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'The Obesity Code: Unlocking the Secrets of Weight Loss' by Jason Fung
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stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »CorneliusPhoton wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »Keto is a form of CICO.
I thought Keto was a method of eating specific macros that forces the body to burn fat as fuel rather than carbs. Regardless of the number of calories.
Fat loss is never regardless of calories.
From what I know from keto groups and also personally, I'd say that for a substantial part of people who are on keto , weight loss is not their primary consideration. A lot of people are healing their type 2 diabetes and/or insulin resistance with this. For those people its a godsend. Don't scoff.
You can't heal diabetes.
Some people with type 2 diabetes respond so well to a low carb diet that they are functionally in remission, though. They can ditch their meds and drop down to much less frequent monitoring. Of course it comes back if they start eating a lot of carbs again, but I can understand why many would feel like they were cured...
I have diabetes and I don't do low carb, nor has my Dr ever told me to. My last A1C tests were 6.2, 6.4, 6.4 and 7.4
My Dr said lose weight, get active.
I eat plenty of carbs and have lost about 70 pounds in 5 months. My last two A1C tests were 5.4 and 5.5
Low Carb is NOT necessary for all diabetics. I am not on any Meds either. My liver had fatty deposits back in January..not now..my last tests were great..blood pressure great..low cholesterol..10 -
susanaemendez wrote: »I have just started reading a book written by physician Jason Fong called "The Obesity Code". While it is quite fascinating, it completely goes against everything I thought I knew about losing weight. Has anyone read this book? How do you feel about his analysis? I'm not entirely sure that I want to change my approach to weight loss based on this book alone, but it does bring up some interesting points about "calories in vs calories out".
I read and white liked the book. I'm having some success doing IF twice a week on non consecutive days.
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susanaemendez wrote: »I have just started reading a book written by physician Jason Fong called "The Obesity Code". While it is quite fascinating, it completely goes against everything I thought I knew about losing weight. Has anyone read this book? How do you feel about his analysis? I'm not entirely sure that I want to change my approach to weight loss based on this book alone, but it does bring up some interesting points about "calories in vs calories out".
I read and white liked the book. I'm having some success doing IF twice a week on non consecutive days.
* quite liked1 -
I think the "Secret" is just to exercise some self discipline.
MFP helps me, I can see that I'm getting enough food to be on my target, with my logging. So when I feel a little hungry I'm reassured that, no, I'm not starving. Its OK to be hungry some. And I'm on track.
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health.harvard.edu/heart-health/latest-thinking-on-a-cardioprotective-diet
At the end of this Harvard article it talks about the difference between good and not so good carbs that may be of interest to those who find eating carbs to be a health concern that I found as a byproduct of studying Ashwagandha benefits tonight.1 -
Jason Fung has a fantastic blog called Intensive dietary Management. More importantly, he walks the walk with real life patients, making a living reversing their diabetes and obesity (along with being a nephrologist). Real life results with lots of patients is the real litmus test.3
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I have zero interest in reading it, and here's why: every six months some author comes out with a new spin on what people already know or think about weight loss. Or, they "discover" some magical new solution and are promoting it. The library of books on weight loss "secrets" has been growing steadily over the past few decades -- yet as a society we're fatter than ever. Fung's "secret" seems to be: blame your hormones -- blame "insulin resistance". Get on the right regime (intermittent fasting) and it will put those doggone hormones in their place (we've heard all this before).
No matter what "solution" you follow, you're going to lose some weight. I suspect this is because by following a regime you're attending more to your weight and your diet and your exercise, and this increased mindfulness leads you to eat less and move more. Once you start losing you're motivated to lose more. At least some people are. Those who aren't and can't discipline themselves might benefit from working with a counselor or coach.
I can tell you what my problem is with food, and it's not hormones: I like food, I learned early on to self soothe my loneliness and anxiety with food, and I don't have great skills for impulse and portion control. None of those have anything to do with insulin resistance, hormones, or intermittent fasting.
Good luck to those who follow Dr. Fung's advice -- I'm sure it will help some of them, but the big question is: where will they be five years from now? Ten years from now? My guess is: most will be at least as fat as they are now because they've bought into a chemical/biological solution for what (except for those who genuinely have biochemical disorders that interfere with their metabolisms) is essentially a behavioral problem.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2013/04/obesity_in_america_cdc_releases_gif_of_epidemic_over_time.html16 -
I have zero interest in reading it, and here's why: every six months some author comes out with a new spin on what people already know or think about weight loss. Or, they "discover" some magical new solution and are promoting it. The library of books on weight loss "secrets" has been growing steadily over the past few decades -- yet as a society we're fatter than ever. Fung's "secret" seems to be: blame your hormones -- blame "insulin resistance". Get on the right regime (intermittent fasting) and it will put those doggone hormones in their place (we've heard all this before).
No matter what "solution" you follow, you're going to lose some weight. I suspect this is because by following a regime you're attending more to your weight and your diet and your exercise, and this increased mindfulness leads you to eat less and move more. Once you start losing you're motivated to lose more. At least some people are. Those who aren't and can't discipline themselves might benefit from working with a counselor or coach.
I can tell you what my problem is with food, and it's not hormones: I like food, I learned early on to self soothe my loneliness and anxiety with food, and I don't have great skills for impulse and portion control. None of those have anything to do with insulin resistance, hormones, or intermittent fasting.
Good luck to those who follow Dr. Fung's advice -- I'm sure it will help some of them, but the big question is: where will they be five years from now? Ten years from now? My guess is: most will be at least as fat as they are now because they've bought into a chemical/biological solution for what (except for those who genuinely have biochemical disorders that interfere with their metabolisms) is essentially a behavioral problem.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2013/04/obesity_in_america_cdc_releases_gif_of_epidemic_over_time.html
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I have zero interest in reading it, and here's why: every six months some author comes out with a new spin on what people already know or think about weight loss. Or, they "discover" some magical new solution and are promoting it. The library of books on weight loss "secrets" has been growing steadily over the past few decades -- yet as a society we're fatter than ever. Fung's "secret" seems to be: blame your hormones -- blame "insulin resistance". Get on the right regime (intermittent fasting) and it will put those doggone hormones in their place (we've heard all this before).
No matter what "solution" you follow, you're going to lose some weight. I suspect this is because by following a regime you're attending more to your weight and your diet and your exercise, and this increased mindfulness leads you to eat less and move more. Once you start losing you're motivated to lose more. At least some people are. Those who aren't and can't discipline themselves might benefit from working with a counselor or coach.
I can tell you what my problem is with food, and it's not hormones: I like food, I learned early on to self soothe my loneliness and anxiety with food, and I don't have great skills for impulse and portion control. None of those have anything to do with insulin resistance, hormones, or intermittent fasting.
Good luck to those who follow Dr. Fung's advice -- I'm sure it will help some of them, but the big question is: where will they be five years from now? Ten years from now? My guess is: most will be at least as fat as they are now because they've bought into a chemical/biological solution for what (except for those who genuinely have biochemical disorders that interfere with their metabolisms) is essentially a behavioral problem.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2013/04/obesity_in_america_cdc_releases_gif_of_epidemic_over_time.html
Hey , fair enough, people's interests are their interests. Nothing in life is mandatory reading. And people who are successful in this field don't really care about blaming anybody, and are instead focused on what works for real-life actual patients.
Whether or not you like what Fung has to say or not, his impact on the world of health is not limited to being an internet warrior posting links or gif's, nor is his impact limited to being that of an author.
If you find it interesting (and people have a variety of interests so I cannot assume either way), you can instead visit his clinic where he takes former diabetics, and turns them into strange people who no longer seem to need oral meds or insulin and who have normal fasting levels of glucose and normal HbA1c. aka. non-diabetics. And he follows these patients and their stable conditions for years (and of course, stability is boring, so that may not be very interesting).
His methods are not special or unique. These methods are all over the literature and many successful physicians use them. (So really, you can conveniently visit the clinic of any LCHF/IF-promoting/lifestyle-preventative-minded physician who likes to read things on pubmed and apply them).7 -
FYI these people will never be "non-diabetics".geneticexpectations wrote: »... you can instead visit his clinic where he takes former diabetics, and turns them into strange people who no longer seem to need oral meds or insulin and who have normal fasting levels of glucose and normal HbA1c. aka. non-diabetics. And he follows these patients and their stable conditions for years (and of course, stability is boring, so that may not be very interesting).
Like many of Fung's patients, I took myself from an HbA1c of over 12% (ie: EXTREMELY diabetic) to HbA1c's in 5.2-5.4% (normal, non-diabetic) range, and have maintained those for 6+ years.
But I'm still VERY diabetic. I just control it. I eat lower-carbohydrate/high-fat and exercise regularly.
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albertabeefy wrote: »
FYI these people will never be "non-diabetics".geneticexpectations wrote: »... you can instead visit his clinic where he takes former diabetics, and turns them into strange people who no longer seem to need oral meds or insulin and who have normal fasting levels of glucose and normal HbA1c. aka. non-diabetics. And he follows these patients and their stable conditions for years (and of course, stability is boring, so that may not be very interesting).
Like many of Fung's patients, I took myself from an HbA1c of over 12% (ie: EXTREMELY diabetic) to HbA1c's in 5.2-5.4% (normal, non-diabetic) range, and have maintained those for 6+ years.
But I'm still VERY diabetic. I just control it. I eat lower-carbohydrate/high-fat and exercise regularly.
Exactly. Well said.0 -
albertabeefy wrote: »
FYI these people will never be "non-diabetics".geneticexpectations wrote: »... you can instead visit his clinic where he takes former diabetics, and turns them into strange people who no longer seem to need oral meds or insulin and who have normal fasting levels of glucose and normal HbA1c. aka. non-diabetics. And he follows these patients and their stable conditions for years (and of course, stability is boring, so that may not be very interesting).
Like many of Fung's patients, I took myself from an HbA1c of over 12% (ie: EXTREMELY diabetic) to HbA1c's in 5.2-5.4% (normal, non-diabetic) range, and have maintained those for 6+ years.
But I'm still VERY diabetic. I just control it. I eat lower-carbohydrate/high-fat and exercise regularly.
Exactly. Well said.
Guys you are saying an obese person will still VERY obese after they reduce down to a BMI of 25. I don't agree.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »albertabeefy wrote: »
FYI these people will never be "non-diabetics".geneticexpectations wrote: »... you can instead visit his clinic where he takes former diabetics, and turns them into strange people who no longer seem to need oral meds or insulin and who have normal fasting levels of glucose and normal HbA1c. aka. non-diabetics. And he follows these patients and their stable conditions for years (and of course, stability is boring, so that may not be very interesting).
Like many of Fung's patients, I took myself from an HbA1c of over 12% (ie: EXTREMELY diabetic) to HbA1c's in 5.2-5.4% (normal, non-diabetic) range, and have maintained those for 6+ years.
But I'm still VERY diabetic. I just control it. I eat lower-carbohydrate/high-fat and exercise regularly.
Exactly. Well said.
Guys you are saying an obese person will still VERY obese after they reduce down to a BMI of 25. I don't agree.
That's not what I meant to agree with. A diabetic person's health will be improved with a LCHF diet by means of controlling BG through carb intake. Following a LCHF diet is often enough to reverse diabetes without weight loss.
It's like stepping on the brakes in a car. If you take your foot off the brake (eat high carb) you'll start to move again (BG goes up).0 -
So ... did anyone read the book or listen to the pod cast interview with Dr Jason Jong?1
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Three years ago I lost 60lbs just logging calories and making sure I kept the them below the energy I was burning. It worked out well - I ate whatever I wanted I just had to make choices. Pizza one day meant the next day I had to be lower cal or else that scale was going back up. The past year my logging got a bit sloppy and the scale started going back up too much for my liking. I tried going back to the old formula for me - but I found it to be harder this time. For the first time I felt hungry a lot and the scale was not moving much. So I decided to give LCHF a try two months ago. Have dropped 21 lbs - now I know I tend to retain a lot of water when I eat carbs - so a fair part of that drop was water - but to me who cares - its still weight I was carrying around and it made me uncomfortable. So now its gone. I have found it very easy to follow mostly because I prepare a lot of food so I dont eat the same things. I find that outside of a slice pizza or plate of pasta once in a while I dont miss the carbs. For me the absolute best part is that I do not get as hungry as I use to. I would sit at work and starve by 10am and eat a big lunch - now I eat lunch only because I know I should eat something. As a result I dont eat as much when I do eat. I am never hungry and I always feel good. I have stopped letting my stomach rule my actions. So for me it works. I know its not for everyone. Oh by the way - my muscle mass is very good - as a matter of fact because I lost the bloat and some fat it actually looks like I gained mass. I know I haven't - but I am not really trying to either at this point. People get so hung up this subject - so really its whatever works best for you. This is not hard stuff - yes you need to eat fewer calories than you burn to lose weight. Many different ways to get there. If you work out like crazy - sure you can have more carbs than someone who doesn't. But again - there are many different ways to get to the end result - the one thing that they have in common is that it involves discipline. Without that - the odds of success are much smaller.3
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People get so hung up this subject - so really its whatever works best for you. This is not hard stuff - yes you need to eat fewer calories than you burn to lose weight. Many different ways to get there. If you work out like crazy - sure you can have more carbs than someone who doesn't. But again - there are many different ways to get to the end result - the one thing that they have in common is that it involves discipline. Without that - the odds of success are much smaller.
I agree with you.
People get hung up because some (like Fung) insist LCHF is intrinsically better and eating in other ways (even quite healthful, nutrition-conscious ways or like in the Blue Zones) is bad for you. Or because (with Fung specifically) he is trying to set himself up as diet guru selling a program to "explain" obesity when what he advocates isn't necessary to lose weight (might it help his patients in the right conditions? sure -- that's different from trying to set himself up as a diet guru, which makes him up there with Dr. Oz).
If your point is simply that low carb is one workable way to lose weight and that it will be beneficial/preferable to some due to a number of reasons, one that is often reported being hunger, then I don't think anyone would disagree or "get hung up." I certainly agree, and have played around with carb amounts at times. I think many people don't have perceived "hunger" as their reason for struggling with weight loss/maintenance -- I don't (and for me carbs with fiber tend to be more filling than fat) -- but I may finally try low carbing next year as I need more motivation and treating it as an experiment where I'm comparing how I feel on different ways of eating may get me the impetus to follow through on something involving a deficit.
Here's something from a low LC proponent (who also agrees that other diets work better for some others) which explains why LC evangelism in general tends to turn me off even though I think low carbing is fine and works well for many: http://caloriesproper.com/keto-myths-facts/
"ALL OF THE LONGEST LIVING PEOPLE EAT CARBS. If carbs were intrinsically harmful, this wouldn’t be true. Nowhere near it, actually. The Blue Zones would be the Black Death Zones. Humans wouldn’t exist.
Non-food contributors to MetS: obesity, sedentary lifestyle, circadian arrhythmia, shift work, crappy sleep, too much artificial light, etc....
Fact: low carb helps manage blood glucose levels with fewer meds in people with IR. It’s actually quite good at that. But the best “cures” are basically weight loss and/or exercise. “Cure” = can eat a potato w/o hyperglycemia."4 -
Sassie11_11 wrote: »I'm not sure if you are on facebook and I don't know how to load just the video here but Stephanie Dodier did a live interview with Dr Jason Fong, it was very informative. Here is the link to her page:
https://www.facebook.com/StephanieDodiernutrition
I am on a Keto diet. CICO does not work for me. I like the attitude of Dr Fong which is to trust your own body. Our bodies communicate with us all the time. That resonates with me. And it works!
if you are losing weight, then CICO works for you3 -
CorneliusPhoton wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »CorneliusPhoton wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »Keto is a form of CICO.
I thought Keto was a method of eating specific macros that forces the body to burn fat as fuel rather than carbs. Regardless of the number of calories.
Fat loss is never regardless of calories.
My previous quote was questioning that "keto is a form of CICO." Can't you gain fat while eating keto if you eat too many calories? And aren't you still burning fat as fuel in a keto calorie surplus? Is Keto = CICO?
run an experiment on yourself. Do Keto and eat at 500 daily calories over maintenance for three months and see what happens...3 -
Sassie11_11 wrote: »I'm not sure if you are on facebook and I don't know how to load just the video here but Stephanie Dodier did a live interview with Dr Jason Fong, it was very informative. Here is the link to her page:
https://www.facebook.com/StephanieDodiernutrition
I am on a Keto diet. CICO does not work for me. I like the attitude of Dr Fong which is to trust your own body. Our bodies communicate with us all the time. That resonates with me. And it works!
Like many people, you are confusing matters by considering CICO as a "diet" rather than the driving principle behind all successful weight loss diets.
It's like saying "I can take 6 carrots and evenly divide them into three portions of two, but mathematics does not work for me."2
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