Recomposition: Maintaining weight while losing fat

BUMP for later reading. Currently on a slow cut after bulking too much.

So in the spirit of lent I am giving up my recomp excuses haha. I already have Strong Lifts at the ready and own all my own equipment (shame on me I know) and will be running it concurrently with my marathon training for the coming race season. I'm even cutting one of my ultra distances and instead running a HM distance on the more technical side to get this done!

A thought that occurred to me last night though, how long would you expect to wait to see visible improvement in a leaner woman (20-sub 20, I'm really garbage at pinning it down)? I know there isn't going to be a hard and fast answer but I was just thinking on it. 6 months? A year+?

JessicaMcB wrote: »

So in the spirit of lent I am giving up my recomp excuses haha. I already have Strong Lifts at the ready and own all my own equipment (shame on me I know) and will be running it concurrently with my marathon training for the coming race season. I'm even cutting one of my ultra distances and instead running a HM distance on the more technical side to get this done!

A thought that occurred to me last night though, how long would you expect to wait to see visible improvement in a leaner woman (20-sub 20, I'm really garbage at pinning it down)? I know there isn't going to be a hard and fast answer but I was just thinking on it. 6 months? A year+?

Ditto's on upper body, as I'll bet you'll have 2 competing workouts for the lower body.

You could have issue of eating enough - likely within the 24 hrs of doing a hard workout running.

I'd suggest that instead of attempting a daily average TDEE eating goal - you'll need to be closer to MFP method - you eat more on the day you do more - but put it after the workout for recovery.

The weekly average TDEE method - same amount eaten daily - is just going to leave some run workout days with a big deficit which will be negative impact to the lifting, and the running recovery.

Shoot, you may even decide to leave the lower body for the endurance cardio, upper body for the lifting.
That way no interference between the workouts, except for potential general tiredness effecting both.

trigden1991 wrote: »

JessicaMcB wrote: »

So in the spirit of lent I am giving up my recomp excuses haha. I already have Strong Lifts at the ready and own all my own equipment (shame on me I know) and will be running it concurrently with my marathon training for the coming race season. I'm even cutting one of my ultra distances and instead running a HM distance on the more technical side to get this done!

A thought that occurred to me last night though, how long would you expect to wait to see visible improvement in a leaner woman (20-sub 20, I'm really garbage at pinning it down)? I know there isn't going to be a hard and fast answer but I was just thinking on it. 6 months? A year+?

Focussing on lifting and marathon training seems contradictory to me. Focus on your race season and then move towards lifting and recomping.

This has basically been my excuse to this point but honestly even my sizeable vanity isn't greater than my desire to run so I feel like if I don't push I will never do it. I can't see myself not running 80+ kilometers a week to lift (which I do not enjoy) so I feel like I have to shove it in somewhere or have stomach that does not go with my legs issues forever .

Thanks for the input @psuLemon , @heybales and @trigden1991

psuLemon wrote: »

JessicaMcB wrote: »

trigden1991 wrote: »

JessicaMcB wrote: »

So in the spirit of lent I am giving up my recomp excuses haha. I already have Strong Lifts at the ready and own all my own equipment (shame on me I know) and will be running it concurrently with my marathon training for the coming race season. I'm even cutting one of my ultra distances and instead running a HM distance on the more technical side to get this done!

A thought that occurred to me last night though, how long would you expect to wait to see visible improvement in a leaner woman (20-sub 20, I'm really garbage at pinning it down)? I know there isn't going to be a hard and fast answer but I was just thinking on it. 6 months? A year+?

Focussing on lifting and marathon training seems contradictory to me. Focus on your race season and then move towards lifting and recomping.

This has basically been my excuse to this point but honestly even my sizeable vanity isn't greater than my desire to run so I feel like if I don't push I will never do it. I can't see myself not running 80+ kilometers a week to lift (which I do not enjoy) so I feel like I have to shove it in somewhere or have stomach that does not go with my legs issues forever .

Thanks for the input @psuLemon , @heybales and @trigden1991

In the end, we all have our priorities. You just have to determine, which is the number one.

Perfectly summed up.

Fallfrenzy wrote: »

Bump for later. I am at my ideal weight and do have muscle. I want to lose some of the layers of fat over the muscle, so am focusing on my macros as I think that this is where I am off. Does anyone know of a good macro calculator? Dumb question, but how do you know if your macros are good for you? Is it through visible results? I get that it can take a while to figure this stuff out too.

@Fallfrenzy
Fiddling with macros is unlikely to make a significant difference - assuming you haven't been woefully low on protein or otherwise malnourished.
Would suggest focussing on your training instead. That's where it all starts.

This is my favourite read on macros - nice and flexible for the long term, perfect for maintenance.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/819055/setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets/p1

usmcmp wrote: »

There's a lot of talk about recomposition through the boards, so I wanted to have a place where we can compile research on it and experiences with it.

When is recomp appropriate? When you are at a decent weight for your height, but your body fat is still at a level that is undesirable to you recomposition is probably a good option. It's a way to maintain your weight, eat well and still lose fat. This is a slow process and can feel like spinning your wheels, but it can be less mentally stressful than bulk and cut cycles.

The keys to recomposition are:

1. At the end of the week you have eaten at about your TDEE. You may choose to cycle calories or eat at a flat rate every day, this should fit your personal preference. If you have a consistent workout schedule using a TDEE calculator should place your goal fairly close to your actual maintenance. The only way to know for sure is to monitor your weight and calories over time while adjusting calories when you have an up or down trend.

2. Getting adequate protein. Protein is a building block of muscle. The goal of recomposition is to build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Protein, carbohydrates and fats play different roles in the muscle building process, so make sure that you keep to a macronutrient set up that works for you. This may need to be adjusted over time.

3. Lift! Following a good lifting program is the key to the entire process. It's where the magic happens. Pick a program that you will enjoy and that is going to challenge you. Continue to focus on improving.

4. Take pictures and measure. It's a slow process and you may feel you are making no progress. Your measurements will help you see that you are making progress.

Feel free to share stories of recomposition and any research you have seen on it. Ask questions if you have any.

I am 29 years old 68kg and 5'10"

I want to lose fat i.e 2 inches of belly. Ajd gain muscles.
I did lifting and loss 2 kg (when i started i was 70kg) and eat about 1500-1800 calaries a day. Avoiding sugar and junk.
I am blank in carbs fat and protein mathmatics. Although i try to take high protein food. Eggs meat etc.
Can someone guide me how much calories i should take and macro ratio?

I have been eating at maintenance or at a slight deficit for a while now (about 1.5 years) and have been slowing adding muscle. I think I have added almost 2 pounds in that 1.5 years while still wearing the same clothing size and in fact, things are fitting differently - i.e. pants fine in waist but loose around butt because the butt is starting to lift more, etc. ... so all that is to the good.

However, like with many others, my tummy is the problem area. This weight loss journey and now maintenance/recomp started over 3 years ago and I reached my weight loss goal within a year so the last two have been maintaining and now recomping. At what point do I start worrying about why the belly fat is not coming off?

In the mirror I look and see that slight pudge above the belly button and the pooch below, ending above my c-section scar. I will admit that it doesn't "poke" out as much as it did (can't tell when wearing clothes) and my abs underneath are pretty darn good! I eat pretty well but I do indulge in donuts a few times a week while still maintaining or eating at a slight deficit. While I know that most people believe in CICO no matter what (and I do too at the root of it all), I can't help but wonder if those donuts are holding me back due to the sugar and wheat! (As far as I know, I am not gluten intolerant) I also have recently done some research into perimenopause (hot flashes have been coming on several times a day for months now and I also have night sweats often) and discovered that those hormones could not only be holding me back from losing that belly fat but also has the power to re-distribute what fat you have into other areas too.

I do cardio 5x a week (2 of those times HIIT) and weight training 2x a week. I weigh my food and always round up or even add an extra serving of something when I am unable to weigh the food. I am obviously maintaining so what am I missing? I do NOT want to use hormones as an excuse but after reading a number of medical journal reports and papers released by medical schools based on research, I can't help but think perimenopause could be a factor. Anyone want to add their two cents? Suggestions?

jen_092 wrote: »

@rhtexasgal I will follow responses with interest, because I am afraid it will take me a long time to fight off my belly, too. I really admire your patience!

I suspect what more knowledgeable people might tell you would be to trade some of your non hiit cardio for more hiit, and lift more often and lift heavier if possible. Just guessing. The results I see on here from heavy lifting alone are incredible.

I appreciate your reply. In response to the HIIT, I have tried to do it more than 2x a week and I end up being exhausted and irritable. Plus, I get super sore (have inflammatory bowel disease, while in remission, still causes me to be more inflamed than usual and takes longer to get over). I have considered more heavy lifting and I guess I should consult with my trainer and see what he says.

heybales wrote: »

If you have time to lift - skip the HIIT (if its true HIIT and not just the term slapped on calisthenics).

HIIT is as close to lifting as you can get doing cardio, to improve muscle for the sport done (biking, running, X-country skiiing, ect), and some aerobic factors.

Which is why it's shown the improvement over straight cardio for burning more fat over all (not during the workout, it burns less calories) - you can damage the muscles and that takes increased metabolism to repair - if rest and diet allow it. (maintenance takes care of diet part - you allowing recovery?).

But why do cardio that is close to lifting if already doing lifting that is the better body transformer?
Perhaps you enjoy it - in which case doing it after the lifting with whatever energy you got left - it'll feel the same.

2 x weekly weights probably isn't enough frequency for best possible changes, not enough stress.

And more HIIT to make the lifting worse - that's no good.

HIIT should be considered it's own almost lifting, and needs recovery too if done right.
You using the same muscles day after day with your schedule?
Then unlikely you are having the best workout possible to stress the muscles by weight, and allowing repair.
By exhaustion sure, but that requires a different response from the body then building strength and more muscle.

And yes, hormones are against you having this easy - hence the need to examine schedule and see if you can't give more time to what will transform the body more - progressive overload lifting.

Thanks for taking the time for your input. I know I frustrate my trainer a bit because he wants me to do more lifting with him more than 2x a week ... I told him he needs to lower his rates! HA! Seriously though, I should probably add one more day of lifting on my own and do heavy lifting with my trainer to make sure I don't hurt myself. It is just so frustrating that it takes much longer for me to recover than others. BUT, I could probably tighten up my diet a bit too and add a little more protein as I struggle to meet my goals and that would probably help with recovery.

HIIT 2x a week has been best for me, after much experimenting over the past 1.5 years. Because I broke my kneecap a few years back and the muscles had to be attached in a different spot (no longer operates like a "hinge") that means I cannot run, jog or jump rope easily so the Stairmaster, recumbent bike, cross trainer and elliptical machines are my go-to cardio. On one of the machines, it allows me to do an explosive "sprint" which I have discovered has greatly helped with fat burn. I guess I am just a bit impatient as i KNOW belly fat is the toughest to tackle.

Thanks for the heaving lifting suggestion. I have read this over and over on the forums so it is time for me to look into it.

I guess, unless you're a fitness model or participate in competitions where a "six-pack" is just abt required.

rhtexasgal wrote: »

heybales wrote: »

If you have time to lift - skip the HIIT (if its true HIIT and not just the term slapped on calisthenics).

HIIT is as close to lifting as you can get doing cardio, to improve muscle for the sport done (biking, running, X-country skiiing, ect), and some aerobic factors.

Which is why it's shown the improvement over straight cardio for burning more fat over all (not during the workout, it burns less calories) - you can damage the muscles and that takes increased metabolism to repair - if rest and diet allow it. (maintenance takes care of diet part - you allowing recovery?).

But why do cardio that is close to lifting if already doing lifting that is the better body transformer?
Perhaps you enjoy it - in which case doing it after the lifting with whatever energy you got left - it'll feel the same.

2 x weekly weights probably isn't enough frequency for best possible changes, not enough stress.

And more HIIT to make the lifting worse - that's no good.

HIIT should be considered it's own almost lifting, and needs recovery too if done right.
You using the same muscles day after day with your schedule?
Then unlikely you are having the best workout possible to stress the muscles by weight, and allowing repair.
By exhaustion sure, but that requires a different response from the body then building strength and more muscle.

And yes, hormones are against you having this easy - hence the need to examine schedule and see if you can't give more time to what will transform the body more - progressive overload lifting.

Thanks for taking the time for your input. I know I frustrate my trainer a bit because he wants me to do more lifting with him more than 2x a week ... I told him he needs to lower his rates! HA! Seriously though, I should probably add one more day of lifting on my own and do heavy lifting with my trainer to make sure I don't hurt myself. It is just so frustrating that it takes much longer for me to recover than others. BUT, I could probably tighten up my diet a bit too and add a little more protein as I struggle to meet my goals and that would probably help with recovery.

HIIT 2x a week has been best for me, after much experimenting over the past 1.5 years. Because I broke my kneecap a few years back and the muscles had to be attached in a different spot (no longer operates like a "hinge") that means I cannot run, jog or jump rope easily so the Stairmaster, recumbent bike, cross trainer and elliptical machines are my go-to cardio. On one of the machines, it allows me to do an explosive "sprint" which I have discovered has greatly helped with fat burn. I guess I am just a bit impatient as i KNOW belly fat is the toughest to tackle.

Thanks for the heaving lifting suggestion. I have read this over and over on the forums so it is time for me to look into it.

Use the coach to confirm you got form right - do that 3rd day on your own.

Takes longer for you to recover than others.
Probably 2 reasons why.
1 - You aren't doing the lifting enough - seems counter-intuitive, but it's true. Like DOMS usually stops when you do it frequently enough - still going to almost failure, but body handles it better (if allowed to recover).
2 - Your diet is either extreme enough it's hampering recovery, or your full schedule of activity isn't allowing it.

If your HIIT is 15-45 sec of max effort, followed by enough recovery (usually 3 x as long, so 45-135 sec) to do it just as hard again, for about 8-12 "sets" - then it deserves a rest day for those muscles just as lifting would normally.

Would you do squats day after day in a diet (or even not) and expect to keep making progress? (after the initial form learning improvements)

I'll bet you don't recover as well as you could - that's what I was speaking about in other post too.

Shoot, even if day 1 saw a good lifting workout with legs - you doing the HIIT on day 2 probably just killed the recovery. Pretty much making a waste of time for that lifting workout.

There's a reason why there has been a HR zone called Active Recovery for many many years. Gets the blood flowing, muscles working, and aids recovery from a prior day hard workout with them.
Sadly for a while it was misapplied and called the Fat-burning HR zone. And while the application of the fad for general cardio workouts was wrong - it's still a valid and useful area of cardio workout.

Why do you think you need to do the HIIT?
You said fat-loss - and that's because it's close to lifting, though burning a tad more when done right.
If you need the bigger burn in order to eat more to still have a deficit, then I'd suggest re-arrange the schedule.

Do the HIIT after the lifting. 3 x weekly, or at least the current 2 x, but lifting at 3 x.
Do walking or easy cardio the rest day in-between, allow recovery from both workouts.
Shift some of the calories (200) from the big workout day to the easy day - which is actually when your body is burning more repairing - your body will know what to do with it.

I'm sure you'll see much improved workouts, and body transform.

Tummy fat - ya, that's hard one since usually first on, last off. And genetics.
That just benefits from increased low-key daily activity with a deficit - where the majority of energy source is fat already.

jen_092 wrote: »

I'm here to learn and may be wrong - but it's probably worth noting, she said it takes longer for her to recover in part because of inflammatory bowel disease. With that going on, the amount and intensity of exercise seem to moderate her recovery time, beyond her full control.

Thanks heybales for your reply and I may actually agree with you in regards to #1, not lifting enough. However, jen did focus in on one of my problems - inflammatory bowel disease. While my gut itself has healed, I still test with some elevated inflammatory markers when I do my bloodwork 4x times a year. The doctors said that I am one of a small percentage that may always have some low-level inflammation which keeps myself open for future inflammatory illnesses. I have given grain-free a try for 1.5 years and it made no difference. No dairy made no difference either ... I have done a number of other things too and I try to avoid foods that are inflammatory like fried foods, corn and other foods. And now perimenopause with fluctuating hormones ...

I too had a little bit of a belly below the belly button even during high school when I ran cross country and track and a good weight. It could be just genetics and I can deal with that BUT I just feel that some more of that belly fat could be gone!

Here is what I do:

Mon-early a.m. 30 minute cardio and 45 minutes lifting
Tues-walk in evening (I am so sore in the morning that I can barely get out of bed from the day before)
Wed- early am cardio including HIIT
Thurs-early am cardio 30 minutes and 45 minutes lifting
Fri-early am cardio 50 minutes on bike and abs
Sat-morning cardio including HIIT and maybe light lifting to work out the soreness and kinks
Sun-powerwalk in evening

Just seeing in laid out like that, it truly does seem that I need more lifting! I may reduce some of that cardio and replace it with weights. I just need to see how I can better recover so I am not so down and out that I can barely get out of bed (like on Tuesday mornings).

heybales wrote: »

Ok, sorry, when you had the line about recovery taking longer I wasn't accounting for why.

Which in the end - doesn't actually matter.
If it takes you longer to recovery, then you do what is needed to allow it to occur, over longer period of time.

The how you do that still applies - allow repair from the workouts so the next one is really a good one too.

For people eating in surplus bulking, great sleep, great diet - they don't take as long to recover.

For people where body is fighting a disease, or terrible sleep or diet - they take longer.

Deficit eating is a stress anyway on the body to some degree, you add up all the stresses, and you got an extra whammy, which may add to others (bad sleep) - then you need to control the stresses you can - like amount of exercise.

I'd say 10 min cardio warmup to lifting - make the other 20 the HIIT if it's just a matter of loving the feeling you get from it, after the lifting. If the HIIT isn't something you just love, end with a little cardio to perhaps aid healing and make the next morning better. That is tough, sorry to hear that.
Next day is just walking.

And since this is recomp thread, so eating at maintenance, there really should be no stress from deficit diet eating.

I appreciate this! I need to get over my impatience AND maybe reduce some cardio and increase the weights. While perhaps 2/3 of the time I eat at maintenance, that 1/3 deficit is something I should reduce and then tweak as necessary if I notice any clothes tightening. I don't pay much attention to the scale as I have slowly gained a few pounds while losing inches in other areas and my clothes fitting the same. In other words, I also need to tweak my mindset about things too. Again, my thanks for sharing your knowledge and your lengthy, well-thought replies. It helps!