Vegan vs Paleo perspectives on oil?
sarahspractice
Posts: 19 Member
So, I've been reading a lot about oil. Mainly because I am cutting back on carbs as I have had issues with insulin resistance (resulting for weird things as a teenager, I am a healthy weight, eat well and exercise regularly NOW). Protein everyone seems to agree on amounts, even if they dispute where you should get it from... I'm an IBS super sensitive gut person who cannot tolerate legumes, so I eat meat, sue me. On the other hand, I don't eat any dairy or eggs as I cannot tolerate them. Carbs and fats seem to be interchangeable in the way they are discussed and used in diet and lifestyle. Maybe I'm over simplifying but... Vegan is high carb low fat, while Paleo is low carb high fat... Not to pick on anyone, but just to choose opposites on a spectrum. So what is the deal? Is it just that some of us are better HC LF and others LC HF and we just need to work this out individually OR is there actual science in the ratios which are beneficial? Sorry if this is a stupid question but it bothers me and I look forward to your answers.
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It is hard to tell what is science and what is alternative science sometimes but it seems that both have their pros and cons. For you and your more complicated needs I'd recommend a dietitian who can custom a healthy diet that suits your needs.1
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I think vegan and paleo are more about what foods you eat than the macros. As a general rule, vegans are higher carb than paleo but I have known LCHF vegans and vegetarians, and paleo could be kept higher carb if you preferred that.
The stats that I have seen seem to show that over 50% of people have some form of insulin resistance (PCOS, NAFLD, T2D, prediabetes, Alzheimer's)or CAD. Those people will do better on a LCHF diet, although a good sized portion can make a moderate carb diet work if they lose enough weight to reverse their condition. That only works if the IR or CAD was caused by the weight gain, and it sometimes is not.
From what I have seen, about 10% of people thrive on a high carb diet. These people are very insulin sensitive, and I wish that I was one.
The other 40% or so seem to do fine on a moderate carb diet. This is excluding those with IR who are doing okay on a moderate carb diet. My only problem with this group is that their status may change as they age. IR becomes common with age. Among 20 year olds, it is still unusual but for 70 year olds it is the majority.0 -
It depends on the individual. My cholesterol was high on paleo which is higher in fat. So 2 yrs ago, I started doing a plant based diet (95% vegan as I occasionally eat meat). I keep it around 70-75% carbs, ~15% fat, ~15% protein. This has returned my cholesterol to normal. I've been maintaining 115-120 lbs for over 1 yr and my insulin sensitivity is great per my A1c test.
For some people, high fat also increases insulin resistance, so if you've reduced carbs and still continue having insulin resistance despite being active and at normal weight, then I would consider reducing the oils/fats in your diet and retesting to see if it has a positive effect. Check nutritionfacts.org.
Also, vegan is not necessarily low fat if someone eats lots of nuts, avocados, oils, vegan cheeses, chocolates, ice cream or other vegan junk foods.3 -
I think vegan and paleo are more about what foods you eat than the macros. As a general rule, vegans are higher carb than paleo but I have known LCHF vegans and vegetarians, and paleo could be kept higher carb if you preferred that.
I agree with this.
I've known people focused on athletic performance and body building who specifically made an effort to eat higher carb on paleo, and paleo is popular with crossfitters who often do 40-30-30.
Similarly, vegan need not be high carb--some make an effort to keep protein and fat up, although some are anti one or both (or anti above a certain amount).
I don't agree with the numbers given--a huge number of blue zone and traditional diets are higher carb, so the idea that only a small number of people do well on high carb and that 50% should be LCHF seems unlikely to me and not based on the evidence -- people in these cultures don't have high levels of IR--but the bigger point is try out different macros and see what feels good for you. My personal opinion is that for the vast majority of people what foods you choose within the macros (eating a healthful diet) and getting enough of everything (specifically your essentially fatty acids/healthy fats and protein and the micronutrients that are found often in whole food carb sources) are useful.
Both paleo and vegan advocates make health claims about the benefits of cutting out the specific foods they cut out that I don't think are accurate for most, but finding what works for you is a good idea.
On the title of this thread, OP -- oil is a separate issue. Did you mean fat or forget to add part of the question? Not trying to give you a hard time, I just expected something on the benefits of cutting out oil (as some WFPB people are into, by no means all) or specific oils.1 -
Others have already pointed this out, but veganism isn't specifically low fat. There are vegans who eat low fat, vegans who eat moderate fat, and vegans who eat high fat. I've been vegan for ten years and I never feel good when I try to eat low fat, so I don't. You don't have to do high carbohydrate either -- it's a completely independent choice.
While there are vegans who avoid oil (just as there are non-vegans who avoid or reduce it), it isn't part of veganism itself. Many vegans include oil in their diet.2 -
I don't really think there's one optimal diet for all humanity. We're omnivores, and we're adaptable. We've thrived worldwide on an incredible array of foods and traditional diets. We're now fortunate enough to live in a time where we have unprecedented access to foods and choice, and can make food decisions on any criteria we want.
Science has certainly not figured out the perfect diet. We all muddle along, and there's a great range of foods that can provide what we need.3 -
IMHO Paleo is the way we are meant to eat (backed up by my doctor). It's also a lifestyle, not a diet. Plenty of moderate cardio, lifting heavy things and as organic as possible on the food. I can only judge from my results.....ulcerative colitis GONE, acid reflux GONE, blood results termed 'perfect' at the last check up. Best of all I'm down 46 lbs, stronger than I've ever been in my life....and never hungry. My appetite is actually decreased. I tried the Vegan thing and was miserably hungry and sick to death of counting calories (No disrespect AT ALL to the veggie folks out there) I lost very little weight. I consume a lot of healthy oils (remember you only adsorb 10% of these oils vs 85% of the bad stuff).The magic bullet is the carb intake.....over 125 and you're in for weight gain. Personally I keep it at approx. 80 g -100 g per day to maintain and 40 - 50 g when I'm trying to shed pounds. Easy peasy...and omg.....bacon everywhere!! Works for me
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(1) On what does your doctor base the claim that paleo is the way we are "meant" to eat (vs. many other doctors, nutrition experts, and a huge number of cultures that have good health statistics eating differently)?
(2) What supports the claim that people in general gain weight eating over 125 g of carbs?
(3) Whose definition of paleo are you using and why is that better than other definitions (that say nothing about weights, for example)? Don't get me wrong, I think weights are great and recommend doing strength training of some sort, but I hardly see how that's specifically paleo and plenty of people do paleo and don't do any particular exercise program.
(4) How is bacon paleo? Oils? What do you mean you only absorb 10% of "these oils" vs. "the bad stuff." Where does olive oil fit in?
(5) How is organic paleo? Isn't paleo pre farming? I mean, I know, I know, I did paleo for a bit too until I realized that my diet would be (for me) healthier eating legumes, dairy, and some whole grains, and that not eating those things did me no particular good. I also (for ethical and taste reasons) get my meat and eggs and in-season produce (and some dairy, I should be better about this) from local farms, and so my beef is grass-fed, etc. But that's not actually paleo, it's part of a farming culture, more like what my grandparents and great-grandparents would have eaten than someone in the paleo era.4 -
1) I have no idea what my doctor was basing his opinion on, it was a casual conversation but I suppose he based it on his medical knowledge. He did mention that processed foods and crop grains were not what our ancient ancestors were living/filling their diet with, and that corn oil/syrup in particular has done nothing but to introduce insidious weight gain. His words "This is how we were meant to eat" He also mentioned that a number of his Inuit patients literally get ill (increased cardiovascular problems, diabetes etc) when they stop eating whale blubber, and that it was an essential part of their diet.
2) Cahill 1965, and Taubes 2007 - two studies which have been adopted by most of the medical community. Google will provide you with the complete documentation, but to sum it up carbs spike insulin which spikes fat gain. Most of our carbs should come from vegetation, which will provide necessary fiber and nutrients as well. I eat a TON of veg.
3) Mark Sisson & Rob Wolff to name two. Paleo is a lifestyle that encompasses mind, body & soul. Being truly Paleo isn't just about food. Low impact cardio, time for recreation, and good sleeping habits are also part of the lifestyle. The plenty of people you mention that don't exercise and 'lift heavy things' are missing out on all the benefits, but different strokes for different folks I guess, and if it's working for them it's all good.
4) I eat nitrate free organically raised bacon/meat. Not perfect I realize but it's also limited. My comment was meant rather tongue in cheek. My previous diets forbid bacon so it was heaven to have some a couple of times a week. Olive oil, animal fat & nut oils are the same - 10% absorption.
5) Our Paleo ancestors ate nothing but organic vegetation and yes it was pre farming. They picked it as it was available and in season. Unfortunately I cannot hunt down my own meat so have to depend on buying from as natural a source as I can find. I should mention that I add the very occasional legume in my diet in the form of lentils or quinoa, but again it's rare as it can trigger colitis attacks. Unfortunate because these two items are chock full of iron & fiber, and great for the occasional 're carb'. I have these legumes 2-3 times a year.
On a personal level, once I increased my healthy oils, dropped my carbs to the numbers I mentioned, increased my vegetable intake and re-incorporated meat into my diet I saw drastic change (for the better) in my blood tests, weight loss was amazing, energy up and strength increased as well....not to mention the health issues clearing. Again this is all IMHO. 0 -
Pathmonkey wrote: »1) I have no idea what my doctor was basing his opinion on, it was a casual conversation but I suppose he based it on his medical knowledge. He did mention that processed foods and crop grains were not what our ancient ancestors were living/filling their diet with, and that corn oil/syrup in particular has done nothing but to introduce insidious weight gain. His words "This is how we were meant to eat" He also mentioned that a number of his Inuit patients literally get ill (increased cardiovascular problems, diabetes etc) when they stop eating whale blubber, and that it was an essential part of their diet.
2) Cahill 1965, and Taubes 2007 - two studies which have been adopted by most of the medical community. Google will provide you with the complete documentation, but to sum it up carbs spike insulin which spikes fat gain. Most of our carbs should come from vegetation, which will provide necessary fiber and nutrients as well. I eat a TON of veg.
3) Mark Sisson & Rob Wolff to name two. Paleo is a lifestyle that encompasses mind, body & soul. Being truly Paleo isn't just about food. Low impact cardio, time for recreation, and good sleeping habits are also part of the lifestyle. The plenty of people you mention that don't exercise and 'lift heavy things' are missing out on all the benefits, but different strokes for different folks I guess, and if it's working for them it's all good.
4) I eat nitrate free organically raised bacon/meat. Not perfect I realize but it's also limited. My comment was meant rather tongue in cheek. My previous diets forbid bacon so it was heaven to have some a couple of times a week. Olive oil, animal fat & nut oils are the same - 10% absorption.
5) Our Paleo ancestors ate nothing but organic vegetation and yes it was pre farming. They picked it as it was available and in season. Unfortunately I cannot hunt down my own meat so have to depend on buying from as natural a source as I can find. I should mention that I add the very occasional legume in my diet in the form of lentils or quinoa, but again it's rare as it can trigger colitis attacks. Unfortunate because these two items are chock full of iron & fiber, and great for the occasional 're carb'. I have these legumes 2-3 times a year.
On a personal level, once I increased my healthy oils, dropped my carbs to the numbers I mentioned, increased my vegetable intake and re-incorporated meat into my diet I saw drastic change (for the better) in my blood tests, weight loss was amazing, energy up and strength increased as well....not to mention the health issues clearing. Again this is all IMHO.
Does your doctor have any special training in nutrition? Many doctors don't and they often aren't a good source for nutritional information. If someone ever told me I was "meant" to eat a certain way, I would ask "By whom?" It's not a very clear statement. If he means that our species evolved without eating processed foods or crop grains, I suppose that's true. We evolved without benefit of a lot of things, however, and I'm assuming that he takes advantage of those things. I'm assuming that his medical practice uses many objects, substances, and techniques that were not available to our ancestors.
I think it's bizarre to object to something simply because our ancestors didn't have it or use it.
The 2007 Gary Taubes work you're referring to is "Good Calories, Bad Calories." It's not a study, it's a book by a journalist.
Also, quinoa isn't a legume.5 -
Sissons is not Paleo, it's ancestral but different from paleo. Sissons calls his version Primal (I think dairy is the difference).
FWIW I don't adhere to the Primal/Paleo thing but I am sympathetic to it all - not quite a fan but, generally interested. But even with that background/position I think Mark Sissons is often guilty of cherry picking his data and Taubes is a bit of a nutter.0 -
See, this is just proof to me that there isn't one "right diet". It will all be something new by 5 years from now. So much "truth" is just marketing and feelings.
People should do what works for them, but if there was really only one right diet, we'd be like pandas or koalas and live on that.2 -
Pathmonkey wrote: »1) I have no idea what my doctor was basing his opinion on, it was a casual conversation but I suppose he based it on his medical knowledge.
So maybe nothing, and doctors aren't generally experts on nutrition, let alone how we are MEANT to eat. My doctor does not promote paleo, and it has done generally poorly on studies of diets. I'm more friendly to it than that, though, as I do think it's one of many different ways of eating that can be quite healthful if you do it right.Cahill 1965, and Taubes 2007 - two studies which have been adopted by most of the medical community.
What janejellyroll said, but you have provided nothing that shows you gain over 125 g carbs (I know Taubes has nothing to prove that, as I've followed him some). I've also lost weight when eating more than 125 g of carbs so, well, I know it's nonsense.to sum it up carbs spike insulin which spikes fat gain.
If you think this means you gain in a deficit or at maintenance because of eating more than 125 g of carbs, you don't understand how it works.3) Mark Sisson & Rob Wolff to name two.
I had a guess that you were a Sisson follower.
Paleo is a diet that says no grains, legumes, or dairy (although I know that Sisson has his own thing and even sells his own products, LOL). The claim is that this is how people ate in paleo times, although it seems that's not really true. Claiming it is a lifestyle is cute, but just shows people can define anything to mean anything. I think weight training plus some cardio (probably no need to go nuts with it unless you enjoy training for stuff) plus healthy eating plus adequate sleep and stress reduction are all important. I don't claim that people doing these things, which are all quite sensible advice, are following my personal lifestyle program, so it's weird to claim they are part of being paleo. But they are things we can agree on. (I do do more cardio, though, since I enjoy training for cardio goals.)4) I eat nitrate free organically raised bacon/meat. Not perfect I realize but it's also limited. My comment was meant rather tongue in cheek. My previous diets forbid bacon so it was heaven to have some a couple of times a week. Olive oil, animal fat & nut oils are the same - 10% absorption.
Interesting. None of my diets have forbidden bacon -- maybe you are inclined toward restrictive diets?
My point was simply that obviously paleo folks not only wouldn't have eaten bread, but that they weren't chowing down bacon either. It's processed, also (as are oils). Loren Cordain is anti bacon (not sure about Wolff or Sisson -- I'm sure Sisson is good with it if he's come up with his own bacon to be selling).
Are you claiming we only get 10% of the calories from nut and olive oils and animal fats? On what is that based? I'm reasonably sure it's false.5) Our Paleo ancestors ate nothing but organic vegetation
They didn't have organic farming in paleo days. Organic farming and plants that grow wild aren't actually the same, you know -- calling wild plants "organic vegetation" doesn't mean anything.I have these legumes 2-3 times a year.
Legumes are forbidden on paleo, of course (and what janejellyroll said). Now 2-3 times per year isn't enough to say it's not paleo to eat them, IMO, but why would quinoa or legumes be bad for the rest of us without your colitis issues to eat? Why are we not MEANT to eat those foods, or whole grains, or dairy, etc.?On a personal level, once I increased my healthy oils, dropped my carbs to the numbers I mentioned, increased my vegetable intake and re-incorporated meat into my diet I saw drastic change (for the better) in my blood tests, weight loss was amazing, energy up and strength increased as well....not to mention the health issues clearing. Again this is all IMHO.
I think if you improved your diet, that's good, and it's not surprising that could help (just losing weight often helps too). I've never had bad test results or health issues, but I too try to eat healthfully, and have always eaten lots of vegetables, etc. My question is given that why is it bad to eat more than 125 g of carbs or whole grains or legumes or dairy or, heck, to not eat meat? I have not yet decided that it's for me, but many people have excellent health results and enjoy eating 100% plant-based diets, for example. Yet you are claiming your way of eating is how we are MEANT to eat and other healthful diets are not (or are bad for us).3 -
Pathmonkey wrote: »IMHO Paleo is the way we are meant to eat (backed up by my doctor). It's also a lifestyle, not a diet. Plenty of moderate cardio, lifting heavy things and as organic as possible on the food. I can only judge from my results.....ulcerative colitis GONE, acid reflux GONE, blood results termed 'perfect' at the last check up. Best of all I'm down 46 lbs, stronger than I've ever been in my life....and never hungry. My appetite is actually decreased. I tried the Vegan thing and was miserably hungry and sick to death of counting calories (No disrespect AT ALL to the veggie folks out there) I lost very little weight. I consume a lot of healthy oils (remember you only adsorb 10% of these oils vs 85% of the bad stuff). The magic bullet is the carb intake.....over 125 and you're in for weight gain. Personally I keep it at approx. 80 g -100 g per day to maintain and 40 - 50 g when I'm trying to shed pounds. Easy peasy...and omg.....bacon everywhere!! Works for me
Whereas I developed some annoying health issues and found myself on the slippery slope to orthorexia during my short lived paleo experiment. It also was very cost prohibitive, to the point where I stopped paying some of our bills, just so I could come up with the money to buy the 'approved' foods. Been there, done that and definitely have no interest in trying that train wreck again
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I think Sissons is now in favour of limited legumes. Kind of making it up as he goes along,
I think.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Pathmonkey wrote: »1) I have no idea what my doctor was basing his opinion on, it was a casual conversation but I suppose he based it on his medical knowledge.
So maybe nothing, and doctors aren't generally experts on nutrition, let alone how we are MEANT to eat. My doctor does not promote paleo, and it has done generally poorly on studies of diets. I'm more friendly to it than that, though, as I do think it's one of many different ways of eating that can be quite healthful if you do it right.Cahill 1965, and Taubes 2007 - two studies which have been adopted by most of the medical community.
What janejellyroll said, but you have provided nothing that shows you gain over 125 g carbs (I know Taubes has nothing to prove that, as I've followed him some). I've also lost weight when eating more than 125 g of carbs so, well, I know it's nonsense.to sum it up carbs spike insulin which spikes fat gain.
If you think this means you gain in a deficit or at maintenance because of eating more than 125 g of carbs, you don't understand how it works.3) Mark Sisson & Rob Wolff to name two.
I had a guess that you were a Sisson follower.
Paleo is a diet that says no grains, legumes, or dairy (although I know that Sisson has his own thing and even sells his own products, LOL). The claim is that this is how people ate in paleo times, although it seems that's not really true. Claiming it is a lifestyle is cute, but just shows people can define anything to mean anything. I think weight training plus some cardio (probably no need to go nuts with it unless you enjoy training for stuff) plus healthy eating plus adequate sleep and stress reduction are all important. I don't claim that people doing these things, which are all quite sensible advice, are following my personal lifestyle program, so it's weird to claim they are part of being paleo. But they are things we can agree on. (I do do more cardio, though, since I enjoy training for cardio goals.)4) I eat nitrate free organically raised bacon/meat. Not perfect I realize but it's also limited. My comment was meant rather tongue in cheek. My previous diets forbid bacon so it was heaven to have some a couple of times a week. Olive oil, animal fat & nut oils are the same - 10% absorption.
Interesting. None of my diets have forbidden bacon -- maybe you are inclined toward restrictive diets?
My point was simply that obviously paleo folks not only wouldn't have eaten bread, but that they weren't chowing down bacon either. It's processed, also (as are oils). Loren Cordain is anti bacon (not sure about Wolff or Sisson -- I'm sure Sisson is good with it if he's come up with his own bacon to be selling).
Are you claiming we only get 10% of the calories from nut and olive oils and animal fats? On what is that based? I'm reasonably sure it's false.5) Our Paleo ancestors ate nothing but organic vegetation
They didn't have organic farming in paleo days. Organic farming and plants that grow wild aren't actually the same, you know -- calling wild plants "organic vegetation" doesn't mean anything.I have these legumes 2-3 times a year.
Legumes are forbidden on paleo, of course (and what janejellyroll said). Now 2-3 times per year isn't enough to say it's not paleo to eat them, IMO, but why would quinoa or legumes be bad for the rest of us without your colitis issues to eat? Why are we not MEANT to eat those foods, or whole grains, or dairy, etc.?On a personal level, once I increased my healthy oils, dropped my carbs to the numbers I mentioned, increased my vegetable intake and re-incorporated meat into my diet I saw drastic change (for the better) in my blood tests, weight loss was amazing, energy up and strength increased as well....not to mention the health issues clearing. Again this is all IMHO.
I think if you improved your diet, that's good, and it's not surprising that could help (just losing weight often helps too). I've never had bad test results or health issues, but I too try to eat healthfully, and have always eaten lots of vegetables, etc. My question is given that why is it bad to eat more than 125 g of carbs or whole grains or legumes or dairy or, heck, to not eat meat? I have not yet decided that it's for me, but many people have excellent health results and enjoy eating 100% plant-based diets, for example. Yet you are claiming your way of eating is how we are MEANT to eat and other healthful diets are not (or are bad for us).
This is purely anecdotal, but I virtually always eat over 125 grams of carbohydrates per day and I am maintaining my weight. Some days I eat as many as 250-300 (the higher end would be more active days, usually). I can't think of any reason why eating higher carbohydrates would cause someone to gain weight (assuming, of course, it didn't put someone over their calories to maintain).3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Pathmonkey wrote: »1) I have no idea what my doctor was basing his opinion on, it was a casual conversation but I suppose he based it on his medical knowledge.
So maybe nothing, and doctors aren't generally experts on nutrition, let alone how we are MEANT to eat. My doctor does not promote paleo, and it has done generally poorly on studies of diets. I'm more friendly to it than that, though, as I do think it's one of many different ways of eating that can be quite healthful if you do it right.Cahill 1965, and Taubes 2007 - two studies which have been adopted by most of the medical community.
What janejellyroll said, but you have provided nothing that shows you gain over 125 g carbs (I know Taubes has nothing to prove that, as I've followed him some). I've also lost weight when eating more than 125 g of carbs so, well, I know it's nonsense.to sum it up carbs spike insulin which spikes fat gain.
If you think this means you gain in a deficit or at maintenance because of eating more than 125 g of carbs, you don't understand how it works.3) Mark Sisson & Rob Wolff to name two.
I had a guess that you were a Sisson follower.
Paleo is a diet that says no grains, legumes, or dairy (although I know that Sisson has his own thing and even sells his own products, LOL). The claim is that this is how people ate in paleo times, although it seems that's not really true. Claiming it is a lifestyle is cute, but just shows people can define anything to mean anything. I think weight training plus some cardio (probably no need to go nuts with it unless you enjoy training for stuff) plus healthy eating plus adequate sleep and stress reduction are all important. I don't claim that people doing these things, which are all quite sensible advice, are following my personal lifestyle program, so it's weird to claim they are part of being paleo. But they are things we can agree on. (I do do more cardio, though, since I enjoy training for cardio goals.)4) I eat nitrate free organically raised bacon/meat. Not perfect I realize but it's also limited. My comment was meant rather tongue in cheek. My previous diets forbid bacon so it was heaven to have some a couple of times a week. Olive oil, animal fat & nut oils are the same - 10% absorption.
Interesting. None of my diets have forbidden bacon -- maybe you are inclined toward restrictive diets?
My point was simply that obviously paleo folks not only wouldn't have eaten bread, but that they weren't chowing down bacon either. It's processed, also (as are oils). Loren Cordain is anti bacon (not sure about Wolff or Sisson -- I'm sure Sisson is good with it if he's come up with his own bacon to be selling).
Are you claiming we only get 10% of the calories from nut and olive oils and animal fats? On what is that based? I'm reasonably sure it's false.5) Our Paleo ancestors ate nothing but organic vegetation
They didn't have organic farming in paleo days. Organic farming and plants that grow wild aren't actually the same, you know -- calling wild plants "organic vegetation" doesn't mean anything.I have these legumes 2-3 times a year.
Legumes are forbidden on paleo, of course (and what janejellyroll said). Now 2-3 times per year isn't enough to say it's not paleo to eat them, IMO, but why would quinoa or legumes be bad for the rest of us without your colitis issues to eat? Why are we not MEANT to eat those foods, or whole grains, or dairy, etc.?On a personal level, once I increased my healthy oils, dropped my carbs to the numbers I mentioned, increased my vegetable intake and re-incorporated meat into my diet I saw drastic change (for the better) in my blood tests, weight loss was amazing, energy up and strength increased as well....not to mention the health issues clearing. Again this is all IMHO.
I think if you improved your diet, that's good, and it's not surprising that could help (just losing weight often helps too). I've never had bad test results or health issues, but I too try to eat healthfully, and have always eaten lots of vegetables, etc. My question is given that why is it bad to eat more than 125 g of carbs or whole grains or legumes or dairy or, heck, to not eat meat? I have not yet decided that it's for me, but many people have excellent health results and enjoy eating 100% plant-based diets, for example. Yet you are claiming your way of eating is how we are MEANT to eat and other healthful diets are not (or are bad for us).
This is purely anecdotal, but I virtually always eat over 125 grams of carbohydrates per day and I am maintaining my weight. Some days I eat as many as 250-300 (the higher end would be more active days, usually). I can't think of any reason why eating higher carbohydrates would cause someone to gain weight (assuming, of course, it didn't put someone over their calories to maintain).
Yep, I eat a higher carb breakdown (whenever I care to track macros I'm usually around 175g-200g), and I have a current bmi of around 20. My weight management comes from me controlling my calorie intake, simple as that
eta: clarifying that I'm not a vegan/vegetarian, just a lover of carbs lol.1 -
crzycatlady1 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Pathmonkey wrote: »1) I have no idea what my doctor was basing his opinion on, it was a casual conversation but I suppose he based it on his medical knowledge.
So maybe nothing, and doctors aren't generally experts on nutrition, let alone how we are MEANT to eat. My doctor does not promote paleo, and it has done generally poorly on studies of diets. I'm more friendly to it than that, though, as I do think it's one of many different ways of eating that can be quite healthful if you do it right.Cahill 1965, and Taubes 2007 - two studies which have been adopted by most of the medical community.
What janejellyroll said, but you have provided nothing that shows you gain over 125 g carbs (I know Taubes has nothing to prove that, as I've followed him some). I've also lost weight when eating more than 125 g of carbs so, well, I know it's nonsense.to sum it up carbs spike insulin which spikes fat gain.
If you think this means you gain in a deficit or at maintenance because of eating more than 125 g of carbs, you don't understand how it works.3) Mark Sisson & Rob Wolff to name two.
I had a guess that you were a Sisson follower.
Paleo is a diet that says no grains, legumes, or dairy (although I know that Sisson has his own thing and even sells his own products, LOL). The claim is that this is how people ate in paleo times, although it seems that's not really true. Claiming it is a lifestyle is cute, but just shows people can define anything to mean anything. I think weight training plus some cardio (probably no need to go nuts with it unless you enjoy training for stuff) plus healthy eating plus adequate sleep and stress reduction are all important. I don't claim that people doing these things, which are all quite sensible advice, are following my personal lifestyle program, so it's weird to claim they are part of being paleo. But they are things we can agree on. (I do do more cardio, though, since I enjoy training for cardio goals.)4) I eat nitrate free organically raised bacon/meat. Not perfect I realize but it's also limited. My comment was meant rather tongue in cheek. My previous diets forbid bacon so it was heaven to have some a couple of times a week. Olive oil, animal fat & nut oils are the same - 10% absorption.
Interesting. None of my diets have forbidden bacon -- maybe you are inclined toward restrictive diets?
My point was simply that obviously paleo folks not only wouldn't have eaten bread, but that they weren't chowing down bacon either. It's processed, also (as are oils). Loren Cordain is anti bacon (not sure about Wolff or Sisson -- I'm sure Sisson is good with it if he's come up with his own bacon to be selling).
Are you claiming we only get 10% of the calories from nut and olive oils and animal fats? On what is that based? I'm reasonably sure it's false.5) Our Paleo ancestors ate nothing but organic vegetation
They didn't have organic farming in paleo days. Organic farming and plants that grow wild aren't actually the same, you know -- calling wild plants "organic vegetation" doesn't mean anything.I have these legumes 2-3 times a year.
Legumes are forbidden on paleo, of course (and what janejellyroll said). Now 2-3 times per year isn't enough to say it's not paleo to eat them, IMO, but why would quinoa or legumes be bad for the rest of us without your colitis issues to eat? Why are we not MEANT to eat those foods, or whole grains, or dairy, etc.?On a personal level, once I increased my healthy oils, dropped my carbs to the numbers I mentioned, increased my vegetable intake and re-incorporated meat into my diet I saw drastic change (for the better) in my blood tests, weight loss was amazing, energy up and strength increased as well....not to mention the health issues clearing. Again this is all IMHO.
I think if you improved your diet, that's good, and it's not surprising that could help (just losing weight often helps too). I've never had bad test results or health issues, but I too try to eat healthfully, and have always eaten lots of vegetables, etc. My question is given that why is it bad to eat more than 125 g of carbs or whole grains or legumes or dairy or, heck, to not eat meat? I have not yet decided that it's for me, but many people have excellent health results and enjoy eating 100% plant-based diets, for example. Yet you are claiming your way of eating is how we are MEANT to eat and other healthful diets are not (or are bad for us).
This is purely anecdotal, but I virtually always eat over 125 grams of carbohydrates per day and I am maintaining my weight. Some days I eat as many as 250-300 (the higher end would be more active days, usually). I can't think of any reason why eating higher carbohydrates would cause someone to gain weight (assuming, of course, it didn't put someone over their calories to maintain).
Yep, I eat a higher carb breakdown (whenever I care to track macros I'm usually around 175g-200g), and I have a current bmi of around 20. My weight management comes from me controlling my calorie intake, simple as that
eta: clarifying that I'm not a vegan/vegetarian, just a lover of carbs lol.
The carb lover tent is a big one, there's room for all sorts of people.
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Holy moley......well folks as I stated, this was my opinion, not advice. Didn't expect to get picked apart for it but whatever. btw, i'm well aware that quinoa isn't a grain Jane. This Paleo thing has been the only thing in the last three years that has worked. All the vegetarian, low cal, high carb, low fat and not one thing worked. This did with some unexpected health benefits along the way. I wasn't about to go into great detail on a public form and honestly didn't expect to have to defend my own personal opinion, but as a cancer survivor I treaded very carefully into any dietary change. It's not just my family doc supporting this, it's also my oncologist, nutritionist, and oncologist/surgeon. I have to assume they know more than all of us put together.0
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Pathmonkey wrote: »Holy moley......well folks as I stated, this was my opinion, not advice. Didn't expect to get picked apart for it but whatever. btw, i'm well aware that quinoa isn't a grain Jane. This Paleo thing has been the only thing in the last three years that has worked. All the vegetarian, low cal, high carb, low fat and not one thing worked. This did with some unexpected health benefits along the way. I wasn't about to go into great detail on a public form and honestly didn't expect to have to defend my own personal opinion, but as a cancer survivor I treaded very carefully into any dietary change. It's not just my family doc supporting this, it's also my oncologist, nutritionist, and oncologist/surgeon. I have to assume they know more than all of us put together.
More likely what your doctors are getting at is an emphasis on whole foods in your diet...not specifically paleo itself...which ironically promotes whole food nutrition and then turns around and demonizes certain whole foods, which is probably my biggest issue with the whole "approved" foods crap.
I eat a primarily whole foods diet...I don't have any kind of special name for it...and I don't have a list of approved and unapproved whole foods...just whole foods...5 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Pathmonkey wrote: »Holy moley......well folks as I stated, this was my opinion, not advice. Didn't expect to get picked apart for it but whatever. btw, i'm well aware that quinoa isn't a grain Jane. This Paleo thing has been the only thing in the last three years that has worked. All the vegetarian, low cal, high carb, low fat and not one thing worked. This did with some unexpected health benefits along the way. I wasn't about to go into great detail on a public form and honestly didn't expect to have to defend my own personal opinion, but as a cancer survivor I treaded very carefully into any dietary change. It's not just my family doc supporting this, it's also my oncologist, nutritionist, and oncologist/surgeon. I have to assume they know more than all of us put together.
More likely what your doctors are getting at is an emphasis on whole foods in your diet...not specifically paleo itself...which ironically promotes whole food nutrition and then turns around and demonizes certain whole foods, which is probably my biggest issue with the whole "approved" foods crap.
I eat a primarily whole foods diet...I don't have any kind of special name for it...and I don't have a list of approved and unapproved whole foods...just whole foods...
Yeah, pretty much this.
Pathmonkey, no one is picking you apart for how you eat, but when you insist that a particular way of eating is how we are MEANT to eat and that other quite healthy ways are not, well, that will get a response.
So often people who claim huge benefits from things like going paleo weren't eating many whole foods or vegetables or a nutrient dense diet before and for some reason the paleo thing operated as an incentive. In other cases they had issues with particular foods (grains/gluten or dairy or the like) that made it particularly good for them, but not generally applicable advice.4 -
Pathmonkey wrote: »Holy moley......well folks as I stated, this was my opinion, not advice. Didn't expect to get picked apart for it but whatever. btw, i'm well aware that quinoa isn't a grain Jane. This Paleo thing has been the only thing in the last three years that has worked. All the vegetarian, low cal, high carb, low fat and not one thing worked. This did with some unexpected health benefits along the way. I wasn't about to go into great detail on a public form and honestly didn't expect to have to defend my own personal opinion, but as a cancer survivor I treaded very carefully into any dietary change. It's not just my family doc supporting this, it's also my oncologist, nutritionist, and oncologist/surgeon. I have to assume they know more than all of us put together.
Nothing wrong with sharing what has worked for you, but when you make a statement like 'Paleo is the way we are meant to eat', that's going to cause some push back, because there's lots of people here who have been tremendously successful with their weight, health and fitness goals, while eating all sorts of different ways. There is no 'one' way-different things work for different people, and the important thing is that we find out what works best for us individually and then run with that 2 -
Just like no one medication will work the same for everyone, neither will one sort of diet. There is no one way we should all be eating and to make claims that there are is going to get a negative response. You are entitled to an opinion but when your opinion offends others they are entitled to tell you.
The thing I like most about this community over other similar ones is that it is safe and supportive. We acknowledge that there are so many successful ways to lose weight and gain health and that one way is not more superior than another, except for us as individuals because it worked for us. Pleaee don't change this with blanket statements of 'paleo is how we are meant to eat.'1 -
Pathmonkey wrote: »Holy moley......well folks as I stated, this was my opinion, not advice. Didn't expect to get picked apart for it but whatever. btw, i'm well aware that quinoa isn't a grain Jane. This Paleo thing has been the only thing in the last three years that has worked. All the vegetarian, low cal, high carb, low fat and not one thing worked. This did with some unexpected health benefits along the way. I wasn't about to go into great detail on a public form and honestly didn't expect to have to defend my own personal opinion, but as a cancer survivor I treaded very carefully into any dietary change. It's not just my family doc supporting this, it's also my oncologist, nutritionist, and oncologist/surgeon. I have to assume they know more than all of us put together.
What people were challenging wasn't your personal opinion, but your statements of fact about the way that humans are meant to eat (as well as some factual errors, like quinoa being a legume).
Of course you can eat whatever you'd like. But when you make statements about how everyone is meant to eat or certain foods being harmful, people may respond to that and discuss whether or not it's factual.2
This discussion has been closed.
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