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How do we judge a healthy weight range? BMI is no longer valid?
Replies
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Return2Fit wrote: »BMI is a fine place to start when you're first setting weight goals. Usually, a weight outside of BMI is too fat.
Today's culture of obesity makes BMI seem unrealistic, but no, it's a great indicator of healthy weight in proportion to height. You can calculate yours here: http://www.smartbmicalculator.com/
Too often people engage self-delusion and lower the bar to rationalize underachievement. I'm not saying there are not a few rare individuals who'd fall outside BMI, but that's not us but freaky roided up bodybuilders, fat power lifters or rotund sumo wrestlers. With us this journey should be about achieving a healthy weight.
BMI is fine...
The fat powerlifters aren't outliers either. They're still fat. It's hilarious to me that some guy thinks a 1200 lbs. squat is impressive, when he weighs almost 600 lbs. Yeah no, relative strength wise, he's a joke...a really fat joke.
There's a reason Wendler gave up on the "absolute strength" garbage, and finally decided to go from being a pile of fat, to having a decent relative strength. According to the man himself, about all he was good for at his heaviest, was waddling up to the bar, moving a weight once, and being completely gassed out.
Who is this purported 600 lb powerlifter you are referring to? Only a handful of lifters have achieved a 1200 lb squat and none of them weighed anything close to that.
IIRC the largest of them was Mike Miller (1220 @ 375lb bw)
You don't consider over 3x bodyweight impressive?
You haven't heard of Jeff Lewis' fat *kitten*, because no one cares about Yokozuna sized powerlifters anymore, even if they squat over 1200 lbs.
http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/1562 -
BMI does account for different body types, which is why there is not one set Healthy Weight for every height. It's not as though they are saying that all individuals standing 5'3" tall should weigh 120 pounds...no more, no less. For most of the population the variance in frame size and muscularity is resolved by the fact that a healthy BMI range is pretty broad. For a 5'3" person, a healthy BMI is between 105 and 140 pounds. That's quite a bit of leeway. Being small of frame, I feel and look my best at the lowest end of the range...but I could gain a good 30+ pounds and still be considered healthy...even if I might not feel as comfortable in a swimsuit.
I do agree that with the rise in obesity, our view of what overweight or obese looks like may have shifted. I have a friend who had bariatric surgery a year and a half ago. He recently announced that his BMI had dipped below 30 for the first time in his adult life. To see him walking down the street, I would describe him as "average size" ...but in reality he is just below an obese BMI. I think many of us have come to see overweight bodies as the new normal. It may not be what we see on TV, in movies, and in magazines, but it's most of what we see every day in the real world.4 -
BMI does account for different body types, which is why there is not one set Healthy Weight for every height. It's not as though they are saying that all individuals standing 5'3" tall should weigh 120 pounds...no more, no less. For most of the population the variance in frame size and muscularity is resolved by the fact that a healthy BMI range is pretty broad. For a 5'3" person, a healthy BMI is between 105 and 140 pounds. That's quite a bit of leeway. Being small of frame, I feel and look my best at the lowest end of the range...but I could gain a good 30+ pounds and still be considered healthy...even if I might not feel as comfortable in a swimsuit.
I do agree that with the rise in obesity, our view of what overweight or obese looks like may have shifted. I have a friend who had bariatric surgery a year and a half ago. He recently announced that his BMI had dipped below 30 for the first time in his adult life. To see him walking down the street, I would describe him as "average size" ...but in reality he is just below an obese BMI. I think many of us have come to see overweight bodies as the new normal. It may not be what we see on TV, in movies, and in magazines, but it's most of what we see every day in the real world.
I would like to point out that while you, with a small frame, could gain 40+ lbs and be considered "healthy", I have to work very, very hard with a large frame to be at the very top of the"healthy" range. For us bigger people, the penalties of any weight at all kick in much faster (like the 30% surcharge on my health insurance if I'm 1 lb over a BMI of 25)0 -
BMI does account for different body types, which is why there is not one set Healthy Weight for every height. It's not as though they are saying that all individuals standing 5'3" tall should weigh 120 pounds...no more, no less. For most of the population the variance in frame size and muscularity is resolved by the fact that a healthy BMI range is pretty broad. For a 5'3" person, a healthy BMI is between 105 and 140 pounds. That's quite a bit of leeway. Being small of frame, I feel and look my best at the lowest end of the range...but I could gain a good 30+ pounds and still be considered healthy...even if I might not feel as comfortable in a swimsuit.
I do agree that with the rise in obesity, our view of what overweight or obese looks like may have shifted. I have a friend who had bariatric surgery a year and a half ago. He recently announced that his BMI had dipped below 30 for the first time in his adult life. To see him walking down the street, I would describe him as "average size" ...but in reality he is just below an obese BMI. I think many of us have come to see overweight bodies as the new normal. It may not be what we see on TV, in movies, and in magazines, but it's most of what we see every day in the real world.
I would like to point out that while you, with a small frame, could gain 40+ lbs and be considered "healthy", I have to work very, very hard with a large frame to be at the very top of the"healthy" range. For us bigger people, the penalties of any weight at all kick in much faster (like the 30% surcharge on my health insurance if I'm 1 lb over a BMI of 25)
That surcharge on your health insurance must be hard to deal with!
As a short person with a medium frame, I'd like to address the range issue because that's where BMI falls short and body fat comes in. You can be considered "healthy" in a broad sense, but you aren't fooling your body if you still have a high body fat percentage riding the high end of the healthy BMI range for your height if you have a small frame.
BMI's are useful for epidemiology, but on a practical, personal level, most of us should at least frankly compare ourselves to the online images of body fat percentage to get an idea if we're on track to a healthy body fat percentage when we're deciding where within our BMI range we'd like our goal weight to settle.2 -
I still have a hard time believing that with a range that goes over 40 and more pounds, out of two people at the same height, one could be at the upper end and consider themselves skin and bones while the person at the lower end wouldn't, even with considering frame size.6
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »BMI does account for different body types, which is why there is not one set Healthy Weight for every height. It's not as though they are saying that all individuals standing 5'3" tall should weigh 120 pounds...no more, no less. For most of the population the variance in frame size and muscularity is resolved by the fact that a healthy BMI range is pretty broad. For a 5'3" person, a healthy BMI is between 105 and 140 pounds. That's quite a bit of leeway. Being small of frame, I feel and look my best at the lowest end of the range...but I could gain a good 30+ pounds and still be considered healthy...even if I might not feel as comfortable in a swimsuit.
I do agree that with the rise in obesity, our view of what overweight or obese looks like may have shifted. I have a friend who had bariatric surgery a year and a half ago. He recently announced that his BMI had dipped below 30 for the first time in his adult life. To see him walking down the street, I would describe him as "average size" ...but in reality he is just below an obese BMI. I think many of us have come to see overweight bodies as the new normal. It may not be what we see on TV, in movies, and in magazines, but it's most of what we see every day in the real world.
I would like to point out that while you, with a small frame, could gain 40+ lbs and be considered "healthy", I have to work very, very hard with a large frame to be at the very top of the"healthy" range. For us bigger people, the penalties of any weight at all kick in much faster (like the 30% surcharge on my health insurance if I'm 1 lb over a BMI of 25)
That surcharge on your health insurance must be hard to deal with!
As a short person with a medium frame, I'd like to address the range issue because that's where BMI falls short and body fat comes in. You can be considered "healthy" in a broad sense, but you aren't fooling your body if you still have a high body fat percentage riding the high end of the healthy BMI range for your height if you have a small frame.
BMI's are useful for epidemiology, but on a practical, personal level, most of us should at least frankly compare ourselves to the online images of body fat percentage to get an idea if we're on track to a healthy body fat percentage when we're deciding where within our BMI range we'd like our goal weight to settle.
And I would be pretty sure if people do the comparison and are honest with themselves 80-90% of the people would realize if they are overweight on the BMI scale they are also overfat using a body fat % measure.4 -
BMI is a valid measure for the vast majority of the population. Unless you're a competitive runner, dancer, etc. (in which case you will likely be underweight by BMI and yet healthy) or have a significant amount of muscle mass (in which case you'll be overweight by BMI and yet healthy).3
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JeromeBarry1 wrote: »The weight ranges were determined 240 years ago in France, which was in the midst of the Maunder Minimum famine. With that little historical semi-accurate nugget stated, I'll share that my Dr asked my loss target and I told her it was the middle of the healthy BMI for my height, which is about 160. She suggested that I should go no lower than the top of the healthy BMI for my height, which is about 180. My brother is my height and he's always looked good at about 170.
Your doctor is like no doctor I've ever met and has given you bad information on BMI2 -
I have come to the not immovable conclusion that I am somewhat of an outlier. 10 years of competitive gymnastics and 3 years of full-time dance training (whilst overweight so working harder than if I was leaner) has left me with a reasonable amount of lean mass for a female. At 5'5, 168lbs, I have a 28-29" waist. If I had to guess at BF% I'd say somewhere between 25-30 (quite a large range but I've lost self perspective a little at this point!). My current dress size is US6-8/UK10-12. There are women my height and 20-30lbs lighter with a larger waist. BUT, I am not so much of an outlier that BMI is inappropriate for me. Before I started, I had the idea that a UK10 was pretty darn small. Now that I am essentially there (booty and boobs allowing, I'm an hourglass), it doesn't feel very small at all. I am still carrying a good amount of body fat.
And there's the rub. Vanity sizing and a shift in what we consider to be "normal" has changed vastly. I can easily and healthily lose another 20-25lbs to get me into a healthy BMI range and I fully intend to do that too. This would also make my dress size somewhere around a UK6/US2. When I've mentioned this theory to friends they think it's ridiculously small. But it's really not.
Now of course I may lose that 20lbs (and I've lost 52 or so so far) and find that actually, I could stand to lose a bit more and I'm not an outlier at all. Which would only compound my theory that BMI is just fine for most people and shouldn't be dismissed.
So if I, a heavier than your average female, can happily aim to be within the healthy BMI range, there's no reason that the vast majority of other people can too. I don't think it's helpful to try and dismiss BMI as total bunk, it's a well known metric for people to get going with, especially if they're completely green to anything health and fitness related.1 -
Packerjohn wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »BMI does account for different body types, which is why there is not one set Healthy Weight for every height. It's not as though they are saying that all individuals standing 5'3" tall should weigh 120 pounds...no more, no less. For most of the population the variance in frame size and muscularity is resolved by the fact that a healthy BMI range is pretty broad. For a 5'3" person, a healthy BMI is between 105 and 140 pounds. That's quite a bit of leeway. Being small of frame, I feel and look my best at the lowest end of the range...but I could gain a good 30+ pounds and still be considered healthy...even if I might not feel as comfortable in a swimsuit.
I do agree that with the rise in obesity, our view of what overweight or obese looks like may have shifted. I have a friend who had bariatric surgery a year and a half ago. He recently announced that his BMI had dipped below 30 for the first time in his adult life. To see him walking down the street, I would describe him as "average size" ...but in reality he is just below an obese BMI. I think many of us have come to see overweight bodies as the new normal. It may not be what we see on TV, in movies, and in magazines, but it's most of what we see every day in the real world.
I would like to point out that while you, with a small frame, could gain 40+ lbs and be considered "healthy", I have to work very, very hard with a large frame to be at the very top of the"healthy" range. For us bigger people, the penalties of any weight at all kick in much faster (like the 30% surcharge on my health insurance if I'm 1 lb over a BMI of 25)
That surcharge on your health insurance must be hard to deal with!
As a short person with a medium frame, I'd like to address the range issue because that's where BMI falls short and body fat comes in. You can be considered "healthy" in a broad sense, but you aren't fooling your body if you still have a high body fat percentage riding the high end of the healthy BMI range for your height if you have a small frame.
BMI's are useful for epidemiology, but on a practical, personal level, most of us should at least frankly compare ourselves to the online images of body fat percentage to get an idea if we're on track to a healthy body fat percentage when we're deciding where within our BMI range we'd like our goal weight to settle.
And I would be pretty sure if people do the comparison and are honest with themselves 80-90% of the people would realize if they are overweight on the BMI scale they are also overfat using a body fat % measure.
Well, it depends on which group of "most" people you're talking about. Most people in the general population, or most people here who have lost weight?
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »BMI does account for different body types, which is why there is not one set Healthy Weight for every height. It's not as though they are saying that all individuals standing 5'3" tall should weigh 120 pounds...no more, no less. For most of the population the variance in frame size and muscularity is resolved by the fact that a healthy BMI range is pretty broad. For a 5'3" person, a healthy BMI is between 105 and 140 pounds. That's quite a bit of leeway. Being small of frame, I feel and look my best at the lowest end of the range...but I could gain a good 30+ pounds and still be considered healthy...even if I might not feel as comfortable in a swimsuit.
I do agree that with the rise in obesity, our view of what overweight or obese looks like may have shifted. I have a friend who had bariatric surgery a year and a half ago. He recently announced that his BMI had dipped below 30 for the first time in his adult life. To see him walking down the street, I would describe him as "average size" ...but in reality he is just below an obese BMI. I think many of us have come to see overweight bodies as the new normal. It may not be what we see on TV, in movies, and in magazines, but it's most of what we see every day in the real world.
I would like to point out that while you, with a small frame, could gain 40+ lbs and be considered "healthy", I have to work very, very hard with a large frame to be at the very top of the"healthy" range. For us bigger people, the penalties of any weight at all kick in much faster (like the 30% surcharge on my health insurance if I'm 1 lb over a BMI of 25)
That surcharge on your health insurance must be hard to deal with!
As a short person with a medium frame, I'd like to address the range issue because that's where BMI falls short and body fat comes in. You can be considered "healthy" in a broad sense, but you aren't fooling your body if you still have a high body fat percentage riding the high end of the healthy BMI range for your height if you have a small frame.
BMI's are useful for epidemiology, but on a practical, personal level, most of us should at least frankly compare ourselves to the online images of body fat percentage to get an idea if we're on track to a healthy body fat percentage when we're deciding where within our BMI range we'd like our goal weight to settle.
And I would be pretty sure if people do the comparison and are honest with themselves 80-90% of the people would realize if they are overweight on the BMI scale they are also overfat using a body fat % measure.
Well, it depends on which group of "most" people you're talking about. Most people in the general population, or most people here who have lost weight?
I would consider my statement true for both groups.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »BMI does account for different body types, which is why there is not one set Healthy Weight for every height. It's not as though they are saying that all individuals standing 5'3" tall should weigh 120 pounds...no more, no less. For most of the population the variance in frame size and muscularity is resolved by the fact that a healthy BMI range is pretty broad. For a 5'3" person, a healthy BMI is between 105 and 140 pounds. That's quite a bit of leeway. Being small of frame, I feel and look my best at the lowest end of the range...but I could gain a good 30+ pounds and still be considered healthy...even if I might not feel as comfortable in a swimsuit.
I do agree that with the rise in obesity, our view of what overweight or obese looks like may have shifted. I have a friend who had bariatric surgery a year and a half ago. He recently announced that his BMI had dipped below 30 for the first time in his adult life. To see him walking down the street, I would describe him as "average size" ...but in reality he is just below an obese BMI. I think many of us have come to see overweight bodies as the new normal. It may not be what we see on TV, in movies, and in magazines, but it's most of what we see every day in the real world.
I would like to point out that while you, with a small frame, could gain 40+ lbs and be considered "healthy", I have to work very, very hard with a large frame to be at the very top of the"healthy" range. For us bigger people, the penalties of any weight at all kick in much faster (like the 30% surcharge on my health insurance if I'm 1 lb over a BMI of 25)
That surcharge on your health insurance must be hard to deal with!
As a short person with a medium frame, I'd like to address the range issue because that's where BMI falls short and body fat comes in. You can be considered "healthy" in a broad sense, but you aren't fooling your body if you still have a high body fat percentage riding the high end of the healthy BMI range for your height if you have a small frame.
BMI's are useful for epidemiology, but on a practical, personal level, most of us should at least frankly compare ourselves to the online images of body fat percentage to get an idea if we're on track to a healthy body fat percentage when we're deciding where within our BMI range we'd like our goal weight to settle.
And I would be pretty sure if people do the comparison and are honest with themselves 80-90% of the people would realize if they are overweight on the BMI scale they are also overfat using a body fat % measure.
Well, it depends on which group of "most" people you're talking about. Most people in the general population, or most people here who have lost weight?
I would consider my statement true for both groups.
I'd agree with this1 -
Did I say "skin and bones"? Putting hyperbole in another person's mouth is a very effective way to dismiss them without actually hearing what they say.0
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That skin and bones comment wasn't directed at you directly, there have been, in this thread and past ones, people who claimed that about themselves or others. People who say they look normal at a BMI of 27 or so and below 25 is absolutely unthinkable and they would look like a skeleton.
Seeing how I lost over 50 pounds and have the comparison of myself at that BMI and middle of healthy BMI I can't see anyone my height, even with shoulders as broad as a doorway (which would look rather comical), to look like a skeleton at that weight. We're not even talking the usual muscular argument here either.1 -
I'm not saying BMI is "total bunk" I'm arguing its a very limited metric for assessing individual health. Which I wouldn't care about at all if it wasn't the LAW in the United States that health insurance companies can fine individuals for not being under a BMI of 25. Mine does, because I have individual insurance. I imagine other people's insurance will follow suit in the coming years as it becomes an "accepted practice" akin to fining smokers.
I'm not saying people CAN'T get into the healthy range, if they really want to, even with large frames and high muscle mass. But it might be unreasonable to demand it of others. I get why the Asian countries use a lower BMI guideline, but I think the WHO was really out of line to move the marker for "overweight" from 27.5 to 25 on a world scale, and the NIH should definitely not have followed suit, particularly how this has become the primary metric on which any discussion of negative health effects of weight is based.
It is absolutely and grossly inappropriate to demand that individuals with larger frames and higher muscle mass maintain lower body fat percentages than those who have small frames and lower muscle mass, under the guise of "health". There are deeply troubling implications for public policy in a multicultural nation when measurable differences exist between racial groups with considerably different medical outcomes. For example, people of African descent generally have much lower visceral adiposity than those of European descent at the same weight, while those of Asian descent typically have much greater visceral adiposity. The health implications are pretty dramatic, with Europeans not showing measurable negative health risk on average until above a BMI of 28, while for African Americans that risk doesn't start increasing until about 32 and for Asians it appears above 23!
The BMI was always meant to be a population metric, not an individual assessment. That it has been coupled to health insurance and penalties are applied for those who do not meet the criteria is absurd.
Even the CDC agrees with this:What should we conclude about BMI? BMI is a reasonable indicator of body fat for both adults and children. Because BMI does not measure body fat directly, it should not be used as a diagnostic tool. Instead, BMI should be used as a measure to track weight status in population
CDC - BMI for Practitioners6 -
Just as a random thought: when did that BMI change from 27.5 to 25 happen? I ask this due to my recollection of a "healthy" weight for me being in the 180s-190s when I first started losing weight, but now it being in the low 170s.
I thought it was my memory screwing with me, but that obviously may not be the case.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Just as a random thought: when did that BMI change from 27.5 to 25 happen? I ask this due to my recollection of a "healthy" weight for me being in the 180s-190s when I first started losing weight, but now it being in the low 170s.
I thought it was my memory screwing with me, but that obviously may not be the case.
1998. Strangely, there was a massive up-swing of obesity about then. Hmm...
"In 1998, the U.S. National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention brought U.S. definitions in line with World Health Organization guidelines, lowering the normal/overweight cut-off from BMI 27.8 to BMI 25. This had the effect of redefining approximately 29 million Americans, previously healthy, to overweight."
Linky (check under U.S.) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_mass_index#International_variations2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Just as a random thought: when did that BMI change from 27.5 to 25 happen? I ask this due to my recollection of a "healthy" weight for me being in the 180s-190s when I first started losing weight, but now it being in the low 170s.
I thought it was my memory screwing with me, but that obviously may not be the case.
Around 98. Doctors sat down, and figured out the cut-off was too high, and matched it to the WHO's findings for when obesity related problems start to correlate.2 -
coreyreichle wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Just as a random thought: when did that BMI change from 27.5 to 25 happen? I ask this due to my recollection of a "healthy" weight for me being in the 180s-190s when I first started losing weight, but now it being in the low 170s.
I thought it was my memory screwing with me, but that obviously may not be the case.
Around 98. Doctors sat down, and figured out the cut-off was too high, and matched it to the WHO's findings for when obesity related problems start to correlate.
Yeah, that predates my first weightloss attempts by a long time. Best guess is that I am thinking of what my overweight numbers are, as I was morbidly obese at the time, and that seemed like a reasonable goal.0 -
Our perceptions of what is normal is very skewed (just like what our idea of the proper portion size is)!. BMI goes hand in hand with weight to help Identify weight groups that have a higher risk and or occurrence of having health issues. I knew that I Should watch what I eat, Keep my weight down, and exercise; however I didn't, gained the weight and found out a couple of years ago that I'm diabetic and am having to lose the weight to help lower my A1C and to improve my health.
The BMI is just a tool to help keep you healthier! If you don't like the scale or think it's right, then don't use it, it your life you can live it any way you want!
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