Vicious Cycle

HG210
HG210 Posts: 103 Member
edited November 15 in Health and Weight Loss
What to do to fight this vicious appetite 2 weeks out of the month? I am getting my cycle soon and I know because I want to take a bite of my desk right now. I don't track it at all but I know from the incredible overwhelming sensation of hunger I'm having. I feel out of control when this happens. I only have one normal week a month. One week of hunger followed by another week of hunger, headaches and cramps. Then the most horrible heavy period and it's over. The pain is horrible the hunger is horrific it is all a nightmare. Does anyone have any tips or trips to get through this a little better? Surgery is not an option. Something has to work besides Strawberry Ice Cream. I don't even want to log in this damn coca cola and doritos I'm eating. My husband wants to walk tonight and I want to hang on the couch. SMH :'( Also did I say that it takes away all my motivation to work out.
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Replies

  • RodaRose
    RodaRose Posts: 9,562 Member
    Does walking help?
  • nicola1141
    nicola1141 Posts: 613 Member
    Agree you should talk to your doctor. BC or a Mirena might help if they're options.
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    edited January 2017
    Controversial suggestion maybe, but have you considered getting medical help? If your period in one way or another affects 3 out of 4 weeks a month it might be worth going on the pill for example. That way you can reduce or completely get rid of the pain and definitely reduce the heaviness and duration of the period giving you more time to be you and stick to your routine.

    Other than that exercise usually helps even though you have to force yourself to get started and drinking lots of water and staying away from sodium will help to not feel so bloated.

    I was going to recommend something like this too. I'm so incredibly fortunate that i might get a little more peckish a day or two before mine arrive, and not every month either. But other than that i get zero pms symptoms.

    If this was affecting my quality of life like it is yours, then I'd be going to a doctor and get put on some kind of birth control that would hopefully blunt or eradicate the symptoms.

  • goldthistime
    goldthistime Posts: 3,213 Member
    Sorry to hear it's that rough. When I had PMS hunger/cravings, I tried to not give in to the cravings for sweets, (because I couldn't moderate), but ate as much nutrient dense food as I wanted so that I didn't go mad with hunger. I still lost. I've heard it said that your metabolism increases when you're PMSing. You're problems seem a lot more involved, apologies if my response sounds like "it's easy".
  • chocolate_owl
    chocolate_owl Posts: 1,695 Member
    Controversial suggestion maybe, but have you considered getting medical help? If your period in one way or another affects 3 out of 4 weeks a month it might be worth going on the pill for example. That way you can reduce or completely get rid of the pain and definitely reduce the heaviness and duration of the period giving you more time to be you and stick to your routine.

    Other than that exercise usually helps even though you have to force yourself to get started and drinking lots of water and staying away from sodium will help to not feel so bloated.

    I'll third this. I had horrendous, heavy, godawful periods before birth control. Now I don't. If you're already on one kind, try another.
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    Also wanted to suggest/ask about BC, the Pill took care of most of my extreme PMS, and shortened and lessened my TOM. Some brands can increase your appetite or have their own side effects, but it sounds like it can't be worse than you are experiencing. I also had a doctor before I decided on BC that suggested a calcium/magnesium supplement, though I admit I don't remember why/how that would help.

    I also agree with the previous posters that exercise and hydration help too. The thing with exercise is you have to remember how you feel when you are done, as opposed to how you feel when you start. I find when I feel crampy and grumpy, I never feel like moving, but a brisk walk leaves me feeling much better.

    ALWAYS log, even if it looks awful, sometimes we don't realize how much of what we think we have no control over is actually just habit. Sometimes seeing it in writing helps motivate you to at least make better choices in comfort eating LOL.

    I don't mean this as an insult, but just wanted to add, do a gut check and make sure it really is that bad, and not just something you have gotten used to using as a crutch. I'm not saying you are, I completely relate to what you are going through, but I've also known some people who get great comfort from convincing themselves they are in too much pain/too many cravings/etc to lose weight.

    In all seriousness, if you are legit struggling through three weeks every month, and all your current doctor can suggest is surgery, get a second opinion. A lot of women have to deal with a few days a month of discomfort/pain and cravings, but what you are describing is not normal. Good luck :drinker:

    I often wonder how much of some women's pms symptoms is mental. .. Not saying this is you OP, not at all!

    They know tom is approaching and the panic sets in, they resign themselves to the fact that they are going to eat the house down, not exercise etc etc Do this for enough years and it becomes an auto pilot thing. The mind is powerful and mysterious, what will happen is what you expect to happen.

  • SarahStarr86
    SarahStarr86 Posts: 121 Member
    My GYN put me on Yaz because it helped with PMDD which is basically a more severe form of PMS and it took away all of my PMS symptoms. It did such a good job that when I finally got off of it, I didn't even recognize or know how to cope with the real deal PMS when it hit. I track my cycle with an app called Clue so I always know when I'm getting close to my PMS time or if I am feeling a little extra hungry I know why. I now know how to handle it but maybe you can try out Yaz, I loved it. And like some others have said, you may just have to buckle down and get through it. Maybe you can work out to help with extra calories you're eating. I know that when I exercise, it tends to be an appetite suppressant for me. And coffee, coffee in the mid afternoon always keeps me from rummaging in the pantry during that time of the month.
  • HG210
    HG210 Posts: 103 Member
    Sounds good ladies. Thank you for the suggestions. First let me say I am 45...of course I have seen the doctor about this and have had many forms of birth control. Never a good reaction to any of them. So I just deal with it. I promise, the pain, the cramps the appetite is not in my head. It is all very real. I can go through almost a whole bag of napkins in one cycle. I will say this. If I work out it is not as heavy but I do still get every thing else. I think the suggestion about drinking a lot of water is one that I will try. Honestly I don't drink a lot of water. I am not using this as an excuse or a crutch of any sort. You all are right I have to keep pushing through. So that is what I intend on doing. I just can't with another birth control. Nothing good ever comes from it for me.
  • msc4124
    msc4124 Posts: 4 Member
    For the pain ibuprofen and chamomile tea and maybe son cinnamon. The tea will help with the cramps and ibuprofen too, take it maybe 30 mins. Before any exercise.
    Hunger, green bell peppers, or anything that has water. Tons of water. I know is hard n I experience the same thing too foe 2 wks. Out of the month.
  • Francl27
    Francl27 Posts: 26,371 Member
    Oh you're so not alone. You described me completely. It's awful and unfortunately a lot of people really don't get it... And the last few months my cycles have one lasted 3 weeks, so it's pretty much non stop hell.

    First, medicate. I pretty much have to alternate Advil and Tylenol (or store brands, but it has to be soft gels or it takes too long to work) every 2-3 hours for days. I start as soon as I get up. Once the pain is gone, it's much easier to get moving.

    Exercise more. Seriously. My last bad PMS day was bad, but I try to stay active and end up burning off a big chunk of the surplus (I laugh at the 'eat at maintenance' posts. Maintenance doesn't even get close to cutting it for me). I've increased my activity and walk whenever I have 30 minutes to kill (instead of just sitting down and watching TV or browsing the web or something - exceptions being in the morning while I drink my coffee and at night when the kids are in bed).

    Find what foods REALLY satisfy you. That horrible hunger feeling... what can you eat in reasonable quantities to make it go away? For me, I've found that just a plain English muffin will work much better than ice cream or cookies (I might crave them but they really don't satisfy me and I can't stop eating them if I start at that time). The key is to eat as little as possible of the thing that will satisfy you, and avoid the stuff that won't, no matter how tempting.

    The whole mental thing... I know it's not it for me because sometimes I skip a period and it doesn't happen to me at all. I always kinda feel insulted when people suggest it though! And yeah, some cycles it doesn't happen more than maybe a day and I'm so grateful.

    And my best advice if you don't want to gain weight from that - eat less on the easier days. It sucks, but that's pretty much how I've managed not to gain back the weight in 2.5 years (I've gained back a couple pounds when Holidays and special events fell on usually 'normal' days and I wasn't able to keep a deficit that 'easy' week, but that's pretty much it and my clothes still fit the same).
  • ahoy_m8
    ahoy_m8 Posts: 3,053 Member
    Another question for your doc: what hormone(s) specifically cause the intolerable symptoms and are there other ways to moderate them (without BC)?

    For example, I've read up a bit on prostaglandin because I've experienced a problem. It's locally produced (vs. by the pituitary or another gland carried by bloodstream) and it makes smooth muscles contract and swell. I.e. cramps. In excess it can cause an explosive situation for the bowels (smooth muscle) plus nausea, fainting and a whopper headache. Taking a fast acting NSAID (ibuprofen) right at onset can blunt the local production of prostaglandin and save you from a whole bunch of headache (figuratively and literally). Knowing exactly when you expect shark week to start (vs. waiting for symptoms to develop) helps this approach. That's the limit of my knowledge and experience.

    Good luck, OP. I hope there's a more manageable way.
  • kimny72
    kimny72 Posts: 16,011 Member
    edited February 2017
    HG210 wrote: »
    Sounds good ladies. Thank you for the suggestions. First let me say I am 45...of course I have seen the doctor about this and have had many forms of birth control. Never a good reaction to any of them. So I just deal with it. I promise, the pain, the cramps the appetite is not in my head. It is all very real. I can go through almost a whole bag of napkins in one cycle. I will say this. If I work out it is not as heavy but I do still get every thing else. I think the suggestion about drinking a lot of water is one that I will try. Honestly I don't drink a lot of water. I am not using this as an excuse or a crutch of any sort. You all are right I have to keep pushing through. So that is what I intend on doing. I just can't with another birth control. Nothing good ever comes from it for me.

    Sorry :(. You would be amazed how many people post on here that they are constipated for 3 weeks and can't get out of bed and there is yellow ooze leaking out of their eyes and they can't remember what number comes after 4 and ask for advice on what to eat. And people post Go To The Doctor! And they go, hmmm that might be a good idea I'll think about going to the doctor LOL.

    I don't normally suggest "alternative" stuff, but meditation is often touted for chronic pain management. There are free apps you can download, maybe it would be worth trying as well.

    Do you know around when your older female relatives started menopause? Maybe nature will give you some relief sooner rather than later.

    Not sure if this applies, but I used to suffer from migraines. Once the pain hit, there was nothing that would do any good. But if I started taking ibuprofen on a schedule at the first sign the migraine was coming, the pain would never develop beyond some slight pressure. Perhaps try starting Midol etc before the symptoms really start? I know regular use of NSAIDS is troublesome, but knowing your age, there is a limited amount of time you would need to rely on them. (I'm 44 and I can't wait to have to stop dealing with this crap myself!)

    Best of luck, and sorry you are going through this
  • cake91
    cake91 Posts: 46 Member
    I'm no doctor/ dietician but i heard once that bananna is meant to help with period cramps. Worth a try if you can have bananna xxx
  • Heartisalonelyhunter
    Heartisalonelyhunter Posts: 786 Member
    edited February 2017
    kimny72 wrote: »
    Also wanted to suggest/ask about BC, the Pill took care of most of my extreme PMS, and shortened and lessened my TOM. Some brands can increase your appetite or have their own side effects, but it sounds like it can't be worse than you are experiencing. I also had a doctor before I decided on BC that suggested a calcium/magnesium supplement, though I admit I don't remember why/how that would help.

    I also agree with the previous posters that exercise and hydration help too. The thing with exercise is you have to remember how you feel when you are done, as opposed to how you feel when you start. I find when I feel crampy and grumpy, I never feel like moving, but a brisk walk leaves me feeling much better.

    ALWAYS log, even if it looks awful, sometimes we don't realize how much of what we think we have no control over is actually just habit. Sometimes seeing it in writing helps motivate you to at least make better choices in comfort eating LOL.

    I don't mean this as an insult, but just wanted to add, do a gut check and make sure it really is that bad, and not just something you have gotten used to using as a crutch. I'm not saying you are, I completely relate to what you are going through, but I've also known some people who get great comfort from convincing themselves they are in too much pain/too many cravings/etc to lose weight.

    In all seriousness, if you are legit struggling through three weeks every month, and all your current doctor can suggest is surgery, get a second opinion. A lot of women have to deal with a few days a month of discomfort/pain and cravings, but what you are describing is not normal. Good luck :drinker:

    I often wonder how much of some women's pms symptoms is mental. .. Not saying this is you OP, not at all!

    They know tom is approaching and the panic sets in, they resign themselves to the fact that they are going to eat the house down, not exercise etc etc Do this for enough years and it becomes an auto pilot thing. The mind is powerful and mysterious, what will happen is what you expect to happen.

    I did read something about this. There was some study that showed that women who reported the worst symptoms (without any medical explanation) tended to be the least busy. Literally, they had more time on their hands to think about it.
    Also pain is subjective. People have varying tolerances for it. Doctors say that period pains lessen after a woman has given birth. This is partly to do with the stretching of the uterus but also to do with perspective. The pain of labor far exceeds menstrual cramps and somehow that is remembered.
    OP forgot to say that often anti-depressants will help with this. If you can't take contraceptives you may want to look into it.
  • cloverdaisy
    cloverdaisy Posts: 64 Member
    9 out of the 10 times that I went off the track were right before my period started. I'm there with ya sistar! I started meal prep this past Sun & my period is coming in 5 days. I've been eating high protein diet for the past couple days and haven't had cravings (knock wood). If I still feel the same next month, I'd say high protein diet definitely helps because carbs, let's be honest, are addicting! So maybe try a higher protein (over 40%) diet to see how you feel.
  • jdhcm2006
    jdhcm2006 Posts: 2,254 Member
    Controversial suggestion maybe, but have you considered getting medical help? If your period in one way or another affects 3 out of 4 weeks a month it might be worth going on the pill for example. That way you can reduce or completely get rid of the pain and definitely reduce the heaviness and duration of the period giving you more time to be you and stick to your routine.

    Other than that exercise usually helps even though you have to force yourself to get started and drinking lots of water and staying away from sodium will help to not feel so bloated.

    This was going to be my suggestion as well.
  • Jules_farmgirl
    Jules_farmgirl Posts: 225 Member
    This may be harsh, but we all started the monthly cycle between age 12-14 (obviously exceptions to that), you need to learn how to control those PMS symptoms in one way or another. Its life. It happens. If losing and maintaining weight is what you want? Then learn the deal with the cravings. If not, go out and indulge if it makes you happy. I have many friends who complain monthly about their symptoms, and I tell them the same thing. You need to learn to deal with it and not use it as an excuse.
  • Jules_farmgirl
    Jules_farmgirl Posts: 225 Member
    Francl27 wrote: »
    Clearly OP isn't using it as 'an excuse' as she wants to lose weight and find ways to deal with it and that's why she posted about it. Using it as an excuse would be eating too much and not caring a bit 'because it's PMS'... which clearly isn't the case here (and if it was just an excuse we probably wouldn't feel so horrible about it either).

    I'm not speaking for everyone, but PMS never bothered me before I lost the weight. Heck I can't even remember how it was, frankly. I guess I just ate more because I was hungrier and that was the end of it. I suppose that's part of why PMS is so much harder now - I actually care (and I'm older, possibly peri-menopausal, and I have way less fat reserves on me, so maybe it's actually worse).

    I'll just finish with yet another reminder that we all experience PMS differently (heck... I experience it differently every single month) and it's very easy to say 'don't use it as an excuse and just deal with it' when you've possibly never experienced it as badly as OP (or your friends) have. I've gone from so hungry that I had to eat 4000 calories 3 days in a row to being so depressed that I got suicidal again. Unless you've gone through such extremes, you really have no business judging others and claiming it's 'just an excuse'.

    I have gone through extremes my whole life, including being in a hospital on morphine from my ovarian cysts, which cause severe pain during BOTH ovulation AND TOM.

    Doesn't mean that I make sure everyone around me knows its happening and I definitely don't let it effect my day to day.
  • Francl27
    Francl27 Posts: 26,371 Member
    savithny wrote: »
    Ibuprofen as soon as the pain hits, or even before, if you're regular enough to feel the first twinges.

    I was a teenager before ibuprofen was OTC and had to suffer horrendous cramps. When it became available without a prescription and I read an article about how NSAIDS are prostaglandin blockers, I bought some, and I took FIVE, and I was stunned with how much less pain there was. It was literally a miracle drug.

    When I was young, doctors were still saying that if you had cramps it was because you were "rejecting your femininity." Now we know a lot more about what causes many PMS symptoms and we can manage them much, much better. If my cramps were all in my head, why did a handful of ibuprofen make them pretty much stop?

    My cramps were so bad that I ended up having a 9-pound baby without any pain meds, because I told myself I'd wait until labor was as bad as my worst cramps - and it never got that bad. All the breathing and relaxation tecnquies I used to get through school and work were more than enough to have a baby with. The pain is real.

    The appetite? That's also hormonal but you're not going to find any real medication options. I'd wonder if you treated the pain and prostaglandin effects if you might just *feel* better about the whole process and the eating thing would be easier to cope with?

    It doesn't affect my eating, personally, lol. But yeah... miracle for cramps. I saw all those warnings about how Ibuprofen is dangerous not too long ago and I frankly thought 'I don't care. I can't imagine ever stopping them'.

    For what it's worth, I used to have to take 3 for it to work... when I lost the weight, I found that 2 worked fine. The worst really is when it doesn't work and I have to take Tylenol too... but alternating both seems to work (again, every 2-3 hours, if any wears off I'm in trouble).

    I've had cramps like that lasting for 10 days too some months... Horrible. I used to throw up from them when I was a teen. I didn't actually discover Ibuprofen until I moved to the US at 23.. I used to take something else in France that more or less worked (Doliprane was the name).
  • nytetears
    nytetears Posts: 22 Member
    edited February 2017
    Prevention:
    I would suggest not having the food in the house that is causing the cravings. Have healthy snacks (fruits, veggies, nuts) available and allow yourself to eat them as you need to. Don't feel guilty about it. Know it's a healthy snack and it is helping you get through a rough time. The problem with guilt is once it hits you get into the 'Well I already failed I might as well go full force' attitude.

    Possible Solutions:
    Also as mentioned previously in the comments you really should speak to a doctor about your periods there are serious medical reasons this may be happening. insists on testing don't let your doctor blow you off!!!

    One more thing, have your Vitamin D level checked. Studies have found that Vit D helps relieve menstrual cramps http://www.medpagetoday.com/obgyn/generalobgyn/31388 (not sure if I am allowed to post URLs if not and it is removed search Vitamin D and Menstrual Pain.

    For the pain hold heating pads on the area. Get one of the wheat ones you can toss in the microwave to heat I can suggest a wonderful one I use for my back pain if you like just ask, and take whichever pain pills you can get relief from

    Now I know the above-mentioned ideas/suggestions deal with the pain part of your problem, not the binge eating part of it but I think if you can control one part the other will follow.

    I will keep you in my thoughts I know it's not fun. Hope you can find some relief soon.
  • leejoyce31
    leejoyce31 Posts: 794 Member
    edited February 2017
    HG210 wrote: »
    What to do to fight this vicious appetite 2 weeks out of the month? I am getting my cycle soon and I know because I want to take a bite of my desk right now. I don't track it at all but I know from the incredible overwhelming sensation of hunger I'm having. I feel out of control when this happens. I only have one normal week a month. One week of hunger followed by another week of hunger, headaches and cramps. Then the most horrible heavy period and it's over. The pain is horrible the hunger is horrific it is all a nightmare. Does anyone have any tips or trips to get through this a little better? Surgery is not an option. Something has to work besides Strawberry Ice Cream. I don't even want to log in this damn coca cola and doritos I'm eating. My husband wants to walk tonight and I want to hang on the couch. SMH :'( Also did I say that it takes away all my motivation to work out.

    I'm not sure how much BC helps. I still get those uncontrollable cravings. Mine is not hunger. It's just an overwhelming desire to eat that is accompanied by anxiety until the craving is satisfied.

    I was actually looking forward to them this month so that I could have some yummy treats. I normally only eat my treats during this time because I am not good at moderating and they lead me to overeat. So, one day out of every 4 weeks or more, I normally will have an all out sweet treat fest!. I was expecting the mild cravings to hit over the weekend followed by my uncontrollable urge to eat the sweets by Monday or Tuesday morning. Well instead on Monday night and Tuesday, I had the most horrible cramps as well as insomnia since Saturday night. I normally don't get either of these. My only symptom is normally this uncontrollable urge to eat and maybe a little less patience with others.

    I guess no treats this time for me. As far as advice is concerned, I have none because I give in to my urges and overeat. Thankfully, it's only one day and I eat at a deficit the rest of the time to make up for my "HUGE" indulgence. So, it has not impacted my weight.

    I wish you the best because I know that many women don't experience the out of control urges that other women get, and it's difficult to understand that exercising, eating at maintenance and all the other wonderful tips just don't work when the changes in progesterone, estrogen, cortisol, and serotonin whipsaw you at once.

    Good luck!
  • leejoyce31
    leejoyce31 Posts: 794 Member
    edited February 2017
    kimny72 wrote: »
    Also wanted to suggest/ask about BC, the Pill took care of most of my extreme PMS, and shortened and lessened my TOM. Some brands can increase your appetite or have their own side effects, but it sounds like it can't be worse than you are experiencing. I also had a doctor before I decided on BC that suggested a calcium/magnesium supplement, though I admit I don't remember why/how that would help.

    I also agree with the previous posters that exercise and hydration help too. The thing with exercise is you have to remember how you feel when you are done, as opposed to how you feel when you start. I find when I feel crampy and grumpy, I never feel like moving, but a brisk walk leaves me feeling much better.

    ALWAYS log, even if it looks awful, sometimes we don't realize how much of what we think we have no control over is actually just habit. Sometimes seeing it in writing helps motivate you to at least make better choices in comfort eating LOL.

    I don't mean this as an insult, but just wanted to add, do a gut check and make sure it really is that bad, and not just something you have gotten used to using as a crutch. I'm not saying you are, I completely relate to what you are going through, but I've also known some people who get great comfort from convincing themselves they are in too much pain/too many cravings/etc to lose weight.

    In all seriousness, if you are legit struggling through three weeks every month, and all your current doctor can suggest is surgery, get a second opinion. A lot of women have to deal with a few days a month of discomfort/pain and cravings, but what you are describing is not normal. Good luck :drinker:

    I often wonder how much of some women's pms symptoms is mental. .. Not saying this is you OP, not at all!

    They know tom is approaching and the panic sets in, they resign themselves to the fact that they are going to eat the house down, not exercise etc etc Do this for enough years and it becomes an auto pilot thing. The mind is powerful and mysterious, what will happen is what you expect to happen.

    This month proves that's not the case for me. I didn't get the cravings and I was actually expecting and looking forward to the treats. I got other horrible symptoms that I don't normally get like cramping, nausea and insomnia. So, since I didn't get the cravings, I didn't use it as an opportunity to eat. Not sure about other women. But I also know that horrible PMS symptoms hit some, but not all women, like a ton of bricks. It can be so bad that it impacts their quality of life, and one of those symptoms among many others is uncontrollable food cravings.
  • leejoyce31
    leejoyce31 Posts: 794 Member
    Francl27 wrote: »
    Oh you're so not alone. You described me completely. It's awful and unfortunately a lot of people really don't get it... And the last few months my cycles have one lasted 3 weeks, so it's pretty much non stop hell.

    First, medicate. I pretty much have to alternate Advil and Tylenol (or store brands, but it has to be soft gels or it takes too long to work) every 2-3 hours for days. I start as soon as I get up. Once the pain is gone, it's much easier to get moving.

    Exercise more. Seriously. My last bad PMS day was bad, but I try to stay active and end up burning off a big chunk of the surplus (I laugh at the 'eat at maintenance' posts. Maintenance doesn't even get close to cutting it for me). I've increased my activity and walk whenever I have 30 minutes to kill (instead of just sitting down and watching TV or browsing the web or something - exceptions being in the morning while I drink my coffee and at night when the kids are in bed).

    Find what foods REALLY satisfy you. That horrible hunger feeling... what can you eat in reasonable quantities to make it go away? For me, I've found that just a plain English muffin will work much better than ice cream or cookies (I might crave them but they really don't satisfy me and I can't stop eating them if I start at that time). The key is to eat as little as possible of the thing that will satisfy you, and avoid the stuff that won't, no matter how tempting.

    The whole mental thing... I know it's not it for me because sometimes I skip a period and it doesn't happen to me at all. I always kinda feel insulted when people suggest it though! And yeah, some cycles it doesn't happen more than maybe a day and I'm so grateful.

    And my best advice if you don't want to gain weight from that - eat less on the easier days. It sucks, but that's pretty much how I've managed not to gain back the weight in 2.5 years (I've gained back a couple pounds when Holidays and special events fell on usually 'normal' days and I wasn't able to keep a deficit that 'easy' week, but that's pretty much it and my clothes still fit the same).

    Yeah, the suggestion is a put off to some degree. I guess sometimes it's hard for people to believe that something can be real for others, if they don't experience it themselves.

    It is real for sure!!
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