, looks, build etc because they have to model a high street brand that has a starting size of US4/UK8. Those models are often closer to a US2/UK6. Again a little smaller to ensure they can shoot the clothes without any fit issues other than a little clipping of the garment.
Honestly, I've been on the other side of this debate. In plus ranges I never saw someone that looked like me and it is frustrating but I also understand why. Indie brands will often have a broader range of body shapes and sizes because they shoot the collection post production (if anyone wants examples to look at I can point in the direction of) so have a range of sizes to hand. Bigger companies shoot pre-production so have to make sure one sample garment will fit the model.0 -
That plus-size Calvin Klein model's body looked like mine and was the same size as me at my heaviest point (which was the top end of my healthy BMI range) and no one would have EVER considered me to be plus size! She looks great and I would question the sanity or judgment of anyone who would say that this woman is "fat" or "chubby."
I'm now much slimmer than that since losing weight. (I needed to drop some weight to get down to the lower half of my healthy BMI range because, for some crappy reason, my health suffers when it's not. My blood pressure, cholesterol, inflammation markers, etc. all shoot way up if I'm in the top half of the healthy range. Doesn't matter that I've been a long-distance runner both before and after the loss. My doctor says some people are genetically like that. I come from a family of very slim people. The moment we put on weight everything goes to hell.)
But when I was heavier, I never looked "fat" or "plus-sized" or whatever else they are calling this woman. I look pretty good either way, IMO. And SHE looks awesome!
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VintageFeline wrote: »
It's Calvin Klein though. Not exactly Channel or something (I'm totally clueless about fashion).
Calvin Klein has tiers, just like Michael Kors. There's plenty of ready-wear in department stores, but they also do high fashion lines where the garments are $2000+.0 -
My thoughts: I think it's disgusting that the modelling industry calls her plus size, but modelling is about clothes not people. Ultimately though, she's hot. I totally totally would
Her body shape is also vaguely achievable for someone of my frame. I have now got both a goal to aspire to and a new crush. Win. 0 -
I used to be a size 8 and am now a size 12. I would love to have role models who look great at a size 10.0
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I see this stuff posted on multiple sites, followed by people going crazy over how the model isn't plus size.
Unless I am mistaken plus size more often refers to height not weight in the modelling world. Like the op said she is 180cm, if you google other plus sized models they seem to be similar heights.
Sure you do have plus sized models that are over weight, but if the model looks like a healthy weight, maybe just assume they are tall if labeled plus size.
Also they never say they are a plus sized women, but a plus sized model, like they have their own scale. Like men and women have different size scales. A large man isn't the same size as a large women. Just like a plus sized model isn't the same size as a plus sized women.
I don't know, I just find it odd people get so worked up over a minor word used to describe a very small percentage of the population, and often they are worked up because they misunderstand the term.1
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