To cardio first or not to cardio first
Replies
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I do both. I do 10 mins cardio to help get warmed up, then I lift, and then finish with 10-15 mins of moderate cardio, to get my heart rate up and blood pumping.0
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I find it more efficient for myself when I do weights first, cardio second. Even better if I can do them in separate sessions.0
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Someone told me its better to do weights first and then cardio after...
Ive always done cardio first and then weights.... Have i been doin it wrong this whole time!? Why is it better to do cardio last??
The pertinent questions are:
1) "Better" for what? The word "better" without context is meaningless.
2) What are your goals? Are they primarily strength based, or primarily cardio based?
3) How intense is your strength training? How intense is your cardio?
If you're doing an intense strength training program with a lot of compound movements, doing cardio first may not be such a great idea. If you're doing light circuit training or (as some people do) just wandering around the weight room using whatever machine catches your fancy, it probably doesn't make much difference either way.
If your goals are primarily cardio based and the strength training is mostly an afterthought, maybe you'd want to do the cardio first, when you can devote the most energy to it. If you're incorporating HIIT workouts into your cardio, no way I'd do them before strength training. Truthfully, if I was doing HIIT, it would be on a day of its own, completely apart from strength training.
If you're simply asking which is "better" for weight loss purposes, it 100% doesn't matter. Do it whichever way best suits your personal preference. You're burning the same number of calories either way.
Personally - my primary focus is on strength training and my workout involves lifting heavy (for me) using mostly compound movements. I do about 5 minutes of cardio as a warm-up (usually the rower), then lift, then do 20-30 minutes of low/moderate intensity cardio afterward (walking/running on the treadmill, stationary bike, or rower).3 -
The "fat burning zone" is misinterpreted. While one burns more fat by percentage at moderate to low intensity, if the duration is the same versus higher intensity exercise, one still burns more fat calories overall doing high intensity.NorthCascades wrote: »Ever see anyone depleted from using all their glycogen stores? They don't move.
Yes, I've bonked myself. Continued riding until I got home, but it became much more difficult and painful and my power output fell substantially. I was able to continue exercising without glycogen, by burning only fat, because people can do that.
Also, this only happens when people exert themselves at high intensity. That's what "the fat burning zone" is all about. That's how you do long endurance exercise without bonking, by using mostly fat instead of glycogen, by staying at moderate intensity levels.
And as for bonking, there's a reason gel packs and other simple carb packs are around for long endurance people. The body doesn't give fat as easily as people would like to think. And even in trained athletes, the reliance on carbs is more important. Heck if it were just about converting fat for energy for long endurance, it would make sense to be a fatter athlete with less muscle.
And if you really bonked out, you wouldn't move. You likely were really depleted, but true depletion of all glycogen would leave you in a fetal position.
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The bro-science in this post is very thick. Here are two articles with useful knowledge, written by people who know what they're talking about.
One of the fitness indicators that we hope to improve in the Base period has to do with using more fat and less glycogen (carb) for fuel during long endurance events. As your body becomes better at using fat to produce energy essentially your aerobic fitness improves.
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/01/becoming-a-better-fat-burner.html
... and ...
Fat is the muscles’ primary fuel for low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate is the muscles’ primary fuel for moderately high- to high-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate fuel supplies are very limited in the body, such that carbohydrate fuel depletion is a major cause of fatigue during prolonged exercise at higher intensities (e.g. triathlons and marathons). Fat fuel supplies are virtually unlimited in the body. Thus, by increasing their reliance on fat fuel and decreasing their reliance on carbohydrate fuel during race-intensity exercise, endurance athletes could theoretically delay fatigue and perform better. Endurance training and increased fat consumption are known to increase fat burning during exercise.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/can-you-become-a-fat-burning-machine
This is common knowledge and I could find you 100 other legitimate references if I had nothing better to do with my time.0 -
Okay so you've gone off on a tangent of ELITE endurance athletes and optimum usage of fat burning versus the average gym goer doing exercise 3x a week?NorthCascades wrote: »The bro-science in this post is very thick. Here are two articles with useful knowledge, written by people who know what they're talking about.
One of the fitness indicators that we hope to improve in the Base period has to do with using more fat and less glycogen (carb) for fuel during long endurance events. As your body becomes better at using fat to produce energy essentially your aerobic fitness improves.
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/01/becoming-a-better-fat-burner.html
... and ...
Fat is the muscles’ primary fuel for low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate is the muscles’ primary fuel for moderately high- to high-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate fuel supplies are very limited in the body, such that carbohydrate fuel depletion is a major cause of fatigue during prolonged exercise at higher intensities (e.g. triathlons and marathons). Fat fuel supplies are virtually unlimited in the body. Thus, by increasing their reliance on fat fuel and decreasing their reliance on carbohydrate fuel during race-intensity exercise, endurance athletes could theoretically delay fatigue and perform better. Endurance training and increased fat consumption are known to increase fat burning during exercise.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/can-you-become-a-fat-burning-machine
This is common knowledge and I could find you 100 other legitimate references if I had nothing better to do with my time.
I'm not an idiot. I know how endurance athletes train and how their adaptability to fat usage is higher, but even in the articles genetics, how you train, how you eat and consistency is needed to achieve this. And that's a HUGE shift in how they train and eat, not the average gym goer. We're talking people in GENERAL population who exercise regularly for basic health. And basic physiology 101 will tell you that glycogen first and foremost will be the fuel first used in the duration of any exercise at any intensity. If you disagree, then go tell the Journals of Metabolism and Endocrinology they are wrong.
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I'm talking about how the body uses fats and carbs during exercise. Among people like me, who do this for fun and pleasure. "Elite" is a red herring, and your word, not mine.
If you know that people can be get in shape and burn fat as a fuel source, why did you say that they're unable to move when they use up their glycogen?0 -
And basic physiology 101 will tell you that glycogen first and foremost will be the fuel first used in the duration of any exercise at any intensity.NorthCascades wrote: »Fat is the muscles’ primary fuel for low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate is the muscles’ primary fuel for moderately high- to high-intensity exercise.
You have the proof by assertion thing down, anyway.0 -
I explained how the body works with usage of glycogen and fat for fuel. Glycogen primarily, fat secondary regardless of what exercise someone does. Duration and intensity (which I mentioned) will change percentages over time. And you didn't post articles relating to endurance athletes? Or is there somewhere in the article this applies to people in the general population who don't train that way?NorthCascades wrote: »I'm talking about how the body uses fats and carbs during exercise. Among people like me, who do this for fun and pleasure. "Elite" is a red herring, and your word, not mine.
Because they can't. Glycogen is needed to help create ATP for muscular contractions. Now while gluconeogenisis can help to create ATP, it's a slow system to convert fatty acids fast enough to if energy demand is high enough and caused someone to hit the wall. And even with good endurance athletes, with GREAT fat conversion in their metabolisms, when they hit the wall, it's because there is no trace of glycogen in their systems. Are there endurance athletes that don't carb up before a competition and just rely on fat? Why not? When it happens, what's the first thing they do to help remedy the issue? Would that be CARBS or fat?If you know that people can be get in shape and burn fat as a fuel source, why did you say that they're unable to move when they use up their glycogen?
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I don't know any of the science behind it but in my personal experience my heart rate (and calorie burn) is higher during cardio if I do my strength training first.0
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Primary after how long? The first minute.NorthCascades wrote: »And basic physiology 101 will tell you that glycogen first and foremost will be the fuel first used in the duration of any exercise at any intensity.NorthCascades wrote: »Fat is the muscles’ primary fuel for low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate is the muscles’ primary fuel for moderately high- to high-intensity exercise.
You have the proof by assertion thing down, anyway.
2 minutes? 5 minutes? Give me a figure here.
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I don't know any of the science behind it but in my personal experience my heart rate (and calorie burn) is higher during cardio if I do my strength training first.
The higher HR is mostly an artifact from the previous lifting. You likely aren't burning more calories. If you are doing a lower workload because you are fatigued from lifting, you are likely burning less.
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NorthCascades wrote: »
The "fat burning zone" is misinterpreted. While one burns more fat by percentage at moderate to low intensity, if the duration is the same versus higher intensity exercise, one still burns more fat calories overall doing high intensity.NorthCascades wrote: »Ever see anyone depleted from using all their glycogen stores? They don't move.
Yes, I've bonked myself. Continued riding until I got home, but it became much more difficult and painful and my power output fell substantially. I was able to continue exercising without glycogen, by burning only fat, because people can do that.
Also, this only happens when people exert themselves at high intensity. That's what "the fat burning zone" is all about. That's how you do long endurance exercise without bonking, by using mostly fat instead of glycogen, by staying at moderate intensity levels.
And as for bonking, there's a reason gel packs and other simple carb packs are around for long endurance people. The body doesn't give fat as easily as people would like to think. And even in trained athletes, the reliance on carbs is more important. Heck if it were just about converting fat for energy for long endurance, it would make sense to be a fatter athlete with less muscle.
And if you really bonked out, you wouldn't move. You likely were really depleted, but true depletion of all glycogen would leave you in a fetal position.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The bro-science in this post is very thick. Here are two articles with useful knowledge, written by people who know what they're talking about.
One of the fitness indicators that we hope to improve in the Base period has to do with using more fat and less glycogen (carb) for fuel during long endurance events. As your body becomes better at using fat to produce energy essentially your aerobic fitness improves.
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/01/becoming-a-better-fat-burner.html
... and ...
Fat is the muscles’ primary fuel for low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate is the muscles’ primary fuel for moderately high- to high-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate fuel supplies are very limited in the body, such that carbohydrate fuel depletion is a major cause of fatigue during prolonged exercise at higher intensities (e.g. triathlons and marathons). Fat fuel supplies are virtually unlimited in the body. Thus, by increasing their reliance on fat fuel and decreasing their reliance on carbohydrate fuel during race-intensity exercise, endurance athletes could theoretically delay fatigue and perform better. Endurance training and increased fat consumption are known to increase fat burning during exercise.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/can-you-become-a-fat-burning-machine
This is common knowledge and I could find you 100 other legitimate references if I had nothing better to do with my time.
You are quoting studies but not placing them in the proper context.
In colloquial usage, when people refer to the "fat burning zone" they mean an exercise intensity at which the body PREFERENTIALLY BURNS STORED BODY FAT LEADING TO ENHANCED WEIGHT LOSS. This is a myth.
Almost no one ever thinks of the "fat burning zone" in terms of an endurance training stimulus.
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NorthCascades wrote: »And basic physiology 101 will tell you that glycogen first and foremost will be the fuel first used in the duration of any exercise at any intensity.NorthCascades wrote: »Fat is the muscles’ primary fuel for low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate is the muscles’ primary fuel for moderately high- to high-intensity exercise.
You have the proof by assertion thing down, anyway.
Again this is semantic kabuki. These statements refer to two different things.
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Cutaway_Collar wrote: »My head hurts. Will I go to hell if I cardio after weights?
It's fairly simple:
1. Doing a lot of cardio first, esp long duration or intense cardio will decrease the quality of the strength workout.
2. However, "decrease the quality" is a relative term. One can still see significant results--perhaps all the improvement you want--doing cardio first.
3. Doing a heavy or intense strength workout first can have decrease the quality of the cardio workout--ie you may not be able to go as hard or as long.
4. So which you do first (assuming you have to do both in the same workout) will depend on your priorities and goals. (Not to mention personal preference) Do you want to maximize cardio training quality or strength? If so, do that first.
5. Does doing one type of workout first have a greater impact on the one following. For example, if I lift heavy first, my cardio is for sh-t, yet I can do intense/long cardio first and still do a decent strength workout. In other words, strength training has a disproportionately negative effect on my cardio than vice versa. So I do cardio first. YMMV
6. All the other stuff--using up glycogen so that you burn more fat, etc, etc--can be ignored as most of it is wrong.2 -
Only if your cardio is twerking.Cutaway_Collar wrote: »My head hurts. Will I go to hell if I cardio after weights?
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Which one is more important to you from a performance standpoint?
Do that one first.
If you lift first, your cardio will likely suffer in some manner because you're tired.
If you do cardio first, your lifting will likely suffer in some manner because you're tired.
Regardless of substrate utilization it ultimately boils down to the above ^
Also listen to @Azdak and do what he says
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After. You want peak energy for the lifts.0
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Depends on goals. Glycogen levels get reduced by exercise and if you're trying to get better a lifting, then it's more efficient to lift before cardio since glycogen levels are highest at the beginning of any workout.
If you're working on your endurance and cardio fitness more than strength and muscle toning, then you can do cardio first.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Im looking to build muscle in my legs and flatten my stomach... I have a body type to wear i only gain weight from the waist up which is very frustrating
Flattening your stomach will come with weight loss from diet. If you are primarily interested in building muscle lift before cardio so you can give those muscle building exercises your all. I prefer doing weights and cardio on alternating days so I can start each activity refreshed.2 -
Only if your cardio is twerking.Cutaway_Collar wrote: »My head hurts. Will I go to hell if I cardio after weights?
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Thank you for the mental image of @Cutaway_Collar twerking. 0 -
I want to get the most outta my lifts so if I use up all my good energy doing cardio I don't feel as if I'd be as strong. I do a 15 min walk to get the blood flow going first tho.
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NorthCascades wrote: »Ever see anyone depleted from using all their glycogen stores? They don't move.
Yes, I've bonked myself. Continued riding until I got home, but it became much more difficult and painful and my power output fell substantially. I was able to continue exercising without glycogen, by burning only fat, because people can do that.
Also, this only happens when people exert themselves at high intensity. That's what "the fat burning zone" is all about. That's how you do long endurance exercise without bonking, by using mostly fat instead of glycogen, by staying at moderate intensity levels.
I bonked simply by reading this thread; it was exhausting.0 -
I'm tired of this topic. It depends on your goals. Period.0
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After recovering from inflammatory bowel disease (ulcerative colitis in remission), I was left with the propensity to retain inflammation and water weight as a result. Therefore, I need 30-45 minutes of cardio BEFORE I lift. I am always carrying1-2 pounds of inflammation and I am always sore to some degree so a 10 minute cardio warm-up is not enough for me before I lift. It takes me a much longer time to feel loose enough so I don't hurt myself! I am somewhat of an anomaly for my trainer but it works for me, as an individual, but may not for the average "healthy" person.0
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