Please comment on this program
JackRussl
Posts: 11 Member
Please give comments and/or suggestions on the following program
Day 1:
- Warm-up. 3 x 10 pushups
- Renegade Pushups. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 11.5kg
- Flys on stability ball. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 13.5kg
- Explosive pushups. 10, 8, 6, 6 - Superset with flys
- Partner leg raise/throw - 3 x 13
- Medicine ball push up (Alternate hand). Goal is 2min, currently just over 1min
Day 2:
- Warm-up. 3 x 10 pushups
- Dumbbell lateral raise (overhead) - 10, 8, 6, 6 - 6.5kg
- Stability ball diamond pushup - 3 x 10
Superset
- Bench dip (Seated) - 10, 8, 6, 6 - 15kg
- Barbell upright row - 10, 8, 6, 6 - 22.5kg
- Pushup to dip. Goal 2min. Achieved and doing 18 reps. Start with hands on 2 chairs - do a pushup, move your body forward and do a dip, this is one rep.
Day 3:
- Warm-up. 3 x 10 Body weight squats
- Squats. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 32.5kg
- Dumbbell Lunges. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 8.5kg
- Hanging knee raises. 3 x 20
- Box jumps. 3 x 10 - 50cm
Only changes I can think of is to add Ab exercise on day 2 and calve exercise to all the days.
Day 1:
- Warm-up. 3 x 10 pushups
- Renegade Pushups. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 11.5kg
- Flys on stability ball. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 13.5kg
- Explosive pushups. 10, 8, 6, 6 - Superset with flys
- Partner leg raise/throw - 3 x 13
- Medicine ball push up (Alternate hand). Goal is 2min, currently just over 1min
Day 2:
- Warm-up. 3 x 10 pushups
- Dumbbell lateral raise (overhead) - 10, 8, 6, 6 - 6.5kg
- Stability ball diamond pushup - 3 x 10
Superset
- Bench dip (Seated) - 10, 8, 6, 6 - 15kg
- Barbell upright row - 10, 8, 6, 6 - 22.5kg
- Pushup to dip. Goal 2min. Achieved and doing 18 reps. Start with hands on 2 chairs - do a pushup, move your body forward and do a dip, this is one rep.
Day 3:
- Warm-up. 3 x 10 Body weight squats
- Squats. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 32.5kg
- Dumbbell Lunges. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 8.5kg
- Hanging knee raises. 3 x 20
- Box jumps. 3 x 10 - 50cm
Only changes I can think of is to add Ab exercise on day 2 and calve exercise to all the days.
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Replies
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Please give comments and/or suggestions on the following program
Day 1:
- Warm-up. 3 x 10 pushups
- Renegade Pushups. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 11.5kg
- Flys on stability ball. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 13.5kg
- Explosive pushups. 10, 8, 6, 6 - Superset with flys
- Partner leg raise/throw - 3 x 13
- Medicine ball push up (Alternate hand). Goal is 2min, currently just over 1min
Day 2:
- Warm-up. 3 x 10 pushups
- Dumbbell lateral raise (overhead) - 10, 8, 6, 6 - 6.5kg
- Stability ball diamond pushup - 3 x 10
Superset
- Bench dip (Seated) - 10, 8, 6, 6 - 15kg
- Barbell upright row - 10, 8, 6, 6 - 22.5kg
- Pushup to dip. Goal 2min. Achieved and doing 18 reps. Start with hands on 2 chairs - do a pushup, move your body forward and do a dip, this is one rep.
Day 3:
- Warm-up. 3 x 10 Body weight squats
- Squats. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 32.5kg
- Dumbbell Lunges. 10, 8, 6, 6 - 8.5kg
- Hanging knee raises. 3 x 20
- Box jumps. 3 x 10 - 50cm
Only changes I can think of is to add Ab exercise on day 2 and calve exercise to all the days.
Well, it looks like you're atleast hitting all of the muscle groups. Some things i would change though...
Day 2: I would switch out:- -Stability ball diamond pushup
- +For barbell deadlifts instead.
- -Dumbbell lateral raise
- + For either dumbell or barbell overhead press
Day 3: I would switch out:- - Dumbbell Lunges
- + For Romanian Split Squats
- -Hanging knee raises
- +Planks or other core stability works like hollow body holds
P.S. I suggested these because you are working chest numerous times. I think you're best bet is to incorporate a heavy back exercise on the day you're doing other back exercises. Dumbbell lateral raises are dangerous and can cause shoulder impingement, so i suggest replacing with overhead press (which places less stress on the Rotator Cuff). Same with lunges, they can be dangerous and poor form is rampant (especially in walking lunges). Better to switch to split squats which work the same muscle group, require stabilization, and allow for greater eccentric range of motion. As far as core work, it's my experience that being as the core is made up of mostly type 2 fibers they're best fatigued when stabilizing over a long period of time.1 -
I'm not sure that I want to lose the stability ball pushup, you can really feel the core working on it. I would rather just add the deadlift because the day 2 program is a bit shorter.
Will have a look at replacing the lateral raise, tnx I don't want injuries
Will swap dumbbell lunges for split squats, I like the additional work on stability (normally I stay away from machines, they only train the main muscle and not supporting muscles).
Will add another core workout, knee raises are a winner for me personally.
Thanks for the detail, I will surely adjust or add your suggestions.0 -
There are a few things that could be improved.
The first thing is that you should know exactly why you are doing every movement in the gym and to choose them according to your specific goals. You have a lot of movements in there and I would wonder if there is a specific reason that you are doing each one. It is often times better to stick with basic exercises and simply do more volume or use higher intensity than it is to do a ton of different exercises.
The second problem I see is the disparity between reps pushed and reps pulled. As a rule of thumb, most people should pull about 2x the amount of reps that they press. This is primarily a concern for shoulder and postural health. Your program only has 1 pulling movement and a ton of pushup variations. Ontop of that, the 1 pulling variation is an upright row which is easy to dominate with the upper traps and anterior deltoids so it really doesn't serve the purpose that most pulling movements do which is scapular retraction and depression. In short, train your back a lot. Your shoulders will thank you and you won't just look good in front of a mirror.
The third thing is know what you are training for. This routine is kind of all over the place. Are you trying to get leaner? Stronger? Bigger? Improve performance for a sport (and if so, in what way)? Pick 1 thing and make a short term goal for it such as a certain bodyfat %, weight or set a performance goal like a certain 100m sprint speed, bench max, etc... this short term goal should fall in line with your long term goal. Then, train in such a way that targets that short term goal directly. This is the difference between "exercising" or "working out" and actually training for something. You will get a lot more out of training than you will exercising.
The last problem I see is that there is no plan for progression programmed in and no periodization. Basically, what you posted is a split, not a program. A program assumes that you will be soliciting adaptations through your training and provides a standardized way to increase the intensity in some manner as you get progress to meet the new, higher demands your body will require to progress even further.
Pick up the book: "Practical Periodization" by Mark Rippetoe. It is a great crash course on adaptive theory and will help you understand the why and how of training for pretty much anything.
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I don't easily add weight, so my goal is to add a bit of muscle, be stronger and fitter.
I got this program from a Men's Health magazine and adjusted it slightly. I have a home gym and couldn't follow it 100%. I added weight, size and strength while on this program.
Progression. I don't have a fixed progression planned, but also don't just stick to the same weight all the time. I increase the weight constantly to challenge myself.
Doesn't the renegade push-up count as both push and pull? The push-up portion is a push excessive and the row portion a pull.0 -
Cherimoose wrote: »
To do a lot of pushups.0 -
Anything wrong with push-ups? Still one of the best exercises around.
If you don't have anything constructive to add, please move over to the jokes section.
I asked a question to evaluate my current program and make adjustments where there are something that is not 100%?
Do come here to look for advice or possibly assist someone or do you just use the forum and try to be funny?0 -
You need a lot more pulling. Along with the things @rainbowbow said, I'd also suggest doing regular dips instead of bench dips as they can really compromise shoulder positioning.
Also why so many pushups?1 -
The push-ups was part of the initial program, busy making small tweaks to it.
I can't do regular dips, I only gym at home and do not have all the equipment.0 -
You need a lot more pulling. Along with the things @rainbowbow said, I'd also suggest doing regular dips instead of bench dips as they can really compromise shoulder positioning.
Also why so many pushups?
this was my question too. and why i suggested getting rid of them on the second day.
But i assumed this is a beginner program that would be done for about 6-8 weeks before progressing forward. Whoops, i guess i shouldn't assume, huh.
I agree with the above that this needs to be a periodized program as well as progressive.0 -
Not really a beginner workout, there are not a lot of beginners our there who will be able to do most of the exercises on day 1. Day 2 is an easier day and 3 is only legs.
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Not really a beginner workout, there are not a lot of beginners our there who will be able to do most of the exercises on day 1. Day 2 is an easier day and 3 is only legs.
No, this certainly is a beginner workout.
All of these exercises can be found under the "Stabilization- Level 1" Phase of the OPT model. It is beginner in that the total volume is low and focus is on increasing endurance and stability. The focus of this program is not on strength, hypertrophy, power, etc. It is on endurance and stabilization.
Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it isn't a "beginner" level workout.
This workout is similar to what I do every 3-4 months after i go through hypertrophy and strength training periods. I usually take 6 weeks off to focus on stability, endurance, and lighten the load.
edit: i just want to stress, i'm not ragging on it, i know that these movements can be difficult. But the type of exercises they are determine how i would classify this plan.1 -
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Ok, tnx.
I only have free weights (plus the bench) and don't have access to a gym. What type of exercises would you recommend to add some muscle and strength?0 -
Ok, tnx.
I only have free weights (plus the bench) and don't have access to a gym. What type of exercises would you recommend to add some muscle and strength?
You need to probably focus on what your goals are. Do you want to gain strength (just get stronger)? Do you want to build muscle SIZE (aka aesthetics)? Do you want to be able to do more, longer (endurance)? Do you want to have functional training? ((Pick ONE))
It's my opinion that you should perform SMR and flexibility as well as light cardio REGARDLESS of what you choose but the "strength" portion of the program should have 1 specific goal. Kind of a jack of all trades, master of none thing. You can focus on getting good at one thing, or you can be sub-par at all things.
Again, you want your training to be periodized. So, you may very well start now working on endurance, then move to strength, then to hypertrophy, then to functional training, then start all over, etc. It's up to you.
It depends on how much weight you can currently lift, if you have a squat rack/barbell/etc.0 -
There are a few things that could be improved.
The second problem I see is the disparity between reps pushed and reps pulled. As a rule of thumb, most people should pull about 2x the amount of reps that they press. This is primarily a concern for shoulder and postural health. Your program only has 1 pulling movement and a ton of pushup variations. Ontop of that, the 1 pulling variation is an upright row which is easy to dominate with the upper traps and anterior deltoids so it really doesn't serve the purpose that most pulling movements do which is scapular retraction and depression. In short, train your back a lot. Your shoulders will thank you and you won't just look good in front of a mirror.
I'm just following along and would like clarification. Is 2:1 Pull/Push ratio for reps or exercises. If I do 10-8-5-3 on Bench Press, do I need to do twice that much on a dumbbell row, or find another pulling exercise to maintain that ratio?
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iplayoutside19 wrote: »There are a few things that could be improved.
The second problem I see is the disparity between reps pushed and reps pulled. As a rule of thumb, most people should pull about 2x the amount of reps that they press. This is primarily a concern for shoulder and postural health. Your program only has 1 pulling movement and a ton of pushup variations. Ontop of that, the 1 pulling variation is an upright row which is easy to dominate with the upper traps and anterior deltoids so it really doesn't serve the purpose that most pulling movements do which is scapular retraction and depression. In short, train your back a lot. Your shoulders will thank you and you won't just look good in front of a mirror.
I'm just following along and would like clarification. Is 2:1 Pull/Push ratio for reps or exercises. If I do 10-8-5-3 on Bench Press, do I need to do twice that much on a dumbbell row, or find another pulling exercise to maintain that ratio?
I'm not certain this is really a "rule", but most people certainly have weaker muscles on the back (likely because we can't see them and sit hunched over our computers/phones all day). In addition, most people have some sort of terrible posture (upper cross being extremely common nowadays). In this case, they should really be looking to correct any imbalances or postural distortions before lifting and beginning a strenuous program. Without correcting these issues you can have a whole slew of injuries (shoulder and knees being common).1 -
rainbowbow wrote: »iplayoutside19 wrote: »There are a few things that could be improved.
The second problem I see is the disparity between reps pushed and reps pulled. As a rule of thumb, most people should pull about 2x the amount of reps that they press. This is primarily a concern for shoulder and postural health. Your program only has 1 pulling movement and a ton of pushup variations. Ontop of that, the 1 pulling variation is an upright row which is easy to dominate with the upper traps and anterior deltoids so it really doesn't serve the purpose that most pulling movements do which is scapular retraction and depression. In short, train your back a lot. Your shoulders will thank you and you won't just look good in front of a mirror.
I'm just following along and would like clarification. Is 2:1 Pull/Push ratio for reps or exercises. If I do 10-8-5-3 on Bench Press, do I need to do twice that much on a dumbbell row, or find another pulling exercise to maintain that ratio?
I'm not certain this is really a "rule", but most people certainly have weaker muscles on the back (likely because we can't see them and sit hunched over our computers/phones all day). In addition, most people have some sort of terrible posture (upper cross being extremely common nowadays). In this case, they should really be looking to correct any imbalances or postural distortions before lifting and beginning a strenuous program. Without correcting these issues you can have a whole slew of injuries (shoulder and knees being common).
Thanks. My HS S&C Coach taught us (20 yrs ago) that if you design your own work out make sure it balances. If you work one muscle group, you need to add something on the other side so you don't get out of balance. That class and the occasional article over the years are the extent of my academic fitness studies. This is the first I've seen a 2:1 ratio in regard to balance, and science tends to make new discoveries over the years so I was wondering.0 -
iplayoutside19 wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »iplayoutside19 wrote: »There are a few things that could be improved.
The second problem I see is the disparity between reps pushed and reps pulled. As a rule of thumb, most people should pull about 2x the amount of reps that they press. This is primarily a concern for shoulder and postural health. Your program only has 1 pulling movement and a ton of pushup variations. Ontop of that, the 1 pulling variation is an upright row which is easy to dominate with the upper traps and anterior deltoids so it really doesn't serve the purpose that most pulling movements do which is scapular retraction and depression. In short, train your back a lot. Your shoulders will thank you and you won't just look good in front of a mirror.
I'm just following along and would like clarification. Is 2:1 Pull/Push ratio for reps or exercises. If I do 10-8-5-3 on Bench Press, do I need to do twice that much on a dumbbell row, or find another pulling exercise to maintain that ratio?
I'm not certain this is really a "rule", but most people certainly have weaker muscles on the back (likely because we can't see them and sit hunched over our computers/phones all day). In addition, most people have some sort of terrible posture (upper cross being extremely common nowadays). In this case, they should really be looking to correct any imbalances or postural distortions before lifting and beginning a strenuous program. Without correcting these issues you can have a whole slew of injuries (shoulder and knees being common).
Thanks. My HS S&C Coach taught us (20 yrs ago) that if you design your own work out make sure it balances. If you work one muscle group, you need to add something on the other side so you don't get out of balance. That class and the occasional article over the years are the extent of my academic fitness studies. This is the first I've seen a 2:1 ratio in regard to balance, and science tends to make new discoveries over the years so I was wondering.
I'm a certified personal trainer and in my education we were always taught to keep training balanced. We were also taught that if imbalances exist they need to be corrected before moving on to strength.
Essentially, when there is an imbalance you can have synergistic dominance, altered force couple relationships, and altered reciprocal inhibition. When certain muscles aren't firing, are healing and being used improperly, etc. Davis's law is applied. Then the cumulative injury cycle begins. etc. etc. etc. I can go into more detail if anyone wants the specifics on this.
All i have to say about that, is everything should be balanced. It might be a mental note "workout the back 2x as much!" which helps people actually keep a balanced routine since as stated, we can't see our backside and we will almost certainly neglect it unless we plan otherwise.2 -
Great advice in here. High fives to @rainbowbow and @Lofteren for some solid, researched and thoughtful recommendations.4
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iplayoutside19 wrote: »There are a few things that could be improved.
The second problem I see is the disparity between reps pushed and reps pulled. As a rule of thumb, most people should pull about 2x the amount of reps that they press. This is primarily a concern for shoulder and postural health. Your program only has 1 pulling movement and a ton of pushup variations. Ontop of that, the 1 pulling variation is an upright row which is easy to dominate with the upper traps and anterior deltoids so it really doesn't serve the purpose that most pulling movements do which is scapular retraction and depression. In short, train your back a lot. Your shoulders will thank you and you won't just look good in front of a mirror.
I'm just following along and would like clarification. Is 2:1 Pull/Push ratio for reps or exercises. If I do 10-8-5-3 on Bench Press, do I need to do twice that much on a dumbbell row, or find another pulling exercise to maintain that ratio?
It doesn't really matter if you do db rows, bb rows, t-bar rows, etc... you just need to do twice the volume of horizontal pulls as you do horizontal presses and twice the volume of vertical pulls as you do vertical presses.
The reason you should do more pulling than pressing is because the posterior muscles provide a base off of which to press but the pressing muscles do not provide much of a base off of which to pull simply because of how your joints articulate. So, if your posterior muscles are more developed than your anterior muscles, you are less likely to have postural problems or to injure yourself while lifting.
This is a very simplistic explanation of it for the sake of brevity. I am sure you could find some good resources online if you want a deeper understanding.3 -
The reason you should do more pulling than pressing is because the posterior muscles provide a base off of which to press but the pressing muscles do not provide much of a base off of which to pull simply because of how your joints articulate.
I'm not sure this warrants a doubling up on pulling volume. While the pulling muscles do help stabilize the skeleton while pushing, the weakest link in the pushing chain is usually the pushing muscles themselves (and their tendons). Doubling up on pulling could potentially lead to overtraining injuries, like forearm tendonitis, especially on higher-volume programs.
Some say to double on pulling to fix poor posture, but posture is the job of the slow twitch muscle fibers, which are endurance fibers, not strength. Increasing strength (fast twitch fibers) doesn't guarantee good posture (plenty of muscular people have poor posture).
Just my 2 sets.
By the way, i prefer more vertical pushing than pulling sets, because outside the gym, i'm much more likely to need to lift something overhead than to pull myself up.
OP - i don't see a problem with training multiple goals simultaneously, if you aren't trying to max out your potential at each goal. It helps keep skills alive that would decline when cycling off goals.
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Cherimoose wrote: »The reason you should do more pulling than pressing is because the posterior muscles provide a base off of which to press but the pressing muscles do not provide much of a base off of which to pull simply because of how your joints articulate.
I'm not sure this warrants a doubling up on pulling volume. While the pulling muscles do help stabilize the skeleton while pushing, the weakest link in the pushing chain is usually the pushing muscles themselves (and their tendons). Doubling up on pulling could potentially lead to overtraining injuries, like forearm tendonitis, especially on higher-volume programs.
Some say to double on pulling to fix poor posture, but posture is the job of the slow twitch muscle fibers, which are endurance fibers, not strength. Increasing strength (fast twitch fibers) doesn't guarantee good posture (plenty of muscular people have poor posture).
Just my 2 sets.
By the way, i prefer more vertical pushing than pulling sets, because outside the gym, i'm much more likely to need to lift something overhead than to pull myself up.
OP - i don't see a problem with training multiple goals simultaneously, if you aren't trying to max out your potential at each goal. It helps keep skills alive that would decline when cycling off goals.
Everything in this post is wrong. Where did you learn about kinesiology/training?0 -
I skimmed, did she post her goals yet?0
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Cherimoose wrote: »I'm not sure this warrants a doubling up on pulling volume. While the pulling muscles do help stabilize the skeleton while pushing, the weakest link in the pushing chain is usually the pushing muscles themselves (and their tendons). Doubling up on pulling could potentially lead to overtraining injuries, like forearm tendonitis, especially on higher-volume programs.
Some say to double on pulling to fix poor posture, but posture is the job of the slow twitch muscle fibers, which are endurance fibers, not strength. Increasing strength (fast twitch fibers) doesn't guarantee good posture (plenty of muscular people have poor posture).
Just my 2 sets.
By the way, i prefer more vertical pushing than pulling sets, because outside the gym, i'm much more likely to need to lift something overhead than to pull myself up.
OP - i don't see a problem with training multiple goals simultaneously, if you aren't trying to max out your potential at each goal. It helps keep skills alive that would decline when cycling off goals.
Everything in this post is wrong. Where did you learn about kinesiology/training?
Partly from NASM. They didn't mention emphasizing pulling over pushing, and neither does my kinesiology textbook. But i appreciate hearing other opinions.
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Cherimoose wrote: »Cherimoose wrote: »I'm not sure this warrants a doubling up on pulling volume. While the pulling muscles do help stabilize the skeleton while pushing, the weakest link in the pushing chain is usually the pushing muscles themselves (and their tendons). Doubling up on pulling could potentially lead to overtraining injuries, like forearm tendonitis, especially on higher-volume programs.
Some say to double on pulling to fix poor posture, but posture is the job of the slow twitch muscle fibers, which are endurance fibers, not strength. Increasing strength (fast twitch fibers) doesn't guarantee good posture (plenty of muscular people have poor posture).
Just my 2 sets.
By the way, i prefer more vertical pushing than pulling sets, because outside the gym, i'm much more likely to need to lift something overhead than to pull myself up.
OP - i don't see a problem with training multiple goals simultaneously, if you aren't trying to max out your potential at each goal. It helps keep skills alive that would decline when cycling off goals.
Everything in this post is wrong. Where did you learn about kinesiology/training?
Partly from NASM. They didn't mention emphasizing pulling over pushing, and neither does my kinesiology textbook. But i appreciate hearing other opinions.
That explains it.0
This discussion has been closed.
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