Reverse diet?
daz2270
Posts: 73 Member
Hi all. I've been cutting on and off for the best part of 18 months (losing 68lbs). I'm 5' 10" and am 3lb away from my goal (160 lb). I'd then like to start a slow bulk. Based on my average cals consumed I estimate my TDEE to be around 2500 and I am eating c 1600 cals per day. My question is: once I get to my goal should I creep up calories slowly at around 200 per week, building up to a small surplus in 5-6 weeks or am I better off bumping up to a modest surplus (say 250) straight away? Thanks for the advice.
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I would recommend going to maintenance straight away. "Reverse dieting" is not required and is prolonging your time in a deficit. Just be aware that the scales will probably jump up as you replenish glycogen and gain some water weight. 2-4 weeks at maintenance before moving into a surplus is recommended as your body is primed for fat gain after prolonged periods in a deficit.1
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How much weight per week did you lose on average? What has your workout program been? What are your goals? Based on that, you may or may not even need and/or want to bulk.1
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@psulemon lost on average 1.5lb per week over last 12 weeks or so. Workout program has been back/chest/biceps x2 per week, legs, shoulders, triceps x 2 per week. Been lifting for last 16 months or so, I think I've managed to preserve LBM to a reasonable extent. My ultimate goal is to gain 20lb of muscle and be around 12% bodyfat.0
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trigden1991 wrote: »I would recommend going to maintenance straight away. "Reverse dieting" is not required and is prolonging your time in a deficit. Just be aware that the scales will probably jump up as you replenish glycogen and gain some water weight. 2-4 weeks at maintenance before moving into a surplus is recommended as your body is primed for fat gain after prolonged periods in a deficit.
It's a shame, because I really would have recommended this approach when you were nearing the last 10 or so pounds.
As a man, I really wouldn't have ever recommended dropping your calories so low.
It can be frustrating when you've been in a deficit for a long time to just shoot back up to maintenance because it takes time for hunger levels to adjust, negative metabolic adaptations to adjust, and more. Reverse dieting can be great for this.
At this point you can go ahead and increase your calories by 500 or so for a couple weeks then another 500 or so for another couple weeks (to get you up into the range you think you are going to maintain in). I would really push and see where your maintenance lies. You might find it's lower than you expect. You can just go straight up, but in my experience this may lead to some quick bounce-back fat gain.
In any case, i'd take the time to go ahead and find out what your true maintenance is before trying to move into a surplus. Once you've got a handle on that you can begin a small surplus to minimize fat gains.
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rainbowbow wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I would recommend going to maintenance straight away. "Reverse dieting" is not required and is prolonging your time in a deficit. Just be aware that the scales will probably jump up as you replenish glycogen and gain some water weight. 2-4 weeks at maintenance before moving into a surplus is recommended as your body is primed for fat gain after prolonged periods in a deficit.
In any case, i'd take the time to go ahead and find out what your true maintenance is before trying to move into a surplus.
This is a very good point. Your maintenance probably isn't where you think it is and will certainly move upwards as you intake more food due to NEAT and increased workout intensity.1 -
trigden1991 wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I would recommend going to maintenance straight away. "Reverse dieting" is not required and is prolonging your time in a deficit. Just be aware that the scales will probably jump up as you replenish glycogen and gain some water weight. 2-4 weeks at maintenance before moving into a surplus is recommended as your body is primed for fat gain after prolonged periods in a deficit.
In any case, i'd take the time to go ahead and find out what your true maintenance is before trying to move into a surplus.
This is a very good point. Your maintenance probably isn't where you think it is and will certainly move upwards as you intake more food due to NEAT and increased workout intensity.
Yep. Pretty much. ^0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I would recommend going to maintenance straight away. "Reverse dieting" is not required and is prolonging your time in a deficit. Just be aware that the scales will probably jump up as you replenish glycogen and gain some water weight. 2-4 weeks at maintenance before moving into a surplus is recommended as your body is primed for fat gain after prolonged periods in a deficit.
It's a shame, because I really would have recommended this approach when you were nearing the last 10 or so pounds.
As a man, I really wouldn't have ever recommended dropping your calories so low.
It can be frustrating when you've been in a deficit for a long time to just shoot back up to maintenance because it takes time for hunger levels to adjust, negative metabolic adaptations to adjust, and more. Reverse dieting can be great for this.
At this point you can go ahead and increase your calories by 500 or so for a couple weeks then another 500 or so for another couple weeks (to get you up into the range you think you are going to maintain in). I would really push and see where your maintenance lies. You might find it's lower than you expect. You can just go straight up, but in my experience this may lead to some quick bounce-back fat gain.
In any case, i'd take the time to go ahead and find out what your true maintenance is before trying to move into a surplus. Once you've got a handle on that you can begin a small surplus to minimize fat gains.
I have taken a few diet breaks along the way, but I've been cutting for so long now I just want to get it over and done with! I will take your advise and bump cals up by 500. I'm pretty diligent recording calories and weight to I feel confident I'll be able to adjust based on experience. Thanks for the help.0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I would recommend going to maintenance straight away. "Reverse dieting" is not required and is prolonging your time in a deficit. Just be aware that the scales will probably jump up as you replenish glycogen and gain some water weight. 2-4 weeks at maintenance before moving into a surplus is recommended as your body is primed for fat gain after prolonged periods in a deficit.
It's a shame, because I really would have recommended this approach when you were nearing the last 10 or so pounds.
As a man, I really wouldn't have ever recommended dropping your calories so low.
It can be frustrating when you've been in a deficit for a long time to just shoot back up to maintenance because it takes time for hunger levels to adjust, negative metabolic adaptations to adjust, and more. Reverse dieting can be great for this.
At this point you can go ahead and increase your calories by 500 or so for a couple weeks then another 500 or so for another couple weeks (to get you up into the range you think you are going to maintain in). I would really push and see where your maintenance lies. You might find it's lower than you expect. You can just go straight up, but in my experience this may lead to some quick bounce-back fat gain.
In any case, i'd take the time to go ahead and find out what your true maintenance is before trying to move into a surplus. Once you've got a handle on that you can begin a small surplus to minimize fat gains.
I have taken a few diet breaks along the way, but I've been cutting for so long now I just want to get it over and done with! I will take your advise and bump cals up by 500. I'm pretty diligent recording calories and weight to I feel confident I'll be able to adjust based on experience. Thanks for the help.
You're welcome! It's important to point out that for men long periods of low calorie intake may reduce their levels of testosterone and sex hormones.
This was another reason i mentioned that your maintenance calories may be lower than expected (along with loss of lean mass, and metabolic adaptations).
In the future, should you need to lose body fat again, i would probably be less aggressive with the calorie deficit. A simple 15% or 20% reduction should be sufficient now that you've lost a significant amount of body fat.
good luck to you!2 -
@psulemon lost on average 1.5lb per week over last 12 weeks or so. Workout program has been back/chest/biceps x2 per week, legs, shoulders, triceps x 2 per week. Been lifting for last 16 months or so, I think I've managed to preserve LBM to a reasonable extent. My ultimate goal is to gain 20lb of muscle and be around 12% bodyfat.
So your actual maintenance is ~ 2350.
Do you know your body fat % now? Also, if are looking to gain that kind of muscle, its going to need to be done with a few cycles.1 -
@psulemon lost on average 1.5lb per week over last 12 weeks or so. Workout program has been back/chest/biceps x2 per week, legs, shoulders, triceps x 2 per week. Been lifting for last 16 months or so, I think I've managed to preserve LBM to a reasonable extent. My ultimate goal is to gain 20lb of muscle and be around 12% bodyfat.
So your actual maintenance is ~ 2350.
Do you know your body fat % now? Also, if are looking to gain that kind of muscle, its going to need to be done with a few cycles.
Thank you @psulemon I'd guess bf% is around 13%/14%. I can see upper ab definition and plenty of vascularity. Lower abs not visible (however this may be affected by loose skin?). In terms of cycles I was thinking if I gain 0.5lbs per week I could probably bulk for 25-30 weeks before cutting again - does that sound right? Don't particularly want to get to the stage where I have to go on a protracted cut again.
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@psulemon lost on average 1.5lb per week over last 12 weeks or so. Workout program has been back/chest/biceps x2 per week, legs, shoulders, triceps x 2 per week. Been lifting for last 16 months or so, I think I've managed to preserve LBM to a reasonable extent. My ultimate goal is to gain 20lb of muscle and be around 12% bodyfat.
So your actual maintenance is ~ 2350.
Do you know your body fat % now? Also, if are looking to gain that kind of muscle, its going to need to be done with a few cycles.
Thank you @psulemon I'd guess bf% is around 13%/14%. I can see upper ab definition and plenty of vascularity. Lower abs not visible (however this may be affected by loose skin?). In terms of cycles I was thinking if I gain 0.5lbs per week I could probably bulk for 25-30 weeks before cutting again - does that sound right? Don't particularly want to get to the stage where I have to go on a protracted cut again.
I know everyone has differing opinions but I would be inclined to push your diet for a bit longer and get leaner. In an ideal world (which we certainly don't live in), a male should not bulk over 15% as the ratio of muscle/fat gain becomes less favorable due to hormonal issues. If you are a true 13%, within 4-6 weeks you could be much closer to 10% and in a better place to bulk.
Then I would say your plan of aiming for 0.5lbs/week is spot on and should yield the best results with least fat gain. If you find you are looking a bit fat at any point, a short hard 2-3 diet is not a bad idea. Maybe read RFL by Lyle McDonald for some insight.1 -
I wouldn't do any sort of a slow reverse diet but I don't think it's a bad idea to make a bump to calories, getting you pretty close to estimated maintenance, and from there make adjustments every 1-2 weeks based on changes in bodyweight once you get over the initial spike in weight which should happen in the first week.
So just for example based on your rate of weight loss you're likely anywhere in a 600-800 calorie deficit. Make a 400-500 calorie bump, give it a couple of weeks, and from there make increases by about 100-200 calories.
It's also a good idea to remember that maintenance is a moving target, and people respond differently to underfeeding and overfeeding as far as the impact food intake has on non exercise activity. Some people can get away with higher intakes because they naturally upregulate activity to burn off a greater portion of the excess calories.
I would also very generally suggest a tame surplus specifically because you've lost so much weight. Many people who have lost a significant amount of weight struggle with intentional weight gain and for good reasons.0 -
Thanks for the advice @trigden1991, I've done some reading on calories partitioning. However, I've been dieting for what feels like forever now. I'm feeling more and more lethargic, libido has dropped through the floor and I'm feeling cold all the time. Psychologically and maybe physiologically I think I need to up the calories a bit! I'd like to hit 160lbs first just to prove to myself I can do it, but thereafter I'm looking forward to a few extra calories.0
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Thanks for the advice @trigden1991, I've done some reading on calories partitioning. However, I've been dieting for what feels like forever now. I'm feeling more and more lethargic, libido has dropped through the floor and I'm feeling cold all the time. Psychologically and maybe physiologically I think I need to up the calories a bit! I'd like to hit 160lbs first just to prove to myself I can do it, but thereafter I'm looking forward to a few extra calories.
How frequently are you doing diet breaks and for what duration?1 -
Thanks for the advice @trigden1991, I've done some reading on calories partitioning. However, I've been dieting for what feels like forever now. I'm feeling more and more lethargic, libido has dropped through the floor and I'm feeling cold all the time. Psychologically and maybe physiologically I think I need to up the calories a bit! I'd like to hit 160lbs first just to prove to myself I can do it, but thereafter I'm looking forward to a few extra calories.
How frequently are you doing diet breaks and for what duration?
I didn't realise that was the case. I would recommend a diet break first, then finish your cut and then look to increase calories.
Those are all signs that you need a diet break!2 -
@psulemon lost on average 1.5lb per week over last 12 weeks or so. Workout program has been back/chest/biceps x2 per week, legs, shoulders, triceps x 2 per week. Been lifting for last 16 months or so, I think I've managed to preserve LBM to a reasonable extent. My ultimate goal is to gain 20lb of muscle and be around 12% bodyfat.
So your actual maintenance is ~ 2350.
Do you know your body fat % now? Also, if are looking to gain that kind of muscle, its going to need to be done with a few cycles.
Thank you @psulemon I'd guess bf% is around 13%/14%. I can see upper ab definition and plenty of vascularity. Lower abs not visible (however this may be affected by loose skin?). In terms of cycles I was thinking if I gain 0.5lbs per week I could probably bulk for 25-30 weeks before cutting again - does that sound right? Don't particularly want to get to the stage where I have to go on a protracted cut again.
Considering you can't see lower abs, have you considered recomping for a while to get more lean? I can see upper ab definition and I am around 16% body fat last I check. While a bit slower I think a recomp might be more beneficial for you to help you lean out first, get out of an aggressive cut, and prep you for a good bulk.1 -
How frequently are you doing diet breaks and for what duration?
I tend to take breaks based on social commitments or when I feel mentally I need a break, so last one was 3 weeks long which I had to coincide with my vacation/holiday back in August, but normally a week in duration. On average I'd say it works out maybe once every 12 weeks or so.
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How frequently are you doing diet breaks and for what duration?
I tend to take breaks based on social commitments or when I feel mentally I need a break, so last one was 3 weeks long which I had to coincide with my vacation/holiday back in August, but normally a week in duration. On average I'd say it works out maybe once every 12 weeks or so.
I think in the early stages of a diet that might be fine but based on everything you're describing now, I'd suggest going straight to maintenance for at least a two week period.
Evaluate libido, how food focused you are, general life stress and mood at the end of the two week period. If you don't see substantial improvement I'd extend the break another 2 weeks.
If you do feel significant improvement, return to the deficit (OR, just decide that life is better at maintenance).
Don't make the mistake of thinking "I'm so close to my goal, I can't take a break now" because I've seen that happen and it never ends well.
Additionally, I've never had a client take a diet break and regret it. Ever.1 -
@psulemon lost on average 1.5lb per week over last 12 weeks or so. Workout program has been back/chest/biceps x2 per week, legs, shoulders, triceps x 2 per week. Been lifting for last 16 months or so, I think I've managed to preserve LBM to a reasonable extent. My ultimate goal is to gain 20lb of muscle and be around 12% bodyfat.
So your actual maintenance is ~ 2350.
Do you know your body fat % now? Also, if are looking to gain that kind of muscle, its going to need to be done with a few cycles.
Thank you @psulemon I'd guess bf% is around 13%/14%. I can see upper ab definition and plenty of vascularity. Lower abs not visible (however this may be affected by loose skin?). In terms of cycles I was thinking if I gain 0.5lbs per week I could probably bulk for 25-30 weeks before cutting again - does that sound right? Don't particularly want to get to the stage where I have to go on a protracted cut again.
Considering you can't see lower abs, have you considered recomping for a while to get more lean? I can see upper ab definition and I am around 16% body fat last I check. While a bit slower I think a recomp might be more beneficial for you to help you lean out first, get out of an aggressive cut, and prep you for a good bulk.
I have only just realised that you are male @psulemon . Not related to this thread or important. Carry on everyone.0 -
Evaluate libido, how food focused you are, general life stress and mood at the end of the two week period. If you don't see substantial improvement I'd extend the break another 2 weeks.
I spent 2 hours watching the food channel Saturday night! Don't these things "go with the territory" once you get <15% bf? I'm just soooo close to my goal it's tantalizing! I suppose in the scheme of things 2 weeks at maintenance wouldn't make much difference to my long term goals. Thanks for taking the time to post @SideSteel.
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Hi all. I've been cutting on and off for the best part of 18 months (losing 68lbs). I'm 5' 10" and am 3lb away from my goal (160 lb). I'd then like to start a slow bulk. Based on my average cals consumed I estimate my TDEE to be around 2500 and I am eating c 1600 cals per day. My question is: once I get to my goal should I creep up calories slowly at around 200 per week, building up to a small surplus in 5-6 weeks or am I better off bumping up to a modest surplus (say 250) straight away? Thanks for the advice.
I increased my calories by 200-300 a week until I hit maintenance. But I also wanted to go 5 lbs below my goal weight because I knew my body would take time to adjust to the calories and I would gain a bit. I was right, by the time I hit my maintenance calories, which took about a month, I had gained back up to my goal weight. Once in maintenance, I set out for recomp since I had not lost all the belly fat (more loose skin than anything) I wanted, so I've been at maintenance, slightly below, or slightly above at times ever since (for about six months). I've managed to loose about 2-3% more body fat, and reduced the belly quite a bit (not where I want it just yet, but it's close). I figure another six months at maintenance, then I'll decide if I want to bulk, but it's looking like I won't have to as long as I keep on the way I am for another six months. I've actually lost about 10 lbs more in the last six months along with the body fat without even trying. I allow longer harder workouts to be a slight deficit rather than restricting calories constantly. Muscle gain is slow in recomp, but since I'm eating up to maintenance levels and sometimes above it isn't hard to maintain without feeling terribly restricted.1 -
Spliner1969 wrote: »Hi all. I've been cutting on and off for the best part of 18 months (losing 68lbs). I'm 5' 10" and am 3lb away from my goal (160 lb). I'd then like to start a slow bulk. Based on my average cals consumed I estimate my TDEE to be around 2500 and I am eating c 1600 cals per day. My question is: once I get to my goal should I creep up calories slowly at around 200 per week, building up to a small surplus in 5-6 weeks or am I better off bumping up to a modest surplus (say 250) straight away? Thanks for the advice.
I've actually lost about 10 lbs more in the last six months along with the body fat without even trying. I allow longer harder workouts to be a slight deficit rather than restricting calories constantly. Muscle gain is slow in recomp, but since I'm eating up to maintenance levels and sometimes above it isn't hard to maintain without feeling terribly restricted.
You think that you lost 10lbs whilst eating at maintenance and sometimes above it?? In reality you have been in a a caloric deficit of about 250cals per day. You won't have gained any muscle but you will have gotten leaner.
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trigden1991 wrote: »You think that you lost 10lbs whilst eating at maintenance and sometimes above it?? In reality you have been in a a caloric deficit of about 250cals per day. You won't have gained any muscle but you will have gotten leaner.
Possibly. I won't argue with that. The increased exercise puts me in deficit a lot, it was poorly worded. I'm not scheduling a deficit like in the past when dieting, I'm allowing it to happen depending on effort put forth through exercise. Some days I simply can't eat more, and it still leaves me in a deficit. One reason for that is that I calculate a set amount of exercise into my TDEE, set that on MFP, then delete exercise as I do it to keep the calorie levels steady. I don't pay for MFP any longer (just didn't see the point) so it really just depends on the accuracy of my apps, and how much exercise for my deficit. It just isn't apparent in my diary most days. I wouldn't say I'm gaining a lot of muscle size, but you're right I'm becoming leaner, and I've noticed muscle where I had none before (abs mostly, some in the legs) so there's some recomp going on as expected.
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Spliner1969 wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »You think that you lost 10lbs whilst eating at maintenance and sometimes above it?? In reality you have been in a a caloric deficit of about 250cals per day. You won't have gained any muscle but you will have gotten leaner.
Possibly. I won't argue with that. The increased exercise puts me in deficit a lot, it was poorly worded. I'm not scheduling a deficit like in the past when dieting, I'm allowing it to happen depending on effort put forth through exercise. Some days I simply can't eat more, and it still leaves me in a deficit. One reason for that is that I calculate a set amount of exercise into my TDEE, set that on MFP, then delete exercise as I do it to keep the calorie levels steady. I don't pay for MFP any longer (just didn't see the point) so it really just depends on the accuracy of my apps, and how much exercise for my deficit. It just isn't apparent in my diary most days. I wouldn't say I'm gaining a lot of muscle size, but you're right I'm becoming leaner, and I've noticed muscle where I had none before (abs mostly, some in the legs) so there's some recomp going on as expected.
An unintentional deficit is great, for fat loss and mentally not feeling like you're dieting but not great if you are trying to build some muscle. If you were to bump your average calories up by 250 cals I would hazard a guess that your weight would maintain.0 -
trigden1991 wrote: »An unintentional deficit is great, for fat loss and mentally not feeling like you're dieting but not great if you are trying to build some muscle. If you were to bump your average calories up by 250 cals I would hazard a guess that your weight would maintain.
It's a possibility. I am going to toy with that at the first of the year (250 additional is what I also figured). Right now I try to bump calories on days that I do more strength training, and on days right afterward. So overall for a month, or overall for a week, I tend to be in a slight deficit, but in surplus (a slight one) on 1-3 days a week. One of the things I had had trouble with was that I've taught myself over the last 1.5 years to eat healthier versions of things (as in lower calorie versions) and I'm finding that continuing that sometimes makes it difficult to eat in surplus (I will get too full to eat more lol).
For instance, last night I set out to eat in surplus for the night, fixed me a double cheeseburger (2 1/3 lb patties), loaded, roasted cauliflower, and potato wedges with a side salad for dinner. I made it through everything but the salad lol, could simply not eat more. I managed to eat maybe 1/3rd of it, so I picked out the meat (in this case ham). I ended the day a few calories under my maintenance goal even after having ice cream as a late snack which I also barely ate lol. The ice cream is the 'no sugar added' variety. So had I changed up sides on the dinner to something higher calorie, and maybe eaten fully loaded sugar ice cream I might have been in surplus.
I bought a huge jar of peanut butter yesterday, will be using that for extra calories from time to time, maybe I can be more consistent without falling back into crap food habits again. Again, don't get me wrong, food is food, I'm not one of those 'eating clean' people, but I've taught myself to eat more vegetables, and lower fat/lower sugar versions of things which is now sort of working against me. It's still tough to get out of the 'i'll get fat' mentality after working so hard to lose all this weight (126 lbs to date).
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