Helmets are your friend
Replies
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tiny_clanger wrote: »3rdof7sisters wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Reading this entire thread, I get the idea that wearing helmets isn't what we really need here. Instead, we need cars to stop hitting us.
It is probably a good idea to have a helmet on. A lot of unforeseen things could happen even trail riding. Flat tire, stick in the spokes, deer, or other animal jumping out. Accidents happen.
It's a two way thing. Yes, if you are in an accident, a helmet is likely to protect you. However, wearing a helmet may make you more likely to be in an accident.
Yep true.
You get treated differently when you dress "like a pro cyclist" - somehow it dehumanises you. I'm noticing less interaction recently as I've just upgraded to a helmet with visor. Less face on view so therefore I'm a cyclist not a person - upside is less children getting scared and having nightmares of course....
And also people in general when they feel safer take more risks.
A bit like when Volvo started really pushing how safe their cars were - it became folklore in the motorcyclist community to watch out for them as if you don't fear an accident you simply don't do as much to avoid one.
If you really wanted people to drive more carefully then a spike in the centre of the steering wheel would be more effective than an airbag.
On the cyclist and motorcyclist side people who have accidents wearing a helmet tend to get less head injuries but the speeds they have accidents at is often higher than those that ride without one.
I ditched the snap on visor, so visibility was restored.
It's just pure conjecture that wearing a helmet 'dehumanizes' the rider and makes them more of a target to drivers. If that even were a thing, bike shorts and the jersey would flip the switch as well.
It's also bad logic that people will take greater risks just because they wear a helmet, unless you are comparing an evening 5mph ride around their cul-de-sac vs someone having the courage to bike commute because they have a helmet. I would love to see your reference for this one.0 -
tiny_clanger wrote: »3rdof7sisters wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Reading this entire thread, I get the idea that wearing helmets isn't what we really need here. Instead, we need cars to stop hitting us.
It is probably a good idea to have a helmet on. A lot of unforeseen things could happen even trail riding. Flat tire, stick in the spokes, deer, or other animal jumping out. Accidents happen.
It's a two way thing. Yes, if you are in an accident, a helmet is likely to protect you. However, wearing a helmet may make you more likely to be in an accident.
Yep true.
You get treated differently when you dress "like a pro cyclist" - somehow it dehumanises you. I'm noticing less interaction recently as I've just upgraded to a helmet with visor. Less face on view so therefore I'm a cyclist not a person - upside is less children getting scared and having nightmares of course....
And also people in general when they feel safer take more risks.
A bit like when Volvo started really pushing how safe their cars were - it became folklore in the motorcyclist community to watch out for them as if you don't fear an accident you simply don't do as much to avoid one.
If you really wanted people to drive more carefully then a spike in the centre of the steering wheel would be more effective than an airbag.
On the cyclist and motorcyclist side people who have accidents wearing a helmet tend to get less head injuries but the speeds they have accidents at is often higher than those that ride without one.
I ditched the snap on visor, so visibility was restored.
It's just pure conjecture that wearing a helmet 'dehumanizes' the rider and makes them more of a target to drivers. If that even were a thing, bike shorts and the jersey would flip the switch as well.
It's also bad logic that people will take greater risks just because they wear a helmet, unless you are comparing an evening 5mph ride around their cul-de-sac vs someone having the courage to bike commute because they have a helmet. I would love to see your reference for this one.
Agreed! Just because I have a helmet on or wear a seat belt or have an airbag, doesn't mean having an accident is somehow not so bad and I'm gonna be less careful. I don't want to be in an accident, period. Those safety features are still no guarantee you won't be seriously injured or killed. Helmet or not, it's gonna hurt.
And LOL that a helmet with a visor makes drivers care less about hitting you. That's just silly.0 -
Eh. The accident I witnessed the bicycle rider wasn't wearing a helmet and the accident was 100% his fault. For the few seconds that I saw the motorcycle rider with the helmet he seemed to be driving appropriately for the conditions. Not always the non-bicycle fault and not always the one in the helmet being reckless.1
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Perhaps you can elaborate?
My helmets don't interfere with my visibility or hearing, and they improve my visibility3rdof7sisters wrote: »Just curious tiny_clanger, how does it make you more likely to be in an accident wearing a helmet? I am not trying to be a jerk about this, I would really like to be educated about your reasoning for this. I realize that there may be a vision issue with certain types of helmets, but the design of them has greatly improved over the years so vision is better with a proper fitting helmet.
If you take a look at the article I linked to it references the work to demonstrate the association.
Riders have greater risk appetite, and cagers are less willing to give concessions to those that they see as experienced.
Personally one thing that I've found that makes a huge difference is making eye contact with drivers, something I learned when I was doing high speed driving training. Eye contact generates a personal link that improves the likelihood of being treated reasonably.
Appreciating that it's an N=1 situation, but I've noticed distinctly different driver behaviour depending on what bike I'm on. In cycling kit on a road bike I'll have a very different experience than when I'm wearing a suit on a commuting folding bike. On the folder I've also done the same ride both with and without a helmet, and seen very different approaches from drivers.
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Crashed my bike a few years back. Broken rib, broken thumb, dislocated shoulder, nasty road rash. No one saw the accident, but people heard the sound of my helmet hitting the ground. Pretty sure I'd be dead or quite different had it not been for my helmet.
I don't ride with people who don't wear a helmet.4 -
tiny_clanger wrote: »3rdof7sisters wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Reading this entire thread, I get the idea that wearing helmets isn't what we really need here. Instead, we need cars to stop hitting us.
It is probably a good idea to have a helmet on. A lot of unforeseen things could happen even trail riding. Flat tire, stick in the spokes, deer, or other animal jumping out. Accidents happen.
It's a two way thing. Yes, if you are in an accident, a helmet is likely to protect you. However, wearing a helmet may make you more likely to be in an accident.
Yep true.
You get treated differently when you dress "like a pro cyclist" - somehow it dehumanises you. I'm noticing less interaction recently as I've just upgraded to a helmet with visor. Less face on view so therefore I'm a cyclist not a person - upside is less children getting scared and having nightmares of course....
And also people in general when they feel safer take more risks.
A bit like when Volvo started really pushing how safe their cars were - it became folklore in the motorcyclist community to watch out for them as if you don't fear an accident you simply don't do as much to avoid one.
If you really wanted people to drive more carefully then a spike in the centre of the steering wheel would be more effective than an airbag.
On the cyclist and motorcyclist side people who have accidents wearing a helmet tend to get less head injuries but the speeds they have accidents at is often higher than those that ride without one.
I ditched the snap on visor, so visibility was restored.
It's just pure conjecture that wearing a helmet 'dehumanizes' the rider and makes them more of a target to drivers. If that even were a thing, bike shorts and the jersey would flip the switch as well.
It's also bad logic that people will take greater risks just because they wear a helmet, unless you are comparing an evening 5mph ride around their cul-de-sac vs someone having the courage to bike commute because they have a helmet. I would love to see your reference for this one.
Nope - it's not conjecture. It's well known human psychology. Feel free to do your own research.
I was heavily involved in advanced motorcycle training (training riders and riding instructors) and the things I wrote are well known and understood.
Someone riding a motorbike in street clothes without a helmet rides more carefully because they know crashing will hurt. Downside is of course if they have an accident it's more likely to result in worse injury.
Feel safer because you are wearing a £500 helmet and airbag equipped racing leathers and instead of riding the same human nature tends (not 100% of course) to lead to people riding faster taking more risks.
Wear full leathers and full face helmet (or a cyclist wearing team riding kit, helmet and wraparound glasses) and you are no longer a person you are a "power ranger" or a "biker" or you get the phrase "you bikers/cyclists are all the same" thrown at you. Eye to eye contact makes a huge difference in how people relate to each other.2 -
I had a bad crash in 2007 and actually ended up with a concussion and broken helmet ... and a bunch of other injuries.
So, incredibly glad I had the helmet on!!!!!!!
Oh, and no cars involved.5 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Perhaps you can elaborate?
My helmets don't interfere with my visibility or hearing, and they improve my visibility3rdof7sisters wrote: »Just curious tiny_clanger, how does it make you more likely to be in an accident wearing a helmet? I am not trying to be a jerk about this, I would really like to be educated about your reasoning for this. I realize that there may be a vision issue with certain types of helmets, but the design of them has greatly improved over the years so vision is better with a proper fitting helmet.
If you take a look at the article I linked to it references the work to demonstrate the association.
Riders have greater risk appetite, and cagers are less willing to give concessions to those that they see as experienced.
Personally one thing that I've found that makes a huge difference is making eye contact with drivers, something I learned when I was doing high speed driving training. Eye contact generates a personal link that improves the likelihood of being treated reasonably.
Appreciating that it's an N=1 situation, but I've noticed distinctly different driver behaviour depending on what bike I'm on. In cycling kit on a road bike I'll have a very different experience than when I'm wearing a suit on a commuting folding bike. On the folder I've also done the same ride both with and without a helmet, and seen very different approaches from drivers.
I have no issue sharing the roadways with pedestrians, bikers etc. When driving, and there is not oncoming traffic, I will move over to give more room, and I appreciate when pedestrians and bikers do the same. Courtesy is a two way street, and while I do not bike, I do walk, on roads that have a 55 mph speed limit, and I always move as far over as possible when meeting traffic. Frankly I don't notice what a biker is wearing. Frequently, bikers will ride two, or more abreast, and make no effort to move to single file, let alone get over on the shoulder, biking in the traffic lane when there is space to move over. To me, that is sheer lunacy on bikers part. With all the crazy drivers, everyone (bikers and vehicles) need to keep this in mind. I absolutely do not condone road rage, but people have to use common sense, and a motorized vehicle vs: a bicycle or pedestrian, stand very little chance of coming out on the best end of a confrontation between the two. I know that everyone has a right to be on public roads, but, common sense needs to prevail, and every little thing that may help (ie: helmet) shows some smart personal responsibility.
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3rdof7sisters wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Perhaps you can elaborate?
My helmets don't interfere with my visibility or hearing, and they improve my visibility3rdof7sisters wrote: »Just curious tiny_clanger, how does it make you more likely to be in an accident wearing a helmet? I am not trying to be a jerk about this, I would really like to be educated about your reasoning for this. I realize that there may be a vision issue with certain types of helmets, but the design of them has greatly improved over the years so vision is better with a proper fitting helmet.
If you take a look at the article I linked to it references the work to demonstrate the association.
Riders have greater risk appetite, and cagers are less willing to give concessions to those that they see as experienced.
Personally one thing that I've found that makes a huge difference is making eye contact with drivers, something I learned when I was doing high speed driving training. Eye contact generates a personal link that improves the likelihood of being treated reasonably.
Appreciating that it's an N=1 situation, but I've noticed distinctly different driver behaviour depending on what bike I'm on. In cycling kit on a road bike I'll have a very different experience than when I'm wearing a suit on a commuting folding bike. On the folder I've also done the same ride both with and without a helmet, and seen very different approaches from drivers.
I have no issue sharing the roadways with pedestrians, bikers etc. When driving, and there is not oncoming traffic, I will move over to give more room, and I appreciate when pedestrians and bikers do the same. Courtesy is a two way street, and while I do not bike, I do walk, on roads that have a 55 mph speed limit, and I always move as far over as possible when meeting traffic. Frankly I don't notice what a biker is wearing. Frequently, bikers will ride two, or more abreast, and make no effort to move to single file, let alone get over on the shoulder, biking in the traffic lane when there is space to move over. To me, that is sheer lunacy on bikers part. With all the crazy drivers, everyone (bikers and vehicles) need to keep this in mind. I absolutely do not condone road rage, but people have to use common sense, and a motorized vehicle vs: a bicycle or pedestrian, stand very little chance of coming out on the best end of a confrontation between the two. I know that everyone has a right to be on public roads, but, common sense needs to prevail, and every little thing that may help (ie: helmet) shows some smart personal responsibility.
Yes, but a car driver cannot see the road obstacles that a bicycle must deal with - ditches, potholes, gravel all keep a cyclist from getting as far over as s/he otherwise might.3 -
Last year I came upon an accident scene where a guy hit a bump and crashed his bike and was not wearing a helmet. He was bleeding from his head and when he regained consciousness he couldn't remember anything. I waited with him till the ambulance came, I'm sure he ended up ok but I bet he doesn't forget to wear his helmet ever again.2
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http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1012.html
That's quite an interesting site about use of cycling helmets. Seems that, as previously mentioned in this thread, They don't have any real impact on reducing fatalities because most cycling fatalities involve multiple injuries meaning death would have occurred with or without a helmet.1 -
3rdof7sisters wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Perhaps you can elaborate?
My helmets don't interfere with my visibility or hearing, and they improve my visibility3rdof7sisters wrote: »Just curious tiny_clanger, how does it make you more likely to be in an accident wearing a helmet? I am not trying to be a jerk about this, I would really like to be educated about your reasoning for this. I realize that there may be a vision issue with certain types of helmets, but the design of them has greatly improved over the years so vision is better with a proper fitting helmet.
If you take a look at the article I linked to it references the work to demonstrate the association.
Riders have greater risk appetite, and cagers are less willing to give concessions to those that they see as experienced.
Personally one thing that I've found that makes a huge difference is making eye contact with drivers, something I learned when I was doing high speed driving training. Eye contact generates a personal link that improves the likelihood of being treated reasonably.
Appreciating that it's an N=1 situation, but I've noticed distinctly different driver behaviour depending on what bike I'm on. In cycling kit on a road bike I'll have a very different experience than when I'm wearing a suit on a commuting folding bike. On the folder I've also done the same ride both with and without a helmet, and seen very different approaches from drivers.
I have no issue sharing the roadways with pedestrians, bikers etc. When driving, and there is not oncoming traffic, I will move over to give more room, and I appreciate when pedestrians and bikers do the same. Courtesy is a two way street, and while I do not bike, I do walk, on roads that have a 55 mph speed limit, and I always move as far over as possible when meeting traffic. Frankly I don't notice what a biker is wearing. Frequently, bikers will ride two, or more abreast, and make no effort to move to single file, let alone get over on the shoulder, biking in the traffic lane when there is space to move over. To me, that is sheer lunacy on bikers part. With all the crazy drivers, everyone (bikers and vehicles) need to keep this in mind. I absolutely do not condone road rage, but people have to use common sense, and a motorized vehicle vs: a bicycle or pedestrian, stand very little chance of coming out on the best end of a confrontation between the two. I know that everyone has a right to be on public roads, but, common sense needs to prevail, and every little thing that may help (ie: helmet) shows some smart personal responsibility.
Yes, but a car driver cannot see the road obstacles that a bicycle must deal with - ditches, potholes, gravel all keep a cyclist from getting as far over as s/he otherwise might.
Agreed.
But, not down the middle of the lane just to make a point that we have to share the road, this happens all the time where I live.
And there is no reason to ride 2 or more bikes abreast when sharing the road with vehicles that are moving 55mph (or faster) without getting over in the lane (single file) to allow the faster vehicles to pass.
And please note what I said in my other post:
Frequently, bikers will ride two, or more abreast, and make no effort to move to single file, let alone get over on the shoulder, biking in the traffic lane when there is space to move over
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It's amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you simply tell a story about a helmet saving a life...2
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denversillygoose wrote: »It's amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you simply tell a story about a helmet saving a life...
Yes, you popped the cork on a lot of pent up frustration between cyclists and drivers!
I'm a cyclist, I ride with care and have been treated well by cars. However, I've also come across cyclists who seem to intentionally make it hard/impossible for cars to pass them. Bloody anoying2 -
denversillygoose wrote: »Just a friendly reminder that helmets save lives! My father-in-law wrecked his bicycle on Sunday. He was riding alone, must have hit a pothole and ate concrete. We went over the handlebars and blacked out. He doesn't remember the accident or the few hours after. His helmet was completely cracked and he has some road rash on his face, all indicating that he landed on his head. Without that helmet, he would not be with us right now. I like him. He takes us out for fabulous sushi dinners and treats me like a daughter. I want him around.
I for one, look like a total dingus in a helmet.
But my man still thinks I'm hot.
Be safe out there!
PS- The bike is okay
Absolutely. In fact, I'm going to buy the brain bucket variety made by Bell for city cycling.0 -
5 years ago my husband went on a bicycle ride with our dog. He held the leash and the dog ran beside him. He (husband) wasn't wearing a helmet. We don't know what happened. He doesn't remember and likely never will. But after my husband fell and broke his fall with his head to the concrete our fabulous black Labrador ran out in traffic and sat in the middle of the road until someone stopped, found my husband and called 911.
He suffered a severe traumatic brain injury. 9 days in a coma, 11 days in neuro ICU, 14 days in inpatient rehab. 6 months of speech, physical and occupational therapy.
He had to relearn how to walk, talk, dress himself and feed himself.
We were lucky. He's back to work. Most people that came from where he came from don't ever make it back to work or can even live a full life.
He struggles with short term memory loss. He has to have a routine for EVERYTHING or he forgets stuff. My kids and I have to constantly remind him to put his glasses on, wear a coat. He even has to be reminded to eat. His cognitive functions slow when he doesn't eat yet he doesn't feel hunger like the rest of us. He lost his sense of smell.
WEAR YOUR BIKE HELMET! WEAR YOUR MOTORCYCLE HELMET!
We never, ever thought this would happen to us and it did. It can happen to you too.
I bought him the Road ID bracelet and he wears it when he goes out alone. He's a runner and, yes, I worry about him running alone but he needs to feel independent. The Road ID bracelet gives him that independence and now I'm comforted knowing that if, God forbid, there is another accident, he won't be John Doe again.9 -
@Sharon_C Thank you for your story, and I'm so sorry that you have to be an example. My heart goes out to both of you.2
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Hear Hear!
I was stubborn and didn't get a helmet for a long time. Weird because I never ride without a helmet on a motorcycle. First time out riding on a new clay trail in VA with a lid I ran into a broken branch which cracked the helmet - so lesson learned.
I've been hit by a vehicle 3 times (all in Florida) - two side swiped when a car veered over and one T-bone. All three times no ticket was issued to the driver and one even had the nerve to send me a bill to repair the damage to his car.0 -
Pretty sure it does. I hang out on another forum, non-fitness related, and it is very clear that many people feel quite differently about "lycra-clad" cyclists and people obviously cycling to work. The former are seen as interlopers who should *kitten* off and do their training somewhere else and stop getting in the way of people who have places to go, and the commuters are seen as fellow road-users.tiny_clanger wrote: »3rdof7sisters wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Reading this entire thread, I get the idea that wearing helmets isn't what we really need here. Instead, we need cars to stop hitting us.
It is probably a good idea to have a helmet on. A lot of unforeseen things could happen even trail riding. Flat tire, stick in the spokes, deer, or other animal jumping out. Accidents happen.
It's a two way thing. Yes, if you are in an accident, a helmet is likely to protect you. However, wearing a helmet may make you more likely to be in an accident.
Yep true.
You get treated differently when you dress "like a pro cyclist" - somehow it dehumanises you. I'm noticing less interaction recently as I've just upgraded to a helmet with visor. Less face on view so therefore I'm a cyclist not a person - upside is less children getting scared and having nightmares of course....
And also people in general when they feel safer take more risks.
A bit like when Volvo started really pushing how safe their cars were - it became folklore in the motorcyclist community to watch out for them as if you don't fear an accident you simply don't do as much to avoid one.
If you really wanted people to drive more carefully then a spike in the centre of the steering wheel would be more effective than an airbag.
On the cyclist and motorcyclist side people who have accidents wearing a helmet tend to get less head injuries but the speeds they have accidents at is often higher than those that ride without one.
I ditched the snap on visor, so visibility was restored.
It's just pure conjecture that wearing a helmet 'dehumanizes' the rider and makes them more of a target to drivers. If that even were a thing, bike shorts and the jersey would flip the switch as well.
It's also bad logic that people will take greater risks just because they wear a helmet, unless you are comparing an evening 5mph ride around their cul-de-sac vs someone having the courage to bike commute because they have a helmet. I would love to see your reference for this one.
To what extent these feelings affect actual on-road behaviour, I don't know. One man has tried to investigate it, but it wasn't hugely conclusive:Dr Ian Walker is a senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Bath, and a professional interest in traffic and transport psychology led him to conduct his own experiment into the effectiveness of cycling kit.
Over several months, one cyclist wore seven different outfits on his daily 50km commute between Berkshire and outer London. Using an ultrasonic distance sensor he recorded how much space passing motorists gave him, logging data from 5,690 vehicles. The outfits ranged from racing kit to a vest with ‘novice cyclist’ printed on the back. Some of the outfits included high-visibility jackets and vests, while another bore the legend ‘POLICE’, along with the slogans ‘move over’ and ‘camera cyclist’. Finally, for comparison, one similar high-vis jacket bore the word ‘POLITE’.
One letter made a big difference. Walker’s results found that most of the different outfits had virtually no impact on how close the motorists got, bar one. Only the mock-up police jersey encouraged motorists to give the cyclist a wider berth.
‘It’s striking that driver behaviour to POLICE was so different to POLITE given the key word differed by just
one letter,’ Walker says. ‘Not only was passing much closer on average with POLITE, but subjectively the rider reported feeling much more at risk, and encountered overt acts of aggression from several drivers.
‘Based on the data, it’s unlikely that cycling outfits could ever provide a sustainable solution to rider safety,’ Walker says. ‘The optimum solution to the very closest overtakes will not lie with cyclists themselves, and instead we should look to changes in infrastructure, education or the law to prevent drivers getting dangerously close when overtaking cyclists.’
It’s worth thinking about what actually causes accidents, Walker adds. ‘There are only three possible reasons a motorist could hit a cyclist: 1 Failure to spot the cyclist; 2 Saw the cyclist but misjudged the manoeuvre; 3 Deliberate aggression. In the best of all possible worlds, hi-viz could only ever address the first. The fact it doesn’t seem to fix things suggests that most collisions happen for reason number two.’[/quote]
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denversillygoose wrote: »It's amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you simply tell a story about a helmet saving a life...
Yes, you popped the cork on a lot of pent up frustration between cyclists and drivers!
I'm a cyclist, I ride with care and have been treated well by cars. However, I've also come across cyclists who seem to intentionally make it hard/impossible for cars to pass them. Bloody anoying
It isn't just cyclists and drivers. I'm a driver, not a cyclist... and I drive a LOT of miles (around 30K annually); but I'm also a runner. I prefer trails not only for the scenery, but also because I've encountered drivers on several occasions who felt it was acceptable to speed up and save a second or 2 rather than give me the right of way as I cross intersections. This is starting to become a real pattern of idiot drivers... I'll be running along coming up to an intersection, a driver will see me, and will speed up or continue from their stop sign as I'm crossing just because they don't want to wait an extra second to let me go past them.
And then there are the cases of cyclists in my state getting killed by drivers who are not even watching the road right in front of them (one case I already elaborated on, another where the driver was turned around attending to a child in the back seat while driving... as if that is acceptable), yet my neighbors and law enforcement / district attorneys seem to think this is just fine behavior by drivers.
Anyway, as a non-cyclist who drives a lot of miles, I must say I totally understand... drivers are idiots! And I'm not saying I'm perfect... I've made a few stupid errors myself while driving, but I'm not going around speeding up to try to beat a runner through an intersection (forcing the runner to slow down or stop to avoid getting hit) and I'm not just driving through a cyclist right in front of me on the highway. My mistakes are more tame than that... like a case in CO in 2014 where 2 pedestrians had begun across a cross walk (not in traveled portion of road yet, but off the curb and going through street side angled parking area... of course no parking in the cross walk, but on either side), and I didn't see them until it was too late to stop. Had they been 14 feet further along on their path, that would have been a problem... though it is also more likely I would have seen them since they would not have been between parked cars, but that isn't the point. There was no cop around and I didn't get "caught," but I still think about how I screwed up as a driver in that instance. Still, that doesn't compare to what I see sometimes when running when drivers definitely see me and speed up in order to try to 'race' past me to the intersection, causing me to suddenly stop to avoid being hit.2 -
Yesterday I went for a short ride (Headwinds from the north!) A vehicle was going around me, giving plenty of space, which I appreciated. But they failed to check oncoming traffic. Fortunately, the oncoming vehicle spotted it and came to a complete stop, wreck avoided.2
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3rdof7sisters wrote: »3rdof7sisters wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Perhaps you can elaborate?
My helmets don't interfere with my visibility or hearing, and they improve my visibility3rdof7sisters wrote: »Just curious tiny_clanger, how does it make you more likely to be in an accident wearing a helmet? I am not trying to be a jerk about this, I would really like to be educated about your reasoning for this. I realize that there may be a vision issue with certain types of helmets, but the design of them has greatly improved over the years so vision is better with a proper fitting helmet.
If you take a look at the article I linked to it references the work to demonstrate the association.
Riders have greater risk appetite, and cagers are less willing to give concessions to those that they see as experienced.
Personally one thing that I've found that makes a huge difference is making eye contact with drivers, something I learned when I was doing high speed driving training. Eye contact generates a personal link that improves the likelihood of being treated reasonably.
Appreciating that it's an N=1 situation, but I've noticed distinctly different driver behaviour depending on what bike I'm on. In cycling kit on a road bike I'll have a very different experience than when I'm wearing a suit on a commuting folding bike. On the folder I've also done the same ride both with and without a helmet, and seen very different approaches from drivers.
I have no issue sharing the roadways with pedestrians, bikers etc. When driving, and there is not oncoming traffic, I will move over to give more room, and I appreciate when pedestrians and bikers do the same. Courtesy is a two way street, and while I do not bike, I do walk, on roads that have a 55 mph speed limit, and I always move as far over as possible when meeting traffic. Frankly I don't notice what a biker is wearing. Frequently, bikers will ride two, or more abreast, and make no effort to move to single file, let alone get over on the shoulder, biking in the traffic lane when there is space to move over. To me, that is sheer lunacy on bikers part. With all the crazy drivers, everyone (bikers and vehicles) need to keep this in mind. I absolutely do not condone road rage, but people have to use common sense, and a motorized vehicle vs: a bicycle or pedestrian, stand very little chance of coming out on the best end of a confrontation between the two. I know that everyone has a right to be on public roads, but, common sense needs to prevail, and every little thing that may help (ie: helmet) shows some smart personal responsibility.
Yes, but a car driver cannot see the road obstacles that a bicycle must deal with - ditches, potholes, gravel all keep a cyclist from getting as far over as s/he otherwise might.
Agreed.
But, not down the middle of the lane just to make a point that we have to share the road, this happens all the time where I live.
And there is no reason to ride 2 or more bikes abreast when sharing the road with vehicles that are moving 55mph (or faster) without getting over in the lane (single file) to allow the faster vehicles to pass.
And please note what I said in my other post:
Frequently, bikers will ride two, or more abreast, and make no effort to move to single file, let alone get over on the shoulder, biking in the traffic lane when there is space to move over
Well, that's not cool.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »denversillygoose wrote: »It's amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you simply tell a story about a helmet saving a life...
Yes, you popped the cork on a lot of pent up frustration between cyclists and drivers!
I'm a cyclist, I ride with care and have been treated well by cars. However, I've also come across cyclists who seem to intentionally make it hard/impossible for cars to pass them. Bloody anoying
It isn't just cyclists and drivers. I'm a driver, not a cyclist... and I drive a LOT of miles (around 30K annually); but I'm also a runner. I prefer trails not only for the scenery, but also because I've encountered drivers on several occasions who felt it was acceptable to speed up and save a second or 2 rather than give me the right of way as I cross intersections. This is starting to become a real pattern of idiot drivers... I'll be running along coming up to an intersection, a driver will see me, and will speed up or continue from their stop sign as I'm crossing just because they don't want to wait an extra second to let me go past them.
And then there are the cases of cyclists in my state getting killed by drivers who are not even watching the road right in front of them (one case I already elaborated on, another where the driver was turned around attending to a child in the back seat while driving... as if that is acceptable), yet my neighbors and law enforcement / district attorneys seem to think this is just fine behavior by drivers.
Anyway, as a non-cyclist who drives a lot of miles, I must say I totally understand... drivers are idiots! And I'm not saying I'm perfect... I've made a few stupid errors myself while driving, but I'm not going around speeding up to try to beat a runner through an intersection (forcing the runner to slow down or stop to avoid getting hit) and I'm not just driving through a cyclist right in front of me on the highway. My mistakes are more tame than that... like a case in CO in 2014 where 2 pedestrians had begun across a cross walk (not in traveled portion of road yet, but off the curb and going through street side angled parking area... of course no parking in the cross walk, but on either side), and I didn't see them until it was too late to stop. Had they been 14 feet further along on their path, that would have been a problem... though it is also more likely I would have seen them since they would not have been between parked cars, but that isn't the point. There was no cop around and I didn't get "caught," but I still think about how I screwed up as a driver in that instance. Still, that doesn't compare to what I see sometimes when running when drivers definitely see me and speed up in order to try to 'race' past me to the intersection, causing me to suddenly stop to avoid being hit.
Since we're branching out here -
I'm a careful driver who gives pedestrians and cyclists and motorcycles a lot of room. I stop at crosswalks when there is someone waiting to cross. This often seems to confuse my fellow drivers who crawl right up my butt.1 -
I always wear my helmet. IMO its simply stupid not to take that one ounce of prevention. My SO though, has a head too large for any helmet so he rides unprotected.0
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Actually, there is a very interesting video explaining why cyclists might ride two abreast here from Chris Boardman.While it is a common gripe of motorists when they come across a bunch of cyclists taking up the road, but as Boardman explains in the video it’s quicker and safer to overtake a group riding two abreast than it is to pass a long line of single file riders.
“Think of it like this,” he says. “In your car you have the driver’s seat and the passenger seat, that makes a car suitable for two people to travel next to each other. Cyclists riding next to each other are doing the same thing, maybe chatting just like you would do in a car.”
>>> Boardman: Helmet debate being used to avoid making real decisions
He added: “Cyclists will thin out into single file when it’s safe for cars to pass if it is the most appropriate action.”
While eight riders riding side-by-side may take up 10 metres of road space, the same eight riders in single file will take up 20m, meaning it is more difficult and less safe for a driver to overtake.3 -
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1012.html
That's quite an interesting site about use of cycling helmets. Seems that, as previously mentioned in this thread, They don't have any real impact on reducing fatalities because most cycling fatalities involve multiple injuries meaning death would have occurred with or without a helmet.
I think one issue with this is that a fatal bike accident is usually going to involve a motor vehicle and the rider getting hit...I think it's kind of a no brainer that your helmet isn't going to do you a lot of good when you get mowed down by a car.
I'd wager that most bicycle accidents don't involve a vehicle...head planting on the concrete with a helmet sucks...head planting without one would suck even more. I'd wager that at minimum, helmets have spared cyclists some substantial head trauma and brain injury.
When I had my accident (no vehicle) I fully cracked my helmet and was concussed...things would have been much worse had I not had my helmet.
As far as greater risk of fatality for those wearing a helmet goes...my guess would be that it's simply a matter of the person wearing the helmet is a cycling enthusiast at minimum and rides a lot vs someone not wearing a helmet being an occasional recreational rider. Kind of like you're more likely to get into an accident if you commute to work every day vs someone who works at home and gets in the car to go grab some groceries. The person who's on the road more is obviously at greater risk...0 -
A pack of 6+ riders is a very different beast than two riders going side by side.
Two riders sided by side are doing so for their own amusement, not for safety (IMHO).HeliumIsNoble wrote: »Actually, there is a very interesting video explaining why cyclists might ride two abreast here from Chris Boardman.While it is a common gripe of motorists when they come across a bunch of cyclists taking up the road, but as Boardman explains in the video it’s quicker and safer to overtake a group riding two abreast than it is to pass a long line of single file riders.
“Think of it like this,” he says. “In your car you have the driver’s seat and the passenger seat, that makes a car suitable for two people to travel next to each other. Cyclists riding next to each other are doing the same thing, maybe chatting just like you would do in a car.”
>>> Boardman: Helmet debate being used to avoid making real decisions
He added: “Cyclists will thin out into single file when it’s safe for cars to pass if it is the most appropriate action.”
While eight riders riding side-by-side may take up 10 metres of road space, the same eight riders in single file will take up 20m, meaning it is more difficult and less safe for a driver to overtake.
1 -
@cwolfman13, you would win that bet.
Six most Frequent Sources of Injury Percent
Hit by car 29
Fell 17
Roadway/walkway not in good repair 13
Rider error/not paying attention 13
Crashed/collision 7
Dog ran out 40 -
A pack of 6+ riders is a very different beast than two riders going side by side.
Two riders sided by side are doing so for their own amusement, not for safety (IMHO).HeliumIsNoble wrote: »Actually, there is a very interesting video explaining why cyclists might ride two abreast here from Chris Boardman.While it is a common gripe of motorists when they come across a bunch of cyclists taking up the road, but as Boardman explains in the video it’s quicker and safer to overtake a group riding two abreast than it is to pass a long line of single file riders.
“Think of it like this,” he says. “In your car you have the driver’s seat and the passenger seat, that makes a car suitable for two people to travel next to each other. Cyclists riding next to each other are doing the same thing, maybe chatting just like you would do in a car.”
>>> Boardman: Helmet debate being used to avoid making real decisions
He added: “Cyclists will thin out into single file when it’s safe for cars to pass if it is the most appropriate action.”
While eight riders riding side-by-side may take up 10 metres of road space, the same eight riders in single file will take up 20m, meaning it is more difficult and less safe for a driver to overtake.
Visibility is a factor in safety, though? As is discouraging unsafe over-taking. I ride at the edge of the road as a courtesy to make myself easy to pass, but technically, in the UK anyway, you are supposed to give the cyclist you are overtaking as much room as you would give a car. That means moving into the opposite lane, just like you would a car. Hardly anyone follows that rule, but if more did, cyclists riding two abreast wouldn't be so aggravating.0 -
3rdof7sisters wrote: »3rdof7sisters wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Perhaps you can elaborate?
My helmets don't interfere with my visibility or hearing, and they improve my visibility3rdof7sisters wrote: »Just curious tiny_clanger, how does it make you more likely to be in an accident wearing a helmet? I am not trying to be a jerk about this, I would really like to be educated about your reasoning for this. I realize that there may be a vision issue with certain types of helmets, but the design of them has greatly improved over the years so vision is better with a proper fitting helmet.
If you take a look at the article I linked to it references the work to demonstrate the association.
Riders have greater risk appetite, and cagers are less willing to give concessions to those that they see as experienced.
Personally one thing that I've found that makes a huge difference is making eye contact with drivers, something I learned when I was doing high speed driving training. Eye contact generates a personal link that improves the likelihood of being treated reasonably.
Appreciating that it's an N=1 situation, but I've noticed distinctly different driver behaviour depending on what bike I'm on. In cycling kit on a road bike I'll have a very different experience than when I'm wearing a suit on a commuting folding bike. On the folder I've also done the same ride both with and without a helmet, and seen very different approaches from drivers.
I have no issue sharing the roadways with pedestrians, bikers etc. When driving, and there is not oncoming traffic, I will move over to give more room, and I appreciate when pedestrians and bikers do the same. Courtesy is a two way street, and while I do not bike, I do walk, on roads that have a 55 mph speed limit, and I always move as far over as possible when meeting traffic. Frankly I don't notice what a biker is wearing. Frequently, bikers will ride two, or more abreast, and make no effort to move to single file, let alone get over on the shoulder, biking in the traffic lane when there is space to move over. To me, that is sheer lunacy on bikers part. With all the crazy drivers, everyone (bikers and vehicles) need to keep this in mind. I absolutely do not condone road rage, but people have to use common sense, and a motorized vehicle vs: a bicycle or pedestrian, stand very little chance of coming out on the best end of a confrontation between the two. I know that everyone has a right to be on public roads, but, common sense needs to prevail, and every little thing that may help (ie: helmet) shows some smart personal responsibility.
Yes, but a car driver cannot see the road obstacles that a bicycle must deal with - ditches, potholes, gravel all keep a cyclist from getting as far over as s/he otherwise might.
Agreed.
But, not down the middle of the lane just to make a point that we have to share the road, this happens all the time where I live.
And there is no reason to ride 2 or more bikes abreast when sharing the road with vehicles that are moving 55mph (or faster) without getting over in the lane (single file) to allow the faster vehicles to pass.
And please note what I said in my other post:
Frequently, bikers will ride two, or more abreast, and make no effort to move to single file, let alone get over on the shoulder, biking in the traffic lane when there is space to move over
If you have a couple of riders, it is appropriate to go single file when you have traffic trying to pass...however, it is safer for all involved, both the riders and the motorists to be two abreast in a peloton as they are actually taking up less road space than they would going single file.0
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