October (2016) Running Challenge

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  • lporter229
    lporter229 Posts: 4,907 Member
    edited October 2016
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    @MNLittleFinn- My take on Fitzgerald's plans is this: Find that plan that fits your level and use it for your speed work sessions. Fill in the blanks with the easy runs and long runs, doing the time and distance that you think best fits where you are with your running. At least that's what I did and it seemed to work for me. I followed his guidelines for long runs that included some speed play as well, but I often tacked on a mile or two here and there if I felt I could.

    ETA: His plans also have a lot of two a days that I often combined into one longer session, mostly because making the time for two separate sessions rarely makes the most efficient use of my time.
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
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    lporter229 wrote: »
    @MNLittleFinn- My take on Fitzgerald's plans is this: Find that plan that fits your level and use it for your speed work sessions. Fill in the blanks with the easy runs and long runs, doing the time and distance that you think best fits where you are with your running. At least that's what I did and it seemed to work for me. I followed his guidelines for long runs that included some speed play as well, but I often tacked on a mile or two here and there if I felt I could.

    ETA: His plans also have a lot of two a days that I often combined into one longer session, mostly because making the time for two separate sessions rarely makes the most efficient use of my time.

    Awesome. That sounds good to me. I was actually wondering about just using the plan for the fast work, since that seems to be where I tend to get out of the right HR zone more, and running everything else easy, and make the miles what I feel I need.
  • 5512bf
    5512bf Posts: 389 Member
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    @MNLittleFinn

    I think for your first marathon even with 18, 20 or 22 mile long run the last part of the race will suck. I did 2 20's my first time around and still really struggled from 21 on. The second time I did more miles still doing 2 20's and really struggled from 21 on. This time around I did 2 20's, a 21 & 22 but did much more middle distance work during the week of 12-15 miles. Some weeks I'd have 4 runs that totaled over 10 miles. Every Wednesday during the guts of the plan I'd be doing 14 or 15, plus a 16-22 long run. The long run is still important but doing those middle distance runs during the week I believe was the key to being able to maintain pace and finish strong.

    My personal gut feeling is you'd want at least a 20 mile run in there 3-4 weeks out from the race. I know my first time around it was a major confidence booster. I actually didn't even sign up for the race until I did that first 20 seven weeks out from the race.
  • Ohhim
    Ohhim Posts: 1,142 Member
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    @MNLittleFinn - Definitely a fan of the Garmin Fitzgerald plans, as they are programmed into watches (once you download from garmin connect and drop onto your watch - as even the $150 Forerunner 225 or better works with them), as they work by time / intensity and not necessarily distance which helps when it gets hot/humid out. Still, I definitely ignore his time requirement for my long runs, and try to get in at least 5+ 18+ mile runs and haven't crashed at the 20 mark since doing that, although I may have just been getting better at both pacing, are getting fast enough that my glycogen stores last me longer, or I'm getting better at carbo-loading & in-race nutrition.
  • mom3over40
    mom3over40 Posts: 253 Member
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    greenolivetree wrote: »
    I had a good run this morning and felt like things are finally turning around. It was chilly and I started out running with no walk warmup, although I'd been warming up inside with knee hugs/kicks/sidesteps/etc. No pain whatsoever. I kept telling myself to take it easy but I still ended up running 10:25/9:42/9:25/9:12 splits. A little slower than the last run but I wish I could figure out how to run a steady pace sometimes instead of always increasing speed each mile. I want to start increasing my distance again (finally, after all this knee ordeal) and I don't want to wear myself out the first few miles since I've gotten used to shorter runs :-/

    Negative splits, I thought that's what everyone should work on, no? I just read this blog post from Strava:

    http://blog.strava.com/negative-split-positive-results-12386/?utm_source=strava&utm_medium=mktgemail&utm_campaign=2016_10_06_October_Newsletter_Run
  • louubelle16
    louubelle16 Posts: 579 Member
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    I had a nice run today around my favourite place, but my hip is still a bit unhappy. I'm going for a massage next week but I think I also need to admit that I will not be running my next HM in just over 2 weeks. I'll decide in a few more days, but it just doesn't seem worth it right now. Plus, it interferes with my Mum coming to stay (she didn't ask if I was free that weekend, she just booked the time off work and then told me), so I'm really not sure it's worth it. We'll see though.

    Now to read back a few pages and catch up :)

    October Running Challenge

    2nd - 13.19 miles
    5th - 3.01 miles
    6th - 3.14 miles
    8th - 3.05 miles
    9th - 5.22 miles
    11th - 3.11 miles
    13th - 5.24 miles

    MTD - 35.96/80 miles

    Upcoming races:
    30th Oct - River Thames Half Marathon
    17th Dec - Lee Valley VeloPark Half Marathon
    9th April 2017 - Brighton Marathon
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    So, I was looking at the Fitzgerald full marathon training plan level 1. I noticed that it has no 20 mile runs in it. it tops out at 18, from what I can see. Anyone use this plan before? I'm just looking at it for reference, but was curious, if someone has used it, how well it works, since most plans seem to have at least one 20 mile run.

    I have not read his book or studied his plan personally. But from what I remember about others commenting on it, the plan is pretty intense and is designed for more advanced runners. I am told that he has a lot of harder workouts like tempos and repeats and what not to make up the lack of distance. Its one of those "run faster - fewer miles" plans.

  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
    edited October 2016
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    kristinegift wrote: »
    my brain is dumb before the coffee kicks in.

    #1 that's why I pack EVERYTHING the night before.
    #2 my brain being dumb before the coffee kicks in becomes an advantage. If I have a hard workout or a mountain run planned, I am already out and running by the time it sinks in that I actually have to do it.

    BTW @7lenny7 I love Larry.
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
    edited October 2016
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    @lporter229 thanks for that input. I'm very confident that no matter how long my last long run is, the last miles of my first full will totally suck. For me, a Marathon is just one of those "hey, I ran a marathon" kind of things, with no other goals, unlike HM and shorter, where I really want to run faster....I'm not one of the few who will ever BQ

    @Ohhim Thanks for mentioning the Garmin plans, I took a look at them again the level 2 HR based plan, with 5 workouts/week fits pretty well with my current 6 run a week schedule, but with the built in crosstraining/stretching/weights, might actually help me more, since I've been bad about doing the other exercising. Edit: oh, yeah, for the interval exercises, how well did it work as far as cardiac lag? Just wondering because the workouts are time based, and it can take a bit to get the HR back down....

    @Stoshew71 I actually have the book in front of me....LOL.... looks like his level 2 plan has 2 hard workout days, plus long run, but it's a 7 run a week plan with the other 4 runs at easy or recovery pace. Not necessarily the one I'd look at planning off of, just thought it was interesting that he doesn't include 20 mile runs until the level 3 plan, and that one has a LOT of 2 a day workouts....NOT something I'd be ready for for a long time.

    Second Edit: @Ohhim again, that was an awesome race report.
  • kathyk519
    kathyk519 Posts: 197 Member
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    HI - Sorry I am a little late to start the challenge. I am not training for anything in particular - I just ran a couple of 5ks a couple of weekends ago and have no other races scheduled until the end of November. I am just trying to stay motivated and up my usual mileage for a given run. Up until a few weeks ago, my usual run was a couple of miles, and my "long runs" would be around 3 - 3.5. I have tried to up those so that my normal runs are about 3 to 4 miles. I hope to run at least 2 to 3 days a week after work (outside).

    My goal will be 40 miles for October.

    10/4 - 5 miles
    10/5 - 3.67 miles
    10/7 - 3.67 miles
    10/12 - 3.97 miles

    total so far - 16.31 miles
  • greenolivetree
    greenolivetree Posts: 1,282 Member
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    mom3over40 wrote: »
    greenolivetree wrote: »
    I had a good run this morning and felt like things are finally turning around. It was chilly and I started out running with no walk warmup, although I'd been warming up inside with knee hugs/kicks/sidesteps/etc. No pain whatsoever. I kept telling myself to take it easy but I still ended up running 10:25/9:42/9:25/9:12 splits. A little slower than the last run but I wish I could figure out how to run a steady pace sometimes instead of always increasing speed each mile. I want to start increasing my distance again (finally, after all this knee ordeal) and I don't want to wear myself out the first few miles since I've gotten used to shorter runs :-/

    Negative splits, I thought that's what everyone should work on, no? I just read this blog post from Strava:

    http://blog.strava.com/negative-split-positive-results-12386/?utm_source=strava&utm_medium=mktgemail&utm_campaign=2016_10_06_October_Newsletter_Run

    Yes, you are absolutely right and I am proud of my frequent negative splits. As a new runner, I ran positive splits and worked hard to turn that around. I just wish my splits were closer together I guess? Because once I get up to that 9-9:30 pace I can't sustain it long :-p
  • Ohhim
    Ohhim Posts: 1,142 Member
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    Got in an easy slow shakeout run this afternoon in the sun, as I figured the heat may help my legs warm up and avoid too much soreness. Left quad and calf were both a bit sore, but no pain, so I'll give another run a shot on Saturday before getting in something longer on Sunday. Definitely feeling much better than Monday/Tuesday, but have a bit to go before I'll be feeling back to 100%.

    10/1 - 5 miles (w. 5x800s @ 6:00 pace)
    10/2 - 8 miles (finished at MP)
    10/3 - 4 miles
    10/4 - 4 miles
    10/5 - 4 miles
    10/8 - 3 miles
    10/9 - 26.2 miles (3:04:57 - Chicago marathon)
    10/13 - 4 miles

    Total: 58 miles
    Goal: 140 miles
    Remaining: 82 miles

    2016 Race Schedule:
    Disney Marathon - Jan 6 - 3:29:09
    Gasparilla 15K - Feb 20 - 1:01:59
    Ironman 70.3 Florida - Apr 10 - 5:07:51
    Pittsburgh Marathon - May 1 - 3:08:25
    Ironman 70.3 Augusta - Sep 25 - 4:43:56
    Chicago Marathon - Oct 9 - 3:04:57
    Ironman Florida - Nov 5
    Rock 'n Roll Las Vegas 10K - Nov 13

    @MNLittleFinn - Usually when doing more threshold+ HR range intervals, it took me about 30 seconds-1 minute to settle into my next heart rate, so aside from the usual annoying watch beeping for that period, it worked out OK. The big plus for doing more heart-rate based plans was that they dynamically adjusted your pace as you got fitter (as you just needed to hit "zone 2 for 15 minutes"), they were always feasible even if you were having an off day (as long as you weren't injured) or if it was too hot to hit a prescribed pace (my biggest problem with Pftiz/JD pace style plans as when it is 90 degrees w. 90% humidity here in the Florida summertime, doing something at a T-pace for X miles is a guaranteed recipe for heat stroke and long term damage but doing something at a T-heart rate range for 10 minutes is safer - as most tables that suggest adjustments for temperature changes fail miserably once humidity gets high and the body loses its ability to cool itself from sweating).
  • skippygirlsmom
    skippygirlsmom Posts: 4,433 Member
    edited October 2016
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    @beeerrunner ouch!
    @respectthekitty what @lporter229 said on the dressing for the weather. :grin:
  • MobyCarp
    MobyCarp Posts: 2,927 Member
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    October Running Totals (miles)
    10/1 – rest day
    10/2 – 0.56 test run (big mistake)
    10/3 – no running day
    10/4 – no running day
    10/5 – no running day
    10/6 – no running day
    10/7 – no running day
    10/8 – no running day
    10/9 – no running day
    10/10 –no running day
    10/11 – 0.55 run/walk intervals
    10/12 – rest day
    10/13 – 0.56 run/walk intervals

    October total to date – 1.67

    Nominal Challenge Goal – no stated distance
    Real Goal: Return to regular running

    Today's notes gimp report – After Tuesday's intervals, the bad Achilles was just a tiny bit worse on Wednesday morning. It wasn't enough to mean I couldn't do anything, but I had a lot of sedentary stuff to occupy me on Wednesday anyway. I ended up deciding an extra rest day, not even getting 10K walking steps, wouldn't hurt me and might help.

    Then this morning I felt almost totally *normal*. Jogging the hallway while the eggs cooked was enough to prove I'm not all better, but wasn't really a problem. Took my time with leisurely morning, and got in all the PT and supportive exercises I do. (Most days some of them don't get done, and I try to not miss the same ones every day.) After lunch, with the morning rain gone, the sun shining, and the temperature 61° F (16° C), I set out with the plan of doing intervals of run 2 minutes, walk 1 minute. I guessed I could do two sets of that, maybe three if I was really a lot better.

    The first few steps of the first 2 minute run were enough to demonstrate that I won't be running a race, or even an easy few miles, on Saturday. The interval was okay. Took my walking minute, turned around, and ran back toward home. At 60 seconds, I thought about cutting it short. At 90 seconds, I admitted it didn't have a full 4 minutes of running in the leg today. Walked some more, ended up with 0.56 miles total, 0.44 of it on the running intervals. And my Achilles ached, and my shin ached; but they didn't ache enough to keep me from walking around the house, and standing to do some chores in the kitchen. As I write this, the aches have faded and my leg feels normal.

    Tomorrow morning I'll find out if this set me back. My sense right now is that if it set me back, it didn't set me back far enough to worry a lot about. I'm also thinking my chance of being able to keep the 5K on October 22 is less than 50%. Still, even being able to run a couple test intervals is better than not being able to run at all.

    2016 races:
    January 1, 2016 Resolution Run 7.5 mile (Mendon, NY) finished in 53:58
    January 9, 2016 Winter Warrior Half Marathon (Gates, NY) finished in 1:30:59
    March 12, 2016 Johnny's Runnin' of the Green 5 mile (Rochester, NY) finished in 32:32
    March 26, 2016 Spring Forward Distance Run 15K (Mendon, NY) finished in 1:05:24
    April 18, 2016 Boston Marathon (Hopkinton, MA) finished in 3:23:01
    April 24, 2016 Flower City Challenge Half Marathon (Rochester, NY) finished in 1:36:50, targeting MP
    May 15, 2016 Highland Hospital Lilac Run 10K (Rochester, NY) DNS - injury
    June 19, 2016 Medved 5K to Cure ALS (Rochester, NY) DNS - recovering from face plant
    July 16, 2016 Shoreline Half Marathon (Hamlin, NY) finished in 1:31:11
    August 13, 2016 Bergen Road Race 5K (Bergen, NY) finished in 19:07 (5K PR)
    September 4, 2016 Oak Tree Half Marathon (Geneseo, NY) finished in 1:31:37
    September 18, 2016 Rochester Marathon (Rochester, NY) DNF a mile from finish
    October 15, 2016 Finish Strong 15K (Hilton, NY) DNS – Achilles tendonitis
    October 22, 2016 Scare Brain Cancer Away 5K (East Rochester, NY)
    November 24, 2016 Race with Grace 10K (Hilton, NY)

    2017 races:
    January 7, 2017 Winter Warrior Half Marathon (Gates, NY)
    April 17, 2017 Boston Marathon (Hopkinton, MA)
  • Elise4270
    Elise4270 Posts: 8,375 Member
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    1---3.17 walk/run ish
    2---2.7 walk
    3---travel day, Dallas PT
    4---4.7 walk
    5---rest
    6---4.04 walk
    7---0.6 walk
    8---rest
    9---state fair walk, 1+ miles
    10---3.36
    11---pt appointment
    12---sore/rest
    13---35 minutes bike trainer/2.45 TM walk/few weights

    Productive day :smiley:

    22.02/50+ walking miles goal


    Not Advisable races:
    11/05/16 Jenks Half 5k Jenks OK (registered)
    12/11/16 BMW Dallas Marathon, Half (registered)
    Run the year 2016  898.42/ 2016 (registered)

    Advisable races:
    March 19th 2017 RNR Half Dallas, TX
    March 26th 2017 A2A 5k Ardmore, OK
    April 30th 2017 OKC Memorial Marathon, Half
  • kristinegift
    kristinegift Posts: 2,406 Member
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    @Ohhim Amazing race report! And congrats on a killer BQ time. Could your lack of euphoria/elation be partially due to the fact that you still have a major race coming up? Whenever I have an amazing race during marathon training, I'm not SUPER excited about it because I know there's still a lot of hard work ahead.
  • Ohhim
    Ohhim Posts: 1,142 Member
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    kristinegift wrote: »
    @Ohhim Amazing race report! And congrats on a killer BQ time. Could your lack of euphoria/elation be partially due to the fact that you still have a major race coming up? Whenever I have an amazing race during marathon training, I'm not SUPER excited about it because I know there's still a lot of hard work ahead.

    I think you are onto something. Either that, or racing my prior marathon in an awesome costume & bib number really pumped me up, none of which happened when just racing in a non-descript tank top and a bib without my name on it in Chicago. Also, given the size of the race and number of faster runners, I didn't feel like folks were necessarily cheering for me, as there were crowds of racers around me for the full race.
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    @Stoshew71 I actually have the book in front of me....LOL.... looks like his level 2 plan has 2 hard workout days, plus long run, but it's a 7 run a week plan with the other 4 runs at easy or recovery pace. Not necessarily the one I'd look at planning off of, just thought it was interesting that he doesn't include 20 mile runs until the level 3 plan, and that one has a LOT of 2 a day workouts....NOT something I'd be ready for for a long time.

    So why doesn't Fitzgerald have a 20 mile long run? Again, I don't have his book or studied his plans too closely. But my gut feel is this: this may be related to a shared philosophy that I heard from Jack Daniels' (reference his video below). That the idea that there is no physiological benefit to running your long run after you run a certain number of hours (2.5 hours in the case of Dr. Daniels). And by running any further, you risk injury or overtraining. Maybe Fitzgerald calculated that most beginners can only tolerate up to 18 miles which may or may not take 3 or more hours (depending on what your comfortable long run pace is).

    Even though there may not be a physiological benefit, many will argue (including myself) that there is a great mental boost and sense of confidence to get a 20 miler in. I will also argue that there are a lot of people attempting to train for a marathon that have no business training for one. Now that does not mean I discourage someone from attempting or have a goal to train for a marathon. But I do believe that you should build up to a certain level of fitness before you attempt to train for one. I will also argue that running a marathon is easy compared to training for one. If you don't care how long you take, you can quite safely run/walk (or mostly walk) 26.2 miles, but it may take you 8 or 9 hours to do that. But if you have a 6 hour time limit, you are going to have to train for it. Doing high mileage week after week requires dedication and a certain level of fitness. But if you work at it and plan it out correctly, that shouldn't scare you. It just means understanding your limits and know what you can do this year, and that if you continue to train and remain injury free, you will be in so much better fitness next year to accomplish a certain goal. I am not saying that you @MNLittleFinn are not ready to train for a marathon. That is just general guidance for anyone that may be reading this. Again (as I relayed to you in an earlier post) if you work on increasing both your weekly and long run mileage now in such a way to remain injury free (i.e. do most of your runs at a nice easy comfortable pace) you will be more prepared for your first marathon next year than I was when I ran my first marathon.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO1hQ_kplgo

  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
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    @Stoshew71 I'm still reading the book, so I haven't seen why he doesn't have a 20 mile run in the plan. Funny part is, the level 2 plan is for people who have some experience running marathons, yet there's no 20 miler. I mainly got the book, not for the plans but, for the info on 80/20 itself, I'm pretty fascinated by reading the more sciencey stuff on running too.

    On a side note, the time limit for the marathon that I'll be considering is 6 hours. My general plan is to build up my mileage over this winter with ALL slow, zone 2 running, which keeps me in the ~10:30/mile range. Ideally, I'd like to keep/increase that pace as I build mileage so that, (hopefully)by the time my June HM training starts at the end of February, my z2 pace will be a little faster.

    The marathon falls under an "if I meet X, Y, and Z goals, I'll sign up." X will be running for the entire June HM....It was no good knocking 10 minutes off my HM PR a few weeks ago, but still having to walk. Beyond that, I haven't set other goals to meet before signing up...I'm kind of trying to find ways to make it harder to give myself the go ahead....mainly to be sure I'm ready.

    Sorry, long response...When I start typing, I start thinking, and that leads to more typing.
  • katharmonic
    katharmonic Posts: 5,720 Member
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    @ohhim - great race report. Really interesting to read your thoughts. I was surprised you wake up and fuel in the during the night before. Congratulations on a great race.

    Date :::: Miles :::: Oct total (goal 50)
    10/1 :::: 5.8 :::: 5.8
    10/2 :::: 2.8 :::: 8.6
    10/3 :::: 2.2 :::: 10.8
    10/4 :::: 3.1 :::: 13.9
    10/5 :::: 0.0 :::: 13.9
    10/6 :::: 2.2 :::: 16.1
    10/7 :::: 0.0 :::: 16.1
    10/8 :::: 1.2 :::: 17.3
    10/9 :::: 13.1 :::: 30.4
    10/10:::: Rest :::: 30.4 walk Stella
    10/11::: Rest :::: 30.4 walk Stella
    10/12:::: Rest :::: 30.4 walk Stella
    10/13:::: Rest :::: 30.4 swim 20 minutes

    Today I made it to the pool and did 20 minutes of easy lap swimming and then sat in the jacuzzi for 10 minutes. It felt really good. My right leg still feels a little twingey from Sunday's half. All up and down the back, calf and hamstring. It helps to stretch it out but it still isn't quite normal.

    Stella is making some progress on walking on a leash. We are getting farther on our walks each time, but still lots of stopping every time she pulls. Today she also seemed to get "down" and "leave it" so I'm pretty proud of her. She's a quick learner, with a side of crazy. :)

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