Non Spirtual meditation
Tacklewasher
Posts: 7,122 Member
One of the threads here got me thinking about meditation. I'm an atheist and have no wish for a spiritual or religious take on it, but am wondering if there is a good read or study on meditation that might appeal to me and let me know what it is about.
Biggest thing for me would be stress reduction.
From the thread, I got to an old book https://www.amazon.com/Relaxation-Response-Herbert-Benson/dp/0380006766/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 and am wondering if anyone has read it, or something similar. I'm interested both in why to do it and how to do it.
BTW, this is something that has been on my mind for a bit, the thread just kinda reminded me to ask.
Also I wasn't really sure where to ask, so I'm in the general section. If a mod thinks this is better answered elsewhere, please feel free to move it.
Thanks.
Biggest thing for me would be stress reduction.
From the thread, I got to an old book https://www.amazon.com/Relaxation-Response-Herbert-Benson/dp/0380006766/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 and am wondering if anyone has read it, or something similar. I'm interested both in why to do it and how to do it.
BTW, this is something that has been on my mind for a bit, the thread just kinda reminded me to ask.
Also I wasn't really sure where to ask, so I'm in the general section. If a mod thinks this is better answered elsewhere, please feel free to move it.
Thanks.
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Replies
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I don't have a book to recommend, but if you have a smartphone, I have had success with the "Calm" app. It has guided meditations and it's non-spiritual (at least every one I've done). I had trouble getting my mind "quiet" so doing guided was an excellent start for me.4
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I read a book that was really good about it, "The Meditation Transformation" by Jennifer Brooks. I thought it was a very good book for the basics of how and why to meditate. Not religious at all either.1
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Can't recommend any books, but I will say I find it very calming so if you are looking for stress reduction this very well may work for you.1
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I am an atheist as well. i don't meditate but I never thought of it as a religious thing. Not sure why one would.1
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Explore yoga and meditation sites and apps as well. There are some good short 5 minute guided breathing and imagery meditations from such sites as http://www.innerhealthstudio.com/relaxation-scripts.html and http://www.the-guided-meditation-site.com/progressive-muscle-relaxation-script.html. A fellow athiest, I enjoy a good yoga class every now and then!0
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My son meditates and it helps him tremendously. He is atheist.
I have done some meditation...I am agnostic.
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janejellyroll wrote: »I don't have a book to recommend, but if you have a smartphone, I have had success with the "Calm" app. It has guided meditations and it's non-spiritual (at least every one I've done). I had trouble getting my mind "quiet" so doing guided was an excellent start for me.
^ exact same thing I was going to recommend. I use the breathing tool the most. After about 10 minutes (not sure, I only listen I don't look at my phone) I'm almost "high" in a way. Maybe I'm Zen? I don't know what Zen is so I chose to use the word high. Definitely a clear mind and better functionality the next day. I do it at night.
I also use another app called "Relax Melodies" for sleep. It has over 20 sounds and you can mix them, at different volumes to play continuously or set a timer for it to gradually fade away.
I am not religious at all and would freak out if someone pushed that on me but I knew I needed meditation of some kind for my anxiety. I do other things too but these are easy and daily. One thing though, you've got to give it a chance. It takes longer than 2 minutes to clear your mind. It took patience and practice but now I love it!
Good luck! Asking questions and researching is a great start!1 -
I did the intro course through Headspace, and then switched to Insight Timer for apps. I read "10% Happier", and enjoyed it. The author is a journalist and very level to read.
Meditation isn't really inherently religious at all. It's attempting to control your thoughts and gain distance between your self and your emotions and desires. Download headspace and do the free 10 session intro. It includes animations that give you a basic overview. There's nothing incompatible with atheism.1 -
There's been a huge surge in mindfulness meditation in the past few years, which is non spiritual and more about mind training. I have meditated on and off for 3 years but never for spiritual reasons. I used to use Headspace, which is a mindfulness website (and app) that has a free 10-session course you can try before paying a small subscription to download the guided meditations. I also have an app called Buddhify that is non spiritual (despite the name), which has guided meditations for different situations (some have a lot of guidance and not enough silence!). To read up on mindfulness, try books by Jon Kabat-Zinn.
I don't meditate at the moment (I find daily yoga has a similar effect with the added bonus of stretching) but the habits I learned while using the Headspace app have stuck. Good luck!
[edited for spelling]1 -
Thanks all. Some things to try.0
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janejellyroll wrote: »I don't have a book to recommend, but if you have a smartphone, I have had success with the "Calm" app. It has guided meditations and it's non-spiritual (at least every one I've done). I had trouble getting my mind "quiet" so doing guided was an excellent start for me.
^ exact same thing I was going to recommend. I use the breathing tool the most. After about 10 minutes (not sure, I only listen I don't look at my phone) I'm almost "high" in a way. Maybe I'm Zen? I don't know what Zen is so I chose to use the word high. Definitely a clear mind and better functionality the next day. I do it at night.
I also use another app called "Relax Melodies" for sleep. It has over 20 sounds and you can mix them, at different volumes to play continuously or set a timer for it to gradually fade away.
I am not religious at all and would freak out if someone pushed that on me but I knew I needed meditation of some kind for my anxiety. I do other things too but these are easy and daily. One thing though, you've got to give it a chance. It takes longer than 2 minutes to clear your mind. It took patience and practice but now I love it!
Good luck! Asking questions and researching is a great start!
I LOVE Relax Melodies. It has so many different options for sounds and is great for relaxing/sleeping.2 -
I'm an agnostic, as well as a skeptic generally, and I think I was one of the people who started this line of discussion on the other thread. I'm also a hobby reader of all kinds of neuroscience books (emphasis on the "science"), so I think I'm reasonably non-woo-woo in how I look at these things.
I've used some meditiation techniques off and on over the years, and found them beneficial, but admit I haven't had a continuous long-term consistent practice. (I've done it daily or near-daily for some periods of up to a year or two, in my 61 years, and still use the techniques regularly in specific situations, just not as a daily practice - which would be more beneficial, IMO.)
The Benson book (Relaxation Response) is good in that it's very matter-of-fact, and he strives to be research-based. Very non-woo, IMO (though I have to admit it's been years since I read it, and my copy is loaned out right now so I can't skim to verify). My memory is that he worked quite hard to keep it practical, not mystical. He had a subsequent book on the same subject ("Beyond the Relaxation Response") that I found kind of re-hash-y and lame, though.
Using the apps is a realistic option now, but I haven't done so, so I'll let others advise you on that.
Another book I liked was "How to Meditate" by Lawrence LeShan. It does include some religiously-oriented methods, but is an interesting survey of different meditation approaches.
I tend to use either the Benson approach (which is more or less a mantra-type process, with a low woo factor around the mantra), a basic general mindful activity approach, or more specifically a "watching the breath" approach, depending on the circumstances.
Overall, I'd put it in the "can't hurt, might help" category for (systematic) stress reduction and some other potential benefits. Some people like it, some don't. Consistent practice has more benefits than inconsistent - JMO.1 -
I'm agnostic and I meditate. I've never thought of it as an inherently religious practice...some may be on a spiritual quest of some sort, but really it's just a calming of the mind and letting go of the need to control.2
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@annpt77 Yeah, it's all your fault I'm thinking about this
The books is 10 bucks or so on Kindle. I may pick it up to read.
Also, in my mind (as twisted as it may be), I think there is a separation from religious and spiritual, just that I am neither.1 -
I started with deep breathing as a way to manage pain but the other side effects were relaxation and stress reduction. Just taking a few minutes to sit quietly and focus on your breathing can make a world of difference. It doesn't have to be a long formal thing. And I did also do it lying in bed at night to quiet an anxious mind to help with sleep.1
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Tacklewasher wrote: »@annpt77 Yeah, it's all your fault I'm thinking about this
The books is 10 bucks or so on Kindle. I may pick it up to read.
Also, in my mind (as twisted as it may be), I think there is a separation from religious and spiritual, just that I am neither.
I'm also deeply non-spiritual. There's a lot of written matter about meditation. Even some of the writings with just a whiff of spirituality around them can be interesting because of more practical or scientific content interwoven in it, so it's a help to becoming well-informed if you can tolerate and read past a bit of those flavors.
But there's quite a lot of quite science-based writing on the subject these days, as well.
P.S. Kindle's good, but if you like physical books, it isn't unusual to see this in bigger used book stores. If the $10 isn't a big deal to you, I'd say "go for it", but the web site I linked in the other thread has some basics on it if you want a free entrée into the subject. (http://relaxationresponse.org/) Be aware, though, that - despite the Benson-ized name, and the basic steps of his method on the "steps" page - this appears to be a Transcendental Meditation web site, and those folks have got a revenue model and (IMO) some woo in their world.0 -
I'm an agnostic, dyslxic insomniac. I lay awake all night wondering if there is a dog.
Seriously, I can't get the brain quiet enough to meditate on my own. I've tried again and again. I really like guided meditation though. The Honest Guys on YT have a lot I like and I recently ran across this one that I really like for stress and anxiety.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vO1wPAmiMQ
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There is an app called headspace that is really great. I prefer it to the calm app. It's the most non spiritual approach to meditation I have seen.0
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Isn't the word "spiritual" funny? It's like saying, "I'm not emotional" or "I'm not physical". Wish there was a different word we could use instead of spiritual. It's about consciousness and awareness, let's say that. Classic study from a more Western medical/scientific model would be someone like Jon Kabat-Zinn. He's done a lot of research since the 1970's on mindfulness meditation, and his method of "Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction" is used in hospitals for patients with chronic pain. Also consider checking out the HeartMath Institute. They've also done amazing research and have a lot of free info. You can look both up on "Google Scholar" - or even meditation itself, to find more grounded documented research studies. I hope that will help ease your scientifically interested side and let go of the "spiritual" aspect so that you can enjoy the benefits of meditation. Meditation isn't just an aside from your "regular" life - it's when you are PRESENT - washing the dishes, taking a walk... just "present" to all your senses, thoughts, feelings in that moment. Let that include your concern about spirituality and that you're doing it just right in YOUR unique way! Oh - and maybe some research on peak performance, as since this is a fitness site, you might enjoy that too. Have fun!0
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I like any of the stuff by Jon Kabbat-Zinn. His writing is really accessible and practical.0
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Another atheist here. I started meditating as a way to help keep calm during stressful situations. Taking ten minutes to quiet myself after a bad situation can help put things into perspective.
https://www.youtube.com/user/PositiveMagazine
I've tried a couple an app and a podcast network, but this Youtube channel has really clicked with me. While I can't speak for the whole channel, the positive meditations and talk down meditations are pretty nifty.0 -
I am an atheist as well. i don't meditate but I never thought of it as a religious thing. Not sure why one would.
What is generally thought of as meditation comes from the Eastern religions. Because they believe that having personal desire can prevent someone from reaching enlightenment, they try to remove all desire by mediating. In doing so they are trying to remove all thought from their mind.
In Christianity, mediation takes a different form. The elimination of desire isn't something that is required because all is required was done by Jesus Christ when he died and rose from the dead on the Christians behalf. Instead, the Christian seeks for a better understanding of God. Great importance is placed on the Bible and the evidence that confirms it. It is this that a Christian meditates on, though it could just as easily be called Bible study and scientific research instead of meditation.
It seems to me that what a person mediates on reveals what they are putting their trust in, and that makes it a very religious thing.2 -
TimothyFish wrote: »I am an atheist as well. i don't meditate but I never thought of it as a religious thing. Not sure why one would.
What is generally thought of as meditation comes from the Eastern religions. Because they believe that having personal desire can prevent someone from reaching enlightenment, they try to remove all desire by mediating. In doing so they are trying to remove all thought from their mind.
In Christianity, mediation takes a different form. The elimination of desire isn't something that is required because all is required was done by Jesus Christ when he died and rose from the dead on the Christians behalf. Instead, the Christian seeks for a better understanding of God. Great importance is placed on the Bible and the evidence that confirms it. It is this that a Christian meditates on, though it could just as easily be called Bible study and scientific research instead of meditation.
It seems to me that what a person mediates on reveals what they are putting their trust in, and that makes it a very religious thing.
I fail to see the religious content in maintaining calm awareness of the sensation of my own breathing, and setting aside other thoughts.
I admit, I trust (in a limited, provisional sense) that I'll keep breathing, but if and when I stop I don't think I'll be here to care.
Mindfulness meditations, as practiced by some of us moderns, don't necessarily have an objective of removing desire, nor do they necessarily have a focus in the sense that inherently Christian meditations do.
So: Religious content/implications are possible, but not necessary, in meditation practice, IMO.0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »I am an atheist as well. i don't meditate but I never thought of it as a religious thing. Not sure why one would.
What is generally thought of as meditation comes from the Eastern religions. Because they believe that having personal desire can prevent someone from reaching enlightenment, they try to remove all desire by mediating. In doing so they are trying to remove all thought from their mind.
In Christianity, mediation takes a different form. The elimination of desire isn't something that is required because all is required was done by Jesus Christ when he died and rose from the dead on the Christians behalf. Instead, the Christian seeks for a better understanding of God. Great importance is placed on the Bible and the evidence that confirms it. It is this that a Christian meditates on, though it could just as easily be called Bible study and scientific research instead of meditation.
It seems to me that what a person mediates on reveals what they are putting their trust in, and that makes it a very religious thing.
I fail to see the religious content in maintaining calm awareness of the sensation of my own breathing, and setting aside other thoughts.
I admit, I trust (in a limited, provisional sense) that I'll keep breathing, but if and when I stop I don't think I'll be here to care.
Mindfulness meditations, as practiced by some of us moderns, don't necessarily have an objective of removing desire, nor do they necessarily have a focus in the sense that inherently Christian meditations do.
So: Religious content/implications are possible, but not necessary, in meditation practice, IMO.
I would argue that the fact that you are placing the priority on focusing on your own breathing for whatever reason you are doing it reveals something about your view of religion.1 -
What has worked Wonders for me for relaxing and meditation are Binaural Beats, many various types available on YouTube!
It's calming and I use it to fall asleep.0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »I am an atheist as well. i don't meditate but I never thought of it as a religious thing. Not sure why one would.
What is generally thought of as meditation comes from the Eastern religions. Because they believe that having personal desire can prevent someone from reaching enlightenment, they try to remove all desire by mediating. In doing so they are trying to remove all thought from their mind.
In Christianity, mediation takes a different form. The elimination of desire isn't something that is required because all is required was done by Jesus Christ when he died and rose from the dead on the Christians behalf. Instead, the Christian seeks for a better understanding of God. Great importance is placed on the Bible and the evidence that confirms it. It is this that a Christian meditates on, though it could just as easily be called Bible study and scientific research instead of meditation.
It seems to me that what a person mediates on reveals what they are putting their trust in, and that makes it a very religious thing.
I fail to see the religious content in maintaining calm awareness of the sensation of my own breathing, and setting aside other thoughts.
I admit, I trust (in a limited, provisional sense) that I'll keep breathing, but if and when I stop I don't think I'll be here to care.
Mindfulness meditations, as practiced by some of us moderns, don't necessarily have an objective of removing desire, nor do they necessarily have a focus in the sense that inherently Christian meditations do.
So: Religious content/implications are possible, but not necessary, in meditation practice, IMO.
I would argue that the fact that you are placing the priority on focusing on your own breathing for whatever reason you are doing it reveals something about your view of religion.
Presumably the fact that at other times I focus intently for 10 minutes on speeding the fingering cleanly up the banjo-neck in a particular piece I'm practicing; or on eating a delicious bowl of sweet potato peanut bisque; or on getting a cleaner catch with my oars; or on listening to "Car Talk" on the radio; or on keeping my walking speed above 4mph; or what have you - those also reveal something about my view of religion.
OK.
Truly, I'm just not that spiritual. I know this sort of thing is difficult for spiritual people to believe or understand, though. Peace - you can define your meditation; I'll define mine.0 -
Another vote for Jon Kabbat-Zinn.1
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I'm an agnostic, dyslxic insomniac. I lay awake all night wondering if there is a dog.
Seriously, I can't get the brain quiet enough to meditate on my own. I've tried again and again. I really like guided meditation though. The Honest Guys on YT have a lot I like and I recently ran across this one that I really like for stress and anxiety.
Funniest thing I've read on these forums
Lots of people's brains aren't automatically quiet enough to meditate. That's actually thought to be why yoga was invented - to quiet the monkey mind before meditation. My mind is often not quiet enough for yoga - I find it helpful to do some cardio first. Or I do my warmups with the TV on, and after that switch to a more meditative practice.
Yoga is sometimes referred to as "Meditation in Motion".
Also, no points subtracted for guided meditation 0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »I am an atheist as well. i don't meditate but I never thought of it as a religious thing. Not sure why one would.
What is generally thought of as meditation comes from the Eastern religions. Because they believe that having personal desire can prevent someone from reaching enlightenment, they try to remove all desire by mediating. In doing so they are trying to remove all thought from their mind.
In Christianity, mediation takes a different form. The elimination of desire isn't something that is required because all is required was done by Jesus Christ when he died and rose from the dead on the Christians behalf. Instead, the Christian seeks for a better understanding of God. Great importance is placed on the Bible and the evidence that confirms it. It is this that a Christian meditates on, though it could just as easily be called Bible study and scientific research instead of meditation.
It seems to me that what a person mediates on reveals what they are putting their trust in, and that makes it a very religious thing.
I fail to see the religious content in maintaining calm awareness of the sensation of my own breathing, and setting aside other thoughts.
I admit, I trust (in a limited, provisional sense) that I'll keep breathing, but if and when I stop I don't think I'll be here to care.
Mindfulness meditations, as practiced by some of us moderns, don't necessarily have an objective of removing desire, nor do they necessarily have a focus in the sense that inherently Christian meditations do.
So: Religious content/implications are possible, but not necessary, in meditation practice, IMO.
I would argue that the fact that you are placing the priority on focusing on your own breathing for whatever reason you are doing it reveals something about your view of religion.
Presumably the fact that at other times I focus intently for 10 minutes on speeding the fingering cleanly up the banjo-neck in a particular piece I'm practicing; or on eating a delicious bowl of sweet potato peanut bisque; or on getting a cleaner catch with my oars; or on listening to "Car Talk" on the radio; or on keeping my walking speed above 4mph; or what have you - those also reveal something about my view of religion.
OK.
Truly, I'm just not that spiritual. I know this sort of thing is difficult for spiritual people to believe or understand, though. Peace - you can define your meditation; I'll define mine.
No, nothing like what you call "meditation." I actually find your use of the word "spiritual" to be more revealing. It isn't a word that I've heard a devout person of any religion use to describe themselves. It tends to be used by people who see religion as a set of activities that they can choose to do or perhaps lay aside if it is inconvenient. It isn't used by people whose beliefs permeate their who lives. Which is why meditation tells us so much about a person's beliefs. For a person whose beliefs permeate their lives, if you remove everything that distracts them what you have left are their most important beliefs. If you do that with a "spiritual" or a "non-spiritual" person, the "spiritual" stuff is just one of the things that distracts them. Remove that and everything else that distracts them and what you have left is their core beliefs. Whatever that is, that is their religion.1
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