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Building muscle on a deficit
annaskiski
Posts: 1,212 Member
Ok, so I know I'm entering the lion's den, but I am really curious.
We all know the principle of CICO. Cut calories and you force your body to burn fat stores to make up for the body's requirements.
Add cardio, body's requirements increase, burn more fat stores.
Why do we claim that we can't build muscle on a deficit. (assuming that a person has fat stores to burn.)
Shouldn't a progressive weight program tax the muscles enough that the body would respond by burning more fat stores (just like cardio) to build muscle?
Please don't respond with 'can't build muscle on a deficit'. I'd like some good studies if available.
ETA: I didn't mean to imply 'only studies', but I'm an engineer, not a biologist, so if someone would explain the mechanics of why this would be true, I'd appreciate it.
We all know the principle of CICO. Cut calories and you force your body to burn fat stores to make up for the body's requirements.
Add cardio, body's requirements increase, burn more fat stores.
Why do we claim that we can't build muscle on a deficit. (assuming that a person has fat stores to burn.)
Shouldn't a progressive weight program tax the muscles enough that the body would respond by burning more fat stores (just like cardio) to build muscle?
Please don't respond with 'can't build muscle on a deficit'. I'd like some good studies if available.
ETA: I didn't mean to imply 'only studies', but I'm an engineer, not a biologist, so if someone would explain the mechanics of why this would be true, I'd appreciate it.
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Replies
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Many of us point out that someone new to lifting, someone obese, and someone returning to lifting after time off will gain lean mass in a deficit. I can't find it right now, but there's a study out there done on athletes who gained muscle in a deficit (the sports were gymnastics, football, hockey, track, shooting, and some others I can't remember).
The reason that a blanket statement of "You can't gain muscle while in a deficit" is states is often because someone states they're not losing weight or has gained and people are quick to say that it's probably muscle. Seeing as how when conditions are perfect a man will gain about 2 pounds per month and a woman will gain about 1 it is highly unlikely someone who is eating at a deficit is gaining enough muscle to offset fat loss and end up with no loss or a gain because they are likely to gain less than half of that.
In that case both people are technically wrong. Muscle can be gained, but the person is not likely to be in an actual deficit if they aren't losing weight over an extended period of time.6 -
I'd like to follow this thread..
I'd love to read real studies about it as well.0 -
Many of us point out that someone new to lifting, someone obese, and someone returning to lifting after time off will gain lean mass in a deficit. I can't find it right now, but there's a study out there done on athletes who gained muscle in a deficit (the sports were gymnastics, football, hockey, track, shooting, and some others I can't remember).
The reason that a blanket statement of "You can't gain muscle while in a deficit" is states is often because someone states they're not losing weight or has gained and people are quick to say that it's probably muscle. Seeing as how when conditions are perfect a man will gain about 2 pounds per month and a woman will gain about 1 it is highly unlikely someone who is eating at a deficit is gaining enough muscle to offset fat loss and end up with no loss or a gain because they are likely to gain less than half of that.
In that case both people are technically wrong. Muscle can be gained, but the person is not likely to be in an actual deficit if they aren't losing weight over an extended period of time.
Any link to these studies? I'd love to read them.0 -
Many of us point out that someone new to lifting, someone obese, and someone returning to lifting after time off will gain lean mass in a deficit. I can't find it right now, but there's a study out there done on athletes who gained muscle in a deficit (the sports were gymnastics, football, hockey, track, shooting, and some others I can't remember).
The reason that a blanket statement of "You can't gain muscle while in a deficit" is states is often because someone states they're not losing weight or has gained and people are quick to say that it's probably muscle. Seeing as how when conditions are perfect a man will gain about 2 pounds per month and a woman will gain about 1 it is highly unlikely someone who is eating at a deficit is gaining enough muscle to offset fat loss and end up with no loss or a gain because they are likely to gain less than half of that.
In that case both people are technically wrong. Muscle can be gained, but the person is not likely to be in an actual deficit if they aren't losing weight over an extended period of time.
Any link to these studies? I'd love to read them.
There are a few linked here.
https://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/0 -
Many of us point out that someone new to lifting, someone obese, and someone returning to lifting after time off will gain lean mass in a deficit. I can't find it right now, but there's a study out there done on athletes who gained muscle in a deficit (the sports were gymnastics, football, hockey, track, shooting, and some others I can't remember).
The reason that a blanket statement of "You can't gain muscle while in a deficit" is states is often because someone states they're not losing weight or has gained and people are quick to say that it's probably muscle. Seeing as how when conditions are perfect a man will gain about 2 pounds per month and a woman will gain about 1 it is highly unlikely someone who is eating at a deficit is gaining enough muscle to offset fat loss and end up with no loss or a gain because they are likely to gain less than half of that.
In that case both people are technically wrong. Muscle can be gained, but the person is not likely to be in an actual deficit if they aren't losing weight over an extended period of time.
Any link to these studies? I'd love to read them.
There are a few linked here.
https://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
Thanks. This actually explains so many things.0 -
You can build some muscle with noob gains, particularly if you're over fat. That said, when you are in a deficit, you are in a catabolic state. Building significant anything...muscle or fat requires you to be in an anabolic state. Essentially, you can't make something from nothing. If you're a noob, you can actually make some pretty rapid gains early, but they taper off quickly...you're not going to be piling on a substantial amount of muscle mass...if you could do that, bodybuilders wouldn't bother with bulking and cutting cycles.
When you're burning body fat as fuel, that energy is going more to basic functions that are priority...building muscle isn't a priority for your body when you are under feeding...i.e dieting.
http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/93096276 -
I'm one of those people who post negatively about muscle gains on deficit caloric intake. I think if someone is serious about getting muscles, then a little dietary research to find out the best way to eat for good gains and a weight lifting program is the best way to go about it.1
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Some good reads, thank you0
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I highly recommend reading Tom Venuto's book "Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle". It's packed with muscle building information..and he basically states you should eat more (of the right foods) to lose more weight - especially protein. It was an eye-opening book for me, as I'm a child of the 80s and I was taught that to lose weight you need to eat less!1
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Impossible long term to gain muscle on a caloric deficit0
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Being in a deficit doesn't mean you are in a catabolic state 24 x 7 - your body is cycling between anabolic and catabolic states all the time whether you are in a net deficit or net surplus.
Have a think.....
If you are at TDEE + 1 calorie or TDEE - 1 calorie your whole physiology doesn't change from "oh goody anabolic, I can build muscle" to "oh noes, I'm catabolic, I can't build muscle".
Your body doesn't actually measure or know what your calorie balance is and there certainly isn't a switch that turns off the ability to build muscle.
There's loads of so called outliers that can and do add some muscle in a deficit and it's far from limited to just people new to lifting.
If you want an interesting aside everyone who is successfully recomping without changing weight is actually in an energy deficit.
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@usmcmpMany of us point out that someone new to lifting, someone obese, and someone returning to lifting after time off will gain lean mass in a deficit. I can't find it right now, but there's a study out there done on athletes who gained muscle in a deficit (the sports were gymnastics, football, hockey, track, shooting, and some others I can't remember).
This one?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21558571
Maybe of more interest for the general population is the overweight Policeman study...
Overweight (26% body fat) police officers starting a weight training program lost 9.3 pounds of fat and gained 8.8 pounds of lean body mass in 12 weeks.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/108384632 -
@usmcmpMany of us point out that someone new to lifting, someone obese, and someone returning to lifting after time off will gain lean mass in a deficit. I can't find it right now, but there's a study out there done on athletes who gained muscle in a deficit (the sports were gymnastics, football, hockey, track, shooting, and some others I can't remember).
This one?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21558571
Maybe of more interest for the general population is the overweight Policeman study...
Overweight (26% body fat) police officers starting a weight training program lost 9.3 pounds of fat and gained 8.8 pounds of lean body mass in 12 weeks.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463
Nope, not that one. I'll come back and post if I can find it. I do like the police study, but they didn't differentiate that lean mass means water weight as well as muscle. It's still lean mass it's just not muscle.0 -
how muscle are we talking about0
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much0
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Easy, just take steroids.0
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lol
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You can't gain pounds of muscle in a deficit. Absolutely no way possible.0
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Strength gains are possible in people new to lifting - regardless of their fitness otherwise - by CNS adaptation.
There's not a nerve fiber to trigger every muscle cell contraction individually; they're done in bundles of muscle cells to a single nerve impulse. By getting under a barbell you're training the CNS that yes, MORE muscle fibers need to be firing (contracting) to move this heavy weight. This CNS training happens whether you're eating less, more, or at your TDEE.
Whether you can put on muscle mass while losing weight is a separate question, and partly dependent on how overfat you are compared to a normal body fat percentage. Body fat is fuel, and in obese people can be used to build muscle despite cutting calories. The science is a bit unclear on it.1 -
CipherZero wrote: »Strength gains are possible in people new to lifting - regardless of their fitness otherwise - by CNS adaptation.
There's not a nerve fiber to trigger every muscle cell contraction individually; they're done in bundles of muscle cells to a single nerve impulse. By getting under a barbell you're training the CNS that yes, MORE muscle fibers need to be firing (contracting) to move this heavy weight. This CNS training happens whether you're eating less, more, or at your TDEE.
Whether you can put on muscle mass while losing weight is a separate question, and partly dependent on how overfat you are compared to a normal body fat percentage. Body fat is fuel, and in obese people can be used to build muscle despite cutting calories. The science is a bit unclear on it.
from what I read in obese people there is more insulin being made and something about possible insulin resistance in those who arent diabetic) and that helps build muscle.I also read that those who have high LDL cholesterol can also build muscle faster and easier than those at a normal cholesterol level. not sure how accurate the study was. I need to find it again though.0 -
gemstoneisland wrote: »I highly recommend reading Tom Venuto's book "Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle". It's packed with muscle building information..and he basically states you should eat more (of the right foods) to lose more weight - especially protein. It was an eye-opening book for me, as I'm a child of the 80s and I was taught that to lose weight you need to eat less!
I've read his book, and he emphatically says to count calories and cut if you're not losing. I'm not sure how you got a different message. I actually thought he had a really long-winded way of saying CICO- watch macros.
Most of the book was about "I'm going to tell you a secret that will change your life" - literally chapters of this...
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To the people saying the best way to build muscle is eat above your TDEE, really no one is arguing differently.
I was just curious about the people (like one who keeps popping up here) who say its absolutely impossible to build muscle while on a deficit.
It just seems logical to me that as a few people have stated above "Body fat is fuel, and in obese people can be used to build muscle despite cutting calories".0 -
Nothing exciting to contribute, but I'm glad you posted this, OP. This has always piqued my curiosity and I'm always looking for research.1
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I do believe if you have an abundant amount of fat muscle can be built on a deficit. Fat being stored energy it's only logical0
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gemstoneisland wrote: »I highly recommend reading Tom Venuto's book "Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle". It's packed with muscle building information..and he basically states you should eat more (of the right foods) to lose more weight - especially protein. It was an eye-opening book for me, as I'm a child of the 80s and I was taught that to lose weight you need to eat less!
This book is absolute garbage!
Noob gains, muscle memory or anabolics aside, I don't think anyone will build as much muscle as they would in that time compared to if they ate at maintenance or in a deficit.2
This discussion has been closed.
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