About Love. And all that stuff.
DetroitDarin
Posts: 955 Member
in Chit-Chat
Within an adult man-woman relationship: If love is not really-good, it's not love. My favourite quote about love - and this might cost my man-card - but my favourite line is from the movie Midnight in Paris - this scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YEstLmzyvI
Within love - within relationships - the number one killer is compromise. Compromise ensures neither the man nor the woman get what they need - they settle for less. In the little aspects that's fine - things like where to eat dinner, what colour to pain the living room, etc. But in the bigger aspects compromise leads only to hurt and loneliness and unfulfilled wants and needs. Compromise says "Oh..I know you really enjoy a snuggle, but - that's not really me, so...you can just be next to me and hug this pillow okay?" or "I really don't like to hold your hand, so...how about I hold your hand for just the next hour?" - crap like that.
Love therefore should be stupidly-easy and should be the baseline for a successful relationship. Love should be the non-negotiable.
Signs the relationship is not love-based? If either of you ever say stuff like "...after everything I've done for you! THIS is how you treat me?"
Nope. that's not love. Love isn't selfish nor does love keep score.
If either says "Well, if you love me, you will (insert chore or task)!"
Love isn't tranasaction-based - love (affection, sex, etc) is not a currency.
Love is not "Do this to show me you love me" - love is "Because I love you I can't help but be a certain way around you; because I love you of course I am kind and thoughtful - but being kind and thoughtful is not necessarily love.
What do you think? I think I'm right - but I could be full of crap because that happens too - sometimes on a road trip where I have to literally spring out into the woods...search the forum for THAT story...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YEstLmzyvIWithin love - within relationships - the number one killer is compromise. Compromise ensures neither the man nor the woman get what they need - they settle for less. In the little aspects that's fine - things like where to eat dinner, what colour to pain the living room, etc. But in the bigger aspects compromise leads only to hurt and loneliness and unfulfilled wants and needs. Compromise says "Oh..I know you really enjoy a snuggle, but - that's not really me, so...you can just be next to me and hug this pillow okay?" or "I really don't like to hold your hand, so...how about I hold your hand for just the next hour?" - crap like that.
Love therefore should be stupidly-easy and should be the baseline for a successful relationship. Love should be the non-negotiable.
Signs the relationship is not love-based? If either of you ever say stuff like "...after everything I've done for you! THIS is how you treat me?"
Nope. that's not love. Love isn't selfish nor does love keep score.
If either says "Well, if you love me, you will (insert chore or task)!"
Love isn't tranasaction-based - love (affection, sex, etc) is not a currency.
Love is not "Do this to show me you love me" - love is "Because I love you I can't help but be a certain way around you; because I love you of course I am kind and thoughtful - but being kind and thoughtful is not necessarily love.
What do you think? I think I'm right - but I could be full of crap because that happens too - sometimes on a road trip where I have to literally spring out into the woods...search the forum for THAT story...
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I over-think a lot. Being inside my brain can be tiring. Thanks for reading - and your spot-on comments, Louise. 
Except you used the dreaded C-word. I think the best relationships - nobody has to compromise anything because we naturally love exactly what the other person offers. Make sense? 1 -
Louise1491 wrote: »Sounds like my last relationship. Lack of affection/contact.
Thats my marraige, right now. He is content with minimal contact (physical and emotional) and I NEED way more than he is giving. I am shown affection only when he wants to have sex...which isnt very often. Earlier in our relationship I compromised and was OK with sex being the main (nearly only) form of affection I was shown - mainly because it happened much more frequently. I wish that I would have been more cognizant of the true lack of affection earlier.
Other than the lack of affection....we have a nice life and I am generally happy.
I don't believe in divorce, so I have settled with the fact that I will be in a generally affection less marraige for the rest of my life (Im 33)...and that sucks.
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mka - painfully familiar. Having lived with an emotionally-unavailable woman for nearly 2 decades; I'm hypersensative to those things in prospective dates, etc. My breaking point involved a lot of things but one of the worst aspects for me was in effect, teaching my kids that Dad's SHOULD sleep on the couch most of the time. Was a terrible example - plus, showed I didn't value myself enough to stop calling my actual 'needs' 'wants'. By re-labeling what I absolutely NEED in a relationship simply a 'nice to have' or a 'want' I enabled what turned into just about emotional abuse via neglect (and direct abuse via words and actions). That scared me in terrible ways it's taken four years or so being away to find myself again. Withholding is cheating in my book - because she vowed to love, honor, and cherish - things she demonstrably cheated-me-out-of.
I admire your courage and dedication. I caution everyone to not avoid being kind to themselves, however. We - ourselves - is important because without love and kindness to ourselves we can't show those things to others because we don't know them. Does that make any sense?3 -
It does make sense! The thing is, I dont know if he truly understands that affection is a NEED for me...not a want or 'nice to have'. Its not a NEED for him. I try to be conscious of his needs, and meet them whenever its possible....I ask him regularly what else I can do to make him happy....ultimately I love him, and I want him to be happy.
But I deserve to be happy too....and when he asks me (for example since i just had a bday) what I want for my birthday and without thinking I blurt out "at least 5 minutes of non sexual attention each day".... well...that doesnt strike me as something a happy wife would say.2 -
Louise1491 wrote: »
It's a tough one, not feeling wanted can take a huge toll on your self esteem. I respect your belief in divorce but I personally couldn't do it.Louise1491 wrote: »Sounds like my last relationship. Lack of affection/contact.
Thats my marraige, right now. He is content with minimal contact (physical and emotional) and I NEED way more than he is giving. I am shown affection only when he wants to have sex...which isnt very often. Earlier in our relationship I compromised and was OK with sex being the main (nearly only) form of affection I was shown - mainly because it happened much more frequently. I wish that I would have been more cognizant of the true lack of affection earlier.
Other than the lack of affection....we have a nice life and I am generally happy.
I don't believe in divorce, so I have settled with the fact that I will be in a generally affection less marraige for the rest of my life (Im 33)...and that sucks.
Does he recognise that he's not doing those things? Is it just who he is?
If i point it out, he will recognize it. He will try to be more aware...but it lasts like 2 days, lol. It is just who he is.0 -
My ex didn't have the capacity to acknowledge my need. I don't fault her but she and I are impossible because she sees my needs as weakness; and degraded me over them. For my situation - and to the point of this thread - I think folks shouldn't have to try to change their core selves; My ex deserves a man who doesn't need or want physical, emotional attention; a guy who doesn't like to sleep close - or even touch during the night - because those things honestly distressed her. And vice-versa. I'm not trying to talk you into or out of anything @mkakids. I am really impressed by your resolve. It's a good thing.
@Louise1491 - We're saying pretty close to the same thing maybe? compromise within the functions of life? no issues. Compromise on the core of love? Red flags.1 -
Louise1491 wrote: »Sounds like my last relationship. Lack of affection/contact.
Thats my marraige, right now. He is content with minimal contact (physical and emotional) and I NEED way more than he is giving. I am shown affection only when he wants to have sex...which isnt very often. Earlier in our relationship I compromised and was OK with sex being the main (nearly only) form of affection I was shown - mainly because it happened much more frequently. I wish that I would have been more cognizant of the true lack of affection earlier.
Other than the lack of affection....we have a nice life and I am generally happy.
I don't believe in divorce, so I have settled with the fact that I will be in a generally affection less marraige for the rest of my life (Im 33)...and that sucks.
Sadly, this is kind of my marriage, too, except that I'm checked out. I've been very vocal about my needs and he's ignored them for years. I thought I could somehow make it work, but there's other behavior that's become intolerable. I think part of my "problem" is that I'm not willing to settle and give up on an awesome part of life.
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Louise1491 wrote: »Sounds like my last relationship. Lack of affection/contact.
Thats my marraige, right now. He is content with minimal contact (physical and emotional) and I NEED way more than he is giving. I am shown affection only when he wants to have sex...which isnt very often. Earlier in our relationship I compromised and was OK with sex being the main (nearly only) form of affection I was shown - mainly because it happened much more frequently. I wish that I would have been more cognizant of the true lack of affection earlier.
Other than the lack of affection....we have a nice life and I am generally happy.
I don't believe in divorce, so I have settled with the fact that I will be in a generally affection less marraige for the rest of my life (Im 33)...and that sucks.
Sadly, this is kind of my marriage, too, except that I'm checked out. I've been very vocal about my needs and he's ignored them for years. I thought I could somehow make it work, but there's other behavior that's become intolerable. I think part of my "problem" is that I'm not willing to settle and give up on an awesome part of life.
I had a feeling we were in more similar situations that just with the half marathons.
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I'm in that company too, but slightly different circumstances When my ex wasn't involved emotionally with me I suggest SHE find someone too - the open-marriage stuff. Honestly, I am not equipped to have to struggle through love - the core values and the core essence of love. If somebody doesn't easily find me attractive - as evidenced by how they are around me and with me - I can't sit there like the moon waiting for somebody to land on me. Not anymore. 1
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DetroitDarin wrote: » I over-think a lot. Being inside my brain can be tiring. Thanks for reading - and your spot-on comments, Louise. Except you used the dreaded C-word. I think the best relationships - nobody has to compromise anything because we naturally love exactly what the other person offers. Make sense?
I agree with this. I'm just not sure that most of us will actually have that kind of love. I know that I haven't. But I've been in love with people that I loved completely, faults and all... just never got to pursue those relationships... so I can't tell you how it would have ended (and it really broke my heart each time). And unfortunately, my current relationship is not one of those.
I'd wager that the probability that two people feel that strongly for each other is very slim. And that's why a lot of long term married people end up unhappy, IMO... or have to compromise a lot to make it work... or they go from relationship to relationship hoping for 'the one' but are unlikely to find it. Because it's extremely rare.
Those old couples who still love each other after 40 years are extremely lucky, I think.2 -
Those old couples who still love each other after 40 years are extremely lucky, I think.
I think so, too. I think a lot of other couples -- the ones that are only bored or a little unhappy -- treat their relationship like a business relationship.
I recognize that a relationship IS work. I just get involved with people that don't want to put the time in.0 -
I am going to wait for that kind of love, Franc, even if It means I stay alone. Because being lonely within a relationship is the worst kind of hell I can imagine. Or have experienced.8
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DetroitDarin wrote: »I am going to wait for that kind of love, Franc, even if It means I stay alone. Because being lonely within a relationship is the worst kind of hell I can imagine. Or have experienced.
I think it's great you're willing to wait for that, but it seems that for many, the fear of being alone is worse than settling or compromising.4 -
maybe your the problem in the relationship. sounds like you think you've done everything right and are the better person and the wife is a jerk incapable of "meeting your now defined "needs" who is an abusive (your words)who is responsible for screwing up your kids view of a marital relationship.
there is no perfect person out there. no sense wasting your time looking for the Hollywood marriage. doesn't exist. When you really love someone, your so called compromise isn't viewed as a compromise. its a gift you selflessly give to your spouse....maybe your purpose is to love this person.
think about your kids, who most of us truly unconditionally love - possibly the only people we unconditionally love. do we get pissy and feel "slighted" because they want us to play ball in the yard when we'd rather chill after a long days work? most would say no. we just know how much we love them and "how little time we have with them" and our joy comes in providing love not in feeling their love in return. this is really love. its not not keeping score and while you say literally in your original post this very fact you go on later absolutely stating that you keep score and now your unmet "wants are now viewed as unmet needs". sounds like score keeping.
now, if you are coming to the conclusion that you never loved your ex-wife and therefore just F'd up totally your decision to marry that person in the first place....well..ok. i guess i understand your view and maybe even agree.
there are two sides to every coin. just sayin.
*disclaimer, no offense was intended in this reply*6 -
"When you really love someone, your so called compromise isn't viewed as a compromise. its a gift you selflessly give to your spouse...."
- This- so well said6 -
Tomk652015 wrote: »maybe your the problem in the relationship. sounds like you think you've done everything right and are the better person and the wife is a jerk incapable of "meeting your now defined "needs" who is an abusive (your words)who is responsible for screwing up your kids view of a marital relationship.
there is no perfect person out there. no sense wasting your time looking for the Hollywood marriage. doesn't exist. When you really love someone, your so called compromise isn't viewed as a compromise. its a gift you selflessly give to your spouse....maybe your purpose is to love this person.
think about your kids, who most of us truly unconditionally love - possibly the only people we unconditionally love. do we get pissy and feel "slighted" because they want us to play ball in the yard when we'd rather chill after a long days work? most would say no. we just know how much we love them and "how little time we have with them" and our joy comes in providing love not in feeling their love in return. this is really love. its not not keeping score and while you say literally in your original post this very fact you go on later absolutely stating that you keep score and now your unmet "wants are now viewed as unmet needs". sounds like score keeping.
now, if you are coming to the conclusion that you never loved your ex-wife and therefore just F'd up totally your decision to marry that person in the first place....well..ok. i guess i understand your view and maybe even agree.
there are two sides to every coin. just sayin.
*disclaimer, no offense was intended in this reply*
Of course there are two sides. Doesnt mean one side isnt wrong. Yours is the only reply casting or looking for blame. Everyone else is talking differences.
I am a little disturbed to read somebody using love for kids as an example of what "real love is" in a man-woman/husband-wife relationship.0 -
DetroitDarin wrote: »I am going to wait for that kind of love, Franc, even if It means I stay alone. Because being lonely within a relationship is the worst kind of hell I can imagine. Or have experienced.
I'm with you so much lol. I just can't afford to be alone at this point, or I probably would.
That being said, I think it really depends on the person too. Some are naturally more selfish than others. I'm an introvert who REALLY likes being alone so I often wonder if I'm actually capable of keeping a long term relationship.. but again, I got in my relationships because it felt right at the time, not because I was ever crazy in love with the guy. Seems I only really fall for the guys I can't have.3 -
is love different depending on the object? are there varying definitions of love? or don't i understand whats disturbed you?
*edit* maybe so. have to think about that.0 -
Tomk652015 wrote: »is love different depending on the object? are there varying definitions of love? or don't i understand whats disturbed you?
*edit* maybe so. have to think about that.
Well yeah, physical attraction/intimacy is a big part of love between adults...0 -
Tomk652015 wrote: »is love different depending on the object? are there varying definitions of love? or don't i understand whats disturbed you?
*edit* maybe so. have to think about that.
Well yeah, physical attraction/intimacy is a big part of love between adults...
i really don't think so. i think they are totally separate. its like saying when you no longer look appealing to me, i cease to love you as much.
I think we confuse physical feelings with love all the time. how sad to think if i get in a car accident and am deformed or unable to "perform" my spouses love for me will decline.
now, its a big part of a relationship, but separate from "love" IMO.4 -
DetroitDarin wrote: »I am going to wait for that kind of love, Franc, even if It means I stay alone. Because being lonely within a relationship is the worst kind of hell I can imagine. Or have experienced.
This is where I am as well. It makes for a lonely life at times, but I just can't settle at this point in my life. I'm old enough and wise enough to know what I want, need and deserve. People translate that into looking for perfect, which is truly not what I am looking for. I am not perfect by any means and have no problem admitting my faults. I absolutely agree on your definition of compromise also. Of course with the day to day life things, there must be compromise, but as for who you are at your core, the only one who can change that is oneself. I want someone who loves me for me, for who I am on the inside and I want to feel the same about them.
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Tomk652015 wrote: »Tomk652015 wrote: »is love different depending on the object? are there varying definitions of love? or don't i understand whats disturbed you?
*edit* maybe so. have to think about that.
Well yeah, physical attraction/intimacy is a big part of love between adults...
i really don't think so. i think they are totally separate. its like saying when you no longer look appealing to me, i cease to love you as much.
I think we confuse physical feelings with love all the time. how sad to think if i get in a car accident and am deformed or unable to "perform" my spouses love for me will decline.
now, its a big part of a relationship, but separate from "love" IMO.
I don't mean physical attraction like 'I want to have sex with you right now'. But those butterflies that you feel when you look at someone... if you don't feel them, is it really love? Can you REALLY love someone who you are not attracted to? Love is what makes people beautiful... fit, fat, deformed... it doesn't matter if you really love them, you will love them no matter what they look like.
Ok so it's what I meant. And I suppose that if you take the intimacy part out, it's the same with children (how we love them and they're so beautiful to us).
Hmm. I'll have to think about this. I suppose that the main difference between love for children and love for someone else is the choice and expectations that come with it. I know that I let my kids get away with things that I would never tolerate from a man, for example, lol!0 -
Tomk652015 wrote: »Tomk652015 wrote: »is love different depending on the object? are there varying definitions of love? or don't i understand whats disturbed you?
*edit* maybe so. have to think about that.
Well yeah, physical attraction/intimacy is a big part of love between adults...
i really don't think so. i think they are totally separate. its like saying when you no longer look appealing to me, i cease to love you as much.
I think we confuse physical feelings with love all the time. how sad to think if i get in a car accident and am deformed or unable to "perform" my spouses love for me will decline.
now, its a big part of a relationship, but separate from "love" IMO.
I don't mean physical attraction like 'I want to have sex with you right now'. But those butterflies that you feel when you look at someone... if you don't feel them, is it really love? Can you REALLY love someone who you are not attracted to? Love is what makes people beautiful... fit, fat, deformed... it doesn't matter if you really love them, you will love them no matter what they look like.
Ok so it's what I meant. And I suppose that if you take the intimacy part out, it's the same with children (how we love them and they're so beautiful to us).
Hmm. I'll have to think about this. I suppose that the main difference between love for children and love for someone else is the choice and expectations that come with it. I know that I let my kids get away with things that I would never tolerate from a man, for example, lol!
i guess thats my point. to me, real love is just unconditional. doesn't matter the object, doesn't matter what they do don't do, get away with or not, its just love. all the time, not matter what, end of story. its NOT something you get...like you can't demand it from someone ...ie spouse... its not a "will to receive thing". for each person its only a GIVE thing. ALL you can do and control is whether you choose to give it.
you see, if we all would just choose to give it unconditionally, no one would be choosing to "withhold" it and this whole thread would be a mute point.
At this stage in my life, i choose to fret of the things i can control, which is only me. how i act and interact and then I get that deep down on the inside satisfaction. you know..that feeling of "I did all i could the best i could in that situation" kinda thing. there is peace in that. its borderline insanity to fret of things we can't control. it just makes no sense to fret over it when we have no control over it.
I dunno. its a deep subject. this is just my opinion.1 -
Tomk652015 wrote: »Tomk652015 wrote: »Tomk652015 wrote: »is love different depending on the object? are there varying definitions of love? or don't i understand whats disturbed you?
*edit* maybe so. have to think about that.
Well yeah, physical attraction/intimacy is a big part of love between adults...
i really don't think so. i think they are totally separate. its like saying when you no longer look appealing to me, i cease to love you as much.
I think we confuse physical feelings with love all the time. how sad to think if i get in a car accident and am deformed or unable to "perform" my spouses love for me will decline.
now, its a big part of a relationship, but separate from "love" IMO.
I don't mean physical attraction like 'I want to have sex with you right now'. But those butterflies that you feel when you look at someone... if you don't feel them, is it really love? Can you REALLY love someone who you are not attracted to? Love is what makes people beautiful... fit, fat, deformed... it doesn't matter if you really love them, you will love them no matter what they look like.
Ok so it's what I meant. And I suppose that if you take the intimacy part out, it's the same with children (how we love them and they're so beautiful to us).
Hmm. I'll have to think about this. I suppose that the main difference between love for children and love for someone else is the choice and expectations that come with it. I know that I let my kids get away with things that I would never tolerate from a man, for example, lol!
i guess thats my point. to me, real love is just unconditional. doesn't matter the object, doesn't matter what they do don't do, get away with or not, its just love. all the time, not matter what, end of story. its NOT something you get...like you can't demand it from someone ...ie spouse... its not a "will to receive thing". for each person its only a GIVE thing. ALL you can do and control is whether you choose to give it.
you see, if we all would just choose to give it unconditionally, no one would be choosing to "withhold" it and this whole thread would be a mute point.
At this stage in my life, i choose to fret of the things i can control, which is only me. how i act and interact and then I get that deep down on the inside satisfaction. you know..that feeling of "I did all i could the best i could in that situation" kinda thing. there is peace in that. its borderline insanity to fret of things we can't control. it just makes no sense to fret over it when we have no control over it.
I dunno. its a deep subject. this is just my opinion.
Yeah but love isn't something you choose to feel, IMO. It just happens. If someone decides to 'withhold it' or whatever, then it's not love.
Which is basically what I meant by 'most people will probably never experience real love'. I think that people often settle... it's convenient, it's familiar, you get along with the person well enough... Then, I'm not sure that love lasts forever either. When you love someone completely... you love that person... but if the person changes, it doesn't mean you'll necessarily love THAT person too. Life happens, people change. I see a lot of people stay with someone because they loved what they used to have... but that's gone...
Definitely a deep subject though. I've been thinking about it a lot lately actually, it's been a pretty heartbreaking experience for me frankly.0 -
To me, love is me not really being very happy with my SO at the moment, but still never even consider giving him up. I know I don't HAVE to be head over heels right now. Maybe tomorrow I will be. He's still my BFF and the only one I want to annoy me forever and ever.
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DetroitDarin wrote: »I am going to wait for that kind of love, Franc, even if It means I stay alone. Because being lonely within a relationship is the worst kind of hell I can imagine. Or have experienced.
I feel the same way. I was alone in my marriage for 10yrs. It was awful & I was utterly miserable. I left my husband almost 2yrs ago after finally deciding I deserved to be happy & it was the best desicion I've ever made. I'm single & happy now & I will never settle for mediocre again! I deserve to be utterly in love with someone who feels the same about me. And if it never happens, then so be it. I will continue to be happy as a single person instead of half of a miserable couple.2 -
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