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Bariatric surger the only option

Okohme
Okohme Posts: 152 Member
edited November 13 in Debate Club
I made a lot of headway in dieting and exercising and almost stopped when I first read the 95% stat. You know what I mean. :/
So, not to beat a dead horse but here's this topic again, sort of.
I've done a lot of reading on the issue of metabolic damage and one of the things that really stood out to me was the whole "The NIH recognized bariatric (weight-loss) surgery as the only effective treatment to combat severe obesity and maintain weight loss in the long term."
I've seen that reiterated in a number of ways, sometimes omitting the portion about sever obesity. Is it just me, or does it seem somewhat suspect that the ONLY recognized method is a dangerous, invasive surgery? I'm not saying it doesn't work, I know people for whom it HAS worked. But the ONLY method......?
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Replies

  • zyxst
    zyxst Posts: 9,149 Member
    DisruptedMatrix wrote: »
    What is the first 95% stat? :o

    That 95% of people who lose weight gain it back, if not more.
  • MissusMoon
    MissusMoon Posts: 1,900 Member
    zyxst wrote: »
    DisruptedMatrix wrote: »
    What is the first 95% stat? :o

    That 95% of people who lose weight gain it back, if not more.

    That state came from a low protein diet study in 1959. The stat is still high at 80, and that's because people tend to give up on the eating habits that caused the weight loss in the first place.
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    edited November 2016
    Jimb376mfp wrote: »
    I'm a 68 yo who was overweight from my late 20s. I lost and regained many times.
    in 2012 When I got up to 376# I considered WLS but was afraid of it and the aftermath.
    I joined WW Jan 2013 and have lost -145#. I have changed my lifestyle and know I can live this way the rest of my life. I'm still losing (slowly) and have not gained back any weight during the past four years.
    IT CAN BE DONE but it's not easy. I agree with @JoeCWV and @ElvenToad and their POV.

    Totally brilliant :flowerforyou:
  • stealthq
    stealthq Posts: 4,298 Member
    edited November 2016
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    usmcmp wrote: »
    I know several people who had bariatric surgery. They all gained the weight back. The surgery reduces the size of your stomach and limits the amount of food your stomach can hold at once, which naturally forces you to eat less. You still have to learn effective habits because you can stretch it back out, meaning you wasted all that money and time for nothing.

    All weight loss, surgical or otherwise, relies on continuing positive habits after the extra weight is gone. You can take the time to learn them as you lose or you can be forced into a situation where you have to learn them immediately. The conversations I have had with those who gained it all back showed that they didn't take time to fix the mental part of it and that when they lost the weight the second time they made sure to fix how they saw things and approached food the second time around.

    I know three people who had the surgery. Only one has been successful at maintaining her loss.

    She's the only one who from the start acknowledged that she had to make sweeping changing to her whole lifestyle and relationship with food and worked hard to do just that.

    The other two started looking for ways to game the whole thing as soon as they could. They were just looking for a quick fix and never acknowledged the part they played in their problem.

    Similar story here. I know four people who've had it done (various types of procedures). It's been about 3 yrs since the most recent one I know about and none have kept it off.

    One ended up back in the hospital with systemic organ failure. He recovered and is mostly back to normal, health-wise. The best explanation the doctors were able to come up with was a combination of malnutrition and a low-grade infection from surgery that turned into much more as the months passed. This guy either did not get any advice on how to eat after surgery or he threw it all out the window from day one. Hard to tell.

    Two went the more common route of losing about 60-70% of what they needed to get to a healthy weight and then started putting it back on when their stomach stretched back out and they weren't so careful about their diets anymore, although they will tell you they are still eating the way they were. It is obvious that both are now eating much more volume at a sitting than they were even remotely capable of months after surgery. We're talking at least 3x more - which is why the weight creeps back on. One of these two was just prescribed a doctor-recommended VLCD because his weight is starting to cause heart issues.

    The fourth went the route of losing everything he wanted to lose, and gaining every bit of it back. This guy used to be an athlete. More than a hobbyist, but not a pro. A bicyclist and very lean and muscled - the last person you would have thought would have 1) gained enough to be morbidly obese, 2) had surgery to lose it given he knew how to lose that weight already, and 3) gain it all back again. Then, although we didn't know this at the time, he decided to do something about the fact he was unhappy with his marriage and ready for a change. Guess what - now that he had plenty of motivation, he dieted and exercised the way he already knew how to do and was down to healthy and well muscled again pretty quickly. Then he divorced his wife, who had stuck with him through the whole mess for a younger woman. :headdesk:
  • panda4153
    panda4153 Posts: 418 Member
    You are correct it is not the only way to lose weight and keep it off. I think that it probably comes down to how often it occurs though. Please also keep in mind it is specifically saying severe obesity. I think everything should be looked at in context. Your statement "The NIH recognized bariatric (weight-loss) surgery as the only effective treatment to combat severe obesity and maintain weight loss in the long term." is stemming from some very specific studies, but of course most weight loss places and practitioners leave that part out. There is also a ton of anecdotal evidence that we all have, hence the I knew someone who....(insert did/did not) I would like to know more about what context that original statement is being made in and the details around the studies before forming my opinion about that statement. Its possible that traditional methods of WL for severely obese fail at such a high rate that it is deemed ineffective. Not because it doesn't actually work but because so few are successful with it. That of course comes down to personal accountability which is a whole other debate. You also mention the health risks of surgery which are very valid. However, its possible that in cases where surgery is truly warranted other health risks outweigh those. Surgery is definitely not for me. However, while at one point in my life i was in the obese category, I was never severely or morbidly obese. I did not worry about not waking up because the weight on my organs was too much. I do not feel it is my place to discount how surgery could help individuals in that case.
  • CSARdiver
    CSARdiver Posts: 6,252 Member
    My boss had this surgery back in February this year and immediately dropped 20 lbs. He never increased his motion and never changed his eating habits. He is now at the same weight he was before trending heavier.

    At the same point - my team and I moved into a new building with a small gym. We stopped taking lunches and instead workout daily and then eating at our desks. We have all lost weight and establishing good habits which have a much higher chance of succeeding long term.
  • Spliner1969
    Spliner1969 Posts: 3,233 Member
    kommodevaran wrote: »
    Don't ask a hairdresser if you need a haircut?

    There's your hint "....bariatric (weight-loss) surgery as the only effective treatment...". Surgery. Invasive medical intervention. There may be no other type of "invasive medical treatment" that works as well. That might even be a true statement. However, not everyone (most people in fact) do not need "invasive medical treatment" to fix their weight problem. They simply want a quick fix, and again.. if you ask a surgeon what his answer would be, the answer is usually going to be.. wait for it.. surgery.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    stealthq wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    usmcmp wrote: »
    I know several people who had bariatric surgery. They all gained the weight back. The surgery reduces the size of your stomach and limits the amount of food your stomach can hold at once, which naturally forces you to eat less. You still have to learn effective habits because you can stretch it back out, meaning you wasted all that money and time for nothing.

    All weight loss, surgical or otherwise, relies on continuing positive habits after the extra weight is gone. You can take the time to learn them as you lose or you can be forced into a situation where you have to learn them immediately. The conversations I have had with those who gained it all back showed that they didn't take time to fix the mental part of it and that when they lost the weight the second time they made sure to fix how they saw things and approached food the second time around.

    I know three people who had the surgery. Only one has been successful at maintaining her loss.

    She's the only one who from the start acknowledged that she had to make sweeping changing to her whole lifestyle and relationship with food and worked hard to do just that.

    The other two started looking for ways to game the whole thing as soon as they could. They were just looking for a quick fix and never acknowledged the part they played in their problem.

    Similar story here. I know four people who've had it done (various types of procedures). It's been about 3 yrs since the most recent one I know about and none have kept it off.

    One ended up back in the hospital with systemic organ failure. He recovered and is mostly back to normal, health-wise. The best explanation the doctors were able to come up with was a combination of malnutrition and a low-grade infection from surgery that turned into much more as the months passed. This guy either did not get any advice on how to eat after surgery or he threw it all out the window from day one. Hard to tell.

    Two went the more common route of losing about 60-70% of what they needed to get to a healthy weight and then started putting it back on when their stomach stretched back out and they weren't so careful about their diets anymore, although they will tell you they are still eating the way they were. It is obvious that both are now eating much more volume at a sitting than they were even remotely capable of months after surgery. We're talking at least 3x more - which is why the weight creeps back on. One of these two was just prescribed a doctor-recommended VLCD because his weight is starting to cause heart issues.

    The fourth went the route of losing everything he wanted to lose, and gaining every bit of it back. This guy used to be an athlete. More than a hobbyist, but not a pro. A bicyclist and very lean and muscled - the last person you would have thought would have 1) gained enough to be morbidly obese, 2) had surgery to lose it given he knew how to lose that weight already, and 3) gain it all back again. Then, although we didn't know this at the time, he decided to do something about the fact he was unhappy with his marriage and ready for a change. Guess what - now that he had plenty of motivation, he dieted and exercised the way he already knew how to do and was down to healthy and well muscled again pretty quickly. Then he divorced his wife, who had stuck with him through the whole mess for a younger woman. :headdesk:

    To be fair, it took something similar to your last statement for me to get my *kitten* back together and resume fat loss.

    My ex-wife and I went through the initial "let's unfat ourselves" together, both of us doing very well, and by any metric, she better than me. She won several transformation contests, a couple of powerlifting tournaments, and overall did excellent on her drop from 190 to 120. I, on the other hand did fine, but not great. 265 to 185, and decent strength increases, but nothing to write home about.

    Well, once we hit maintenance mode, I held between 185 and 190 for three years, but she completely lost control of herself and regained it all and then some. Now, in and of itself, this wasn't too big of an issue. What was an issue was the fact thay her getting fat again put her into such a negative funk that she became insufferable. Every other day she would whine about beinf fat, and I would tell her "you already know what you need to do, and you've done it before, so just get at it". That would always garner a response loaded with excuses, and she'd shove more ice cream into her face.

    After a couple of years of this, I was just exhausted and done. I had started to creep back up on the scale myself, but as soon as I got near 200 again, I knew what I needed to do, and I did it. I purged the negativity and went on a massive hellcut from 195 to 150 within a few months. Interestingly, since we separated, she has gotten herself back together as well. There was just something there that was making both of us miserable, and our bodies were showing it.
  • Fuzzipeg
    Fuzzipeg Posts: 2,301 Member
    In my preferred world there would be an alternative but the medical profession are not with me on this one.

    I would make it mandatory that anyone with any chronic condition has the full range of thyroid blood tests taken to identify if those poor people who do not have a reasonable level of t3 in their blood. T3 is the active form of thyroid hormone. Having a good level of t3 of its own will not ensure a person has t3 in their cells but it goes a long way to discovering what is going on in a body and at the present time is never taken into consideration. If I ask my doctor to test my t3 I am looked at as if I have left the planet. If you are considered for treatment on tsh and t4 numbers it is assumed you will automatically convert t4 to t3.....................

    Thyroid support sites list some 300 different symptoms which are attribute to thyroid related malfunctions within the endocrine system. Trying to cluster different terms under key words, the digestive system prepares our food to be taken into our bodies, to do this it takes digestive acid and microbes, to eliminate our byproducts and toxins etc, we also need more different microbes. As we age our bodies make less digestive acid, also if we constantly over feed ourselves it cant keep up in part because we no longer eat foods with bitter tastes. Our digestive microbes come under attack from medications frequently prescribed to help us, primarily antibiotics which kill bacteria indiscriminately the beneficial and problematic microbes. Other medications such as the aspirin also compromise the beneficial bacteria. How often are we told this. I have had to find out for myself. Often because of our modern diet many of us are deficient in essential minerals or have them out of balance. Some of us still have amalgam fillings which contain mercury a major toxin. Many females can have an excess of copper in their bodies from the use of contraceptive implants which use copper to kill sperm. Those on the pill any form can also have problems because the reproductive cycles are blocked. Toxins make the liver work much harder to eliminate them, and contribute to allergies and intolerance's.

    To continue on the reproduction issue, t3 governs the female reproductive cycle. T3 is also essential for every cell to ensure accurate replication. T3 is needed for our brains, many texts refers to t3 as the brain hormone. How many people who have mental health problems do not feel well on their medication? These are the people who would probably benefit from thyroid function investigation to see what is going on. Likewise those who have respiratory issues Asthma or Bronchitis. I've know for years that the thyroid can be implicated in Asthma but asthmatics are never tested for t3. When someone lives at a calorific deficit and a thyroid related problem their metabolism suffers a double hit because both actions down regulates our requirements.

    I'm confident that when the balance of the endocrine system is restored, when specifically the adrenal; pituitary thyroid axis etc, is balances everyone's digestive issues would improve. Will the medical profession do any of this...... I truly fear not.

    Read from, free hospital papers, thyroid support sites, STTM, stop the thyroid madness, your national thyroid support sites and the Hypothyroid Mom. All I have written and believe is contained there. With the right help for you, you will not need an operation. All the very best
  • SLLRunner
    SLLRunner Posts: 12,942 Member
    @Fuzzipeg, what? I am confused about your lengthy dissertation on thyroid issues, and how it even fits in with the conversation.

    As go the OP, there is no one way to lose weight, but I've read plenty of success stories of people who have lost without surgery. My SIL had weight loss surgery, ended up gaining most of her weight back ten years later, all because she never changed her mentality around food.

    Eat less calories than you burn and you will lose weight. If you don't, then you need to go to the doctor.
  • CSARdiver
    CSARdiver Posts: 6,252 Member
    Packerjohn wrote: »
    A very wise 3rd grade teacher told me many years ago if a question had "always" or "only" in it the answer was most likely false.

    Very wise indeed - I had a similar teacher who stated the same with "never" and told us to relish proving these people wrong.
  • bsyarber
    bsyarber Posts: 4 Member
    Thanks :smile:
  • stealthq
    stealthq Posts: 4,298 Member
    edited December 2016
    Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
    stealthq wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    usmcmp wrote: »
    I know several people who had bariatric surgery. They all gained the weight back. The surgery reduces the size of your stomach and limits the amount of food your stomach can hold at once, which naturally forces you to eat less. You still have to learn effective habits because you can stretch it back out, meaning you wasted all that money and time for nothing.

    All weight loss, surgical or otherwise, relies on continuing positive habits after the extra weight is gone. You can take the time to learn them as you lose or you can be forced into a situation where you have to learn them immediately. The conversations I have had with those who gained it all back showed that they didn't take time to fix the mental part of it and that when they lost the weight the second time they made sure to fix how they saw things and approached food the second time around.

    I know three people who had the surgery. Only one has been successful at maintaining her loss.

    She's the only one who from the start acknowledged that she had to make sweeping changing to her whole lifestyle and relationship with food and worked hard to do just that.

    The other two started looking for ways to game the whole thing as soon as they could. They were just looking for a quick fix and never acknowledged the part they played in their problem.

    Similar story here. I know four people who've had it done (various types of procedures). It's been about 3 yrs since the most recent one I know about and none have kept it off.

    One ended up back in the hospital with systemic organ failure. He recovered and is mostly back to normal, health-wise. The best explanation the doctors were able to come up with was a combination of malnutrition and a low-grade infection from surgery that turned into much more as the months passed. This guy either did not get any advice on how to eat after surgery or he threw it all out the window from day one. Hard to tell.

    Two went the more common route of losing about 60-70% of what they needed to get to a healthy weight and then started putting it back on when their stomach stretched back out and they weren't so careful about their diets anymore, although they will tell you they are still eating the way they were. It is obvious that both are now eating much more volume at a sitting than they were even remotely capable of months after surgery. We're talking at least 3x more - which is why the weight creeps back on. One of these two was just prescribed a doctor-recommended VLCD because his weight is starting to cause heart issues.

    The fourth went the route of losing everything he wanted to lose, and gaining every bit of it back. This guy used to be an athlete. More than a hobbyist, but not a pro. A bicyclist and very lean and muscled - the last person you would have thought would have 1) gained enough to be morbidly obese, 2) had surgery to lose it given he knew how to lose that weight already, and 3) gain it all back again. Then, although we didn't know this at the time, he decided to do something about the fact he was unhappy with his marriage and ready for a change. Guess what - now that he had plenty of motivation, he dieted and exercised the way he already knew how to do and was down to healthy and well muscled again pretty quickly. Then he divorced his wife, who had stuck with him through the whole mess for a younger woman. :headdesk:

    To be fair, it took something similar to your last statement for me to get my *kitten* back together and resume fat loss.

    My ex-wife and I went through the initial "let's unfat ourselves" together, both of us doing very well, and by any metric, she better than me. She won several transformation contests, a couple of powerlifting tournaments, and overall did excellent on her drop from 190 to 120. I, on the other hand did fine, but not great. 265 to 185, and decent strength increases, but nothing to write home about.

    Well, once we hit maintenance mode, I held between 185 and 190 for three years, but she completely lost control of herself and regained it all and then some. Now, in and of itself, this wasn't too big of an issue. What was an issue was the fact thay her getting fat again put her into such a negative funk that she became insufferable. Every other day she would whine about beinf fat, and I would tell her "you already know what you need to do, and you've done it before, so just get at it". That would always garner a response loaded with excuses, and she'd shove more ice cream into her face.

    After a couple of years of this, I was just exhausted and done. I had started to creep back up on the scale myself, but as soon as I got near 200 again, I knew what I needed to do, and I did it. I purged the negativity and went on a massive hellcut from 195 to 150 within a few months. Interestingly, since we separated, she has gotten herself back together as well. There was just something there that was making both of us miserable, and our bodies were showing it.

    The *headdesk* mostly was not because this guy decided to leave his wife.

    Mostly, it was because it just astounds me that someone would go through bariatric surgery to lose weight when they are clearly more than capable of doing it themselves given sufficient motivation. I would do just about anything to avoid the VLCD, etc that comes along with the surgery.

    It was also partially because this particular guy sprang his unhappiness on his wife and young kids only after he'd already gotten lean, found himself a new SO, and had been cheating on his wife for months which I consider to be a *kitten* move. But those details weren't relevant to the point I was trying to make so I left them out.
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