Finding it hard to cut caloric intake any more

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Replies

  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 14,222 Member
    edited September 2016
    Hi OP: this is essentially a post saying stay the course!

    You said that you secretly believe you've increased lean mass even at a deficit. While the consensus is that this is not possible, should it be the reality of what is happening, it would mean that you actual caloric deficit is significantly larger than what your rate of weight loss implies.

    Hence your hunger.

    And hence your not being able to optimise other than by counter-productively increasing the deficit, or by giving up on fitness in favour of increased weight loss--which would also be counter-productive!

    In support of this possibility I supply:

    --one dexa scan, name redacted, furnished by the operator who performed it, with the permission of the female who lost 21lbs while gaining 9lbs of lean mass over a period of 3 months: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ivy2PKgcqcUFRJbHJ6UWZKXzZJelVMYkpPcUc4a0RFalQ4/view?usp=sharing

    --and this interesting article I bookmarked a while back: http://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/

    The number on the scale is NOT the ONLY data point.
  • peacelovestone
    peacelovestone Posts: 20 Member
    edited September 2016
    Ok, a lot to take in and answer, but I am glad I came to this forum! So, as for @lightenup2016 we seem to be so similar! My kiddos are almost 6, one is 4, and the baby is 2 though. So I have a lot on my hands lol. But my TDEE is very similar as well. Using Fitbit's data, my TDEE over the last month is 2396 with 29 days of data averaged. According to Scooby's "Most Accurate Calorie Calculator" or whatever it's called, it should be just over 2300. Anyways, I know what you are saying about IF. I used to practice it after I stopped eating "keto," I naturally fell into it, and I'm not much of a breakfast person anyways. But I stopped doing it because I found that when I worked out in the mornings, which I try to do more often than not so that my brain doesn't say "No, I don't want to work out!" lol, I would feel lightheaded and not be able to push as hard if I did them fasted. But I do agree it was harder to "go over" what I wanted to eat/easier to condense my intake into 2 meals and 2 snacks vs. 3 meals & 3 snacks. Do you know anything to address that issue of fasted workouts if I attempt IF again?

    As for @Dano74, I should have been more clear about my intake. So, I eat within a range. I wouldn't say I follow intuitive eating, but I listen to my body, and some days, like say I push really hard that day and did a brutal weights session, I might feel really hungry that night or the next day and I eat more, and others I just don't feel like my body needs as much, so some days I eat less and others more, like caloric cycling, but I eat within a range of 1800-2000 and I always hit at least a certain target for fiber and protein like I said to a PP because I feel that's more important than my intake. Over the week, it averages out that I have a deficit. But whatever this deficit is, my body doesn't want to go lower it feels like. I tried to eat around 1500-1600 and it was awful. I felt awful. Apparently my BMR is 1500. So maybe that's why. Is it dangerous to try eating near that? That's my laying around, couch-potato, intake. Yet I'm far from that, so it feels my body SCREAMS for me to feed it :s when I eat like that.
    So as for above ^^^ my TDEE averaged at 2396 for a 4 week period according to the data I have. My intake for the same 4-week period averaged at 1950. So my deficit over 4 weeks was ~450/day. I've lost about 3 lbs in that time frame. Seems on target since my loss should have been about 3.5 with that deficit. I'm just not sure what to do from here I guess is what I'm saying. Stay the course, keep doing what I'm doing? Try to cut my intake slowly? Get more stringent with a strict calorie intake day to day instead of cycling? Play around with bringing it up? I've been dieting for about 10-11 months out of a 15 month period and now am in a healthy weight range for my height so it just seems it is getting harder and harder.
    Now as to bringing it up, I don't know that it's the answer but about 4 weeks ago, i had plateaued, and I was tired of reading all these articles saying "You're not tracking properly, you're lying to yourself" or "You need to push harder with your workouts" etc. -- I track religiously and am obsessive about getting it right, and I push myself really hard in the gym, changing routines when I'm bored, practicing progressive overload, etc. Two of the personal trainers at my gym joke that I'm a beast lol because I am always there working my butt off and doing burpees for fun and stuff haha. So I found two articles when this happened, one from Jillian Michaels and I forget what the other one was, but they actually said to bring up your intake for a few days or a week and then drop it again, (and there was a lot of scientific reasoning behind it that made sense to me) and you will break it, so I tried it, and I did break it! I mean I'm not sure that it applies now or what I should do right now, I haven't plateaued, just feeling like my weight loss is really slow where I'm at but finding it hard to suffer with eating near my BMR either.
  • peacelovestone
    peacelovestone Posts: 20 Member
    @PAV8888 I love what you posted! I read both and I'm in a similar position to that woman... I've lost a lot of body fat, made lean muscle gains, recomped my body, etc. but my weight loss has been slow. I have close friends that lose way faster than I do and it kills me when they say they lost 20 lbs in 4 months or something; I've lost 27 lbs with about 10 months of tracking and working out hard over a 15 month period (there was 4-5 months where I "gave up" because I plateaued and fell off the wagon, then got back on). I don't ever want to do that again, I was lucky to only gain 4 lbs in that time period -- which I had to then RE-lose -- and from my tracking some days, it should have been more that I gained, but maybe I was reverse dieting and fixing my metabolism because I have lost very steadily since! I wish I could put in a graph here. So maybe it was a welcome break for my body. But I don't want to lose what I've worked so hard for again and fitness helps me in so many ways, from keeping up with my kids, to anxiety. That article was really interesting too. I'll be staying the course for sure. Just trying to figure out how to fine-tune. B)
  • SusanMFindlay
    SusanMFindlay Posts: 1,804 Member
    I tried to eat around 1500-1600 and it was awful. I felt awful. Apparently my BMR is 1500. So maybe that's why. Is it dangerous to try eating near that? That's my laying around, couch-potato, intake. Yet I'm far from that, so it feels my body SCREAMS for me to feed it :s when I eat like that.
    So as for above ^^^ my TDEE averaged at 2396 for a 4 week period according to the data I have. My intake for the same 4-week period averaged at 1950. So my deficit over 4 weeks was ~450/day. I've lost about 3 lbs in that time frame. Seems on target since my loss should have been about 3.5 with that deficit. I'm just not sure what to do from here I guess is what I'm saying.

    I used the stats you posted earlier to calculate your BMI. It's 24.2. So, you're at a healthy weight. That means that you shouldn't be trying to lose more than 1 pound/week and probably not really more than 0.5 pounds/week. So, if you're burning 2300-2400 cals/day on average, you should be eating no less than 1800-1900 cals/day. The reason that your body gets cranky when you try to feed it only 1500-1600 cals/day is that that isn't enough for you.

    You need to stick the course. You don't have a lot of weight to lose, so you have to lose it slowly.
  • peacelovestone
    peacelovestone Posts: 20 Member
    I tried to eat around 1500-1600 and it was awful. I felt awful. Apparently my BMR is 1500. So maybe that's why. Is it dangerous to try eating near that? That's my laying around, couch-potato, intake. Yet I'm far from that, so it feels my body SCREAMS for me to feed it :s when I eat like that.
    So as for above ^^^ my TDEE averaged at 2396 for a 4 week period according to the data I have. My intake for the same 4-week period averaged at 1950. So my deficit over 4 weeks was ~450/day. I've lost about 3 lbs in that time frame. Seems on target since my loss should have been about 3.5 with that deficit. I'm just not sure what to do from here I guess is what I'm saying.

    I used the stats you posted earlier to calculate your BMI. It's 24.2. So, you're at a healthy weight. That means that you shouldn't be trying to lose more than 1 pound/week and probably not really more than 0.5 pounds/week. So, if you're burning 2300-2400 cals/day on average, you should be eating no less than 1800-1900 cals/day. The reason that your body gets cranky when you try to feed it only 1500-1600 cals/day is that that isn't enough for you.

    You need to stick the course. You don't have a lot of weight to lose, so you have to lose it slowly.

    I guess since I listen to my body it really knows what's best then. I'll stick it out!
  • lightenup2016
    lightenup2016 Posts: 1,055 Member
    Hi OP--You asked about IF and working out in the morning before eating. I have done both – – worked out fasted, and worked out in the afternoon sometime after eating. I guess I haven't really been able to tell a difference, or at least I don't seem to have a problem in the morning. I don't do strength exercises in the morning though, only walking or running. I do have coffee and a small piece of dark chocolate in the morning (total of about 100 calories, so not exactly fasting) so maybe that helps me? Or maybe try figuring out a way to work out later? I have run in our neighborhood in the dark after the kids have gone to bed, and we also have a treadmill at home. We actually have two treadmills at home – – one is my work treadmill desk that I use for walking, and the other is a running treadmill. This makes it a lot easier to get a workout anytime I can squeeze it in.
  • peacelovestone
    peacelovestone Posts: 20 Member
    edited October 2016
    Hi OP--You asked about IF and working out in the morning before eating. I have done both – – worked out fasted, and worked out in the afternoon sometime after eating. I guess I haven't really been able to tell a difference, or at least I don't seem to have a problem in the morning. I don't do strength exercises in the morning though, only walking or running. I do have coffee and a small piece of dark chocolate in the morning (total of about 100 calories, so not exactly fasting) so maybe that helps me? Or maybe try figuring out a way to work out later? I have run in our neighborhood in the dark after the kids have gone to bed, and we also have a treadmill at home. We actually have two treadmills at home – – one is my work treadmill desk that I use for walking, and the other is a running treadmill. This makes it a lot easier to get a workout anytime I can squeeze it in.

    Yeah, I don't think it bothers me so much if I do cardio... Today I did an hour of Zumba class fasted and that was fine, but doing weights fasted makes me feel weak and lightheaded. When I've done it at home (I have selectable dumbbells that go up to 50 lbs each dumbbell) I've actually stopped and gotten a protein shake and banana mid-training. I read a protocol for fasted training that said to use BCAAs and it should help, and I got those a month or two ago after I stopped doing IF, so maybe I could try that and see if it helps. I think it's because weights deplete your glycogen stores and cardio oxidizes fat instead, but I could be wrong.
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    From your description you seem knowledge and have a sensible diet plan. I'm guessing if you find and decrease in calories has you starving that you don't have much fat to lose and are just trying to get very lean? I think that's pretty normal that that last few pounds of loss is going to be slower and slower and tougher and tougher. If you aee still losing with what you are doing I'd stick with it and just accept it's going to take a while.

    If I'm wrong and your actually quite overweight then I'm not sure. Usually high protein high fiber helps but sounds like you already do that.
  • ugofatcat
    ugofatcat Posts: 385 Member
    Usually I think people aren't being honest with themselves about what they are eating and how much they are exercising, but you provided so much detail that I know you know what you are doing.

    You have lost a decent amount of weight plus you are weight lifting to build muscle, which might not show on the scale but it will show in your clothes. Honestly when I was lifting 3 times a week for an hour at about 70%+ my one rep max (combo of squats, deadlifts, snatches, cleans and then drills for each) the next day I was ravenous and would sometimes eat 3,000+ calories! But my weight (141-146 pounds) always stayed the same. I also noticed the day after eating so much I usually only ate 1,200-1,600 calories.

    Unfortunately the closer you get to your goal weight the harder it is to lose, simply because your deficit is smaller and smaller.

    I do have a thought, though. Do you eat distracted? Like in front of the TV or computer or with others? I notice when I eat distracted I still feel hungry and keep eating, but when I eat my meal and concentrate on it, taking small bites and putting my fork down between bites, I feel more full and can stop.
  • Chadxx
    Chadxx Posts: 1,199 Member
    Cutting the calories is actually pretty easy. It isn't about eating less, it is about eating right. Stick to lean meats and seafood and vegetables and you will have no problem getting full. You will also stay full since these foods won't have the yoyo effect on your blood sugar like refined carbs will.

    I started out at 320 pounds and have always had a ridiculous appetite but I have no problem staying under 2000 calories and staying full. I eat good sized meals and I still have plenty of calories left for my protein shake and some healthy snacks.
  • elisa123gal
    elisa123gal Posts: 4,324 Member
    For me, I notice some foods make me full and satisfied ..others make me hungry sooner or all day. Start keeping notes on what you're eating and how it satisfied and full it makes you feel I bet that does the trick..sounds like you're doing everything right and you are making progress. So that is wonderful.
  • peacelovestone
    peacelovestone Posts: 20 Member
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    From your description you seem knowledge and have a sensible diet plan. I'm guessing if you find and decrease in calories has you starving that you don't have much fat to lose and are just trying to get very lean? I think that's pretty normal that that last few pounds of loss is going to be slower and slower and tougher and tougher. If you aee still losing with what you are doing I'd stick with it and just accept it's going to take a while.

    If I'm wrong and your actually quite overweight then I'm not sure. Usually high protein high fiber helps but sounds like you already do that.

    I wouldn't say I'm "skinny" or anything, maybe not in my eyes at least, but I'm definitely in the last leg of my journey. I'm in the range of normal weights for my height, and a range of average body fat, although I'd just like to be leaner. I think that because I'm normal/average/whatever now, the process has to go slower, as people have suggested. A deficit of 500 is as low as my body wants to go right now. -750 leaves me ravenous with all the working out I do and is extremely close to my BMR, and I'm far from sedentary. I've just accepted like you said, it's gonna take a while. I might not hit my goal for 6 months. I just felt like you said, it gets slower and tougher. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and keep my eye on the prize! I appreciate all the comments.
  • peacelovestone
    peacelovestone Posts: 20 Member
    edited October 2016
    ugofatcat wrote: »
    Usually I think people aren't being honest with themselves about what they are eating and how much they are exercising, but you provided so much detail that I know you know what you are doing.

    You have lost a decent amount of weight plus you are weight lifting to build muscle, which might not show on the scale but it will show in your clothes. Honestly when I was lifting 3 times a week for an hour at about 70%+ my one rep max (combo of squats, deadlifts, snatches, cleans and then drills for each) the next day I was ravenous and would sometimes eat 3,000+ calories! But my weight (141-146 pounds) always stayed the same. I also noticed the day after eating so much I usually only ate 1,200-1,600 calories.

    Unfortunately the closer you get to your goal weight the harder it is to lose, simply because your deficit is smaller and smaller.

    I do have a thought, though. Do you eat distracted? Like in front of the TV or computer or with others? I notice when I eat distracted I still feel hungry and keep eating, but when I eat my meal and concentrate on it, taking small bites and putting my fork down between bites, I feel more full and can stop.

    I definitely have those days!! I keep a meticulous log and make sure it averages over the week, but yeah, I have days where I get ravenous from a hard lifting session and eat like 2300, not as much as you lol, but basically almost maintenance, and it wouldn't be junk and I know it's true hunger, I'd eat extra hard boiled eggs and maybe extra turkey & veggies, an apple, etc.; and I just listen to my body, and I know by now what's coming, because then the next day I end up only eating 1400 also listening to my body, but most days I eat in a range of 1800-2000, and my average with a month of data, even those odd maintenance days and then low days was ~1900, which with all my TDEE data for the month is -450 deficit. So that's about right. My weight has never gone up, and I've had success breaking plateaus. I don't know how to post a graph but my MFP "Progress" graph looks awesome, it goes consistently downward. And along the way my body has recomposed. I actually have gone from an obese body fat percentage & overweight last year to a normal weight this year, average range body fat, and added about 10 lbs of lean muscle mass. I've lost a pound since last week and am on target for -500 deficit for this week. I am just going to keep staying on course.

    I hear what you're saying about distractedness though. I'll try to pay attention to that. I don't do it so much, but I have more of times I have to shove in my meal because I have a 2, 4, and almost 6 year old and either someone is eating my food, fighting, we have somewhere to be, :# it can be hectic around here.
  • lightenup2016
    lightenup2016 Posts: 1,055 Member
    edited October 2016
    I'd also say it could be water retention from all your workouts. Here is my experience from this past week: I was recently in a weight loss stall for about 2 weeks. Then I got an overuse injury in my foot from all the running and walking workouts I was doing. I was also doing some free weights at home. Now I was forced to stop my running and walking workouts! Needless to say, I was trying not to panic about possibly gaining weight back! I knew I could no longer burn my average of 330 calories per day, so I dropped down to burning about 100 calories a day (easy on the stationary bike), and dropped my calorie intake by 200 calories as well. It's been a week of this, and I'm down 2 lbs on the scale. Lots of exercise = water retention! I also feel a lot better! I was worn out from all that exercise, and it was harder to keep under my calorie goal. This week, however, has been super easy, and I feel much better. Last night I was even under my calorie goal some, and so instead of doing my 100 calorie stationary bike workout, I just relaxed. We're both busy mamas--it takes a lot less time to skip a small snack than it does to do a workout! So anyway, I know you don't want to lose fitness, but maybe you could cut back for a week and see what happens?
  • Psychgrrl
    Psychgrrl Posts: 3,177 Member
    So, I think I can hit on a couple of things which may help.

    Food ... I eat many times a day. One of my favorites, and I keep these in a big container at work in my fridge, are my egg white muffins. 1/4 cup of egg whites, tiny serving of spinach, one turkey sausage link (chopped up) and 1/4 seeing of 2% cheddar (finely shredded). Bake at 350 for about 12 minutes and refrigerate. They reheat awesome in about a minute in the microwave at 70% power. I'm on my phone, and can't look at my diary, but they are 92 or 93 calories a piece. Loaded with protein and some healthy fat. Two keep me full for hours!

    I lift weights once a week in a marathon session (I do ashtanga yoga 4-5 times a week for 90 minutes which for me has made a huge difference in my body composition). During my weight session about 3 hours including warm up and cool down) I drink 1 scoop of isopure for two reasons: it has electrolytes and 20 grams of protein. The protein during doesn't interfere with the workout and is enough to keep me from feeling ravenous after. I sometimes use it during yoga as well--the classes are always tough, but there's one teacher that is awesomely creative with flows and holding poses.

    Some different food combos, may help you. Everyone's a little different with what satisfies them, but in general protein, fat and fiber work well for me. Lunch is sometimes 2 cups of broccoli, one chicken tender (Trader Joe's), half a serving of black beans (reduced sodium), maybe a little tofu and a serving of smart balance light. Or change the chicken for fish. Pack frozen, reheat in microwave at 70% power.

    For hunger satisfying combos--play a little and see what works. You'll find things that keep you within your calorie goal, but feeling less like you want to chew your own arm off (been there!).

    You've done great so far--now's the time you can find what really works for you!
  • ugofatcat
    ugofatcat Posts: 385 Member

    I definitely have those days!! I keep a meticulous log and make sure it averages over the week, but yeah, I have days where I get ravenous from a hard lifting session and eat like 2300, not as much as you lol, but basically almost maintenance, and it wouldn't be junk and I know it's true hunger, I'd eat extra hard boiled eggs and maybe extra turkey & veggies, an apple, etc.; and I just listen to my body, and I know by now what's coming, because then the next day I end up only eating 1400 also listening to my body, but most days I eat in a range of 1800-2000, and my average with a month of data, even those odd maintenance days and then low days was ~1900, which with all my TDEE data for the month is -450 deficit. So that's about right. My weight has never gone up, and I've had success breaking plateaus. I don't know how to post a graph but my MFP "Progress" graph looks awesome, it goes consistently downward. And along the way my body has recomposed. I actually have gone from an obese body fat percentage & overweight last year to a normal weight this year, average range body fat, and added about 10 lbs of lean muscle mass. I've lost a pound since last week and am on target for -500 deficit for this week. I am just going to keep staying on course.

    Since I stopped working out as much it has been much easier to stick to 1,800-2,200, closer to 1,800 most days. And I was the same as you when I was so hungry. I wanted real food- fruits, vegetables, nuts, plain greek yogurt, cheese, plain oatmeal, peanut butter, not anything that was devoid of nutrition.

  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    edited October 2016
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    From your description you seem knowledge and have a sensible diet plan. I'm guessing if you find and decrease in calories has you starving that you don't have much fat to lose and are just trying to get very lean? I think that's pretty normal that that last few pounds of loss is going to be slower and slower and tougher and tougher. If you aee still losing with what you are doing I'd stick with it and just accept it's going to take a while.

    If I'm wrong and your actually quite overweight then I'm not sure. Usually high protein high fiber helps but sounds like you already do that.

    I wouldn't say I'm "skinny" or anything, maybe not in my eyes at least, but I'm definitely in the last leg of my journey. I'm in the range of normal weights for my height, and a range of average body fat, although I'd just like to be leaner. I think that because I'm normal/average/whatever now, the process has to go slower, as people have suggested. A deficit of 500 is as low as my body wants to go right now. -750 leaves me ravenous with all the working out I do and is extremely close to my BMR, and I'm far from sedentary. I've just accepted like you said, it's gonna take a while. I might not hit my goal for 6 months. I just felt like you said, it gets slower and tougher. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and keep my eye on the prize! I appreciate all the comments.

    Getting lean is considerably harder than getting from overweight to healthy bodyweight so what you are experiencing is I think common experience and yeah, just have to stick with it. I think a mistake would be to try to go more extreme in your diet and put yourself into a place of discomfort.
  • ugofatcat
    ugofatcat Posts: 385 Member
    I also wanted to add that I think you are doing great and I wish losing weight wasn't such a long drawn out process, but I having a feeling you are going to be very successful. :)
  • SLLRunner
    SLLRunner Posts: 12,942 Member
    I don't have any idea of how to post pictures on this forum if allowed? But my Instagram is coffee.and.barbells if you'd like to see my recomposition and weight loss.

    I just viewed your instagram photos. You are doing spectacular. Be patient, and keep up the good work!

    What keeps me more full than anything else is fiber.