July (2016) Running Challenge

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  • ereck44
    ereck44 Posts: 1,171 Member
    July running challenge: goal is 60 miles.

    7/5...4 miles
    7/7...3.66 miles (rolling hills program on the treadmill)--11:06 pace.

    Plan is for long run today....going to push it to 10 miles and plan to stay at 10 miles for the rest of the month on long run days. My gluts and hamstrings are sore...so will take it easier today.

    My goal is working on relaxing during my runs....I feel that during some of my runs, not able to relax. Also trying to run at least 3 times per week, and strength train 2 times per week. I would like to do more running but my job gets in my way.

    @shanaber : Thanks for the link to purchase some running socks. I discovered that there are a lot of races in our area that I didn't know existed.:smile:

    @ WhatMeRunning: Your discussion regarding aging and VO2 max is very interesting. There is a lot of information there and I want to re-read it a couple of times. What is LT, by the way?

    I started running again after the age of 50 and was so surprised by how quickly my level of fitness improved after just a few weeks of consistently running. The way I measure it (fitness) is to time how quickly my heart rate returns to a resting rate after running the same distance at the same pace (approx)., somewhat quantitative, and qualitatively how I feel after a run, ie. could I have run longer at the same effort, was I incredibly fatigued afterward?, etc. I want to add that I only run with a heart rate monitor and stopwatch (the stopwatch I added a few months ago). To try to increase my speed, I have been pushing myself on the treadmill (rolling hills). Last night I averaged 91% HRmax x 40 minutes

    My next half is in October. I have never run it but heard that there is a large hill at the end of the race, and I want to be ready for it (pretty stoked for the challenge).
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
    edited July 2016
    @MNLittleFinn - Oddly enough, one of the things that really prompted me to start running these hard type intervals was that it was what triggered new readings for Lactate Threshold and VO2Max on my Garmin. It started with a 5k that I ran above my LT and pushed the whole way through. I also noticed that each time I ran at such efforts I would get a new reading as I kept honing in on these a bit more. At this point I am regularly getting 164-165 bpm as my LT which from feel and repeated efforts seems accurate. My Garmin has an odd VO2Max being reported though which I am not sure is correct. It is currently saying 39. But using a formula based on my max HR (MHR) and Resting HR (RHR) to estimate VO2Max I get:
    VO2 max = 15.3 x (MHR/RHR) = 15.3 x (184/48) = 58.65

    Quite a difference.

    From the Jack Daniels tables spreadsheet (which I swear by generally) it shows my VDOT as 31 which is closer to the Garmin VO2Max, so that is probably the cause for the gap and the Garmin reported VO2Max may actually be VDOT, which are two different things.

    What I do know for sure is my running efficiency needs to improve for sure. Although I've known that since I started. :smile:

    So, the reason I said all this is that I was unable to really get into accurate measurements of these numbers until I ran hard. Trying to estimate it by my easier runs was not at all accurate. I found that I can/should be able to push myself on distance harder than I can actually do, and it's not because these estimates are necessarily so far off, it's because of factors like being an inefficient runner, therefore taking more strength/endurance, etc. But if I build on these then those estimated times should become more realistic. So in short, I agree with the others, your numbers are off and probably just because you don't have accurate high end HR data to base these on. That doesn't mean you should run out and do maximal effort though if you body is not ready for it. But pushing your LT pace regularly on long tempo runs is a great way to start, and push yourself until you truly can't make your target distance and at that point you can be sure that you exceeded it and therefore can know your ceiling is below that.

    Just some rambling thoughts.
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
    edited July 2016
    @WhatMeRunning I do one speed workout a week (tempo or cruise intervals) during normal training, that might go up to 2 a week this next cycle, unless I dedicate 1 day to hill repeats, then I'll keep it at 1, so I have the recovery time between hard workouts.

    got any idea where to find better idea of max HR? unfortunately I can't get a stress test done where I live. My normal resting HR is like 57, which is down 20 bpm from before I started running in February.
  • 5512bf
    5512bf Posts: 389 Member
    Yeah, I was thinking that the zones were off....and I actually had upped them because they always seemed too low before, based on effort.

    I'm actually looking at getting tested....not easy where I am, since I'm in the middle of nowhere, though I am looking for somewhere that's in the cities for me to do it. I'm thinking that my Max HR is a bunch higher than the whole 220-age thing, that would have me at a max HR of like 187, and I obviously passed that.

    Where can I look to get a better idea of max HR?

    Edit: The only places around here that do stress tests are the hospitals/clinics, and they only do them for people who have symptoms of cardiac conditions....I have asked before

    My trainer does mine, cost $80 and takes about 45-60 minutes and by the end you want to puke and die. I think level 7 or 8 is where I said enough, the treadmill was at 9.0 and the incline was at 10 and my HR was 197. He has a masters in sports science so I'm comfortable that he knows what he is doing. He takes a blood sample at each interval of the test then provides you with your training zones and what not. I'm 43, so by using those tables based on age my max should be 177. My average HR for my last HM was 166 with a peak of 194. On seriously hard intervals like 10x800's it's not uncommon for me to get to 200.

    here is a link to a method which fairly closely matched my data the first time I did it and did the actual test
    http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/joe-friel-s-quick-guide-to-setting-zones
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
    Ohhim wrote: »
    I suppose one thing this book made me consider about aging is looking back at people new here at MFP, or even when I was new here. The motivation may be temporary at first, but some come here (or return) saying "I hope to make long term health changes that I can apply for the rest of my life". And that's the key for diet, right? Just because you turn 70 doesn't mean you should start eating more pizza delivery because it's easier than cooking, right? Well, the same should be said of exercising, I suppose.

    For me, I've found speedwork works like a crash diet. I can add it to a 50 mile/week training cycle for bits of time (2-3 months leading up to a marathon), but I notice that if I try to sustain it, running becomes less fun, my weekly mileage drops pretty substantially, I'm less motivated to bike as well, and my weight starts inching up. Given that I'm pretty awful at adjusting my diet down when my workout totals drop, I've come to the conclusion that outside of training leading up to my A races, I'm better off just cutting out the non-fun running, keeping my mileage/time up, and the weight related time benefits (I've seen about 2 minutes/pound lost at marathons) usually trumps the extra squeeked out minutes from better fitness.

    Once I get closer to Chicago in October, as I'd like to inch under the 3 hour mark (given the flat course) I'll be back up to 2-3 faster sessions/week, but for now, I'm totally ok just slogging it out for a few extra miles at a comfortable pace so I can enjoy some dessert, and not feel like I'm hoping for death doing threshold pace runs in the summer Florida heat/humidity. I may re-evaluate things once my BMI get closer to the magical 21 mark (and I lose the ability to just get faster from keeping up my running and losing weight), or if Boston becomes a transcendental experience that I feel the need to repeat every year and slow down when older, but as long as I'm still above that mark (and have about 15 more pounds to lose on top of the 100 so far), LSD is definitely the answer for me.

    So here's the thing about speed work, and this conforms what @Ohhim is saying above. Speedwork (being defined as reps at or near VO2Max) will only serve as a positive when you perform them for a short metacycle. In English, only do them once or at most twice a week for at most 5 or 6 weeks just before your key race. Do too much speedwork and it will begin to tax you. This article explains it better:

    http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/when-speedwork-sabotages-your-gains
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member

    It was big time hot this morning even at 5:30 (what did you think @stoshew71 ) 75F and 85% humidity but I walked outside and when UGH! Skip has 8 on her plan for tomorrow so I just took it nice and easy. My first mile was 11:37 that kind of easy :smiley:

    Skip is headed for Florida for 2 weeks and just texted me what is packed.. 6 pair running shorts, 5 running bras, 7 pair running socks, 4 running tanks (momma I need more tanks), 1 running tee shirt, 2 pair running shoes, 2 bathing suits. end of text. I sent back ... bs on the tanks ... but okay .... real clothes? reply "oh yeah I'll get to that stuff" :heart:

    They are making me work today, so I'll be back to read everything later.


    @skippygirlsmom I haven't ran yet today. I was thinking about getting 2 or 3 miles in this morning, but after last night's horrible event, I elected to sleep in. Instead, the Pounders are going to Wheeler Wildlife Preserve tonight to run. The official start time is 10:00 pm for 7-10 miles. Some of us need more so we are starting sooner. I'm actually going to get there at 7 and meet Ryan Harbough and start my miles since i plan to get in at least 15. Afterwards we are supposed to head on over to Waffle House.


  • lps1dragonfly
    lps1dragonfly Posts: 111 Member
    Question: What do you do to cross-train with your running? I'm looking for ideas to add to my book of tips as I like variety and would love to pick your running brains. :smiley:

    A follow-up question: Do you run every day, or skip a day and cross-train the days you don't run?

    I ask, but there's so much literature out there that says that running every day isn't good or yes, do run everyday.
    Personally, I run 5 times a week and try to do something different on weekends. It's the "something different" that tends to mess me up. Lately it's been yoga, but I feel I need more strength training as the yoga moves I do are more therapeutic/restorative.

    you and I are kinda in the same place. I love my yoga and body weight stuff from my Sworkit app. I will be doing my first 5K ever in September! I am using the C25K app for my running which goes in a 3 runs a week schedule. So I try to do full body workouts or core strength on my non run days and then when I do run I tend to do a few extra minutes of yoga. I try to do yoga everyday. ***Note: I am new to running and have no training or trainer, I'm just doing this for me and I'm just listening closely to my body's cues.
  • 5512bf
    5512bf Posts: 389 Member
    Stoshew71 wrote: »

    So here's the thing about speed work, and this conforms what @Ohhim is saying above. Speedwork (being defined as reps at or near VO2Max) will only serve as a positive when you perform them for a short metacycle. In English, only do them once or at most twice a week for at most 5 or 6 weeks just before your key race. Do too much speedwork and it will begin to tax you. This article explains it better:

    http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/when-speedwork-sabotages-your-gains

    Totally agree with this. Leading up to my current training plan I did nearly 4 months of 40-55 miles a week base building with ZERO vo2max work and set a 5 minute PR in a HM and set a new 10k PR in an 8 mile tempo run. ( i rarely race 10k's so this wasn't a surprise)

    Of my current plan I've counted 6 total speed sessions of 600m-1600m in the final mesocycle with the last 3x1600 only 10 days out from the marathon. This plan will have me do over 1100 miles in 18 weeks with a total 57 miles (which includes warmup and cooldowns of at least 2 miles each) of speedwork. Everything else is easy, tempo's or pace miles.

  • mbaker566
    mbaker566 Posts: 11,234 Member
    Question: What do you do to cross-train with your running? I'm looking for ideas to add to my book of tips as I like variety and would love to pick your running brains. :smiley:

    A follow-up question: Do you run every day, or skip a day and cross-train the days you don't run?

    I ask, but there's so much literature out there that says that running every day isn't good or yes, do run everyday.
    Personally, I run 5 times a week and try to do something different on weekends. It's the "something different" that tends to mess me up. Lately it's been yoga, but I feel I need more strength training as the yoga moves I do are more therapeutic/restorative.

    you and I are kinda in the same place. I love my yoga and body weight stuff from my Sworkit app. I will be doing my first 5K ever in September! I am using the C25K app for my running which goes in a 3 runs a week schedule. So I try to do full body workouts or core strength on my non run days and then when I do run I tend to do a few extra minutes of yoga. I try to do yoga everyday. ***Note: I am new to running and have no training or trainer, I'm just doing this for me and I'm just listening closely to my body's cues.

    i also do (aerial) yoga on my days off. i teach it on weds, go to an open gym on fridays in summer, and have a hammock hung at home. it helps a lot.
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
    ereck44 wrote: »
    Your discussion regarding aging and VO2 max is very interesting. There is a lot of information there and I want to re-read it a couple of times. What is LT, by the way?
    I should probably clarify that while this started about VO2Max because I was looking into adding more VO2Max workouts based on my own personal running background and present abilities. In truth the blog and book I am discussing is about a more holistic view of fitness for runners, cyclers, swimmers, triathletes as they age. It just so happens that the thing that gets stressed a bit is VO2Max because it is what many endurance athletes have to somewhat focus less on for endurance, and most forsake altogether as they age. :smile:

    As for LT, it is Lactate Threshold, which is the effort at which the accumulation of lactate from exercising reaches the threshold that the uptake of lactate for energy by the muscles is exceeded causing it to accumulate in the muscle faster than it is consumed, which results (from further processes) in fatigue. One measure of it, as you can infer from a few prior posts, is that LT should be the effort you can maintain for 1 hour before hitting fatigue and unable to continue. You can get your estimated LT based on race times. You can also be tested for it, but that is not something many do save for competitive level athletes.
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
    got any idea where to find better idea of max HR?
    A test would be best, but I have never done that myself!:lol: You can also do tests on your own by exercising at maximal effort for a period of time and seeing what your HR is when you can absolutely no longer continue.

    In my case I have estimated mine by all of the data I have accumulated from prior races, training times at various efforts, and plugging it all into the Jack Daniels training tables spreadsheet I downloaded from here:
    http://www.electricblues.com/html/runpro.html

    After putting in my known info, age, resting HR and race times I started to get an idea of what I should be capable of at other distances, but it never seemed to add up. As I focused on shorter distances (easier to repeat more often) I noticed that things were still a bit off in terms of where the spreadsheet had my LT and maximal 100% effort at. I was able to get that to finally add up by modifying my max HR upwards to 184 from the 180 I previously had. Since doing that the paces line up with observed HR/efforts for each distance very well. So based on that I estimate my max HR to be 184 because of all that. But it took me a lot of time to gather enough data and become familiar enough with what I really was capable of at each distance and what my efforts/pace at those distances were, so that I could make it all line up. Not sure if this helps, as it could actually lead you astray, but it is what worked for me.
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
    Stoshew71 wrote: »
    Ohhim wrote: »
    I suppose one thing this book made me consider about aging is looking back at people new here at MFP, or even when I was new here. The motivation may be temporary at first, but some come here (or return) saying "I hope to make long term health changes that I can apply for the rest of my life". And that's the key for diet, right? Just because you turn 70 doesn't mean you should start eating more pizza delivery because it's easier than cooking, right? Well, the same should be said of exercising, I suppose.

    For me, I've found speedwork works like a crash diet. I can add it to a 50 mile/week training cycle for bits of time (2-3 months leading up to a marathon), but I notice that if I try to sustain it, running becomes less fun, my weekly mileage drops pretty substantially, I'm less motivated to bike as well, and my weight starts inching up. Given that I'm pretty awful at adjusting my diet down when my workout totals drop, I've come to the conclusion that outside of training leading up to my A races, I'm better off just cutting out the non-fun running, keeping my mileage/time up, and the weight related time benefits (I've seen about 2 minutes/pound lost at marathons) usually trumps the extra squeeked out minutes from better fitness.

    Once I get closer to Chicago in October, as I'd like to inch under the 3 hour mark (given the flat course) I'll be back up to 2-3 faster sessions/week, but for now, I'm totally ok just slogging it out for a few extra miles at a comfortable pace so I can enjoy some dessert, and not feel like I'm hoping for death doing threshold pace runs in the summer Florida heat/humidity. I may re-evaluate things once my BMI get closer to the magical 21 mark (and I lose the ability to just get faster from keeping up my running and losing weight), or if Boston becomes a transcendental experience that I feel the need to repeat every year and slow down when older, but as long as I'm still above that mark (and have about 15 more pounds to lose on top of the 100 so far), LSD is definitely the answer for me.

    So here's the thing about speed work, and this conforms what @Ohhim is saying above. Speedwork (being defined as reps at or near VO2Max) will only serve as a positive when you perform them for a short metacycle. In English, only do them once or at most twice a week for at most 5 or 6 weeks just before your key race. Do too much speedwork and it will begin to tax you. This article explains it better:

    http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/when-speedwork-sabotages-your-gains
    Thanks for reminding me of that. I do recall reading that before. :smile:
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
    @Stoshew71 - Since I had not yet been able to offer any insight into HOW this book might recommend integrating such speedwork sessions and when, I thought I would share this thing that I read, linked from one of his blog posts or perhaps a search I did. On the one hand, he tries to make it clear that there is not a "template" for all, but it may show an idea of how he may describe integrating these workouts later on in this book.

    http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/periodization-and-mixed-training
  • skippygirlsmom
    skippygirlsmom Posts: 4,433 Member
    @stoshew71 I did see where the Pounders were going on a field trip. Sounds like fun. I played landscaper last night and I agree it was way hot last night for some reason. Like the new shorts.
    @5beautifuldays I agree the heat as been crazy
    @kristinegift I LOVE THAT HAT!!!! I love talking Jersey with Stan too, I really miss home...not the cost of living and certainly not the winter, but I miss my friends/family and the BEACH. In the summer Skip and I would eat from one of the Seaside boardwalk to the other. Great food!
    @tattooeddolphingirl78 good luck in your 5K!!!
    @5512bf 72 laps, I'd throw up. I love your list of runs, such great variety.

    I've also enjoyed reading all the "technical" running stuff the past few days. Lots goes over my head, but it's interesting. It interests me more honestly for Skip especially things about speed work etc. Very interesting.
  • greenolivetree
    greenolivetree Posts: 1,282 Member
    July 1 - 5 mile run with 3 miles of hills....10 min pilates
    July 2 - 2 mi "trail running fail".....4 miles real running :-p
    July 3 - 2.5 mi hard run
    July 4 - Rest day
    July 5 - 3 mi easy run....1.5 mi walk with sprinting intervals....25 min strength/pilates/stretching
    July 6 - 4 mi run
    July 7 - 30 min indoor cardio, 30 min strength/pilates
    July 8 - 6 mile run with 2 miles of hill repeats
    26 miles of 60 (all bonus miles go to our invalids)

    Had a great run today! I'm always glad I ran but rarely feel it was great. It was 72 with 74% humidity and I swear it felt darn near chilly when I stepped out. LOL We had rain coming and it just felt different outside. And my breathing was better than it's been in 10-14 days. It was like I had a new set of lungs :-D

    1.25 warmup with gradual decline. 2 miles of 6 hill repeats. I shortened that other hill to be .15 mi up, 39 ft, 4.5% incline. After that I ran a little further downhill and then the way home was gradual incline. 329ft total elevation. Managed to run my last mile in 8:38 but it was flat. My glutes were burning after the hills but I apparently had some energy left.

    @ceciliaslater Way to go!

    Welcome to the group @chante_04 :)

    @lporter229 I'm opposite.....Strava gives me more elevation than Garmin. I always feel Garmin is wrong. But I think they are both just good estimates anyway, neither completely accurate.
  • Elise4270
    Elise4270 Posts: 8,375 Member
    edited July 2016

    1.5 miles of 0 mile goal completed. Even though I'm now capable of running, I am not changing my mileage goal of 0 for the month, as I want to continue to encourage smart progress and healing rather than challenging myself to meet specific mileage.

    Great run! So nice to see it!

    I was already thinking how to plan my August miles, and setting a goal in my head. I figure if I just wing it, I'll run everyday and try to make up for lost time. I'll keep in mind smart progress!

    August 1st I should get to ditch the crutches. So I shouldn't be setting any expectations..