Ketogenic Diet
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LCHF/LC hybrid. I do what works because BACON!!!!1
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SOS! I'm confused. I have never really concentrated on macros - I just threw in percentages on MFP. How does ketogenic work in relation to calories? Does it still boil down to CICO for weight loss or is there something special about the low carb? And how low daily? I'm not really into bread or pasta so I'm thinking this could work for me?0
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CeeBeeSlim wrote: »SOS! I'm confused. I have never really concentrated on macros - I just threw in percentages on MFP. How does ketogenic work in relation to calories? Does it still boil down to CICO for weight loss or is there something special about the low carb? And how low daily? I'm not really into bread or pasta so I'm thinking this could work for me?
It always boils down to CICO for weight loss, no matter what. Keto can't circumvent the laws of energy balance.1 -
@Anvil_Head Thanks! So what figures into the decision to go low carb? Is the weight loss faster, easier, one feels better, other?0
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CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@Anvil_Head Thanks! So what figures into the decision to go low carb? Is the weight loss faster, easier, one feels better, other?
I can only speak for myself, but LCHF allows me to eat at the necessary calorie deficit without having to go hungry. So, yes, it makes it easier (again, speaking for myself here), and I feel better (no crazy hunger, no having to eat every two-three hours to stave off hypoglycemia). I won't say the loss was faster, per se, but it was more consistent, but that was due to better adherence. Let's face it, if you are hungry all the time, you are eventually going eat more than planned, which can wreck your deficit (and make you feel bad/guilty, which can lead to giving up, at least for a time). With low carb I could comfortably eat 1600-1700 cal per day, without hunger. On a higher carb diet, I was hungry on 1800 per day. Made it next to impossible to stay low enough on calories, long enough to see results.
As an added bonus, my eczema cleared up. It was totally unexpected (and wonderful!). So, yes, for me weight loss was easier, faster (more consistent), and I feel better. I've been eating this way for over three years and can't imagine going back. Heck, if I go too far off plan, my hands start to show the tell tale signs of an eczema flare up. That's reason enough for me to stick with it!
Hope that helped!
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CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@Anvil_Head Thanks! So what figures into the decision to go low carb? Is the weight loss faster, easier, one feels better, other?
1) Faster weight loss in the beginning, purely due to water weight loss from carbohydrate restriction.
2) Better satiety for some people. Some people are more satiated by lots of fat in their diet.
3) It allegedly is a helpful diet for some medical conditions.
4) It's trendy right now and people are (falsely) led to believe that the fat will "melt right off you!" if you eat keto, or that you can eat as much as you want and still lose weight (neither of which are true).
Some people report that they feel better, others experience the "keto flu" as they transition into ketosis and feel not so good.
Keto is a valid way of eating for some people, just as paleo, vegan/vegetarian, etc. is for others. But there's nothing magical about it as far as health or weight loss.3 -
@Anvil_Head @tlflag1620 Thanks! This was very helpful. How low is low on the low carb to see the results you're speaking of? I can live without bread and pasta but I do like my green apples and strawberrries. I know Atkins has that 20 grams induction thing.0
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I didn't do a formal plan. I started out just shooting to reduce carbs to below 100g per day. Some self experimentation (ranging from as low as 20g per day, to as high as 150g per day) revealed that my "sweet spot" seems to be between 50-80g per day. If I go much above 100g I start noticing uncontrolled appetite, much below 40g and I notice sleep disturbance (hard time falling asleep and staying asleep), as well as too little flexibility for my lifestyle (I have a husband and four children who do not eat low carb; I like to eat as close to what they are eating as possible, at least for dinner).
The nice thing about my approach was that since I eased into it, I never dealt with the low carb "flu". I never got the huge scale drop in the beginning either, but I wasn't really going for that (I knew it would be mostly water).1 -
CeeBeeSlim wrote: »SOS! I'm confused. I have never really concentrated on macros - I just threw in percentages on MFP. How does ketogenic work in relation to calories? Does it still boil down to CICO for weight loss or is there something special about the low carb? And how low daily? I'm not really into bread or pasta so I'm thinking this could work for me?
It always boils down to CICO for weight loss, no matter what. Keto can't circumvent the laws of energy balance.
To gain fat you must have a calorie surplus since the energy has to come from somewhere but there are probably other things needed to turn that surplus into fat like high insulin. If the surplus isn't turned into fat, it can be excreted. There is no circumventing any physicals laws with that.
To lose stored fat, a cal deficit is all that is needed since the energy must come from somewhere but there are also other things that can liberate fat without it being used to provide energy for the body. In this case, the fat loss is also excreted from the body. No physical laws broken there either.0 -
CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@Anvil_Head Thanks! So what figures into the decision to go low carb? Is the weight loss faster, easier, one feels better, other?
health, in my case. I was premature/underweight at birth, so I got the insulin resistance and pre-diabetes gratis. Keto is the only way for me to keep that in check without medication. I've also lost weight and started ultra endurance cycling.
And yes, CICO absolutely rules, and for me, on keto, that's now far easier to regulate, compared to how things were when I ate to a "standard" food pattern.1 -
llcornerstone wrote: »Keto made easy with organic bone broth.
Add to sautéed veggies or just drink before meal.
Bullet Coffee a must with MCT oil and grass feed butter.
I made bullet proof drops, but I don't find the need for grass fed butter, butter period works just fine. I also don't use these or fat bombs everyday. I think I've used the bone broth a couple of times, not enough flavor for my liking.0 -
CeeBeeSlim wrote: »SOS! I'm confused. I have never really concentrated on macros - I just threw in percentages on MFP. How does ketogenic work in relation to calories? Does it still boil down to CICO for weight loss or is there something special about the low carb? And how low daily? I'm not really into bread or pasta so I'm thinking this could work for me?
Ketogenic diets simply use mostly fat for fuel instead of glucose. Once you've been in ketosis for a mont or so you become fat adapted, meaning that your muscles use fat as their prefered fuel source so exercise results in very high levels of fat being burned.
It still comes down to CI<CO but for those of us for whom keto works, keeping CI lower becomes easier (due to reduced appetite, cravings and/or satiety of fats) and CO can increase from a very slight thermogenic effect and increased energy (which takes a few days or weeks to show up). In trials I've seen, a LCHF diet seems to result in about 6 more lbs lost in a year. It isn't a lot more.
For some of us, the fat does seem to melt off because weight loss is slightly faster, and because we can actually eat until full. It's a novel feeling after experiencing near constant hunger when just trying to cut calories.
And yes, some weight lost comes from water but it usually isn't more than a couple of pounds. I think retaining less water can't hurt.
The special bit comes from improved health people who stick with keto do so because it improves their health, especially those with insulin resistance (PCOS, T2D, alzheimer's, NAFLD, CAD) and it can help with epilepsy and some forms of cancer therapy. We stick with it because we feel so much better.
Keto is below 30g of total carbs per day for most people. Those with IR, and others who are happier without carbs, often eat<20g per day, and very active healthy people may eat over 100g of carbs per day and stay in ketosis.
Read up on the diet. Attia has a good blog. Keto Clarity is an easy read by Jimmy Moore. The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living is a Great book.
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@nvmomketo Thanks to you and everyone. Last couple of questions. So I'll figure out how many carbs to get me into ketosis. Is that where I need to buy some sticks and test by either urine or breath?
And what scared me a while back was some study on meats, bacon, etc. Anyone nervous about that? I can easily live on bacon, hot sausage, sopresata, cheese, burgers, hot dogs - all without bread - just nervous if all this meat and dairy will do damage? I guess I could pick more "safe" meats - fish, turkey, chicken, no deli meats. Is that what you all do? I'll be honest tho - I'm not eating turkey bacon!!0 -
CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@Anvil_Head Thanks! So what figures into the decision to go low carb? Is the weight loss faster, easier, one feels better, other?
It's trendy...1 -
CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@nvmomketo Thanks to you and everyone. Last couple of questions. So I'll figure out how many carbs to get me into ketosis. Is that where I need to buy some sticks and test by either urine or breath?
And what scared me a while back was some study on meats, bacon, etc. Anyone nervous about that? I can easily live on bacon, hot sausage, sopresata, cheese, burgers, hot dogs - all without bread - just nervous if all this meat and dairy will do damage? I guess I could pick more "safe" meats - fish, turkey, chicken, no deli meats. Is that what you all do? I'll be honest tho - I'm not eating turkey bacon!!
You can use ketostix (urine sticks) if you wish. If you spill any ketones into your urine you can be sure that you are in ketosis. It can be falsely negative though. If you eat less that 30g of carbs per day, 20g or less if you have IR issues, you can be sure that you are in ketosis within 2-3 days. If you fast or go low calorie for a day, you will probably be in ketosis within a day. Exercise will also speed it up and allow you to eat more carbs while in ketosis, if you wish.
I think I know the report you mean. It was on processes meats and an increased risk of colorectal cancer. I believe it said that it raises the risk by 20%. The risk was 5% to begin with so a 20% increase of 5% brings the risk to 6%. It isn't a huge amount.
Plus ketosis does not have to be high in meat. Most ketogenic diets are moderate in protein. My daily protein intake is usually 60-90g per day. My protein macro is set at 20%. It's easy to keep protein moderate as long as you do NOT choose lean meats. Turkey bacon is pretty lean.... it won't fit your macros. Go with the real thing.
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cwolfman13 wrote: »CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@Anvil_Head Thanks! So what figures into the decision to go low carb? Is the weight loss faster, easier, one feels better, other?
It's trendy...
This might be true for some, but those of us who are successful and choose to stick with it tend to do it for the healthy benefits.3 -
Hmmm. I want to make sure I'm counting correctly! My Quest Bar label says: (in grams for one bar)
net carbs: 4
Total carb: 20
Dietary fiber: 14
Sugars: < 1
Erythritol: 2
How many REAL carbs are in this bar?
And going forward do I just look at the "total carb" count, not "net carbs" on the nutrition labels?
Thanks!0 -
It depends on what you want to count. For me, I go with total carbs so that would be 20g. That would include all sugar and fibre. I don't trust fibre to cancel out so many carbs, so as someone with prediabetes, it is best that I look at all carbs.
Others go with net carbs (total minus fibre) which would be 4,5, or 6 g depending on how you count with sugar alcohols. Some include all sugar alcohols (ends in "itol") because it affects their blood glucose. Some count half of the grams and some skip it entirely.0 -
@nvmomketo Wow! To definitely make sure you're in ketosis, it sounds like counting ALL carbs is safest? Ugh.
Just one of those quest bars (at 20 grams) then could be my carbs for the day - if I want to max at 20? Gulp!
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I am having trouble getting my fat in everyday doing keto. Im ok with hitting carbs and protein but not the fats/ I am usually way under on it. I am new to this diet as I have just started this week. Any tips?
Yes, have you tried bullet proof coffee? Thats a great way to get your fat in, I was having that problem at first, but if you are doing well with less fat, thats fine. The fat is to keep us feeling full. Taking a tblspoon of coconut oil is great, mtc oil, and even just extra butter
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Speaking only for myself, I've been on it for four weeks and I feel like a million bucks.1
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CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@nvmomketo Wow! To definitely make sure you're in ketosis, it sounds like counting ALL carbs is safest? Ugh.
Just one of those quest bars (at 20 grams) then could be my carbs for the day - if I want to max at 20? Gulp!
Generally if you are going with total carbs (including fiber), you give yourself a higher upper limit. If you are going with net carbs, you get a lower upper limit. Your max wouldn't be 20g, unless you are counting net carbs. So your quest bar would be 4-6 g (depending on whether you count sugar alcohols or not). If you choose to just count total carbs, that would change your max, from 20 g to, say 50-60g per day.
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@tlflag1620 Thanks for the explanation. That makes me feel better.
I'm stuck on this last issue. Do all low-carbers aim to get in and stay in ketosis? Or is ketosis great, but not necessary to lose fat and be healthier.
If it is necessary, is this "black and white" I.e. Count total carbs only. And no more than 20-30 max daily.
Im just a bit confused about what seems to be the wiggle room here. And for me that's dangerous!0 -
CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@tlflag1620 Thanks for the explanation. That makes me feel better.
I'm stuck on this last issue. Do all low-carbers aim to get in and stay in ketosis? Or is ketosis great, but not necessary to lose fat and be healthier.
If it is necessary, is this "black and white" I.e. Count total carbs only. And no more than 20-30 max daily.
Im just a bit confused about what seems to be the wiggle room here. And for me that's dangerous!
I've done both Low carb and keto. I found i felt just as good keeping my carbs at 100g or under than i did when i kept them at keto levels. I have no health conditions, which makes a big difference in where your numbers should be.2 -
CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@tlflag1620 Thanks for the explanation. That makes me feel better.
I'm stuck on this last issue. Do all low-carbers aim to get in and stay in ketosis? Or is ketosis great, but not necessary to lose fat and be healthier.
If it is necessary, is this "black and white" I.e. Count total carbs only. And no more than 20-30 max daily.
Im just a bit confused about what seems to be the wiggle room here. And for me that's dangerous!
Do you have a medical reason for needing to be in ketosis and doing all this hand wringing? Plenty of people do just fine eating lower carb, but not the extremes of ketosis. Keto is about as extreme in regards to restriction as you can possibly get. I've done lower carb but never seen any point in something this extreme without some kind of medical condition to actually warrant it.1 -
I also downloaded this (only works on a pc), which adds an extra column for net carbs, just make sure you also have the fibre column selected.
http://www.travelinglowcarb.com/4448/myfitnesspal-hack/0 -
I don't shoot for ketosis, although I imagine I spend some time there, especially on lower carb days (I eat between 50-80g per day, and I calculate based on total carbs, so once I subtract fiber, I'm more likely in the range of 30-60 net carbs, which is keto range, at least when I'm on the low side). I don't worry about getting in/staying in keto tho. For me the improved satiety happens anywhere below 100 g per day. Much below 40 g (remember, I watch total carbs, so 40g total is very, very little "net") and I notice sleep issues, so I do try to stay above that.
Do some experimentation. Try staying below 100g a day for a couple weeks and see how you do. After that, you may decrease, or increase, to see what impact, of any, it has on how you feel. I think keto can be great for certain medical conditions, for those who have a lot of weight to lose (and would be motivated by a big water whoosh), and for those who really want to try an elimination diet, perhaps to see which foods are causing issues (GI or autoimmune). Beyond that, I don't see keto as necessary, or even particularly beneficial, at least not for your run of the mill dieter looking to shed a few lbs.1 -
CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@nvmomketo Wow! To definitely make sure you're in ketosis, it sounds like counting ALL carbs is safest? Ugh.
Just one of those quest bars (at 20 grams) then could be my carbs for the day - if I want to max at 20? Gulp!
I am also insulin resistant so that is why I went with 20g while losing, 30g while maintaining. I'm going back to 20g though since I feel better there.
And as I said, if you are active and eat your carbs around exercise you can eat more carbs.
Most keto'ers use very few prepackaged/processed foods beyond dairy (cheese, 10% plain yogurt, 14% sour cream, heavy cream), some meats (bacon!) and eggs I suppose. When you skip processed foods, you are usually skipping carbs. Instead of a Quest bar, keto'ers might pack meats and cheese, nuts and seeds, or even just a coffee with whipping cream or coconut oil.CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@tlflag1620 Thanks for the explanation. That makes me feel better.
I'm stuck on this last issue. Do all low-carbers aim to get in and stay in ketosis? Or is ketosis great, but not necessary to lose fat and be healthier.
If it is necessary, is this "black and white" I.e. Count total carbs only. And no more than 20-30 max daily.
Im just a bit confused about what seems to be the wiggle room here. And for me that's dangerous!
Most low carbers are not keto'ers. Low carb is under 100-150g of carbs per day. That can be as high as 30% of your diet. Even among keto'ers, not all stay in ketosis. I've been in and out of ketosis over the past week or two with baking and this cold I have. You don't NEED to be in ketosis unless it is for a specific medical reason (cancer or epilepsy therapy). I do ketosis because it keeps my blood glucose low and because I feel so much better there.
You don't need to be in ketosis for weight loss.1 -
Thanks, All. @cwolfman13 - no, no medical condition at all. I think I misunderstood. I thought for low carbers - ketosis was the spot to aim for - where you are burning the most fat. Sounds like you can burn fat and still not go crazy being so low on carbs.0
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CeeBeeSlim wrote: »Thanks, All. no, no medical condition at all. I think I misunderstood. I thought for low carbers - ketosis was the spot to aim for - where you are burning the most fat. Sounds like you can burn fat and still not go crazy being so low on carbs.
It appears that fat adapted endurance athletes burn the most fat, but they eat a lot of fat too. It isn't all from body fat. Dietary fat plays a big role in their fat oxidation.0
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