I cannot ever stay in a deficit without having severe insomnia. Feeling hopeless, scared.
charlenekapf
Posts: 309 Member
I have tried herbs, wine, low carb, high carb, low fat, high fat, high protein, medium protein for months, years. I am so tired of sleeping so horribly...I can tell when I am under my maintenance calories and feel so wired it's hard to fall asleep but ever worse, stay asleep. I fight tooth and nail every time I manage to not go over my maintenance calories and go to bed to not eat in the middle of the night. I went to a Dr. who is a "holistic" md and gave me 5 different herbs to try in various combinations...they do not work at all. over the years I've tried melatonin, hops, valerian, passiongflower ,ZMA, gaba, magnesium...nothing.
I am debating seeing a psychiatrist because I'm so anxious and depressed over this and have put on 40 lbs. alone this year. I practice intermittent fasting and the first past of the day is OK and I feel good but once I start eating, I am a bottomless pit. Eating breakfast did not help, and I workout different times of the day....nothing has made a difference. Has anyone dealt with this? Any tips?
I'm not asking for a diary analysis as I have truly tried many different food combinations...this insomnia all began years ago when I dieted successfully and lost a lot of weight quickly but ever since then, if I somehow manage to keep calories maybe like 100-300 below maintenance, I wake up wired and toss and turn, do my best convince myself not to eat. Losing 1 lb. a week is impossible even though I have a lot of weight to lose (~40lbs). At such a loss and am stuck in a cycle of bouncing back from going way over calories, going slightly under but not enough to make a difference and being sleep deprived, then eating too much out of sleep deprivation and hunger.
I am debating seeing a psychiatrist because I'm so anxious and depressed over this and have put on 40 lbs. alone this year. I practice intermittent fasting and the first past of the day is OK and I feel good but once I start eating, I am a bottomless pit. Eating breakfast did not help, and I workout different times of the day....nothing has made a difference. Has anyone dealt with this? Any tips?
I'm not asking for a diary analysis as I have truly tried many different food combinations...this insomnia all began years ago when I dieted successfully and lost a lot of weight quickly but ever since then, if I somehow manage to keep calories maybe like 100-300 below maintenance, I wake up wired and toss and turn, do my best convince myself not to eat. Losing 1 lb. a week is impossible even though I have a lot of weight to lose (~40lbs). At such a loss and am stuck in a cycle of bouncing back from going way over calories, going slightly under but not enough to make a difference and being sleep deprived, then eating too much out of sleep deprivation and hunger.
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Replies
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Coming from a fellow insomniac, it sounds to me that your anxiety about food (hitting certain macro levels, calorie counting, etc) is making your insomnia worse. I suspect talking to a therapist about the association you've made between food and sleep - and how that association is causing you anxiety - will help. As you work on that underlying issue, having a conversation with a sleep therapist will probably also be beneficial. For me, the only time food affects my sleep is if I have caffeine past 2pm or alcohol with or after dinner. My sleepless nights are usually the result of unaddressed stress and anxiety from other aspects of my life.12
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Just throwing it out there - but it sounds like there may be something else going on. I wonder if you would have any luck attending to this from the angle of addressing the anxiety and depression? It might be very helpful to consult with a psychiatrist. Have you tried any kind of guided relaxation to help you sleep? There are many options on youtube.2
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Sleep is so important to weight loss, that must be tough. You didn't mention exercise, do you get enough? Have you tried eating at maintenance and creating a deficit via cardio/weights rather than calories? I've had sleep issues (at any weight) but find that by getting up at 5:45 every day and going to bed at 9:30, it helps. Im very consistent, even on weekends. I run/walk for 60 minutes every day and lift every other day.2
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Well, my first suggestion is that if you are doing IF now and have this insomnia and binge eating issue, try not doing IF. Were you fasting like that when you first developed insomnia? And if you are taking any of the many supplements/herbs on your list currently, stop them to see if that helps. If you are taking any medication at all from aspirin to birth control, check to see if there is any possibility that could be affecting sleep or hunger levels.
I guess you've tried eating right before bed? If yes and that didn't help, you may want to look up the eating disorder "night eating syndrome": waldeneatingdisorders.com/popular-searches/night-eating-syndrome-nes/
By all means, make an appointment too with a psychiatrist for the anxiety and depression. Both are often linked to insomnia. Though it sounds to me more like "hunger waking you up" than "can't go to/stay asleep."
Next suggestion if those don't help is to actually find a sleep specialist doc. Look for a doc that specializes in insomnia and sleep disorders, your standard general practitioner may not be as helpful. You could see if there's an actual medical sleep clinic in your area, they may recommend local docs even if you don't fit that specific clinic's patient profile.
Best wishes that you find a solution! I just have regular insomnia, that's bad enough without midnight hunger, that must be terrible.
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The only time I experienced insomnia tied to weight loss was when I was on a (medically supervised) VLCD diet. My poor body was jumping to go find calories.
Intermittent fasting might be making it worse for you.
I like the idea that you eat at maintenance and exercise in to deficit. Vigorous cardio always makes me sleepy. Especially if I run in the cold, followed by a toasty bask under an electric blanket.3 -
The only time dieting keeps me awake is if I go to bed really hungry. I've learned to distinguish between a little hungry and hungry enough to keep me awake. If necessary, I eat some cheese before bed. That stops the hunger. Evening snacks usually are bananas or milk or hot chocolate, which also tend to promote sleepiness.
I agree with the above poster that the fasting is not working for you if it leads to gorging. I don't do well with a very low calorie diet. It just makes me obsess about food. I'm happier if I eat more, but exercise more as well. The exercise also helps with depression and anxiety, especially if I can be outdoors.4 -
I exercise every day, almost. Cardio and weights. Alternate different muscle groups and do only cardio on days when I'm recovering from lifting. I lift heavy and am always sore in a different muscle group I train. I don't workout too late, on the earlier side. I find sleep to be a separate issue from the working out although I notice I feel better after working out.Sleep is so important to weight loss, that must be tough. You didn't mention exercise, do you get enough? Have you tried eating at maintenance and creating a deficit via cardio/weights rather than calories? I've had sleep issues (at any weight) but find that by getting up at 5:45 every day and going to bed at 9:30, it helps. Im very consistent, even on weekends. I run/walk for 60 minutes every day and lift every other day.0
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I was not fasting when I developed the IF. But it later became helpful to at least feel more full at night when the insomnia and night eating began. I would at least delay meals so I would eat less calories in the 24 hours. I am now off all herbs as they are not helpful. I'm not taking any meds. was on thyroid medication but got heart palpitations after 9 mos. of armour. I've searched NES and BED and both don't really have cures...kind of feel defeated. I agree about the psychiatrist although not sure how it will help. Definitely can't stay asleep and deficits exacerbate it greatly. When I overeat I sleep throughout the night but obviously don't want to keep doing that. Thank you for understanding how horrible the insomnia is
Well, my first suggestion is that if you are doing IF now and have this insomnia and binge eating issue, try not doing IF. Were you fasting like that when you first developed insomnia? And if you are taking any of the many supplements/herbs on your list currently, stop them to see if that helps. If you are taking any medication at all from aspirin to birth control, check to see if there is any possibility that could be affecting sleep or hunger levels.
I guess you've tried eating right before bed? If yes and that didn't help, you may want to look up the eating disorder "night eating syndrome": waldeneatingdisorders.com/popular-searches/night-eating-syndrome-nes/
By all means, make an appointment too with a psychiatrist for the anxiety and depression. Both are often linked to insomnia. Though it sounds to me more like "hunger waking you up" than "can't go to/stay asleep."
Next suggestion if those don't help is to actually find a sleep specialist doc. Look for a doc that specializes in insomnia and sleep disorders, your standard general practitioner may not be as helpful. You could see if there's an actual medical sleep clinic in your area, they may recommend local docs even if you don't fit that specific clinic's patient profile.
Best wishes that you find a solution! I just have regular insomnia, that's bad enough without midnight hunger, that must be terrible.0 -
The only time I experienced insomnia tied to weight loss was when I was on a (medically supervised) VLCD diet. My poor body was jumping to go find calories.
Intermittent fasting might be making it worse for you.
I like the idea that you eat at maintenance and exercise in to deficit. Vigorous cardio always makes me sleepy. Especially if I run in the cold, followed by a toasty bask under an electric blanket.
Thank you for this suggestion. More carbs slightly help. But then I also get reactive hunger from them. Ugh. Exercise helps wonders for how I feel but the insomnia makes exercising much harder.0 -
A mild calorie deficit shouldn't give you any trouble. Your body is supposed to "eat" from your energy stores, it does that beween meals anyway, even when you are in a calorie balance. In a sustained deficit, the periods of "eating" just get longer, and the periods of "storing" gets shorter.
I had a peek at your diary (against you explicit wish, yes, because your diet is crucial), and what hit me is 1) the lack of consistent logging 2) the lack of consistent eating. When you eat well, you seem to eat very well. But you need to do that through the day, every day. Treats are for special occasions, especially when you want to lose weight. Get in more real food, and more regularly. I think the stress form trying all sorts of things is just making your insomnia worse.0 -
I log my foods on live strong and only have used the diary a few times, as you mentioned when live strong was down. That is why my intake is not on there. I do log everyday, but rarely am able to stay in a deficit, as I mentioned.kommodevaran wrote: »A mild calorie deficit shouldn't give you any trouble. Your body is supposed to "eat" from your energy stores, it does that beween meals anyway, even when you are in a calorie balance. In a sustained deficit, the periods of "eating" just get longer, and the periods of "storing" gets shorter.
I had a peek at your diary (against you explicit wish, yes, because your diet is crucial), and what hit me is 1) the lack of consistent logging 2) the lack of consistent eating. When you eat well, you seem to eat very well. But you need to do that through the day, every day. Treats are for special occasions, especially when you want to lose weight. Get in more real food, and more regularly. I think the stress form trying all sorts of things is just making your insomnia worse.0 -
Can I suggest going to a doctor who will do more than prescribe herbs?1
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I don't know what you are eating, so you may already do this. Have you tried making a larger part of your daily food bulky/low-calorie foods (like vegetables)? If your stomach is FULL it seems you'd be less likely to keep eating ("I am a bottomless pit").
Another thought: if you usually wake up hungry, can you just plan some of your calories for the middle of the night? I suggest this to take away some of the "OH NO! Not AGAIN!" stress. If you change it to "Okay, I'm awake and hungry, I'll eat these crackers or cheese or piece of turkey (or whatever) that I planned for and then go back to bed," maybe that could keep you calmer and ease your hunger and make it just a little easier to fall asleep.0 -
yes. I thought she was both as she had an MD. frustrating.Tacklewasher wrote: »Can I suggest going to a doctor who will do more than prescribe herbs?
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I eat huge bags of broccoli and cauliflower and then 20 mins later my stomach feels empty. It's like they bloat me and keep me full for a very short period of time.benevempress wrote: »I don't know what you are eating, so you may already do this. Have you tried making a larger part of your daily food bulky/low-calorie foods (like vegetables)? If your stomach is FULL it seems you'd be less likely to keep eating ("I am a bottomless pit").
Another thought: if you usually wake up hungry, can you just plan some of your calories for the middle of the night? I suggest this to take away some of the "OH NO! Not AGAIN!" stress. If you change it to "Okay, I'm awake and hungry, I'll eat these crackers or cheese or piece of turkey (or whatever) that I planned for and then go back to bed," maybe that could keep you calmer and ease your hunger and make it just a little easier to fall asleep.0 -
charlenekapf wrote: »yes. I thought she was both as she had an MD. frustrating.Tacklewasher wrote: »Can I suggest going to a doctor who will do more than prescribe herbs?
She may be. I had a doctor who, as far as I could tell, had an interest in the local health food store. Would write out prescriptions for homeopathic *kitten*, on his actual prescription pad. My honest take is he figured most people were just paranoid and didn't really need medicine so he patted them on their back and sent them on their way with a placebo.
Either go back and be pushy with the current one, or find a new one, which may be vary difficult depending on where you are. I know finding a doctor in the part of Canada I live in is extremely difficult.4 -
You aren't eating meals consisting solely of vegetables? There's normally no need to eat large amount of vegetables. Stick to reasonable amounts, distributed into portions of 70-300 grams, depending on which meal (breakfast, lunch, dinner), what kind of meal (vegetarian or mixed) and type of diet (omnivore, vegetarian or vegan). And choose a great variety - remember, all the colors of the rainbow.charlenekapf wrote: »I eat huge bags of broccoli and cauliflower and then 20 mins later my stomach feels empty. It's like they bloat me and keep me full for a very short period of time.benevempress wrote: »I don't know what you are eating, so you may already do this. Have you tried making a larger part of your daily food bulky/low-calorie foods (like vegetables)? If your stomach is FULL it seems you'd be less likely to keep eating ("I am a bottomless pit").
Another thought: if you usually wake up hungry, can you just plan some of your calories for the middle of the night? I suggest this to take away some of the "OH NO! Not AGAIN!" stress. If you change it to "Okay, I'm awake and hungry, I'll eat these crackers or cheese or piece of turkey (or whatever) that I planned for and then go back to bed," maybe that could keep you calmer and ease your hunger and make it just a little easier to fall asleep.
But is your diet similar to that when you are logging on livestrong? If you are eating a large proportion of "junk", you aren't getting enough nutrition, even though you get (more than) enough calories, and that makes you hungry, and when you are hungry, it's hard to fall asleep, and hard to stick to your allotted calories.charlenekapf wrote: »I log my foods on live strong and only have used the diary a few times, as you mentioned when live strong was down. That is why my intake is not on there. I do log everyday, but rarely am able to stay in a deficit, as I mentioned.kommodevaran wrote: »A mild calorie deficit shouldn't give you any trouble. Your body is supposed to "eat" from your energy stores, it does that beween meals anyway, even when you are in a calorie balance. In a sustained deficit, the periods of "eating" just get longer, and the periods of "storing" gets shorter.
I had a peek at your diary (against you explicit wish, yes, because your diet is crucial), and what hit me is 1) the lack of consistent logging 2) the lack of consistent eating. When you eat well, you seem to eat very well. But you need to do that through the day, every day. Treats are for special occasions, especially when you want to lose weight. Get in more real food, and more regularly. I think the stress form trying all sorts of things is just making your insomnia worse.0 -
Just a thought: Others here please weigh in on this.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/163169.phpFrom a nutritional perspective, several research studies have shown certain minerals to be effective natural sleep aids that help people fall asleep and stay asleep through the night. James F. Balch, M.D., author of Prescription for Nutritional Healing, writes: "A lack of the nutrients calcium and magnesium will cause you to wake up after a few hours and not be able to return to sleep."
Calcium is directly related to our cycles of sleep. In one study, published in the European Neurology Journal, researchers found that calcium levels in the body are higher during some of the deepest levels of sleep, such as the rapid eye movement (REM) phase. The study concluded that disturbances in sleep, especially the absence of REM deep sleep or disturbed REM sleep, are related to a calcium deficiency. Restoration to the normal course of sleep was achieved following the normalization of the blood calcium level.
William Sears, M.D. writes: "Calcium helps the brain use the amino acid tryptophan to manufacture the sleep-inducing substance melatonin. This explains why dairy products, which contain both tryptophan and calcium, are one of the top sleep-inducing foods."
In magnesium deficiency, chronic insomnia is one of the main, central symptoms. Sleep is usually agitated with frequent nighttime awakenings. On the other hand, a high magnesium, low aluminum diet has been found to be associated with deeper, less interrupted sleep. This was proven in a study done by James Penland at the Human Nutrition Research Center in North Dakota. The study was titled "Effects of trace element nutrition on sleep patterns in adult women." It's important to note that a balanced ratio of calcium and magnesium is important to overall health, and these two minerals should be taken together for best results.0 -
Huh. This winter I started to take a winter supplement with Vit D, calcium, and magnesium since my bloodwork showed the need for D. I think I may have been sleeping better when I look at how that correlates with my sleep habits.
OP, if your doc was shoving you at herbs before running a full blood panel to check for deficiencies, definitely try another doc. Heck, I don't have a GP, hadn't had blood drawn in years. My gynecologist asked about a GP at my first appointment with her, ran the bloodwork and caught the really low D levels.
I believe low vitamin B can also contribute to insomnia. At any rate, a blood panel is a simple screening that may help.2 -
charlenekapf wrote: »The only time I experienced insomnia tied to weight loss was when I was on a (medically supervised) VLCD diet. My poor body was jumping to go find calories.
Intermittent fasting might be making it worse for you.
I like the idea that you eat at maintenance and exercise in to deficit. Vigorous cardio always makes me sleepy. Especially if I run in the cold, followed by a toasty bask under an electric blanket.
Thank you for this suggestion. More carbs slightly help. But then I also get reactive hunger from them. Ugh. Exercise helps wonders for how I feel but the insomnia makes exercising much harder.
So does this mean you're keeping carbs pretty low? I get similar issues with insomnia and low cals/carbs. I find it helps to eat more carbs and put the majority of them in the last meal of the day. Not sure what the timing is like for your reactive hunger, but you should be asleep for most of it this way and you'll be IF-ing in the morning anyway.0 -
What you are describing reminds me of someone I know who is bipolar with severe ADHD.
Please do see a psychiatrist, if only to rule out a possible issue that needs to be addressed. Your GP might be a good first stop, for a referral as well as checking your vitamin D and thyroid levels.
I agree that taking magnesium might be helpful, but a lack of magnesium doesn't explain everything you have going on.2 -
When I'm totally stressed out and think I may not have a good night of sleep (I.e. Stressful situation at work bugging me) I soak in a hot bath right before bedtime, with lots of Epsom bath salt (has lots of magnesium). It lowers my blood pressure...sometimes so much it's literally hard to stand up straight, and I just crash out afterwards and sleep like a baby. Will it work for you? I don't know...but, I really hope you will find something. I can't imagine how painful your situation must be.1
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Thank you. I think it's worth checking out as well. I tried magnesium for years with no help. I took citrate, malate, carbonate and no form worked. Have also taken epsom salt bath...made my heart skip beats and make me feel physically tired but not my brain. Thank you for your suggestions.azulvioleta6 wrote: »What you are describing reminds me of someone I know who is bipolar with severe ADHD.
Please do see a psychiatrist, if only to rule out a possible issue that needs to be addressed. Your GP might be a good first stop, for a referral as well as checking your vitamin D and thyroid levels.
I agree that taking magnesium might be helpful, but a lack of magnesium doesn't explain everything you have going on.0 -
I have tried various amount of carbs. from very low to very high with fats inversely correlated to amount of carbs. The problem is that I wakeup from the reactive hunger. I should be asleep but my problem is I wake up.charlenekapf wrote: »The only time I experienced insomnia tied to weight loss was when I was on a (medically supervised) VLCD diet. My poor body was jumping to go find calories.
Intermittent fasting might be making it worse for you.
I like the idea that you eat at maintenance and exercise in to deficit. Vigorous cardio always makes me sleepy. Especially if I run in the cold, followed by a toasty bask under an electric blanket.
Thank you for this suggestion. More carbs slightly help. But then I also get reactive hunger from them. Ugh. Exercise helps wonders for how I feel but the insomnia makes exercising much harder.
So does this mean you're keeping carbs pretty low? I get similar issues with insomnia and low cals/carbs. I find it helps to eat more carbs and put the majority of them in the last meal of the day. Not sure what the timing is like for your reactive hunger, but you should be asleep for most of it this way and you'll be IF-ing in the morning anyway.0 -
charlenekapf wrote: »I eat huge bags of broccoli and cauliflower and then 20 mins later my stomach feels empty. It's like they bloat me and keep me full for a very short period of time.
I just looked this up for someone else, and it might be worth looking into:
Cruciferous vegetables (cabbage family - cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, bok choi, brussels sprouts ETC) are very nutritious BUT they CAN interfere with your thyroid functioning. ESPECIALLY if you eat them raw (which it sounds like you might, if you'er eating "bags" of them?).
Try cutting back on the cabbage family and finding some other veggie options. Cabbage family veggies can also cause serious gas which makes you feel bloated and uncomfortable and could put pressure on your diaphragm in ways that keep you from sleeping well?
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thanks for this. I am aware of the negative effect they have on thyroid and cooking them supposedly makes them OK. however I agree that too much veg can also be bad for sleeping well.charlenekapf wrote: »I eat huge bags of broccoli and cauliflower and then 20 mins later my stomach feels empty. It's like they bloat me and keep me full for a very short period of time.
I just looked this up for someone else, and it might be worth looking into:
Cruciferous vegetables (cabbage family - cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, bok choi, brussels sprouts ETC) are very nutritious BUT they CAN interfere with your thyroid functioning. ESPECIALLY if you eat them raw (which it sounds like you might, if you'er eating "bags" of them?).
Try cutting back on the cabbage family and finding some other veggie options. Cabbage family veggies can also cause serious gas which makes you feel bloated and uncomfortable and could put pressure on your diaphragm in ways that keep you from sleeping well?0 -
charlenekapf wrote: »I was not fasting when I developed the IF. But it later became helpful to at least feel more full at night when the insomnia and night eating began. I would at least delay meals so I would eat less calories in the 24 hours. I am now off all herbs as they are not helpful. I'm not taking any meds. was on thyroid medication but got heart palpitations after 9 mos. of armour. I've searched NES and BED and both don't really have cures...kind of feel defeated. I agree about the psychiatrist although not sure how it will help. Definitely can't stay asleep and deficits exacerbate it greatly. When I overeat I sleep throughout the night but obviously don't want to keep doing that. Thank you for understanding how horrible the insomnia isWell, my first suggestion is that if you are doing IF now and have this insomnia and binge eating issue, try not doing IF. Were you fasting like that when you first developed insomnia? And if you are taking any of the many supplements/herbs on your list currently, stop them to see if that helps. If you are taking any medication at all from aspirin to birth control, check to see if there is any possibility that could be affecting sleep or hunger levels.
I guess you've tried eating right before bed? If yes and that didn't help, you may want to look up the eating disorder "night eating syndrome": waldeneatingdisorders.com/popular-searches/night-eating-syndrome-nes/
By all means, make an appointment too with a psychiatrist for the anxiety and depression. Both are often linked to insomnia. Though it sounds to me more like "hunger waking you up" than "can't go to/stay asleep."
Next suggestion if those don't help is to actually find a sleep specialist doc. Look for a doc that specializes in insomnia and sleep disorders, your standard general practitioner may not be as helpful. You could see if there's an actual medical sleep clinic in your area, they may recommend local docs even if you don't fit that specific clinic's patient profile.
Best wishes that you find a solution! I just have regular insomnia, that's bad enough without midnight hunger, that must be terrible.
The bold is important! Being hypothyroid can make you more hungry. It is important to get your thyroid hormones right! What right is is different for every person. Don't think of the pills as medication but as a hormone your body needs but doesn't produce anymore in sufficient quantities by itself. Being hypo can also result in sleeping poorly. I know if my thyroid medication is too low I don't sleep well and wake up a lot. Being too high on the hormone can cause palpitations, as can being too low. It's all a question of finding the right dose. That's not something you'll find in a few days as it takes 6 weeks approximately to build up a steady level. Just looking at blood results isn't right either as every person is different. It's probably best to start with a low dose, see how you feel, do a blood test, and then slowly go higher every 6 weeks or so. Also, most hypothyroidism is of the autoimmune type. That means your body attacks your thyroid and destroys it. Especially early on, bigger chunks of tissue might get destroyed which releases higher amounts of hormone. Then it's very easy to have periods where you're actually hyperthyroid, and your medication will be far too high! The palpitations might have originated from one such episode. Thus taking thyroid hormone is a necessity, but it doesn't mean you need to same amount all the time. Get started with this: get a proper doctor who can help you with that.
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