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Should junk food be taxed?
Replies
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Lots of places have seatbelt laws to keep people safe and functioning in a healthy way. I'm not trying to protect people from everything. I'm just advocating for a healthier lifestyle for America.WinoGelato wrote: »
Educating people is fine and dandy but it doesn't stop them from making poor choices. It would be fan-freaking-tastic if everyone learned about nutrition. For those who don't want to learn anything they can have a card and just use that as their crutch. Helpful, easy.WinoGelato wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
Ah. So not only can you define what is meant by "healthy" or "unhealthy", you don't actually care to educate the masses. You just want some arbitrary rule determined by the powers that be to be enforced upon citizens who don't even need to think for themselves. Sounds awesome.
People make poor choices about any number of things in life. How they spend their money, not wearing seat belts, having unprotected sex, the list goes on and on. How are you going to protect people from every poor choice they're potentially make unless you remove freedom of choice altogether?
Seatbelt laws are a minor intrusion. What you are proposing is way past the line of minor. Like way past.
If you can't see the difference, well, I don't know how to explain it to you.
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There is no one size fits all. I'm not defining parameters because there are none. It's like you're begging me to start defining things so that you can say it's crazy. You'd be right. It is crazy to have a one size fits all plan. Hence the lack of parameters.WinoGelato wrote: »
You didn't actually ask a question to dodge, but I'm dodging nothing.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
No, I'm asking because you are proposing something, without defining parameters. Stop dodging the question.
There are no parameters. You just follow whatever is loaded onto your card. If you have special needs then that gets loaded.
The questions have been asked clearly and many times in this thread. What is healthy? What is unhealthy? Are these foods unhealthy in any quantity and frequency?
0 -
Nope and everyone gets one. If you're already making good, healthy choices then there is no change. There really is no downside for people who already eat healthy.nutmegoreo wrote: »
Educating people is fine and dandy but it doesn't stop them from making poor choices. It would be fan-freaking-tastic if everyone learned about nutrition. For those who don't want to learn anything they can have a card and just use that as their crutch. Helpful, easy.WinoGelato wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
Ah. So not only can you define what is meant by "healthy" or "unhealthy", you don't actually care to educate the masses. You just want some arbitrary rule determined by the powers that be to be enforced upon citizens who don't even need to think for themselves. Sounds awesome.
So only the uneducated masses get a card? Who decides if you're smart enough to not need a card?6 -
There is no one size fits all. I'm not defining parameters because there are none. It's like you're begging me to start defining things so that you can say it's crazy. You'd be right. It is crazy to have a one size fits all plan. Hence the lack of parameters.WinoGelato wrote: »
You didn't actually ask a question to dodge, but I'm dodging nothing.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
No, I'm asking because you are proposing something, without defining parameters. Stop dodging the question.
There are no parameters. You just follow whatever is loaded onto your card. If you have special needs then that gets loaded.
The questions have been asked clearly and many times in this thread. What is healthy? What is unhealthy? Are these foods unhealthy in any quantity and frequency?
So who does define the parameter? That's like telling a group of kindergarten children to behave without telling them what is considered misbehaving. And yes, it's an apt comparison because you are proposing to treat adults like children.8 -
Nope and everyone gets one. If you're already making good, healthy choices then there is no change. There really is no downside for people who already eat healthy.nutmegoreo wrote: »
Educating people is fine and dandy but it doesn't stop them from making poor choices. It would be fan-freaking-tastic if everyone learned about nutrition. For those who don't want to learn anything they can have a card and just use that as their crutch. Helpful, easy.WinoGelato wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
Ah. So not only can you define what is meant by "healthy" or "unhealthy", you don't actually care to educate the masses. You just want some arbitrary rule determined by the powers that be to be enforced upon citizens who don't even need to think for themselves. Sounds awesome.
So only the uneducated masses get a card? Who decides if you're smart enough to not need a card?
I've dropped close to 120 pounds total, eating mostly sausage, ground beef, protein bars, oils, butters, heavy creams, and eggs. Given that my dietary intake is so far out of line with FDA recommendations (I'm keto-adapted ffs, and they recommend hundreds of grams of carbs per day), though my health markers are up, would you then agree that a diet that's over 65% fat is plenty healthy?0 -
If eating healthy and not overdoing it on Cheetos sounds like telling you how to spend your money then fine.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
To help people make healthy choices. Give it some time and people would be better able to tell what is and isn't good for them. Until they learn, rely on the card. It won't let you buy too many Cheetos.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
So if I can buy whatever I please, what is the point of the card
" it won't let you buy too many cheetos"......so it is telling me how to spend MY money.
I had a graduation open house for my daughter, at least 100 people in and out of my house. Bought lots of fruit AND bags of chips ( with MY money) so with the card I guess I couldn't do that.......with MY money2 -
So @Zipp237, how much of my money will be put on this card? Does everyone get the same amount? If I use all the money on my card before it gets refilled, do I just starve? Will the goverment take the rest of my paycheck and tell me what to do with it?2
-
None, yes, doesn't apply, doesn't apply.stephanieluvspb wrote: »So @Zipp237, how much of my money will be put on this card? Does everyone get the same amount? If I use all the money on my card before it gets refilled, do I just starve? Will the goverment take the rest of my paycheck and tell me what to do with it?
0 -
There is no one size fits all. I'm not defining parameters because there are none. It's like you're begging me to start defining things so that you can say it's crazy. You'd be right. It is crazy to have a one size fits all plan. Hence the lack of parameters.WinoGelato wrote: »
You didn't actually ask a question to dodge, but I'm dodging nothing.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
No, I'm asking because you are proposing something, without defining parameters. Stop dodging the question.
There are no parameters. You just follow whatever is loaded onto your card. If you have special needs then that gets loaded.
The questions have been asked clearly and many times in this thread. What is healthy? What is unhealthy? Are these foods unhealthy in any quantity and frequency?
What's crazy is that a person who was so adamant earlier in this thread that individuals needed to be protected from making unhealthy choices, that it was the biggest crisis facing Americans, can't even begin to define in the most basic terms what is healthy and unhealthy. You keep saying if someone is eating healthy they get to keep eating that way. Is this kind of like pornography, you can't say exactly what it is but you know it when you see it?4 -
I didn't say it was the biggest crisis facing Americans. So there's that. There isn't any single diet that would benefit every single person, so nobody can come up with one single diet.WinoGelato wrote: »
There is no one size fits all. I'm not defining parameters because there are none. It's like you're begging me to start defining things so that you can say it's crazy. You'd be right. It is crazy to have a one size fits all plan. Hence the lack of parameters.WinoGelato wrote: »
You didn't actually ask a question to dodge, but I'm dodging nothing.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
No, I'm asking because you are proposing something, without defining parameters. Stop dodging the question.
There are no parameters. You just follow whatever is loaded onto your card. If you have special needs then that gets loaded.
The questions have been asked clearly and many times in this thread. What is healthy? What is unhealthy? Are these foods unhealthy in any quantity and frequency?
What's crazy is that a person who was so adamant earlier in this thread that individuals needed to be protected from making unhealthy choices, that it was the biggest crisis facing Americans, can't even begin to define in the most basic terms what is healthy and unhealthy. You keep saying if someone is eating healthy they get to keep eating that way. Is this kind of like pornography, you can't say exactly what it is but you know it when you see it?
1 -
None, yes, doesn't apply, doesn't apply.stephanieluvspb wrote: »So @Zipp237, how much of my money will be put on this card? Does everyone get the same amount? If I use all the money on my card before it gets refilled, do I just starve? Will the goverment take the rest of my paycheck and tell me what to do with it?
Wait, so the healthy food allowance isn't even our own money? And everyone has the same amount, regardless of income? Where does the money come from?0 -
I didn't say it was the biggest crisis facing Americans. So there's that. There isn't any single diet that would benefit every single person, so nobody can come up with one single diet.WinoGelato wrote: »
There is no one size fits all. I'm not defining parameters because there are none. It's like you're begging me to start defining things so that you can say it's crazy. You'd be right. It is crazy to have a one size fits all plan. Hence the lack of parameters.WinoGelato wrote: »
You didn't actually ask a question to dodge, but I'm dodging nothing.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
No, I'm asking because you are proposing something, without defining parameters. Stop dodging the question.
There are no parameters. You just follow whatever is loaded onto your card. If you have special needs then that gets loaded.
The questions have been asked clearly and many times in this thread. What is healthy? What is unhealthy? Are these foods unhealthy in any quantity and frequency?
What's crazy is that a person who was so adamant earlier in this thread that individuals needed to be protected from making unhealthy choices, that it was the biggest crisis facing Americans, can't even begin to define in the most basic terms what is healthy and unhealthy. You keep saying if someone is eating healthy they get to keep eating that way. Is this kind of like pornography, you can't say exactly what it is but you know it when you see it?
So, then this whole thing is a fool's errand, unless we sink a buttload of money into a whole lot of preemptive testing, trial and error, on every single individual.1 -
WinoGelato wrote: »
None, yes, doesn't apply, doesn't apply.stephanieluvspb wrote: »So @Zipp237, how much of my money will be put on this card? Does everyone get the same amount? If I use all the money on my card before it gets refilled, do I just starve? Will the goverment take the rest of my paycheck and tell me what to do with it?
Wait, so the healthy food allowance isn't even our own money? And everyone has the same amount, regardless of income? Where does the money come from?
Also to these questions - so people can go out and buy more food with their own money?1 -
3dogsrunning wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »
None, yes, doesn't apply, doesn't apply.stephanieluvspb wrote: »So @Zipp237, how much of my money will be put on this card? Does everyone get the same amount? If I use all the money on my card before it gets refilled, do I just starve? Will the goverment take the rest of my paycheck and tell me what to do with it?
Wait, so the healthy food allowance isn't even our own money? And everyone has the same amount, regardless of income? Where does the money come from?
Also to these questions - so people can go out and buy more food with their own money?
More slush money for black market Oreos for me!2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
I didn't say it was the biggest crisis facing Americans. So there's that. There isn't any single diet that would benefit every single person, so nobody can come up with one single diet.WinoGelato wrote: »
There is no one size fits all. I'm not defining parameters because there are none. It's like you're begging me to start defining things so that you can say it's crazy. You'd be right. It is crazy to have a one size fits all plan. Hence the lack of parameters.WinoGelato wrote: »
You didn't actually ask a question to dodge, but I'm dodging nothing.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
No, I'm asking because you are proposing something, without defining parameters. Stop dodging the question.
There are no parameters. You just follow whatever is loaded onto your card. If you have special needs then that gets loaded.
The questions have been asked clearly and many times in this thread. What is healthy? What is unhealthy? Are these foods unhealthy in any quantity and frequency?
What's crazy is that a person who was so adamant earlier in this thread that individuals needed to be protected from making unhealthy choices, that it was the biggest crisis facing Americans, can't even begin to define in the most basic terms what is healthy and unhealthy. You keep saying if someone is eating healthy they get to keep eating that way. Is this kind of like pornography, you can't say exactly what it is but you know it when you see it?
So, then this whole thing is a fool's errand, unless we sink a buttload of money into a whole lot of preemptive testing, trial and error, on every single individual.
Not only the money spent to determine the perfect healthy diet for millions of individuals, to perform baseline medical testing and then ongoing testing to validate that health is improving for those individuals, and then don't forget the money spent to actually load the cards up every month. But don't worry, the economy will be fine after we put tens of thousands of workers out of jobs when we close all the McDonalds and shut down Frito Lay and other manufacturers...
1 -
WinoGelato wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »
None, yes, doesn't apply, doesn't apply.stephanieluvspb wrote: »So @Zipp237, how much of my money will be put on this card? Does everyone get the same amount? If I use all the money on my card before it gets refilled, do I just starve? Will the goverment take the rest of my paycheck and tell me what to do with it?
Wait, so the healthy food allowance isn't even our own money? And everyone has the same amount, regardless of income? Where does the money come from?
Also to these questions - so people can go out and buy more food with their own money?
More slush money for black market Oreos for me!
My husband just at one of my Kit Kat bars. Can you imagine the fall out if that was a black market bar?!5 -
None, yes, doesn't apply, doesn't apply.stephanieluvspb wrote: »So @Zipp237, how much of my money will be put on this card? Does everyone get the same amount? If I use all the money on my card before it gets refilled, do I just starve? Will the goverment take the rest of my paycheck and tell me what to do with it?
So where is the money coming from?1 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
I didn't say it was the biggest crisis facing Americans. So there's that. There isn't any single diet that would benefit every single person, so nobody can come up with one single diet.WinoGelato wrote: »
There is no one size fits all. I'm not defining parameters because there are none. It's like you're begging me to start defining things so that you can say it's crazy. You'd be right. It is crazy to have a one size fits all plan. Hence the lack of parameters.WinoGelato wrote: »
You didn't actually ask a question to dodge, but I'm dodging nothing.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
No, I'm asking because you are proposing something, without defining parameters. Stop dodging the question.
There are no parameters. You just follow whatever is loaded onto your card. If you have special needs then that gets loaded.
The questions have been asked clearly and many times in this thread. What is healthy? What is unhealthy? Are these foods unhealthy in any quantity and frequency?
What's crazy is that a person who was so adamant earlier in this thread that individuals needed to be protected from making unhealthy choices, that it was the biggest crisis facing Americans, can't even begin to define in the most basic terms what is healthy and unhealthy. You keep saying if someone is eating healthy they get to keep eating that way. Is this kind of like pornography, you can't say exactly what it is but you know it when you see it?
So, then this whole thing is a fool's errand, unless we sink a buttload of money into a whole lot of preemptive testing, trial and error, on every single individual.
Not only the money spent to determine the perfect healthy diet for millions of individuals, to perform baseline medical testing and then ongoing testing to validate that health is improving for those individuals, and then don't forget the money spent to actually load the cards up every month. But don't worry, the economy will be fine after we put tens of thousands of workers out of jobs when we close all the McDonalds and shut down Frito Lay and other manufacturers...
It's cool. We can put them to work doing the testing, because at this point, we're so far down the rabbit hole, we might as well transfer fast food workers into medical screening.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
I didn't say it was the biggest crisis facing Americans. So there's that. There isn't any single diet that would benefit every single person, so nobody can come up with one single diet.WinoGelato wrote: »
There is no one size fits all. I'm not defining parameters because there are none. It's like you're begging me to start defining things so that you can say it's crazy. You'd be right. It is crazy to have a one size fits all plan. Hence the lack of parameters.WinoGelato wrote: »
You didn't actually ask a question to dodge, but I'm dodging nothing.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
No, I'm asking because you are proposing something, without defining parameters. Stop dodging the question.
There are no parameters. You just follow whatever is loaded onto your card. If you have special needs then that gets loaded.
The questions have been asked clearly and many times in this thread. What is healthy? What is unhealthy? Are these foods unhealthy in any quantity and frequency?
What's crazy is that a person who was so adamant earlier in this thread that individuals needed to be protected from making unhealthy choices, that it was the biggest crisis facing Americans, can't even begin to define in the most basic terms what is healthy and unhealthy. You keep saying if someone is eating healthy they get to keep eating that way. Is this kind of like pornography, you can't say exactly what it is but you know it when you see it?
So, then this whole thing is a fool's errand, unless we sink a buttload of money into a whole lot of preemptive testing, trial and error, on every single individual.
Not only the money spent to determine the perfect healthy diet for millions of individuals, to perform baseline medical testing and then ongoing testing to validate that health is improving for those individuals, and then don't forget the money spent to actually load the cards up every month. But don't worry, the economy will be fine after we put tens of thousands of workers out of jobs when we close all the McDonalds and shut down Frito Lay and other manufacturers...
It's cool. We can put them to work doing the testing, because at this point, we're so far down the rabbit hole, we might as well transfer fast food workers into medical screening.
I'm sure the skills are transferable.1 -
I've lost 50+ pounds to get to a healthy weight and maintained that loss for over 15 years. I had a physical recently with excellent blood test results. Can I assume that under @Zipp237 's definition I am "eating healthy"? If so - good news everybody - we all get to eat Trader Joe's dark chocolate covered caramels (my dessert tonight)!
But seriously - I loved the mention a page or so back about having doctors set the diet allowances. I'm so glad we've finally found something for them to do in their copious spare time.
Oh - but I see the suggestion above about getting the fast food workers involved in the screenings. No risk there!1 -
This card and the food fascist administrative behemoth needed to support it is surely going to cost far more than the imagined healthcare savings.
I imagine Zipp237's next crusade would be to terminate everyone over 65, since that is when healthcare costs begin to really escalate statistically. That'll save a ton on end-of-life care when everyone gets a state sponsored ticket to the pearly gates. It'll save social security as a bonus, since nobody's collecting.9 -
Human history shows sooner or later the masses find a way to cut their lives short one way or another. The trend will continue I expect for the masses. Living a long and fully functioning life is not taught early on when after a T-ball game McDonald's is the reward for success.
0 -
Ah, diminishing the gene pool 1
-
Lots of places have seatbelt laws to keep people safe and functioning in a healthy way. I'm not trying to protect people from everything. I'm just advocating for a healthier lifestyle for America.WinoGelato wrote: »
Educating people is fine and dandy but it doesn't stop them from making poor choices. It would be fan-freaking-tastic if everyone learned about nutrition. For those who don't want to learn anything they can have a card and just use that as their crutch. Helpful, easy.WinoGelato wrote: »
This is an excellent reason why a Healthy USA program would be beneficial. People wouldn't have to learn about the elements of a healthy diet. They'd just use the card. If you try to buy Oreos and you're over your limit you just cannot buy them and have to use up some of your other choices. You don't have to guess or wonder or do any learning at all. It's right on the card. The more I think about it, the better an idea it seems to be. Except alcohol. That's a puzzling one.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
No. Buy whatever you please. Nobody is telling anybody what to eat. Spend as much or as little as you like.stephanieluvspb wrote: »
It really isn't different. The only people who will have a change are people who aren't already eating healthy.Carlos_421 wrote: »
Again, nobody is being told what they can and cannot eat. If you want Cheetos, choose Cheetos. Your choice. Carlos can have his Oreos.WinoGelato wrote: »
If you're already eating healthy then nothing changes. If you're not eating healthy it's a nudge in the right direction.Carlos_421 wrote: »
If you're eating healthy, then nothing changes and you're getting upset over nothing.Carlos_421 wrote: »
This thread with people fighting for the right to be unhealthy just proves how much help they need and how they're incapable of eating and being healthy on their own.Carlos_421 wrote: »It would certainly be easier and cheaper for everyone to have a card but people seem really upset, so I guess a tax is better for now. Let them pay their healthcare costs via a tax. A diet system as part of healthcare would be good in the future. It is time to start discussing it now so people get used it and will calm down about it.
I still think a card would be easier and do a better job lowering healthcare costs, but fine. Tax for now, card later.
How about none of the above?
The tax is a done deal. We are going to tax junk food. Reading this thread makes me even more certain that we need a card system as part of our health are system. People have to learn to eat for health because nothing is more important than our health and our children's health.
You've gotta be kidding me...
Lady, if one of us needs help from the other I can assure you I'm not the needy one. And I sure don't need help from a government bureaucracy.
I eat deliberately and toward my goals. I get a solid balance of macronutrients and also ensure proper intake of micronutrients as well.
All my health markers are fantastic. My blood work is great. My blood pressure is excellent. I'm the picture of health.
I've run a 5k in under 23 minutes. I've deadlifted 2.5 times my bodyweight. I'm also currently cutting weight shooting for single digit body fat.
Educate me. Please tell me where I need help from the government.
Resistance to government encroachment on my life is not proof for its necessity!
And why do you keep saying the tax is a done deal? I'm pretty sure it would have made the news by now and I sure haven't seen anything about it (I even looked).
Done deal = going to happen. Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't mean that it had already happened. It will, though. Cannot stop that.
Don't we already tax pop? I don't hear anyone complain about that.
My liberties change!!
And you already said you want to get rid of McD's so that affects me on a fairly regular basis (here's lookin at you, artisan grilled chicken sandwich).
What about my Oreos? I include a lot of Oreos in my healthy diet. I have a feeling the food gestapo would try to take them from me in your plan.
And no, we don't already tax pop.
Stop fighting for the freedom to be unhealthy. That is the insane thing.
You seem to be evading a lot of the questions about specifics.... Cheetohs, are they allowed or not allowed? What about Carlos' beloved Oreos? What at McDonalds isn't allowed, since you said they should stop selling the unhealthy food? I asked what was unhealthy at McDonalds and if it is unhealthy in any quantity and any frequency...
You keep saying those of us eating healthy will be able to continue to do so, but my definition of healthy eating is anything that fits within my calorie limit and provides a variety of macro and micronutrients. That includes McDonalds, Cheetohs, Oreos, ice cream and wine on a pretty regular basis...
So if we're able to get whatever we want with the card, just how is it different than the visa I already use and how is it any kind of a solution?
So, I'm still around 40 pounds overweight. I went to college and now work my butt of 12-13 hour days to earn MY money. Are you telling me you think the government should take my paycheck, put it on a card and tell me how to spend MY money that I worked for?
We already do this with WIC recipients. They even have *buy this, not that* and they're actually limited by brand in some cases. This cereal, not that cereal. It isn't complicated and it works. I'm not suggesting that a card would have to be as limited as the WIC program, but a national food program could work and be a good way to get people to eat healthier.
A Healthier USA. It's good for everyone.
I also must have missed the part where you defined "healthy". I keep seeing little tidbits here and there about what is bad, but please, enlighten me as to exactly what constitutes healthy, in your opinion.
Ah. So not only can you define what is meant by "healthy" or "unhealthy", you don't actually care to educate the masses. You just want some arbitrary rule determined by the powers that be to be enforced upon citizens who don't even need to think for themselves. Sounds awesome.
People make poor choices about any number of things in life. How they spend their money, not wearing seat belts, having unprotected sex, the list goes on and on. How are you going to protect people from every poor choice they're potentially make unless you remove freedom of choice altogether?
But isn't your safety more important than freedom???2 -
stephanieluvspb wrote: »
None, yes, doesn't apply, doesn't apply.stephanieluvspb wrote: »So @Zipp237, how much of my money will be put on this card? Does everyone get the same amount? If I use all the money on my card before it gets refilled, do I just starve? Will the goverment take the rest of my paycheck and tell me what to do with it?
So where is the money coming from?
Maybe she plans to fund it with all the tax money from the junk food you won't be allowed to buy!2 -
-
No, because why should people who like to treat themselves every now and again suffer, for the sake of other greedy people.1
-
We definitely need to tax (INSERT TODAY'S FOOD VILLIAN). Tax them at (INSERT RANDOM PERCENT) so we can protect (INSERT VICTIM CLASS) from the evil (INSERT TODAYS 'EVIL' CORPORATION/LOBBY). Wait a couple years and then repeat with most recent unpopular villain, victim, and corporation/lobby.8
-
GaleHawkins wrote: »Human history shows sooner or later the masses find a way to cut their lives short one way or another. The trend will continue I expect for the masses. Living a long and fully functioning life is not taught early on when after a T-ball game McDonald's is the reward for success.
No I disagree. It's the reward for showing up.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Human history shows sooner or later the masses find a way to cut their lives short one way or another. The trend will continue I expect for the masses. Living a long and fully functioning life is not taught early on when after a T-ball game McDonald's is the reward for success.
No I disagree. It's the reward for showing up.
While that is a problem for some areas, it's not really relevant to this topic. Unless of course, you are somehow tying it together via "I'm alive, therefore take care of me, no matter how terrible my choices are". In which case yeah, I could see your point.1
This discussion has been closed.
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