Intuitive eating - thoughts?
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I'm all for intuitive eating with one cavite: calories still need to be managed because intuition can't always be trusted. I usually eat to satisfaction before logging my food, so in a sense I'm eating intuitively. However, I'm aware of the general calorie impact of my food, and if I know I'm having a higher calorie meal later I pick and choose from the foods I like that I know are lower in calories. If I ate anything that comes to mind every time I was hungry I would not have achieved the loss that I have achieved.
From what I read, the proponents of the movement proclaim that if intuitive eating does not lead to adequate weight loss you need to accept that this is where your body wants to be. I don't believe that people are doomed to be obese for life. Yes, there is a point when one should ask "is it worth it" when evaluating the amount of effort put into staying at a certain vanity weight, but I don't believe for a second that many people would hit that point while still obese.
I do follow a modified version of the main principles that make sense:
1. Reject the Diet Mentality I reject the mentality of dieting, as it is understood by many, but I believe the act of dieting itself (i.e taking steps to control calories) without the usual dieting baggage is necessary for weight loss.
2. Honor Your Hunger I more often than not eat to satisfaction, consuming adequate calories and carbs. There are situations, though, where I get hungry and don't act on that impulse. Hunger is not scary and is an acceptable tradeoff in certain situations.
3. Make Peace with Food I wholeheartedly agree, but making smarter choices in certain situations is an acceptable strategy. That doesn't mean I think certain foods are the devil.
4. Challenge the Food Police 100% agree. Detaching my self-worth from foods and completely uprooting the guilt cycle has been one of the most important (if not the single most important) thing that aided my weight loss.
5. Respect Your Fullness I agree, but don't believe it to be an unbreakable rule. It's okay to be a little bit hungry if you are anticipating a heavier meal later, or to be not hungry and eat for enjoyment sometimes. This should not be an issue as long as it's controlled but not overly stressful. Also, I'm not going to pause and contemplate my fullness. It takes the joy out of the task at hand. When I'm full I'll know it.
6. Discover the Satisfaction Factor Agreed. I always say to myself: if I'm not gonna enjoy it, it's not worth the calories. I might be misunderstanding this point, though, as it's a bit vague.
7. Honor Your Feelings Without Using Food I agree that emotional eating is a problem that needs to be tackled, but some intuitive eaters take this one to extremes. It's okay to want something comforting sometimes. Evolution has given us mechanisms that make us find food comforting and there is nothing wrong with using that when needed, as long as it's controlled and not a compulsion.
8. Respect Your Body Yeah, no. I'm not gonna settle for an obese weight just because I intuitively like to be there. Dieting needs to be made "as simple as possible, but no simpler". Putting in zero effort is not an option.
9. Exercise--Feel the Difference Why can't we have both? I really dislike it when others tell me what my goals and motivations should be. I'm capable of enjoying an activity initially motivated by calorie burn. The two are not mutually exclusive. And even if someone does not enjoy working out, but is disciplined enough to make it a habit, so what? If it's not disruptive or overly stressful, I don't see an issue. You don't stand there and contemplate how much you enjoy brushing your teeth, but you still reap the benefits.
10. Honor Your Health Agree entirely.1 -
kommodevaran wrote: »
I have personally struggled with my weight - either been overweight, or feared getting overweight, and generally worrying about weight, food and eating, all my adult life - until I discovered MFP, that is. I too believed my signals were broken, but it turned out I just had to learn how to pick them up and respect them.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »crzycatlady1 wrote: »I've read their book but for me personally, the intuitive eating method is just not realistic for long term weight loss adherence.
I haven't read their book, but in my experience, a lot of people who have had life long issues with weight won't find success with this method because their hunger signals are permanently "broken". This isn't to say it won't work for a select few, but I'm not ever going to be one of them, that's for sure!
For some other people who've only experienced mild middle-age weight creep and need to learn some new habits? It's a viable thing.
Just to give some perspective.
How you think about food is so important. "Eliminating or severely restricting problem foods" is not "can't or shouldn't have a particular food/deprivation/forbidden food". You have made an informed choice to not eat something that you know is difficult for you to moderate, and the internal fight stops. Another person may have "heard" that this or that food is "bad for you" without understanding what that would mean, without reflecting, without context. That person would soon feel that he/she is missing out, and the fight begins.AlabasterVerve wrote: »3. Make Peace with Food Call a truce, stop the food fight! Give yourself unconditional permission to eat. If you tell yourself that you can't or shouldn't have a particular food, it can lead to intense feelings of deprivation that build into uncontrollable cravings and, often, bingeing When you finally “give-in” to your forbidden food, eating will be experienced with such intensity, it usually results in Last Supper overeating, and overwhelming guilt.
Whatever works is the right way so if changing how you think about food gets the job done I'm all for it but this one bit can absolutely steer some people (like me) in the wrong direction. Sometimes it really is just about the food. Eliminating or severely restricting problem foods is the sustainable way to go for many.
Congratulations on your success with being able to get in touch with your hunger signals!
IRT problem foods, I think the mindset with them is terribly important. I think it's really important to distinguish between the food being the source of the problem or you being the source of the problem, and you've touched on that brilliantly.
When you acknowledge the the problem is you and not the food, you have the tools to deal with the issue flexibly.
I've been able to either restrict completely or moderate, depending on what's going on in my life because I take responsibility for my behavior with food.2 -
Exactly - I get it, and thanks for the reading referralkommodevaran wrote: »
I also found Ellyn Satter's "What is normal eating" a good read. I think it's the amount of stress that makes eating normal or not. It's not that I can't eat an entire cake in one sitting anymore - I could, I love cake - but I won't - there'd be a very special occasion before I eat way way too much. But I'm not worried about weight gain anymore. Because I'm no longer a person who regularly overeats. The stress and worry about the shoulds and shouldn'ts triggered compulsive eating.
I haven't heard it worded like that before, but that's exactly what I had to do, simply because I was driving myself crazy over food choices.kommodevaran wrote: »In my opinion, it's not woo at all - finding food peace is essential to permanently manage weight.
I'm a bit confused about the "adequate energy and carbohydrates" part though, but I assume it's for the ill-informed lowcarbers.
Edited because was unclear.
I hit my goal, and while finding that peace, gained about 4 back, but am now losing that again, fairly quickly.
Now, I do not have the education some of you folks do, but "food peace" makes perfect sense to me, "normalized relations" in that I eat when I'm hungry, stop when no longer hungry, and have no stress over what I'm eating. That's priceless to a guy who could eat an entire cake in one sitting just because it tasted good.
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Thank you! I'm working on it every day. I have had to "calibrate" and "extrapolate" a lot - my understanding of "full" used to be "can't get down another bite"; now I'm slowly learning that I'm not going to starve to death just because I still have room for more. It feels a bit strange, but at the same time, I know that this is how it's supposed to feel like, it feels good, and I feel much more "normal" eating like this.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »
I have personally struggled with my weight - either been overweight, or feared getting overweight, and generally worrying about weight, food and eating, all my adult life - until I discovered MFP, that is. I too believed my signals were broken, but it turned out I just had to learn how to pick them up and respect them.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »crzycatlady1 wrote: »I've read their book but for me personally, the intuitive eating method is just not realistic for long term weight loss adherence.
I haven't read their book, but in my experience, a lot of people who have had life long issues with weight won't find success with this method because their hunger signals are permanently "broken". This isn't to say it won't work for a select few, but I'm not ever going to be one of them, that's for sure!
For some other people who've only experienced mild middle-age weight creep and need to learn some new habits? It's a viable thing.
Just to give some perspective.
How you think about food is so important. "Eliminating or severely restricting problem foods" is not "can't or shouldn't have a particular food/deprivation/forbidden food". You have made an informed choice to not eat something that you know is difficult for you to moderate, and the internal fight stops. Another person may have "heard" that this or that food is "bad for you" without understanding what that would mean, without reflecting, without context. That person would soon feel that he/she is missing out, and the fight begins.AlabasterVerve wrote: »3. Make Peace with Food Call a truce, stop the food fight! Give yourself unconditional permission to eat. If you tell yourself that you can't or shouldn't have a particular food, it can lead to intense feelings of deprivation that build into uncontrollable cravings and, often, bingeing When you finally “give-in” to your forbidden food, eating will be experienced with such intensity, it usually results in Last Supper overeating, and overwhelming guilt.
Whatever works is the right way so if changing how you think about food gets the job done I'm all for it but this one bit can absolutely steer some people (like me) in the wrong direction. Sometimes it really is just about the food. Eliminating or severely restricting problem foods is the sustainable way to go for many.
Congratulations on your success with being able to get in touch with your hunger signals!
I didn't know I was being brilliant, but thanksIRT problem foods, I think the mindset with them is terribly important. I think it's really important to distinguish between the food being the source of the problem or you being the source of the problem, and you've touched on that brilliantly.
When you acknowledge the the problem is you and not the food, you have the tools to deal with the issue flexibly.
I've been able to either restrict completely or moderate, depending on what's going on in my life because I take responsibility for my behavior with food. Still, I'm not sure we are totally in agreement (or maybe we are, lots of semantics in these threads). Sometimes the "fault" does not lie entirely with one or the other - the relationship between the food and the eater is dynamic, and flexibility implies being able to work past the black/white thinking. Understanding what's happening, and not blindly accept externally imposed "rules", can help us form our own habits, habits that are healthy, easy and sustainable. 0 -
My intuition tells me 'eat all the cake, it will make you happy' so it doesn't work for me.
Maybe one day, after a few years of logging and balance I will be able to get the hunger signals working like they should but not now.1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »8. Respect Your Body Yeah, no. I'm not gonna settle for an obese weight just because I intuitively like to be there. Dieting needs to be made "as simple as possible, but no simpler". Putting in zero effort is not an option.
I'm not really interpreting it that way...I'm looking at it more like not everyone can be a size zero for example...my wife, while quite lean will never be a size zero because she has an athletic build and larger bone structure...she's not petite and never will be and it would be unreasonable for her to think she could be...but you see that a lot...people trying to be some body shape that they genetically can't be...also think things like thigh gap, etc.
I'm not interpreting this to mean that it's just ok to be obese because that's just the way you are...2 -
smotheredincheese wrote: »My intuition tells me 'eat all the cake, it will make you happy' so it doesn't work for me.
Maybe one day, after a few years of logging and balance I will be able to get the hunger signals working like they should but not now.
Not cake, but dammit a large deep dish meat lovers pizza sounds good to me right now. No question I could eat 1/2 for lunch and 1/2 for dinner. Wonder what the calorie count would be......0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »8. Respect Your Body Yeah, no. I'm not gonna settle for an obese weight just because I intuitively like to be there. Dieting needs to be made "as simple as possible, but no simpler". Putting in zero effort is not an option.
I'm not really interpreting it that way...I'm looking at it more like not everyone can be a size zero for example...my wife, while quite lean will never be a size zero because she has an athletic build and larger bone structure...she's not petite and never will be and it would be unreasonable for her to think she could be...but you see that a lot...people trying to be some body shape that they genetically can't be...also think things like thigh gap, etc.
I'm not interpreting this to mean that it's just ok to be obese because that's just the way you are...
At the beginning of my post I touched on that point. Of course people need to find a reasonably comfortable maintenance point. I have delved deep into intuitive eating a while back because I'm always on the lookout for things that will make maintenance as smooth as possible, reading all the literature, articles, books, seminars I could get my hands on. The common direction seems to be linked to HAES in way (I did not want to get into that). Some talks even explicitly mentioned that all you need to do is eat intuitively without dieting, and whichever weight you settle at is what your body wants to be and trying to push your weight further down forcefully will suck you back into the dieting mentality, and even if you lose nothing at least you will be happy and learn to accept yourself. It's not an issue of aspiring for an impossible body shape or desiring to be at the bottom of the normal BMI scale.2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »8. Respect Your Body Yeah, no. I'm not gonna settle for an obese weight just because I intuitively like to be there. Dieting needs to be made "as simple as possible, but no simpler". Putting in zero effort is not an option.
I'm not really interpreting it that way...I'm looking at it more like not everyone can be a size zero for example...my wife, while quite lean will never be a size zero because she has an athletic build and larger bone structure...she's not petite and never will be and it would be unreasonable for her to think she could be...but you see that a lot...people trying to be some body shape that they genetically can't be...also think things like thigh gap, etc.
I'm not interpreting this to mean that it's just ok to be obese because that's just the way you are...
At the beginning of my post I touched on that point. Of course people need to find a reasonably comfortable maintenance point. I have delved deep into intuitive eating a while back because I'm always on the lookout for things that will make maintenance as smooth as possible, reading all the literature, articles, books, seminars I could get my hands on. The common direction seems to be linked to HAES in way (I did not want to get into that). Some talks even explicitly mentioned that all you need to do is eat intuitively without dieting, and whichever weight you settle at is what your body wants to be and trying to push your weight further down forcefully will suck you back into the dieting mentality, and even if you lose nothing at least you will be happy and learn to accept yourself. It's not an issue of aspiring for an impossible body shape or desiring to be at the bottom of the normal BMI scale.
That was pretty much what I found after my reading on the subject too, and like you, I didn't want to get into that either.
The notion of intuitively eating and just accepting that you have to be overweight if that's what you settle at (which is how I also interpreted that "respecting your body") troubles me, especially given the societal trend happening with the normalization of obesity.
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I am doing the intuitive eating approach and log every now and then just to give me an idea. Although I do portion control and usually am full at the end of my meal. A lot of people say that intuitive eating is what got them fat but really you r probably stuffing your intuition way down when you decide to eat a whole large bag of chips or a box of cookies in a a day. I know when I use to binge my inner voice use to scream to stop which I call my intuition. Now I am 30 pounds down, feel comfortable after eating because I am not stuffed and food is not constantly on my mind because there are no forbidden foods. Now certain occasions make this approach a little more difficult like the upcoming holidays but I plan to follow the same approach. Only eat when actually hungry and stop when I start to feel full. And if I splurge a little, get back to normal eating the following day. Part of this approach is also learning how different foods make you feel and choosing the ones that make you feel better. Now I love me some deep fried food and sweets but I usually feel gross after so I limit these. A diet filled with lean proteins and veggies and fruits as well as healthy fats gives me energy and keeps me feeling full longer. Go figure that eating intuitively resembles a balanced diet. Sorry for the long post.2
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amusedmonkey wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »8. Respect Your Body Yeah, no. I'm not gonna settle for an obese weight just because I intuitively like to be there. Dieting needs to be made "as simple as possible, but no simpler". Putting in zero effort is not an option.
I'm not really interpreting it that way...I'm looking at it more like not everyone can be a size zero for example...my wife, while quite lean will never be a size zero because she has an athletic build and larger bone structure...she's not petite and never will be and it would be unreasonable for her to think she could be...but you see that a lot...people trying to be some body shape that they genetically can't be...also think things like thigh gap, etc.
I'm not interpreting this to mean that it's just ok to be obese because that's just the way you are...
At the beginning of my post I touched on that point. Of course people need to find a reasonably comfortable maintenance point. I have delved deep into intuitive eating a while back because I'm always on the lookout for things that will make maintenance as smooth as possible, reading all the literature, articles, books, seminars I could get my hands on. The common direction seems to be linked to HAES in way (I did not want to get into that). Some talks even explicitly mentioned that all you need to do is eat intuitively without dieting, and whichever weight you settle at is what your body wants to be and trying to push your weight further down forcefully will suck you back into the dieting mentality, and even if you lose nothing at least you will be happy and learn to accept yourself. It's not an issue of aspiring for an impossible body shape or desiring to be at the bottom of the normal BMI scale.
I think this is still valid though...and isn't necessarily meant to say, "you're obese...it's ok." I've learned that about 180 and 12-14% BF is my happy place...I maintain pretty easily there without having to give too much thought to things and I can just kind of live my life...it's respectably lean and "fit looking", but not exceptionally so.
I've tried to go lower and it's a struggle because at that point I'm no longer just "me doing me"...so in that regard, I've accepted that given my lifestyle, 12-15% is just fine...it's completely healthy and I don't have to be a diet and exercise nazi to maintain it...I just do me and it happens naturally. I usually just describe it as doing the things that lean, healthy, and fit people do for the most part...
But yeah...I guess I could see how someone might misinterpret that...but at the same time, if they're settling for obese then they're really not too concerned with their overall health.0 -
I wish I could do it, but every time I've stopped counting calories and tried to just "listen to my body", I've gained weight.6
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I completely agree with the 10 principles actually. My issue is that it's just not going to cut it for most people because...
1) people who are overweight or obese usually don't have reliable hunger signals
2) even if people have reliable hunger signals, a lot of people struggling with weight have a hard time saying no to a cookie even if they are not hungry
3) it doesn't take food quality into question at all. Raise your hand if you can eat 1000 calories of bread and still be hungry...
Honestly, if I didn't log and just followed those 10 principles, I'd end up gaining weight back. So yeah... good in theory, in practice.. not so much.5 -
I completely agree with the 10 principles actually. My issue is that it's just not going to cut it for most people because...
1) people who are overweight or obese usually don't have reliable hunger signals
2) even if people have reliable hunger signals, a lot of people struggling with weight have a hard time saying no to a cookie even if they are not hungry
3) it doesn't take food quality into question at all. Raise your hand if you can eat 1000 calories of bread and still be hungry...
Honestly, if I didn't log and just followed those 10 principles, I'd end up gaining weight back. So yeah... good in theory, in practice.. not so much.
I guess it just depends on where you're coming from...I never really had a problem with overeating per sei...I never had a weight problem growing up or anything like that...I was always very active in sports and in college I didn't own a car and walked everywhere or road my bike and spent a lot of time with my buddies smoking pot and hiking and playing ultimate frisbee...
I gained weight when I graduated and took a desk job and went from being very active to sedentary but I didn't understand that I would need to compensate with less food and/or start doing deliberate exercise. I didn't actually change my diet substantively when I lost weight other than trying to get in more fruits and vegetables...but I didn't really have to do anything crazy or practice any kind of food avoidance...really, just kicking up the activity level pretty much did it...along with dropping soda as a regular in my diet.0 -
I completely agree with the 10 principles actually. My issue is that it's just not going to cut it for most people because...
1) people who are overweight or obese usually don't have reliable hunger signals
2) even if people have reliable hunger signals, a lot of people struggling with weight have a hard time saying no to a cookie even if they are not hungry
3) it doesn't take food quality into question at all. Raise your hand if you can eat 1000 calories of bread and still be hungry...
Honestly, if I didn't log and just followed those 10 principles, I'd end up gaining weight back. So yeah... good in theory, in practice.. not so much.
**Standing ovation** You nailed it right there.1 -
So this probably resonates more for me, as the parent of a kid with feeding issues, but it may be worth thinking about for anyone here who's a parent as well. I learned about intuitive eating as it relates to parenting/feeding my child, and helping her--even at age five--learn to recognize her own cues, make her own choices, and speak up for her needs. For many of us, intuitive eating will be a struggle, because we learned along the way--whether at home, through other relationships, or because of our environment, to respond to other cues and influences in making our choices about food.
As parents, we can't control everything in our kids' lives. And we want to help support their healthy development. But part of this, I've learned through this experience, is _trusting them_ to lead and make decisions along the way. This doesn't mean allowing a toddler or young child to eat nothing but candy and junk. But it does mean letting them control what they eat of the foods you offer (per Ellyn Satter, referenced above), and making sure that at least some of what you offer is what they like. How many of us have bartered vegetables for dessert or pushed our kids to take one more bite when they say they don't want to? This is part of what leads to us ignoring our own instincts about being hungry or full, curious about new tastes or reluctant.
Ask my daughter to try something she doesn't want and she'll politely say no thank you. Tell her she has to do it and she's learned to say "It's my body, and I make the choices."0 -
CattOfTheGarage wrote: »crzycatlady1 wrote: »I've read their book but for me personally, the intuitive eating method is just not realistic for long term weight loss adherence.
I can identify with this, but at the same time I feel there are things to learn from the approach. Thanks for the link, OP, I'll check it out later on.
I think the approach is sensible, but I reject the idea that humans (or all humans) innately intuitively eat, if that means won't eat more than we need to maintain a healthy weight unless we are somehow messed up. I think humans evolved in a situation in which overeating wasn't a problem and being able to eat when food was available was a positive, so that for many of us desire to eat exists if tempting food is around is not surprising.
I don't plan to count and log at maintenance (and haven't been), but for me it's not intuitive eating, but mindful eating -- I eat based on schedule and with an eye to reasonable portion size.
I totally agree with the normalizing your relationship with food stuff and feel fortunate that beyond some minor aspects that one picks up in society I have never really been into the dieting culture (and didn't diet when young or before learning how calories and nutrition worked and all that), so mostly didn't internalize a lot of the "X=bad" stuff. I do have some other weird food things due to being kind of obsessive but not things that make me feel guilty based on food choice.1 -
This is so important. I don't really feel the need to separate mindful and intuitive and normal eating anymore, they are all one and the same to me. Normal eating is a negative feedback loop - you regulate intake by eating less after eating more. Mindful eating is consciously taking care of your needs, which include good health, which includes normal weight. Intuitive eating means automatically/habitually eating what you truly need. Nature prioritizes need, and there hasn't been a need for a hunger off-switch until the last 30-80 years. Until then, food has been scarce. And even in times of plenty, there have been cultural restrictions. We used to eat meals, together, and share. The feeling of "full" is an aquired skill. You learn what is acceptable growing up. If your family overeat, you learn to overeat. It's way more difficult to learn to stop eating before you are stuffed as an adult, but it can be done, and it's necessary. Portioning out set meals works for me.lemurcat12 wrote: »CattOfTheGarage wrote: »crzycatlady1 wrote: »I've read their book but for me personally, the intuitive eating method is just not realistic for long term weight loss adherence.
I can identify with this, but at the same time I feel there are things to learn from the approach. Thanks for the link, OP, I'll check it out later on.
I think the approach is sensible, but I reject the idea that humans (or all humans) innately intuitively eat, if that means won't eat more than we need to maintain a healthy weight unless we are somehow messed up. I think humans evolved in a situation in which overeating wasn't a problem and being able to eat when food was available was a positive, so that for many of us desire to eat exists if tempting food is around is not surprising.
I don't plan to count and log at maintenance (and haven't been), but for me it's not intuitive eating, but mindful eating -- I eat based on schedule and with an eye to reasonable portion size.
I totally agree with the normalizing your relationship with food stuff and feel fortunate that beyond some minor aspects that one picks up in society I have never really been into the dieting culture (and didn't diet when young or before learning how calories and nutrition worked and all that), so mostly didn't internalize a lot of the "X=bad" stuff. I do have some other weird food things due to being kind of obsessive but not things that make me feel guilty based on food choice.
Then there is the issue of food choices. Some modern foods are made to be overeaten, so to speak. It sets off a positive feedback loop - you eat more, and you just want more and more. The sensitivity to the alluring qualities of (junk) food varies from individual to individual, just as not everybody is going to be an alcoholic or addicted to nicotine or caffeine or gambling or porn.
Because we have different reactions, mental and physical and habitual, these discussions are going to get inflamed.
Just as I dislike being told what to eat and not eat, I dislike being told what I should feel and shouldn't feel, and that I'm not even feeling what I am feeling. I'm not much of an emotional eater (grateful for that), but I do have tendencies. When I'm frustrated - often when I feel criticized and have no way of "defending" myself - I feel threatened. One of the greatest threats to an animal, is food scarcity. So - automatic thought - find food. Problem: Too much food. I need another course of action. Get up, read a book, take a shower. Lol, even crying is better than eating when I don't need more food. And learning more appropriate ways to soothe oneself is challenging too, but also necessary.0 -
Maybe I am just mentally wired in a different way, but to me that article had more straw men than a Wizard of Oz convention.4
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Lost 7 pounds intuitive eating so far. Been doing it for a month. Time will tell i guess. I used to not be able to have chips or chocolate in the house or this compulsive voice in my head would not let me relax until it was all gone. I now have all my favourite 'trigger' foods sat in my cupboards and it isn't an issue any more. Intuitive eating isn't just eat whatever you want whenever you want. You need to be honest and mindful as to whether you are genuinely hungry or just craving. Figuring that out is the tricky part. Intuitive eating combined with some things i learned reading Brain over Binge have been really helpful for me. It's nice not having to use 'willpower' and 'self control' 24 72
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