"Now that I'm in keto, I'm burning fat- you're burning glucose"
Replies
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What's interesting is that when I got my RMR measured, they said that my primary energy source was from fat and I was following a low fat, moderate carb diet. So I guess you don't have cut carbs out of your diet if you want to be fat adapted.0
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mom23mangos wrote: »What's interesting is that when I got my RMR measured, they said that my primary energy source was from fat and I was following a low fat, moderate carb diet. So I guess you don't have cut carbs out of your diet if you want to be fat adapted.
I'm not sure how many carbs you are considering to be "moderate," but if you are not taking in much beyond what your central nervous system uses, then it doesn't matter whether you are eating low fat or high fat. The important factor is that you are primarily using fat for muscles, whether that comes from your diet or from fat that is stored on your body. Those in ketosis need less glucose for the central nervous system, but those who eat SAD generally need around 120g-130g per day for their brain / nervous system.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »mom23mangos wrote: »What's interesting is that when I got my RMR measured, they said that my primary energy source was from fat and I was following a low fat, moderate carb diet. So I guess you don't have cut carbs out of your diet if you want to be fat adapted.
I'm not sure how many carbs you are considering to be "moderate," but if you are not taking in much beyond what your central nervous system uses, then it doesn't matter whether you are eating low fat or high fat. The important factor is that you are primarily using fat for muscles, whether that comes from your diet or from fat that is stored on your body. Those in ketosis need less glucose for the central nervous system, but those who eat SAD generally need around 120g-130g per day for their brain / nervous system.
I think I was eating around 120-140g per day.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I could be wrong here (since I do not follow a Keto diet), but how does eating Keto just remove counting calories? When it comes to weight loss, calories are still going to be the most important factor. LCHF and HCLF diets are just different dietary methods, but eating a ton of carbs and going over your calorie limit or eating a ton of fat and going over calorie limit are still going to bring about the same result. The only thing I have seen from Keto dieters is that fat leaves them feeling more full so they may not eat as much thus resulting in a calorie deficit. Keto and calorie counting are not competing philosophies to my understanding.
Right, but that isn't relevant to the original question; which is about energy use. Fat adapted persons primarily use fat for muscles while everyone else primarily uses glucose. Your point, which is valid, just goes back to the source of that energy - those who consume more fat and very few carbs over longer periods of time transition to becoming fat adapted. They primarily burn fat for energy, but that doesn't automatically mean they burn body fat. If they are eating more fat than they are burning, then they are burning dietary fat plus storing some of that dietary fat (to become body fat). On the other hand, if eating less fat, then some body fat will be burned in addition to the dietary fat.
Still, she is primarily burning fat. I've never understood why some people hear "burning fat" and automatically imply "burning body fat." Sometimes, "burning fat" means "burning dietary fat." Sometimes it means both.
It's probably a basic misunderstanding of how the body actually works and it's probably proclaimed that way by zealots that follow the plan to make it seem like their way is better; you actually see similar answers in vegans who tend to proclaim that cows milk makes you fat.. because baby cows and that you are drinking the blood and puss of a cow. Another good example is the whole sugar makes cancer worse... but it's a misunderstand that the source of some cancers are glucose (not the sugar you ingest).
Also, and maybe I am wrong, but I thought I read an article that demonstrated that people generally have equivalent fat/carb oxidation rates with the exceptions being those who are fat adapted or that tend to get substantial amounts of carbs over fat/protein (generally endurance athletes).
Could you link to it? I am always looking for good info.
Unfortunately, I cannot. I think @sijomial provided it as it got brought up one of the cycling discussions.
ETA: I found this searching: http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Substrates.html0 -
mom23mangos wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »mom23mangos wrote: »What's interesting is that when I got my RMR measured, they said that my primary energy source was from fat and I was following a low fat, moderate carb diet. So I guess you don't have cut carbs out of your diet if you want to be fat adapted.
I'm not sure how many carbs you are considering to be "moderate," but if you are not taking in much beyond what your central nervous system uses, then it doesn't matter whether you are eating low fat or high fat. The important factor is that you are primarily using fat for muscles, whether that comes from your diet or from fat that is stored on your body. Those in ketosis need less glucose for the central nervous system, but those who eat SAD generally need around 120g-130g per day for their brain / nervous system.
I think I was eating around 120-140g per day.
Most or all of the glucose from carbs was going to your brain, then; leaving little or nothing for muscles. That's why they oxidized fat for energy.0 -
Personally I would equate keto to a form of crash dieting...
Carbs are your bodies first source of energy, when you run, you will burn carbs (glycogen) until your body has had a chance to metabolize enough fat to keep up with the energy demand...
Then it will begin to conserve glycogen and burn fat depending on how much fat you have available relative to your glycogen stores, relative to your intensity level...
If you don't have any glycogen, your body will likely breakdown muscles to meet the demands until fat is metabolized, again based on availability...
Keto is an unhealthy diet created by top body builders for the sole purpose of reaching unhealthy low body fat levels... Not a sustainable way to live, diets like this are why 98% gain the weight back and yoyo...
The title of this thread is so freaking pretentious it makes me nauseous...
Mic drop1 -
JstTheWayIam wrote: »Personally I would equate keto to a form of crash dieting...
Carbs are your bodies first source of energy, when you run, you will burn carbs (glycogen) until your body has had a chance to metabolize enough fat to keep up with the energy demand...
Then it will begin to conserve glycogen and burn fat depending on how much fat you have available relative to your glycogen stores, relative to your intensity level...
If you don't have any glycogen, your body will likely breakdown muscles to meet the demands until fat is metabolized, again based on availability...
Keto is an unhealthy diet created by top body builders for the sole purpose of reaching unhealthy low body fat levels... Not a sustainable way to live, diets like this are why 98% gain the weight back and yoyo...
The title of this thread is so freaking pretentious it makes me nauseous...
Mic drop
I was kidding when I said "us v. them." Between this thread and the "closed for moderation" thread about snacks, apparently people really feel this way? Holy crap.1 -
JstTheWayIam wrote: »Personally I would equate keto to a form of crash dieting...
Carbs are your bodies first source of energy, when you run, you will burn carbs (glycogen) until your body has had a chance to metabolize enough fat to keep up with the energy demand...
Then it will begin to conserve glycogen and burn fat depending on how much fat you have available relative to your glycogen stores, relative to your intensity level...
If you don't have any glycogen, your body will likely breakdown muscles to meet the demands until fat is metabolized, again based on availability...
Keto is an unhealthy diet created by top body builders for the sole purpose of reaching unhealthy low body fat levels... Not a sustainable way to live, diets like this are why 98% gain the weight back and yoyo...
The title of this thread is so freaking pretentious it makes me nauseous...
Mic drop
The body can store 300-500g of glycogen and unlimited fat stores. So it's not going to metabolize amino acids just nilly-willy, especially considering how metabolically taxing glucenogensis is.
IRT the bold.... most bodybuilders don't even do ketogenesis correctly. They do very low carb, high protein very low fat, which is often why they feel like crap. So yea, people can't sustain that. But they can certain sustain an actual keto diet and many do.0 -
JstTheWayIam wrote: »Personally I would equate keto to a form of crash dieting...
Carbs are your bodies first source of energy, when you run, you will burn carbs (glycogen) until your body has had a chance to metabolize enough fat to keep up with the energy demand...
For those on SAD, yes. For those who are fat adapted, you are wrong.If you don't have any glycogen, your body will likely breakdown muscles to meet the demands until fat is metabolized, again based on availability...
Generally, those who are fat adapted have very low glycogen reserves. This is why people lose a whole lot of water weight in the beginning as they convert to keto level carbs - they are losing water along with the glycogen they shed.Keto is an unhealthy diet created by top body builders for the sole purpose of reaching unhealthy low body fat levels... Not a sustainable way to live, diets like this are why 98% gain the weight back and yoyo...
Some keto dieters fall off the wagon. Some CICO dieters fall off the wagon. By the same logic, counting calories is not a sustainable way to live. Personally, I've found that counting calories just doesn't work very well while eating very low carb does. That doesn't mean one way will or will not work for any other individual; but it works for me. That's the thing about weight loss - there are lots of different methods, and different methods work for different people in different ways. If something isn't working, then we can find something that will work. And just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it can't work for anyone.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Personally I would equate keto to a form of crash dieting...
Carbs are your bodies first source of energy, when you run, you will burn carbs (glycogen) until your body has had a chance to metabolize enough fat to keep up with the energy demand...
For those on SAD, yes. For those who are fat adapted, you are wrong.If you don't have any glycogen, your body will likely breakdown muscles to meet the demands until fat is metabolized, again based on availability...
Generally, those who are fat adapted have very low glycogen reserves. This is why people lose a whole lot of water weight in the beginning as they convert to keto level carbs - they are losing water along with the glycogen they shed.Keto is an unhealthy diet created by top body builders for the sole purpose of reaching unhealthy low body fat levels... Not a sustainable way to live, diets like this are why 98% gain the weight back and yoyo...
Some keto dieters fall off the wagon. Some CICO dieters fall off the wagon. By the same logic, counting calories is not a sustainable way to live. Personally, I've found that counting calories just doesn't work very well while eating very low carb does. That doesn't mean one way will or will not work for any other individual; but it works for me. That's the thing about weight loss - there are lots of different methods, and different methods work for different people in different ways. If something isn't working, then we can find something that will work. And just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it can't work for anyone.
I think the data is fairly conclusive... there is about an 80% failure rate regardless of the dietary approach.. So.. pretty much screwed anyway we go.
And CICO isn't a diets.. it refers to energy balance.3 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Personally I would equate keto to a form of crash dieting...
Carbs are your bodies first source of energy, when you run, you will burn carbs (glycogen) until your body has had a chance to metabolize enough fat to keep up with the energy demand...
For those on SAD, yes. For those who are fat adapted, you are wrong.If you don't have any glycogen, your body will likely breakdown muscles to meet the demands until fat is metabolized, again based on availability...
Generally, those who are fat adapted have very low glycogen reserves. This is why people lose a whole lot of water weight in the beginning as they convert to keto level carbs - they are losing water along with the glycogen they shed.Keto is an unhealthy diet created by top body builders for the sole purpose of reaching unhealthy low body fat levels... Not a sustainable way to live, diets like this are why 98% gain the weight back and yoyo...
Some keto dieters fall off the wagon. Some CICO dieters fall off the wagon. By the same logic, counting calories is not a sustainable way to live. Personally, I've found that counting calories just doesn't work very well while eating very low carb does. That doesn't mean one way will or will not work for any other individual; but it works for me. That's the thing about weight loss - there are lots of different methods, and different methods work for different people in different ways. If something isn't working, then we can find something that will work. And just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it can't work for anyone.
I think the data is fairly conclusive... there is about an 80% failure rate regardless of the dietary approach.. So.. pretty much screwed anyway we go.
And CICO isn't a diets.. it refers to energy balance.
By CICO, I mean exclusively counting calories.0 -
Diets like keto are pushed by people that often have a financial stake in getting you to believe that you can lose weight and eat all the fat, meat, and dairy you want... A relatively easy sale to most SAD dieters...
Eat bacon... It's low carb, eat all the cheese and eggs you want... fruit and whole grains are what's really sabotaging you... Buy my books5 -
JstTheWayIam wrote: »Diets like keto are pushed by people that often have a financial stake
So is everything.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Diets like keto are pushed by people that often have a financial stake
So is everything.
Yep.. pretty much..0 -
a calorie is a calorie? hmm. Check out this video blog of a body builder who ate 4,000 calories a day for 21 days to see what would happen, while NOT changing work outs, etc.. except he did it in Ketosis. others who did this calorie experiement using "low fat" have gained significant weight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRop_ltYUlk&t=13s
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leanjogreen18 wrote: »Some on Keto don't count calories because fat and protein are satisfying for them. So they eat less in general (eating less calories).
However one can and many do gain weight on Keto and they figure out they need to count calories even on the Keto diet. Some here on Mfp have acknowledged that.
So your friend may never have to count calories just as some people eating smaller portions on any "diet" can lose without counting calories. Reality for other folks is counting regardless of what "diet" they are on Keto included.
the above statement I agree with!
I have been Keto for a few months and when tracking in my diary, often I get error messages from MFP on too low of calories for the day, WTF? only 800 calories? I'm eating beef sticks, eggs, protein.. usually some meat, steak, roast for dinner. but I seem to eat significantly less now on a daily basis than when I did low cal/low fat diets. Before, I seemed to be eating every 2-3 hours, and if I didn't I would get the shakes from my sugar levels dropping. now I can go 6.. 8 hours during the day no problem and I am not hungry and never get shaky since my blood sugar is regulated out. but to each their own.1 -
The issues with his "experiment" are numerous (see the discussion in the Debate Forum).AngiesCookie wrote: »a calorie is a calorie? hmm. Check out this video blog of a body builder who ate 4,000 calories a day for 21 days to see what would happen, while NOT changing work outs, etc.. except he did it in Ketosis. others who did this calorie experiement using "low fat" have gained significant weight.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRop_ltYUlk&t=13s
Well done studies using proper controls have shown no metabolic advantage to a HCLF diet versus other when protein is controlled for.7 -
AngiesCookie wrote: »a calorie is a calorie? hmm. Check out this video blog of a body builder who ate 4,000 calories a day for 21 days to see what would happen, while NOT changing work outs, etc.. except he did it in Ketosis. others who did this calorie experiement using "low fat" have gained significant weight.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRop_ltYUlk&t=13s
this n=1 study has severe flaws, so you can toss that out..2 -
AngiesCookie wrote: »a calorie is a calorie? hmm. Check out this video blog of a body builder who ate 4,000 calories a day for 21 days to see what would happen, while NOT changing work outs, etc.. except he did it in Ketosis. others who did this calorie experiement using "low fat" have gained significant weight.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRop_ltYUlk&t=13s
this n=1 study has severe flaws, so you can toss that out..
Cosign. This video was discussed/analyzed pretty extensively in the Debate forum. There are so many holes in his n=1 "experiment" that it's about as valid as an "ItWorks" peddler's glowing claims that their silly wraps will make you lose weight.
Keto is not magical.4 -
I have a problem with any exercise or diet plan where people become insufferable converts that looooove to talk about how their new religion could save you too, if you saw the light and drank the kool-aid.*
*but not real kool-aid because carbs.
Vegans and vegetarians can certainly fall into this category of smug, annoying superiority. They don't have to, and neither do high protein people, but often they seem to. It's like they need to be recognized for their efforts to make it worthwhile.6 -
AngiesCookie wrote: »a calorie is a calorie? hmm. Check out this video blog of a body builder who ate 4,000 calories a day for 21 days to see what would happen, while NOT changing work outs, etc.. except he did it in Ketosis. others who did this calorie experiement using "low fat" have gained significant weight.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRop_ltYUlk&t=13s
The biggest flaw with his experiment, and I did watch every episode, was he never baselined caloric needs (EE); which is the most important aspect of any well controlled study. He is also a body builder, so the question of "supplements" comes into play, and I am not talking whey protein and BCAA's.4 -
FYI - doing keto is just one way to become better adapted to burning fat for exercise. Can also be done through fasted training, low carb training and simply long low intensity training sessions.
I used to train fasted when I followed an intermittent fasting protocol and saw a big difference in fuelling needs on multi hour cycle rides.
Pretty irrelevant unless you do endurance cardio sports though.2 -
mom23mangos wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »mom23mangos wrote: »What's interesting is that when I got my RMR measured, they said that my primary energy source was from fat and I was following a low fat, moderate carb diet. So I guess you don't have cut carbs out of your diet if you want to be fat adapted.
I'm not sure how many carbs you are considering to be "moderate," but if you are not taking in much beyond what your central nervous system uses, then it doesn't matter whether you are eating low fat or high fat. The important factor is that you are primarily using fat for muscles, whether that comes from your diet or from fat that is stored on your body. Those in ketosis need less glucose for the central nervous system, but those who eat SAD generally need around 120g-130g per day for their brain / nervous system.
I think I was eating around 120-140g per day.
This is considered to be low carb by many. The low carb high fat carb limit is usually accepted to be under 100 to 150 g per day. It makes sense that you are getting a large portion of your energy from fat.0 -
JstTheWayIam wrote: »Diets like keto are pushed by people that often have a financial stake in getting you to believe that you can lose weight and eat all the fat, meat, and dairy you want... A relatively easy sale to most SAD dieters...
Eat bacon... It's low carb, eat all the cheese and eggs you want... fruit and whole grains are what's really sabotaging you... Buy my books
My doctor recommended it. I eat bacon and cheese. Lots. Lost 40lbs pretty easily.
My thyroid slowed and I was eating too much for my metabolism. I regained 10 lbs eating lots of fat. Now I am once again losing, while eating lots of fat and controlling my blood glucose numbers.
I've been keto for almost 2 years
LCHF is not a plot against higher carb. It isn't starvation either. It's a woe that can provide health benefits or aid in weight loss by reducing appetite (but not in all).0 -
Just in reference to the title...
There are so many conflicting "experts" and misinformation out there that some on Keto actually think they are exclusively burning body fat thus the statement to the op.
I don't understand why Ketoers make the statement at all because other than health issues there is no metabolic advantage. So why say I'm burning fat at all?
Especially after 6 months if we all drop the same amount of weight aren't we all burning fat at some point?
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