Deadlift dilemmas.
RachaelRenk
Posts: 116 Member
I've been experimenting with the Strong Curves program and reading the book for the past couple weeks. I officially started the program at the beginning of this week. That is, instead of experimenting I'm now following the workouts much more closely and tracking my reps, weight, etc.
I like lifting weights - it's fun and I want to get better and stronger and lift heavier loads! But I am really bamboozled by deadlifts. Last week I had a stranger come up and tell me I was doing it wrong and demonstrate, at length, how to actually do the move. The advice seemed legit and I can see that form was not great, but it didn't exactly make me feel better about it.
Anyways, after that I read some articles about deadlifts, looked at pictures, and I've been watching deadlift videos. I'm pretty sure I've improved my form, but 1) it feels so awkward - nothing about this move ever feels right to me, and 2) when I'm using a barbell in the Smith machine, my lower back starts to hurt. I worry that this is a really bad sign.
Before I get *kitten* for using the Smith machine...my gym isn't terribly well equipped when it comes to barbells. I go to a Planet Fitness with no power rack/squat rack or the like. The only barbells in the gym are ones where you can't add or remove weights from the ends. The weights are really small and if they're sitting on the ground they're very close to the ground, I can't really bend far enough to pick them up. I thought I'd give the Smith machine a try after I saw a handful of other people doing deadlifts with them, but if the machine is the problem then I'll certainly stop.
Does MFP have any suggestions for me?
I'm also curious what moves others really struggled with when they first started weight training. What did you do to improve or gain confidence?
I like lifting weights - it's fun and I want to get better and stronger and lift heavier loads! But I am really bamboozled by deadlifts. Last week I had a stranger come up and tell me I was doing it wrong and demonstrate, at length, how to actually do the move. The advice seemed legit and I can see that form was not great, but it didn't exactly make me feel better about it.
Anyways, after that I read some articles about deadlifts, looked at pictures, and I've been watching deadlift videos. I'm pretty sure I've improved my form, but 1) it feels so awkward - nothing about this move ever feels right to me, and 2) when I'm using a barbell in the Smith machine, my lower back starts to hurt. I worry that this is a really bad sign.
Before I get *kitten* for using the Smith machine...my gym isn't terribly well equipped when it comes to barbells. I go to a Planet Fitness with no power rack/squat rack or the like. The only barbells in the gym are ones where you can't add or remove weights from the ends. The weights are really small and if they're sitting on the ground they're very close to the ground, I can't really bend far enough to pick them up. I thought I'd give the Smith machine a try after I saw a handful of other people doing deadlifts with them, but if the machine is the problem then I'll certainly stop.
Does MFP have any suggestions for me?
I'm also curious what moves others really struggled with when they first started weight training. What did you do to improve or gain confidence?
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Replies
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I would use one of the fixed weight barbells, either raised up on stacked plates or on lower set pins on a rack. You could also look in the back of the book for alternate exercises. A kettlebell or heavy dumbbell RDL could be done in place of the deadlifts and would be much better than the smith machine.5
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I've done Strong Curves... In the beginner program, aren't you doing Romanian deadlifts? You should be starting with the weight from a standing position, hinging back, feeling a stretch in your hamstrings, then powering yourself back up with your glutes. Dumbbells and fixed bars are good for this until you're able to handle heavier stuff, at which point Planet Fitness won't be your ideal gym anymore.4
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RachaelRenk wrote: »I'm also curious what moves others really struggled with when they first started weight training. What did you do to improve or gain confidence?
i started in june 2014, and i'm still 'struggling' with squats
i've just resigned myself to the idea that into each life some rain must fall, and squats are my rain.
one of the rec centres i use has those fixed barbells. i don't see why they even exist, personally. but when i am there and that's what there is, i stack plates under whichever bar i'm using to make sure i have the same height as a 'real' bar. learning the feel of a lift is subtle enough when you're not trying to second-guess for extra variables like height, imo.
starting strength has an entire chapter about each of the lifts. it's got tons of both theory and practical advice, and all kinds of diagrams and breakdowns, if that's your thing. stranger intervention can be a really mixed bag, ime. even the same person can give you terrific advice on one lift and be absolutely off-base on a different one.
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Deadlifts in a Smith Machine will seriously eff up your back. It's much better to use the fixed weight barbells until you are ready for a higher weight.2
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I struggled with the deadlift at first too, but now it's my favourite.
I am going to echo the advice above about using the fixed weight barbells and put them on a stack for the right height. I think one of the main issues with deadlifts when I first started and was struggling was that I didn't go into lifting a plate right away (of course not, I was such a newbie) and so the height was awkward. I did use the stacked plates but when you're starting off at like deadlifting 75 pounds...it's awkward and you have so many plates stacked up.
Once you get stronger and can deadlift a plate, I think you'll find the process a lot easier.
Bumper plates are lighter weight but the same circumference as the 45s and they are helpful...wish my gym had them when I started.2 -
Oh honey. Don't use the Smith machine. Ever. It's horrible and forces you into unnatural positions.
If you have access to one, I suggest a Hex Bar. LOVE mine. I find it forces me to have good form and your shoulders hang naturally as opposed to how you hold a straight bar. You can get one for about $100. The coating is peeling off mine a bit, but it works so who cares.
If the height is the primary concern, you can either stack weight plates or use two step things (you know, the ones they use in classes).
Personally...I would reconsider the Planet Fitness. They are not very friendly to weightlifters, generally speaking. God forbid you grunt or drop your weights. The horror.
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I would use one of the fixed weight barbells, either raised up on stacked plates or on lower set pins on a rack. You could also look in the back of the book for alternate exercises. A kettlebell or heavy dumbbell RDL could be done in place of the deadlifts and would be much better than the smith machine.
This is good advice. Lots of alternatives, including good mornings.2 -
I don't know if this is stuff you've already seen in your program, but this site helped me improve my form a lot..
https://stronglifts.com/deadlift/
I also took video to check my form.
It felt really awkward for a while after I realized my form was off and started correcting it. I remember wondering if I was ever gonna be able to do it without thinking so hard about it, but it comes much more naturally now after lots of practice.1 -
chocolate_owl wrote: »I've done Strong Curves... In the beginner program, aren't you doing Romanian deadlifts? You should be starting with the weight from a standing position, hinging back, feeling a stretch in your hamstrings, then powering yourself back up with your glutes. Dumbbells and fixed bars are good for this until you're able to handle heavier stuff, at which point Planet Fitness won't be your ideal gym anymore.
I've done it too and this is right on.1 -
As for deadlifts, people who are less risk-adverse (I get nervous about some things) or comfortable with weights than I was at the beginning may feel differently, but for deadlifts and barbell squats I found it really helpful to have a trainer show me the lifts so I knew I was doing it right and how it was supposed to feel.
(I was confident that I knew how to do bench, and found late that my form was off, so even for that I would have benefited.)
Another option is to video yourself and get people here (or maybe in the Eat, Progress, Train group) to check it out and comment.
For getting started, best advice I can give is pick a program (Strong Curves is good) and stick with it. I bounced around too much when first starting thinking there was some perfect one out there and undermined my results.2 -
http://strengtheory.com/how-to-deadlift/
I would look at this, or look into information from Mark Ripptoe. Pretty much the leading strength coach out there.1 -
https://www.youtube.com/user/athrall7
Pretty much my go to channel for compound movements.2 -
Wow, thanks everybody. Lots of great advice. I solemnly swear to never touch the Smith machine for deadlifts ever again (is it okay for other weight lifting moves, or should I avoid it entirely?)
I am kind of disappointed in PF. I chose it because it's literally at the end of my street, and quite frankly, I needed that kind of convenience when I first started going to the gym in November. I think now I'm having so much fun with strength training that I would drive further for a better gym. Unfortunately, I'm locked into a 1-year contract.![:\](https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
I read something about placing the fixed barbells on something else (I think the thing I read said boxes?), and that sounds way better, but I'm not sure what exactly to stack the barbell on. I haven't seen any "steps" at my gym. Would it be rude to take the plates from the Smith machine to stack up? Those are the only "free" plates that I know of.
I guess I could ask someone at the desk if they have any ideas, but I'm also not sure how they would feel about it. To the same extent, I should probably go and ask if there's someone who can help me with this move in particular, but I don't even know if they have trainers there. Honestly, I just don't know what the etiquette is and I'm kind of paranoid that PF isn't big into weight lifting.
Thanks for the ideas and articles!!1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »chocolate_owl wrote: »I've done Strong Curves... In the beginner program, aren't you doing Romanian deadlifts? You should be starting with the weight from a standing position, hinging back, feeling a stretch in your hamstrings, then powering yourself back up with your glutes. Dumbbells and fixed bars are good for this until you're able to handle heavier stuff, at which point Planet Fitness won't be your ideal gym anymore.
I've done it too and this is right on.
I think you're right, it is Romanian deadlifts. I use a couple of different Google sheets trackers that other people made for the program, and they've been "tweaked" a little bit. Since I don't always have the book with me, I sometimes just do what's in the Google sheet, which I think includes dumb bells for the deadlift. I'm actually not sure what makes a Romanian deadlift Romanian. I read a couple articles about the differences between that and say, an American deadlift, but I honestly don't -see- the difference.
Anyways, before I started Strong Curves I was trying to do 5x5 Strong Lifts (or at very least reading a lot about that program), so I kind of got stuck on the idea of doing deadlifts with a barbell.0 -
RachaelRenk wrote: »I read something about placing the fixed barbells on something else (I think the thing I read said boxes?), and that sounds way better, but I'm not sure what exactly to stack the barbell on. I haven't seen any "steps" at my gym. Would it be rude to take the plates from the Smith machine to stack up? Those are the only "free" plates that I know of.
Either borrow them from the Smith or one of the leg presses. I'm assuming you have leg presses - the local one here has 2, I think. You probably won't have the plates for so long that someone's going to be too bothered by it.
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RachaelRenk wrote: »I read something about placing the fixed barbells on something else (I think the thing I read said boxes?), and that sounds way better, but I'm not sure what exactly to stack the barbell on. I haven't seen any "steps" at my gym. Would it be rude to take the plates from the Smith machine to stack up? Those are the only "free" plates that I know of.
Either borrow them from the Smith or one of the leg presses. I'm assuming you have leg presses - the local one here has 2, I think. You probably won't have the plates for so long that someone's going to be too bothered by it.
Thanks! Yes, there is at least one leg press machine with plates. Great idea.0 -
I think the best advice to give you is to find a good lifting focused gym, a small gym that has dedicated deadlift areas with the plates, bars and hex bars that you need along with squat racks, kettle bells, dumbbells and if you're really lucky a prowler. Then find a good trainer, check their qualifications and talk to their clients and make sure he or she is knowledgeable and experienced in lifting, not cardio, not spin, not body pump, not checking his phone while you struggle, lifting. Purchase at least 5 or six sessions, it might be a sacrifice for the cost, but he/she will be able to show you proper technique and correct your form in real time from different angles on a multitude of different lifts and complimentary lifts and if they are really good they won't have you dead lift at all until your core is strong enough to support it. The deadlift, squat and chest press, the big three, are excellent at improving your body and for the ladies the booty, but they are big movements that have serious injury potential so invest in yourself, hire a teacher and stay injury free. After you have learned what you need to know, it will be up to you if you continue with the trainer, but at least you will have the knowledge to take with you.1
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RachaelRenk wrote: »Would it be rude to take the plates from the Smith machine to stack up?
it's only rude if you take the plates that are on the actual bar of the smith. and then only if someone's using the smith when you take those plates off.
do it. if you ask me, a person is pretty much allowed to do anything in a gym that will result in them having better form, learning more quickly, or becoming better at what they're in there to do in any way. that doesn't include vanity/selfishness stuff like hogging equipment or getting between someone else and the mirror so you can admire your own wonderful self at closer range.
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I perfected my form using dumbbells for my RDL,found videos online0
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big2strongCO wrote: »I think the best advice to give you is to find a good lifting focused gym, a small gym that has dedicated deadlift areas with the plates, bars and hex bars that you need along with squat racks, kettle bells, dumbbells and if you're really lucky a prowler. Then find a good trainer, check their qualifications and talk to their clients and make sure he or she is knowledgeable and experienced in lifting, not cardio, not spin, not body pump, not checking his phone while you struggle, lifting. Purchase at least 5 or six sessions, it might be a sacrifice for the cost, but he/she will be able to show you proper technique and correct your form in real time from different angles on a multitude of different lifts and complimentary lifts and if they are really good they won't have you dead lift at all until your core is strong enough to support it. The deadlift, squat and chest press, the big three, are excellent at improving your body and for the ladies the booty, but they are big movements that have serious injury potential so invest in yourself, hire a teacher and stay injury free. After you have learned what you need to know, it will be up to you if you continue with the trainer, but at least you will have the knowledge to take with you.
Hi, thanks for your response. I've had this thought nagging at the back of my head...that I probably need to break down and purchase some training sessions so that I have a solid foundation for lifting. As I mentioned earlier, I don't really think my gym is the ideal place for this kind of training. I know of at least 3 or 4 smaller gyms in my area that I think focus more on lifting, so I'll do some research on those. That being said, it seems like there's a lot of potential to end up with a less than satisfactory trainer or facility. Does anyone have any suggestions for vetting a trainer, when seeking weight lifting training?0 -
Fixed barbell on blocks/plates > fixed barbell on the floor >> smith machine (coat rack)2
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RachaelRenk wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chocolate_owl wrote: »I've done Strong Curves... In the beginner program, aren't you doing Romanian deadlifts? You should be starting with the weight from a standing position, hinging back, feeling a stretch in your hamstrings, then powering yourself back up with your glutes. Dumbbells and fixed bars are good for this until you're able to handle heavier stuff, at which point Planet Fitness won't be your ideal gym anymore.
I've done it too and this is right on.
I think you're right, it is Romanian deadlifts. I use a couple of different Google sheets trackers that other people made for the program, and they've been "tweaked" a little bit. Since I don't always have the book with me, I sometimes just do what's in the Google sheet, which I think includes dumb bells for the deadlift. I'm actually not sure what makes a Romanian deadlift Romanian. I read a couple articles about the differences between that and say, an American deadlift, but I honestly don't -see- the difference.
Anyways, before I started Strong Curves I was trying to do 5x5 Strong Lifts (or at very least reading a lot about that program), so I kind of got stuck on the idea of doing deadlifts with a barbell.
chocolate owl's post should explain it.
[Edit: I'm not the one to do it, so will not try!]0 -
Hmm, or this is a good discussion with all variations using the barbell:
https://bretcontreras.com/whats-the-difference-between-a-romanian-deadlift-american-deadlift-stiff-legged-deadlift-and-straight-leg-deadlift/1 -
RachaelRenk wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »chocolate_owl wrote: »I've done Strong Curves... In the beginner program, aren't you doing Romanian deadlifts? You should be starting with the weight from a standing position, hinging back, feeling a stretch in your hamstrings, then powering yourself back up with your glutes. Dumbbells and fixed bars are good for this until you're able to handle heavier stuff, at which point Planet Fitness won't be your ideal gym anymore.
I've done it too and this is right on.
I think you're right, it is Romanian deadlifts. I use a couple of different Google sheets trackers that other people made for the program, and they've been "tweaked" a little bit. Since I don't always have the book with me, I sometimes just do what's in the Google sheet, which I think includes dumb bells for the deadlift. I'm actually not sure what makes a Romanian deadlift Romanian. I read a couple articles about the differences between that and say, an American deadlift, but I honestly don't -see- the difference.
Anyways, before I started Strong Curves I was trying to do 5x5 Strong Lifts (or at very least reading a lot about that program), so I kind of got stuck on the idea of doing deadlifts with a barbell.
The difference between a Romanian and American deadlift is pelvic tilt at the end. A Romanian is more or less neutral, and an American involves posterior pelvic tilt on the way up by squeezing your glutes. It kind of annoys me that Bret included these in a beginner program because the difference is so hard to see in pictures and so easy to eff up by using your back instead of your glutes. If you're not comfortable trying that without some professional help, stick to the Romanians throughout the program.
ETA: Whoops, lemur beat me to it. See her link!
(FWIW, I'm no expert on lifting, and I work with a trainer to make sure I don't do stupid crap. If you want more help with these things, I'd suggest checking out the Eat, Train, Progress group and maybe posting some videos of form. SideSteel and the others who hang out there know what they're talking about and can help you a lot.)2 -
RachaelRenk wrote: »Does anyone have any suggestions for vetting a trainer, when seeking weight lifting training?
i'm a starting strength fan. but i ain't travelling to kansas or wherever it is to do one of those ss sessions, so i went to google, typed in 'starting strength' and my city's name, and came up with a long-ago thread on rippetoe's own message boards. someone else had asked that community the exact same question. 'any ss-trained coaches in my area?'
the thread was three or four years old, but someone name-checked the guy who runs the little independent 'garage' gym that has been my friday home and social life ever since. i re-googled; liked everything his website implied about his 'culture' and vibe; got my courage together and phoned.
other lessons learned in the year before all that stuff happened:
- pay attention to whatever else you've got available to learn from in the space where you lift. fly-on-wall observation is a great way to figure out what you yourself find obnoxious, what kind of vibe makes you happy, what you're interested in and not interested in in the realm of lifting. basically, refining your criteria before you even begin is worth it.
- if possible, try to isolate which realm of lifting you want to go for. when i started i didn't even know the stuff i wanted to do were collectively called 'compound' lifts. once i'd picked up that term, i was able to further refine it to 'power' lifting. just meaning that i wanted to squat/deadlift/bench/press, a lot more than i wanted to learn cleans.
- if i'd known this then, i could have saved myself some wasted saturdays by saying 'i'm not looking to compete. aesthetics are well behind strength on my priority list. not looking for lifestyle coaching. i hate 'buddy' lifting. i want to bite people who try to Motivate me. cardio i can do by myself'.
i swear, it's more worthwhile to go without until you find yourself a good place. it took me a year, but i got me a trainer who wandered off to japan to learn martial arts after misspending his youth, did an english-lit degree and married a librarian, is ferocious about total inclusiveness in his space, talks about books and philosophy in between sets, and never met a cuss word he didn't like. my fellow-fridayers right now are a purple-haired israeli circus performer, a 400-pound amateur drag queen, a high-up civil service dude of some kind, and a meterorologist from michigan. and he costs less than the average friday-afternoon beer and burger with a bunch of colleagues that i probably wouldn't like even a quarter as much.
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Jeez, that sounds amazing (your friday-space). 0
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RachaelRenk wrote: »Jeez, that sounds amazing (your friday-space).
i'm about to lose it
stoopid contract i've already signed where they keep moving the bar about locations, an doesn't look like i'll be able to show for too many fridays after this month.
i'm looking into alternatives for the time that this is going to go on. but i still think it's worth holding out for something that i'm going to look forward to going to, most of the time.0 -
Speaking of Starting Strength coaching, I saw that they recently launched online coaching. Not sure the details, but might be worth looking into if there wasn't a coach in your area.0
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RachaelRenk wrote: »
Yes. The smith machine isn't really an option.1
This discussion has been closed.
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