Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Do we trust professionals too much?
Replies
-
I think some people just want to be told what to do every day. They want a meal plan. They want an exercise plan. They want a specific diet with rules laid out clearly. I don't think it is trust as much believing weight loss is complicated and hard. No normal human could know how to lose weight and get fit or we'd all be fit. They also want something they can lay the responsibility and blame on besides themselves IMO.
5 -
Is it possible that your friend and her trainer are on different pages? Maybe she said to him, "I want to tone" which he took as, "she wants to build muscle so she needs to eat more" and she doesn't get that...? I dunno.
she wants to tone and her trainer (also a she) said cut carbs they make you fluffy...and said trainer is essentially controlling her entire diet (this conversation happened because she was bemoaning that she had put weight on)0 -
Unfortunately, a trainer is NOT a professional dietitian. So if you trust someone on something that they're NOT specialized or properly/fully trained in.. that's your mistake.
Heck some trainers out there don't even have enough education to be considered a professional in their chosen career.
Also to me.. a person is a professional if their reputation is on the line for what they say and do. Like a doctor, CPA or engineer. They have to answer to an authority and have the risk of fines, job (and certification/license) loss and jail time if they screw up big time. That's not the case for trainers. Career =/= Profession, in my books. I might be biased though lol. And my interpretation of the word "professional" is probably not the same as most people's.2 -
Also to me.. a person is a professional if their reputation is on the line for what they say and do. Like a doctor, CPA or engineer. They have to answer to an authority and have the risk of fines, job (and certification/license) loss and jail time if they screw up big time.
This. I'm a CA, CPA.
2 -
IMO there is no universal rule, other than one should always take an active partnership role with whatever "professional" you are working with. I don't expect my doctors, dentists, financial advisors, etc to be wizards or godlike authorities. I expect them to be knowledgeable, I expect them to have experience, I expect them to be problem solvers, I expect them to be up to date on relevant research, I expect them to know what they don't know and how to find the answers, and, finally, I expect them to treat me as an individual and respect me as a full partner.
As someone who is a "professional" in fitness and, I hold myself to those same standards.
I would say that while there are many excellent professionals in fitness, there are way fewer "experts". And that's fine. A good professional will know how to find answers to questions he/she is not an "expert" in, and will know how to evaluate sources of information to determine what is most valid. I don't know every exercise and I don't know everything about every type of training. I also am not an expert therapist. But I can search the internet for exercises for a client with an injury or medical issue that I am not as knowledgeable about, and find the best ones and those most relevant to my client. I am excellent at analysis and problem solving and that goes a long way towards making me more of an "expert". Many of my clients tell me they have gotten better results with me than with any other trainer they have worked with--not because I am so fantabulously wonderful or inspiring, but because I have excellent empathy skills, I pay attention to every rep, and I am scrupulous about making sure that each workout is crafted to meet their needs and scaled to their ability.
The problem with fitness and trainers is that there are no standards, no licensure, really almost no regulations whatsoever. Most "certifications" mean absolutely nothing. So much of the trainer culture is based on self-promotion rather than actually achieving results. I have seen numerous advertisements for marketing ideas like "put out a newsletter that promotes you as an 'expert'". There is never any mention of "develop the knowledge so that you can provide meaningful and accurate information".
So while there are many excellent, conscientious, professional trainers out there (I work with 10 of them), too often they are overlooked in favor of charismatic dilettantes.1 -
Professionals are only as good as the training they've had. Many times that training is outdated and/or slanted. So, that is what you get from them. It's always best do do your own research..1
-
There is also the issue of which is more important: academic training or practical experience. As someone who has both, I can say with conviction that both are equally necessary.
Someone with a degree, but no experience is going to waste people's time by giving them information or exercises that aren't really relevant. Their heads can be so stuck in their books that they fail to notice the actual person in front of them. They are not as aware of population variability, and lack the skill to provide individualized instruction.
Someone with experience but little or no academic training tends to be "thintelligent". They may know a lot about a specific exercise or training method--even more than an "expert"--but they lack a broad-based understanding of fundamental principles of physiology. That makes them less able to critically evaluate new information, products, workouts, or other fitness trends. These folks tend to be the biggest self-promoters, so they are especially susceptible to inaccurate fads and trends. These are the folks who couldn't spell "cortisol" if you gave them six of the letters, but suddenly represent themselves as experts in endocrinology. It also means then tend to give the same advice, training program, etc to everyone--because that is all they know.
Having worked with hundreds of professionals over 33 years, I can tell you that there is a categorical difference between a trainer with a BS or MS in exercise science and one who just has a lot of experience and has a "shake and bake" certification. Those without a degree become exposed very quickly.
But I can also say that there is no comparison between a new grad with a degree and someone with a degree and a year's worth of training experience.
To be a true professional, you need a mixture of both.6 -
I think it's important to look to the right professionals. I would not consider a trainer at the gym a professional in nutrition. I look to people that study nutrition or are licensed dieticians for nutritional advice. And even then I make sure I fully read everything and check multiple sources.0
-
Coolhand1969 wrote: »Professionals are only as good as the training they've had. Many times that training is outdated and/or slanted. So, that is what you get from them. It's always best do do your own research..
Not to mention how long ago they were trained, do they keep up with current best practice in their fields and, of course, the all important how good have they been at their job to date?
Results. I want to see or establish a history of good results before I'm willing to trust without doing some crosschecking. And even then, everyone has a bad day (or blind spots). If something doesn't sound kosher I'll check into it even if it came from someone I trust to know their stuff.
ETA: My doctors, vets, etc just LOVE me
0 -
A trainer isn't a professional in nutrition. At most a professional in exercise.0
-
professionals?1 those dickbags are the ones who got us into all these messes
time to drain the swamp of professionals and shake things up0 -
Coolhand1969 wrote: »Professionals are only as good as the training they've had. Many times that training is outdated and/or slanted. So, that is what you get from them. It's always best do do your own research..
This.
My MIL was a registered dietician and she still believes anything she hears on Dr. Oz or The Chew. It's weird because she does support me weighing and logging my food and says that's what works, but then she spout off about some super food or how she's been gaining weight because she's eating after 7pm.
Professionals are people too, some are great at their jobs and some are terrible at their jobs.3 -
SingRunTing wrote: »Coolhand1969 wrote: »Professionals are only as good as the training they've had. Many times that training is outdated and/or slanted. So, that is what you get from them. It's always best do do your own research..
This.
My MIL was a registered dietician and she still believes anything she hears on Dr. Oz or The Chew. It's weird because she does support me weighing and logging my food and says that's what works, but then she spout off about some super food or how she's been gaining weight because she's eating after 7pm.
Professionals are people too, some are great at their jobs and some are terrible at their jobs.
on a triathlon forum lst night - had a "dietician" talk about starvation mode and how the person asking the question was going into that...I just couldn't...
0 -
I lost 145 lbs by having the support of my Weight Watchers group and followed their program BUT I became a runner based on reading many, many articles. Same with weight training. Learned it on my own by listening to multiple people. Once I obtained the support of "Professionals", I hated it. I paid for a marathon training plan and it totally screwed with my psyche and when I hired a trainer at the gym, he was not only full of himself but he was giving out really BAD food advice. From this experience, I've learned to trust myself and all that I learned from my initial weight loss journey back in 2009/2010. I won't use a professional anymore.3
-
I am a dietitian. All advice I give must be evidenced based, meaning there is a large body of research to support it. If there is no research to support it, I will not recommend it. If the research is conflicting (ie, saturated fats) that is what I tell them, and also what the professional organizations (American Heart Assoication, Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics) are recommending.
I encourage people to do their own research and make their own informed decisions. I am happy to provide sources for all that I recommend. I want people to think critically and ask questions. I have no issues being challenged or saying "I don't know".I think some people just want to be told what to do every day. They want a meal plan. They want an exercise plan. They want a specific diet with rules laid out clearly. I don't think it is trust as much believing weight loss is complicated and hard. No normal human could know how to lose weight and get fit or we'd all be fit. They also want something they can lay the responsibility and blame on besides themselves IMO.
I experience this frequently, and I tell patients I can help them build a meal plan but I am not just going to hand them a generic print out. They must learn to think critically and ask good questions, otherwise they will fall prey to scams and fad diets.
I also have lots of patients that don't believe in calorie counting and insist that "eating clean" is the key to losing weight, or that it is their hormones or metabolisms that prevent them from losing weight, or that they only eat 1,000 calories yet can't lose weight, or that they need to eat a certain food to lose weight, etc. They have their own agenda/beliefs and when I don't think people need to eat organic non-gmo to eat healthy and lose weight I lose all credibility in their eyes. Oh well.
5 -
Also I have learned a lot from this forum and reddit!1
-
SingRunTing wrote: »Coolhand1969 wrote: »Professionals are only as good as the training they've had. Many times that training is outdated and/or slanted. So, that is what you get from them. It's always best do do your own research..
This.
My MIL was a registered dietician and she still believes anything she hears on Dr. Oz or The Chew. It's weird because she does support me weighing and logging my food and says that's what works, but then she spout off about some super food or how she's been gaining weight because she's eating after 7pm.
Professionals are people too, some are great at their jobs and some are terrible at their jobs.
Communication and marketing are key. You may be the smartest person in the room, but this is useless if you can't communicate effectively.
A successful professional will stay current, be able to speak to the listener/write to the reader, discern what they can prove and what they believe...
Bottom line if a professional cannot prove they provide value - they won't be a professional for long.0 -
I lost 145 lbs by having the support of my Weight Watchers group and followed their program BUT I became a runner based on reading many, many articles. Same with weight training. Learned it on my own by listening to multiple people. Once I obtained the support of "Professionals", I hated it. I paid for a marathon training plan and it totally screwed with my psyche and when I hired a trainer at the gym, he was not only full of himself but he was giving out really BAD food advice. From this experience, I've learned to trust myself and all that I learned from my initial weight loss journey back in 2009/2010. I won't use a professional anymore.
Freaking A right. Trust what works for you. You did the hard work, and YOU got YOUR results. No one else did. YOUR research, YOUR sweat and hard work. CICO works, dieting works, Running? *kitten*, congrats, that REALLY works oh and...YOUR HARD WORK!!! Awesome to you, unreal!
Thanks for posting this bruddah. 0 -
Depends on the trainer. Unlike many, I had to perform some "live" training with someone who scored me to receive my cert. And unlike many trainers, I will be the first to call BS on a lot of fitness and diet industries broscience.xmichaelyx wrote: »Information literacy is the ability to effectively evaluate information sources. There's nothing wrong with using Google if you're information literate, but few people are.
As far as personal trainers: They tend to know nothing because there's really no training involved. The "trainers" at my old gym had a 45-minute intro to what all the machines did, and then were allowed to "train" people. Trainers are right up there with nutritionists in terms of the actual knowledge & education needed to gain the title.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
deannalfisher wrote: »Absolutely. Never allow anyone to stand on the "letters behind their name". The veracity of the statement is all that matters.
Something I've learned is that when someone stands on their experience or title this is usually because the data is lacking.
Further complicating this is the sheer volume of information out there and the myopic focus of experts. This reinforces the need for generalists to review information to ensure the ramifications are not worse than the solution.
assuming they have letters after their name...I would trust them (marginally) more than a trainer...but even professionals with certifications make errors - one of my good friends is still dealing with an RD who she worked with during Ironman training that reduced her cals wayyy down and caused some metabolic damage when she went in for medical testing
I have letters after my name and read a lot about health/fitness/nutrition.
However I'm in no way qualified to give advice.1 -
trigden1991 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »Absolutely. Never allow anyone to stand on the "letters behind their name". The veracity of the statement is all that matters.
Something I've learned is that when someone stands on their experience or title this is usually because the data is lacking.
Further complicating this is the sheer volume of information out there and the myopic focus of experts. This reinforces the need for generalists to review information to ensure the ramifications are not worse than the solution.
assuming they have letters after their name...I would trust them (marginally) more than a trainer...but even professionals with certifications make errors - one of my good friends is still dealing with an RD who she worked with during Ironman training that reduced her cals wayyy down and caused some metabolic damage when she went in for medical testing
I have letters after my name and read a lot about health/fitness/nutrition.
However I'm in no way qualified to give advice.
The best part here, is that you admit that you are unqualified, while giving far better advice than most who would consider themselves qualified to do so.4 -
KatieJane83 wrote: »I think another piece of the problem is that people tend to indiscriminately trust a 'professional', even if they're not a professional in the particular field the person is asking about.
Maybe a trainer is certified/trained/educated/whatever, in physical training. Ok, so they're a legit 'professional', but only in that specific field. You shouldn't then go to them for dietary or medical advice just because they're a 'professional'. I'd go to a dietician for the dietary advice, and a doctor for the medical advice. The same way I wouldn't go to my GP for dietary advice. Sure, they're a professional with lots and lots and lots of schooling, but very very little of it is actually in diet and nutrition. So I think that people also have a tendency to assume that a 'professional' in a particular field somehow has authority over many other fields, and people don't take the time to stop and really question whether a 'qualified' person is actually 'qualified' in the type of info they're looking for.
This is the biggest issue for me. I look at education and experience in a specific field. I would put more value/stock in a person's advice if they hold a masters in nutritional sciences and physiology field, than if you are a Harvard trained MD.
So, I treat nutrition and exercise as much of a specialty as any other.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »Absolutely. Never allow anyone to stand on the "letters behind their name". The veracity of the statement is all that matters.
Something I've learned is that when someone stands on their experience or title this is usually because the data is lacking.
Further complicating this is the sheer volume of information out there and the myopic focus of experts. This reinforces the need for generalists to review information to ensure the ramifications are not worse than the solution.
assuming they have letters after their name...I would trust them (marginally) more than a trainer...but even professionals with certifications make errors - one of my good friends is still dealing with an RD who she worked with during Ironman training that reduced her cals wayyy down and caused some metabolic damage when she went in for medical testing
I have letters after my name and read a lot about health/fitness/nutrition.
However I'm in no way qualified to give advice.
The best part here, is that you admit that you are unqualified, while giving far better advice than most who would consider themselves qualified to do so.
Too kind.0 -
The Milgram study suggests that ~65% of people will do something, even horrible somethings, because a person perceived to be an authority figure tells them to do it. From that perspective, yes, I think there is a tendency to trust "authority" too much.
OTOH, though, we seem to be going to the extreme opposite, where your degree from Google University is as good as someone who is speaking to his or her expertise in a field.
I think @psuLemon hit the nail on the head when saying that you have to look at education and experience relative to the subject the expert is speaking on; otherwise, you get Dr. Oz, who is apparently a fabulous cardio-thoracic surgeon, but has made a fortune selling and promoting nutritional snake oil, which he's probably not super qualified to speak on.0 -
The Milgram study suggests that ~65% of people will do something, even horrible somethings, because a person perceived to be an authority figure tells them to do it. From that perspective, yes, I think there is a tendency to trust "authority" too much.
OTOH, though, we seem to be going to the extreme opposite, where your degree from Google University is as good as someone who is speaking to his or her expertise in a field.
I think @psuLemon hit the nail on the head when saying that you have to look at education and experience relative to the subject the expert is speaking on; otherwise, you get Dr. Oz, who is apparently a fabulous cardio-thoracic surgeon, but has made a fortune selling and promoting nutritional snake oil, which he's probably not super qualified to speak on.
This. I listen to professionals but rarely follow the advice of just one. I try to look at the thoughts of several in the field. If they are all in the same direction, it's probably pretty solid advice. With the Dr Oz example, few other actual MDs or other reliable sources agree with the crap he is spewing, so he would not be someone I'd trust.
There may be a brilliant new thinker I'd miss by not following someone with radically different ideas, but probably not.1 -
I think that professionals is a very loose term. I tend to equate this more with those in the medical field, practicing law, bankers, etc. We all have the ability to go out and get as many differing opinions as we want when it comes to speaking to professionals. For example, (and maybe a bit TMI), but my monthly was horrific. It always had been. I had spoken to my doctor about this, and his solution was birth control. I researched different options and spoke to him about an IUD, which he refused. He said he would only prescribe the pill. I went to another doctor who spoke with me about different options they provided, including the IUD. It was effective in helping, to a point. 7 years later, I had a cancer scare (which ended up not being cancer at all, thankfully) and one of the doctors I went to did an ultrasound and noticed my uterus was larger than average. He point blank asked me if I had heavy periods. I told him I did, and we ran through my medical history in trying to contain things. He spoke with me about an ablation, and since I was done having kids, I decided this was a great option. I wish I had known about it 4 years sooner, but at least I found out! All this to say, that even the professionals tend to bring their own personal experiences and opinions to the table, based on information they have read or things they have been through. Some of these opinions and experiences may not be what is right for you and your body. You know the way your body feels better than anyone. I still see the first doctor as a primary care, but not for my women's health issues becuase his ideas are very old school (such as when I gave birth to my daughter, he told me I couldn't do anything but lay on my back the whole time, and when I told him I didn't an epidural, he laughed at me).2
-
My experience is pretty bad with professionals, needless to say I hardly trust them anymore.
I was removed the appendicitis when I fact I had a kidney infection (I kid you not!!) it was over the Christmas period when it happened and the on duty surgeon was pretty much drunk (according to my dad, I was pretty much out of it when it happened, they gave me strong painkillers ).
Years later, they found some concerning scar tissues in my eye (just a routine check) they operated on it and then the hell broke loose - started to have lots of side effect from the surgery several retinal tears, loss of vision (black holes) and they operated again which make things worse... I search for second opinion just to find out that I did not need any surgery in the first place ....
Anyway ....I have unfortunately many more stories like that.... too many.
It took me 35 years to find one decent competent GP who cares.1 -
I never trust a professional who dismisses all my concerns. I remember firing my GI doctor while I was hospitalized for ulcerative colitis. He was doing a wait and see approach ... umm, wait and see what? I dropped 25 pounds in 2 weeks, was severely anemic and could not even take a sip of water without wanting to totally purge. So he was fired and with the help of several friends, including one in the health insurance business, was able to get another doctor in pronto. He had me stabilized within 2 weeks so I could go home. Ten years later, he is still my doctor and I only see him 2x a year for check-ups where he constantly amazed that I keep the UC in check from diet and exercise alone - no maintenance drugs! I did my own research into foods that would help and my doctor learned along with me because he actually told me that they don't really cover nutrition in med school. Because he learned from my experiences, he has been able to help other patients stay in remission with diet and exercise.1
-
Everyone is so different and reacts to different things. Generally a "professional" that's has credentials knows what they are talking about as a whole, but we don't all fit into a box in my opinion.
Originally I got on a plan I found on bodybuilding put together by a person that was in tremendous shape. I was excited about it started it and it had worked since day one. Been on the same plan for 6 months and 80 lbs now. 30 percent body fat to 19 percent. It's still working and I love it...but I could pull up 50 people talking terrible on it over and over calling it junk, the guy is stupid and so on. They will say it's only noobie gains. It's amazing how so many people are so called experts when it comes to diet and exercise. If you find something that is working stick with it till it no longer works for you. I'm kind of off topic now...but it's just something that gets under my skin0 -
There are professionals ... And then there are professionals.
I'm not sure how it works in other countries, but in Canada we have regulatory bodies ("Colleges") that professionals must register with. The purpose of the College is to protect the public from harm. They do this by only registering people who meet professional standards - i.e., someone who has education and training. They can also revoke licenses if professionals malpractice.
So: Tip 1 - always work with someone who is registered with a college.
I'm doing a MD-PhD program (well, sort of - long story) ... My specialty is exercise, health behaviour, and psychology. I can tell you that there is a big difference in training between someone who had a 4-year kinesiology degree and someone with a weekend personal trainer workshop. For one: the kin graduate will never admit to being a dietician. They might give general tips, but will refer you to another professional if you need more extensive help.
Education isn't a 100% guarantee of expertise ... Doctors are VERY poorly trained in exercise science, yet they're expected to counsel people.
... But, at least if you're dealing with a registered health professional, you have a legitimate body to complain to.1
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 426 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions