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Should junk food be taxed?
Replies
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French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »how about making healthy food cheaper instead?
So more subsidies to out-subsidize the crap that is currently being subsidized and causing the problems? Seems like a legit approach. Or maybe just pull a Venezuela, force the farmers to take a massive economic hit, and send them to jail over cauliflower and pear pricing? Explain to me the economics of this idea, and please back up your suggestions with a working knowledge of the Agricultural Act of 2014.
As has been illustrated repeatedly on this thread, that the more the petty bureaucrats and diktocrats mess with things, the more the overall market becomes screwed up, and the more unintended consequences are reaped.
So what's your answer,then?
Well, my answer has been literally to roll up my sleeves and take direct action:
--I have helped lead the creation of two highly productive community gardens, both in food deserts
--I have put in many scores of hours of work in order to deliver hundreds of pounds of beautiful, organic fresh produce to our food banks
--Every year I start hundreds of vegetable seedlings and give them away in the community for free
--I am currently teaching a formal "how to start gardening" class at an inner city site, in addition to the informal training of children that show up wanting to help me garden, and developing a phalanx of volunteers to expand the impact we have in the community
--I am currently getting the ball rolling on an 8-week "cooking with fresh veg" course in the same inner city neighborhood as our garden, so recipients know what to do with all the kale and eggplants they are getting
--Developing curriculum and teaching elementary aged kids about gardening as well as ensuring they have access to reasonably priced seeds, etc.
This is in addition to a demanding full-time professional job, raising two children, serving on arts-related boards, and trying to find time to work in my own garden and fit in workouts, hikes and bike rides.
As you can tell, I really hate trying to control people with nonsensical taxation that lines politicians' pockets, and I really enjoy helping people become more healthy, wily, feral and self-sufficient while sticking it to The Man:
I'm impressed and feel very humble. Power to you!!!0 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »how about making healthy food cheaper instead?
So more subsidies to out-subsidize the crap that is currently being subsidized and causing the problems? Seems like a legit approach. Or maybe just pull a Venezuela, force the farmers to take a massive economic hit, and send them to jail over cauliflower and pear pricing? Explain to me the economics of this idea, and please back up your suggestions with a working knowledge of the Agricultural Act of 2014.
As has been illustrated repeatedly on this thread, that the more the petty bureaucrats and diktocrats mess with things, the more the overall market becomes screwed up, and the more unintended consequences are reaped.
So what's your answer,then?
the answer is that the governemnt has zero business/authority in being in the food business.
it is called personal responsibility and individual freedom, use it.
I don't believe that many people actually have individual freedom- there are too many socio-economic and political variables. But I respect your point of view and anyway that's a whole different debate0 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »how about making healthy food cheaper instead?
So more subsidies to out-subsidize the crap that is currently being subsidized and causing the problems? Seems like a legit approach. Or maybe just pull a Venezuela, force the farmers to take a massive economic hit, and send them to jail over cauliflower and pear pricing? Explain to me the economics of this idea, and please back up your suggestions with a working knowledge of the Agricultural Act of 2014.
As has been illustrated repeatedly on this thread, that the more the petty bureaucrats and diktocrats mess with things, the more the overall market becomes screwed up, and the more unintended consequences are reaped.
So what's your answer,then?
the answer is that the governemnt has zero business/authority in being in the food business.
it is called personal responsibility and individual freedom, use it.
I don't believe that many people actually have individual freedom- there are too many socio-economic and political variables. But I respect your point of view and anyway that's a whole different debate
Not to derail further, but please start a thread focusing on this. I suspect we will discover a major divide in a true root cause of not only obesity, but practically every issue.2 -
French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »how about making healthy food cheaper instead?
So more subsidies to out-subsidize the crap that is currently being subsidized and causing the problems? Seems like a legit approach. Or maybe just pull a Venezuela, force the farmers to take a massive economic hit, and send them to jail over cauliflower and pear pricing? Explain to me the economics of this idea, and please back up your suggestions with a working knowledge of the Agricultural Act of 2014.
As has been illustrated repeatedly on this thread, that the more the petty bureaucrats and diktocrats mess with things, the more the overall market becomes screwed up, and the more unintended consequences are reaped.
So what's your answer,then?
Well, my answer has been literally to roll up my sleeves and take direct action:
--I have helped lead the creation of two highly productive community gardens, both in food deserts
--I have put in many scores of hours of work in order to deliver hundreds of pounds of beautiful, organic fresh produce to our food banks
--Every year I start hundreds of vegetable seedlings and give them away in the community for free
--I am currently teaching a formal "how to start gardening" class at an inner city site, in addition to the informal training of children that show up wanting to help me garden, and developing a phalanx of volunteers to expand the impact we have in the community
--I am currently getting the ball rolling on an 8-week "cooking with fresh veg" course in the same inner city neighborhood as our garden, so recipients know what to do with all the kale and eggplants they are getting
--Developing curriculum and teaching elementary aged kids about gardening as well as ensuring they have access to reasonably priced seeds, etc.
This is in addition to a demanding full-time professional job, raising two children, serving on arts-related boards, and trying to find time to work in my own garden and fit in workouts, hikes and bike rides.
As you can tell, I really hate trying to control people with nonsensical taxation that lines politicians' pockets, and I really enjoy helping people become more healthy, wily, feral and self-sufficient while sticking it to The Man:
This ladies and gentlemen!
All it takes - one person to stand up and do something. The greatest evil that besets mankind is inaction.2 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »how about making healthy food cheaper instead?
So more subsidies to out-subsidize the crap that is currently being subsidized and causing the problems? Seems like a legit approach. Or maybe just pull a Venezuela, force the farmers to take a massive economic hit, and send them to jail over cauliflower and pear pricing? Explain to me the economics of this idea, and please back up your suggestions with a working knowledge of the Agricultural Act of 2014.
As has been illustrated repeatedly on this thread, that the more the petty bureaucrats and diktocrats mess with things, the more the overall market becomes screwed up, and the more unintended consequences are reaped.
So what's your answer,then?
Well, my answer has been literally to roll up my sleeves and take direct action:
--I have helped lead the creation of two highly productive community gardens, both in food deserts
--I have put in many scores of hours of work in order to deliver hundreds of pounds of beautiful, organic fresh produce to our food banks
--Every year I start hundreds of vegetable seedlings and give them away in the community for free
--I am currently teaching a formal "how to start gardening" class at an inner city site, in addition to the informal training of children that show up wanting to help me garden, and developing a phalanx of volunteers to expand the impact we have in the community
--I am currently getting the ball rolling on an 8-week "cooking with fresh veg" course in the same inner city neighborhood as our garden, so recipients know what to do with all the kale and eggplants they are getting
--Developing curriculum and teaching elementary aged kids about gardening as well as ensuring they have access to reasonably priced seeds, etc.
This is in addition to a demanding full-time professional job, raising two children, serving on arts-related boards, and trying to find time to work in my own garden and fit in workouts, hikes and bike rides.
As you can tell, I really hate trying to control people with nonsensical taxation that lines politicians' pockets, and I really enjoy helping people become more healthy, wily, feral and self-sufficient while sticking it to The Man:
I'm impressed and feel very humble. Power to you!!!
Well...it doesn't all happen at once, so don't be too impressed.
It progresses a little at a time and builds on previous work, and we have a lot of people in the city that are working toward the same goals and doing really wonderful things from a grass-roots perspective. And you see and hear a lot of things that will just make you heartsick, but it also has so much potential, the more that you have passionate people involved. I think it's the hands-on teaching and passion and tapping into that spirit of independence and pride that will help change lives, rather than mandates coming from above, and government working at cross-purposes (taxing AND subsidizing AND paying health care bills AND buying the food).
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comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »how about making healthy food cheaper instead?
So more subsidies to out-subsidize the crap that is currently being subsidized and causing the problems? Seems like a legit approach. Or maybe just pull a Venezuela, force the farmers to take a massive economic hit, and send them to jail over cauliflower and pear pricing? Explain to me the economics of this idea, and please back up your suggestions with a working knowledge of the Agricultural Act of 2014.
As has been illustrated repeatedly on this thread, that the more the petty bureaucrats and diktocrats mess with things, the more the overall market becomes screwed up, and the more unintended consequences are reaped.
So what's your answer,then?
the answer is that the governemnt has zero business/authority in being in the food business.
it is called personal responsibility and individual freedom, use it.
Just to play devils advocate here....
Americans keep becoming larger and more unhealthy, leading them to develop serious health problems. Then that causes them to not teach good habits to their children, Who end up getting heart conditions, diabetes, etc...
Doesn't that prove that over the past several decades Americans have not been able to take personal responsibility? Eating junk food have no consequences and was just frowned upon, that would be one thing. But ultimately eating a terrible diet does lead to serious health problems and is leaving children to develop what used to just be adult problems like diabetes and heart conditions. Isn't it in a way the governments job to help our society become healthier? I get the personal responsibility aspect, but Americans are becoming more obese every year and I feel like that proves a lot of them have no personal responsibility in a way. No there are certainly many other factors that are contributing to obesity that taxing would not help or change at all. But making it harder to gain access to maybe a little bit of a start.
Not trying to be rude at all, just curious what your take on that is?
Not rude at all, the only problem is that 'junk' food is not the reason that people are obese - eating too many calories is the reason that people are obese. You can (and I did) get just as fat eating healthy and wholesome food as existing entirely on 'junk' food.
And still, 57 pages into this discussion, nobody can actually define 'junk' food so wth would you tax?
I would say junk food is not the only problem that people are obese as I stated, but I don't think Society should deny that part of the reason people are overweight is because of junk food. I actually recently just commented on the thread where I said basically the same thing you did, that portion control is probably the biggest reason people are overweight. You can be choosing all the right foods but if you're going back for third or fourth servings you're still going to be overweight.
I have to be honest I didn't read all 57 pages of this thread so I can't speak to what's been shared or not shared and I'm not going to go back and read it. I think they would have to come up with something standardize to categorize junk food, as in looking that the amount of grams of sugar or fat in comparison to the nutritional content. I don't know if they've done this anywhere else but I believe in schools now they don't allow candy in the candy machines, food has to meet certain set guidelines to be allowed in the machines and they would probably have to do something like that. I don't know that semantics of that because when I was in high school they still allowed candy in school, so I'm just going off of what I've heard and read.
There are many many reasons that people are obese that can't be solved with a tax, which I believe I said. However there has to be a starting point and maybe a tax is something, and maybe it's not. All I know is that when I was in elementary school, middle school, and even high school there really weren't that many overweight classmates. Of course there were some, but I also grew up in one of the most healthy states in the US. And I don't think we can deny that there is an obesity problem in the United States and it's causing people to develop serious health conditions and kids are developing what used to be adult health conditions. Forget the vanity aspect, I think this is all about health and while it is none of my business what other people eat and what other people do, I think our society needs an overhaul when it comes to health because we're not doing that great.1 -
Australia kind of has a tax on "junk" food.
We have a 10% Goods & Services Tax (GST) which applies to, well... goods and services. However, some food items are exempt. In relation to food:
GST-free food
The following foods are GST-free:- bread and bread rolls without a sweet coating (such as icing) or filling – a glaze is not considered a sweet coating
- cooking ingredients, such as flour, sugar, pre-mixes and cake mixes
- fats and oils for cooking
- unflavoured milk, cream, cheese and eggs
- spices, sauces and condiments
- bottled drinking water
- fruit or vegetable juice (of at least 90% by volume of juice of fruit or vegetables)
- tea and coffee (unless ready-to-drink)
- baby food and infant formula
- all meats for human consumption (except prepared meals or savoury snacks)
- fruit, vegetables, fish and soup (fresh, frozen, dried, canned or packaged)
- spreads for bread (such as honey, jam and peanut butter)
- breakfast cereals.
The following foods are taxable:- bakery products, such as cakes, pastries, pies, sausage rolls (but not including bread and bread rolls)
- biscuits, crispbreads, crackers, cookies, pretzels, cones and wafers
- savoury snacks, confectionery, ice-cream and similar products (see Savoury snacks)
- carbonated and flavoured beverages (including flavoured milk, flavoured water and sports drinks) unless at least 90% by volume fruit or vegetable juice
- all food and beverages sold in restaurants or for consumption on the premises (see Premises)
- hot food (takeaway)
- food marketed as prepared meals and some prepared food, including platters (see Platters and similar arrangements of food)
- any food not for human consumption
- pet food or any food labelled or specified for animals.
I can tell you now, it's done squat for the obesity problem in Australia. It doesn't stop supermarkets having sales of candy bars for 2 for $1, or multipacks of ice creams for $3, it doesn't stop McDonalds advertising 20 packs of nuggets as a snack...
Even with it taxed, people would pay it anyway, and the stores would still put it on sale and absorb the costs elsewhere. Many Australians wouldn't even know that "junk" food is taxed here. If they want it, they buy it.5 -
Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
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comptonelizabeth wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »how about making healthy food cheaper instead?
So more subsidies to out-subsidize the crap that is currently being subsidized and causing the problems? Seems like a legit approach. Or maybe just pull a Venezuela, force the farmers to take a massive economic hit, and send them to jail over cauliflower and pear pricing? Explain to me the economics of this idea, and please back up your suggestions with a working knowledge of the Agricultural Act of 2014.
As has been illustrated repeatedly on this thread, that the more the petty bureaucrats and diktocrats mess with things, the more the overall market becomes screwed up, and the more unintended consequences are reaped.
So what's your answer,then?
the answer is that the governemnt has zero business/authority in being in the food business.
it is called personal responsibility and individual freedom, use it.
I don't believe that many people actually have individual freedom- there are too many socio-economic and political variables. But I respect your point of view and anyway that's a whole different debate
Not to derail further, but please start a thread focusing on this. I suspect we will discover a major divide in a true root cause of not only obesity, but practically every issue.
That's going to need a braver person than me
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French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.6 -
French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.
I think newmeadow meant that this debate is gentrified,not gardening as such.
Where I live there are a number of community garden projects in which local families are encouraged to get involved,growing their own produce etc. But we are a relatively small community. Not sure that would work in a densely populated,urban area.1 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.
I think newmeadow meant that this debate is gentrified,not gardening as such.
Where I live there are a number of community garden projects in which local families are encouraged to get involved,growing their own produce etc. But we are a relatively small community. Not sure that would work in a densely populated,urban area.
Oh, well yes the debate is definitely in top-hat-and-monocle territory! We are all very fancy as we debate!
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comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.
I think newmeadow meant that this debate is gentrified,not gardening as such.
Where I live there are a number of community garden projects in which local families are encouraged to get involved,growing their own produce etc. But we are a relatively small community. Not sure that would work in a densely populated,urban area.
To answer the question as to if it would work in a dense city, here are a few of the farms/gardens going on in Chicago.
Englewood is one of the most violent and dangerous neighborhoods on the South Side:
http://growinghomeinc.org/
There is a community garden bringing the green back to Cabrini Green:
http://modernfarmer.com/2013/06/a-garden-grows-in-cabrini-green/
And here is one from Back of the Yards:
http://www.theurbancanopy.org/
There are many, many more, including one in Grant Park (right downtown in the loop), on the roof of the huge McCormick Place convention center, and a beautiful little jewelbox of a mini-farm in Lincoln Park Zoo.3 -
French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.
I think newmeadow meant that this debate is gentrified,not gardening as such.
Where I live there are a number of community garden projects in which local families are encouraged to get involved,growing their own produce etc. But we are a relatively small community. Not sure that would work in a densely populated,urban area.
To answer the question as to if it would work in a dense city, here are a few of the farms/gardens going on in Chicago.
Englewood is one of the most violent and dangerous neighborhoods on the South Side:
http://growinghomeinc.org/
There is a community garden bringing the green back to Cabrini Green:
http://modernfarmer.com/2013/06/a-garden-grows-in-cabrini-green/
And here is one from Back of the Yards:
http://www.theurbancanopy.org/
There are many, many more, including one in Grant Park (right downtown in the loop), on the roof of the huge McCormick Place convention center, and a beautiful little jewelbox of a mini-farm in Lincoln Park Zoo.
Interesting - thank you, I'll have a look 0 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.
I think newmeadow meant that this debate is gentrified,not gardening as such.
Where I live there are a number of community garden projects in which local families are encouraged to get involved,growing their own produce etc. But we are a relatively small community. Not sure that would work in a densely populated,urban area.
It does. In Dallas, at least, which is unquestionably more spread out than cities on the order of NYC, but still considered a densely populated urban area. The community gardens we have never have empty plots. It'd be nice if we could get more going, but I don't think that'll happen since our real estate demand is soaring.0 -
I saw a report on television about community garden programs in Detroit. The city is allowing a community gardening organization to take over some of the abandoned lots and grow veggies. They have after school programs where they teach the kids about gardening and also get volunteers, and everyone who participates gets to share the spoils, as well as being encouraged to start their own garden as well. It was portrayed as being a huge and growing success, although obviously that makes it a better story so I can only hope it's accurate!
I just started growing tomatoes, peppers, lettuce and chard in containers as I moved to an apartment with a porch finally. When my grandma lived in a trailer park in rural Massachusetts before she passed, she had a beautiful veggie garden there. It's a shame some people see gardening as something only specific types of people can do. And if you can't garden (for physical reasons or because you don't have a yard or a porch), you can join a CSA or at least frequent a local farmer's market in many areas. While there might be people who don't have access to any of that, I think a lot more people could than realize it.
ETA: Also saw something about growing programs in NYC "roof gardening". They basically set up shallow dirt or hydroponic gardens on building rooftops to capitalize on the full sun and wasted space. The miracles of modern technology 2 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.
I think newmeadow meant that this debate is gentrified,not gardening as such.
Where I live there are a number of community garden projects in which local families are encouraged to get involved,growing their own produce etc. But we are a relatively small community. Not sure that would work in a densely populated,urban area.
I was going to jump in and say there are lots in Chicago, including in low income neighborhoods, but I see French Peasant did all that for me already. ;-)2 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.
I think newmeadow meant that this debate is gentrified,not gardening as such.
Where I live there are a number of community garden projects in which local families are encouraged to get involved,growing their own produce etc. But we are a relatively small community. Not sure that would work in a densely populated,urban area.
To answer the question as to if it would work in a dense city, here are a few of the farms/gardens going on in Chicago.
Englewood is one of the most violent and dangerous neighborhoods on the South Side:
http://growinghomeinc.org/
There is a community garden bringing the green back to Cabrini Green:
http://modernfarmer.com/2013/06/a-garden-grows-in-cabrini-green/
And here is one from Back of the Yards:
http://www.theurbancanopy.org/
There are many, many more, including one in Grant Park (right downtown in the loop), on the roof of the huge McCormick Place convention center, and a beautiful little jewelbox of a mini-farm in Lincoln Park Zoo.
Interesting - thank you, I'll have a look
You know what, I assumed you were in Compton, CA because of your name. Even if you are not, it is interesting to note that South Central is a hotbed of gardening activities. Here are a couple of other area links that may be of interest.
This one is sad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Central_Farm
This one is AMAZING: http://urbanhomestead.org/
This is about Ron Finley, whose quote I posted above: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/how-urban-gardening-can-save-black-communities-511
1 -
I saw a report on television about community garden programs in Detroit. The city is allowing a community gardening organization to take over some of the abandoned lots and grow veggies. They have after school programs where they teach the kids about gardening and also get volunteers, and everyone who participates gets to share the spoils, as well as being encouraged to start their own garden as well. It was portrayed as being a huge and growing success, although obviously that makes it a better story so I can only hope it's accurate!
I just started growing tomatoes, peppers, lettuce and chard in containers as I moved to an apartment with a porch finally. When my grandma lived in a trailer park in rural Massachusetts before she passed, she had a beautiful veggie garden there. It's a shame some people see gardening as something only specific types of people can do. And if you can't garden (for physical reasons or because you don't have a yard or a porch), you can join a CSA or at least frequent a local farmer's market in many areas. While there might be people who don't have access to any of that, I think a lot more people could than realize it.
ETA: Also saw something about growing programs in NYC "roof gardening". They basically set up shallow dirt or hydroponic gardens on building rooftops to capitalize on the full sun and wasted space. The miracles of modern technology
Yep, Detroit is another hotbed. Its population has just been eviscerated over the past few decades, and there are so many gorgeous old homes that fall into disrepair and eventually are burned on Devils Night. The city has bulldozed hundreds of houses each year and they can't keep up with it. Some of the farms have caused some friction because they are for-profit farmers who are not members of the community, and get the land for extremely cheap, but it's better to have a farm (and potential jobs) there than a vacant overgrown lot strewn about with syringes and defunct mattresses convenient for all your rapey rapin' needs.
Those who can't garden should make friends with a gardener; those who CAN garden should start a plot or expand their plot, and plant generously for charity. It is also important to note that gardening (digging, weeding, hoeing, wheelbarrowing, hauling water or hose, etc.) is about a 150-calorie burn for half an hour. 3 -
French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.
I think newmeadow meant that this debate is gentrified,not gardening as such.
Where I live there are a number of community garden projects in which local families are encouraged to get involved,growing their own produce etc. But we are a relatively small community. Not sure that would work in a densely populated,urban area.
To answer the question as to if it would work in a dense city, here are a few of the farms/gardens going on in Chicago.
Englewood is one of the most violent and dangerous neighborhoods on the South Side:
http://growinghomeinc.org/
There is a community garden bringing the green back to Cabrini Green:
http://modernfarmer.com/2013/06/a-garden-grows-in-cabrini-green/
And here is one from Back of the Yards:
http://www.theurbancanopy.org/
There are many, many more, including one in Grant Park (right downtown in the loop), on the roof of the huge McCormick Place convention center, and a beautiful little jewelbox of a mini-farm in Lincoln Park Zoo.
Interesting - thank you, I'll have a look
You know what, I assumed you were in Compton, CA because of your name. Even if you are not, it is interesting to note that South Central is a hotbed of gardening activities. Here are a couple of other area links that may be of interest.
This one is sad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Central_Farm
This one is AMAZING: http://urbanhomestead.org/
This is about Ron Finley, whose quote I posted above: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/how-urban-gardening-can-save-black-communities-511
Ha ha! You're not the first on here to assume that but no, Compton is my surname! I'm on the East Coast of Kent,in the UK1 -
My church, located in a neighborhood surrounded by apartments, runs a community garden. There are at least two more of them I know of in our town.3
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comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.
I think newmeadow meant that this debate is gentrified,not gardening as such.
Where I live there are a number of community garden projects in which local families are encouraged to get involved,growing their own produce etc. But we are a relatively small community. Not sure that would work in a densely populated,urban area.
To answer the question as to if it would work in a dense city, here are a few of the farms/gardens going on in Chicago.
Englewood is one of the most violent and dangerous neighborhoods on the South Side:
http://growinghomeinc.org/
There is a community garden bringing the green back to Cabrini Green:
http://modernfarmer.com/2013/06/a-garden-grows-in-cabrini-green/
And here is one from Back of the Yards:
http://www.theurbancanopy.org/
There are many, many more, including one in Grant Park (right downtown in the loop), on the roof of the huge McCormick Place convention center, and a beautiful little jewelbox of a mini-farm in Lincoln Park Zoo.
Interesting - thank you, I'll have a look
You know what, I assumed you were in Compton, CA because of your name. Even if you are not, it is interesting to note that South Central is a hotbed of gardening activities. Here are a couple of other area links that may be of interest.
This one is sad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Central_Farm
This one is AMAZING: http://urbanhomestead.org/
This is about Ron Finley, whose quote I posted above: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/how-urban-gardening-can-save-black-communities-511
Ha ha! You're not the first on here to assume that but no, Compton is my surname! I'm on the East Coast of Kent,in the UK
I love that! Well you have an alter ego now: by day, a peaceful tea-sipping Brit in the beautiful rolling green hills of Kent; by night, a West Coast bad@ss!!!
2 -
French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.
I've been thinking about this post. We grew up pretty poor too, till I was in middle school and my dad got a better job and my mom started working to help make ends meet. We were poor financially, but we had the real wealth that matters: our health, a strong work ethic, a close-knit, loving nuclear and extended family, shelves and shelves of books, debates at the dinner table (that had to be backed by research), and lots of different kinds of knowledge including gardening and cooking handed down in an unbroken chain. My mom kept a big garden and canned a lot and always insisted on feeding us ultra healthy food (wheat bran, anyone?).
And I would open my lunch box and be SO EMBARRASSED that I had nasty whole wheat bread from the discount bakery, when other kids had shining white Sunbeam bread; and I had misshapen home-grown carrots and home-made cookies while other kids had chips and desserts in colorful glossy packaging. As kids do, they would pretend-barf at the brown bread, just being stupid (and did I ever inflict any wounds by pretend-barfing at the govt cheese that came in our school lunches--I realize now the same cheese some of the kids were getting because they were on welfare? I remember insults about government cheese, but they went over my head at the time).Once I forgot to carry my lunch on a field trip day, so my teacher gave me her daughter's lunch, and I was thereby introduced to Little Debbie Cakes: absolute bliss!! I learned about Pop Tarts and Spaghettios from my neighbor, Kaboom cereal from cousins, and Ramen Noodles from my best friend (in 5th grade, she did the cooking for herself).
Now I realize how very lucky I was, both to have grown up poor, and also to have had so many intangible riches. I think so many people struggle not due to lack of financial resources, but because their culture, families, and birthright knowledge have been fragmented.5 -
French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Gardening. WTF? Like everybody has a garden. How many Rebeccas of Sunnybrook Farm can there really be? Nevermind. I better bow out of this gentrified discussion before I get my hand slapped.
LOL! Dude, I can assure you, I am a 100% gen-yoo-wine Indiana Redneck born and bred! I am cracking up because I can't decide which part is the most gentrified...the part where I shovel horse crap, get covered with it, and haul it in bins in the back of my SUV, or the part where my daydreams consist of finding a really old, crappy, rusted 1970s Chevy truck so as to haul even more crap. Some days I get extra fancy and serve up some greens fried in bacon grease and cooked with a ham hock!
Made me laugh, too. I grew up very poor. My parents grew up very poor, too. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was poor. And we all had gardens, in fact, they were considered pretty essential to making ends meet, and dramatically improved our food variety.
If you didn't have a yard, you rented a plot (you can still do this). If you had a yard, you staked out a sizeable portion. Even the least ambitious apartment-dwellers would generally keep several pots of herbs and tomatoes on their porch or balcony. Gentrified? Not hardly. These were not your pretty rose-gardens, they were hard-working plots of land where corn, peas, and squash shared space with strawberries, tomatoes, and onions; and harvest season meant hours of canning and freezing and dehydrating so that you could enjoy the bounty all winter. Generally hot, hard work, and about as far from bourgeoisie as you can get.
I think newmeadow meant that this debate is gentrified,not gardening as such.
Where I live there are a number of community garden projects in which local families are encouraged to get involved,growing their own produce etc. But we are a relatively small community. Not sure that would work in a densely populated,urban area.
To answer the question as to if it would work in a dense city, here are a few of the farms/gardens going on in Chicago.
Englewood is one of the most violent and dangerous neighborhoods on the South Side:
http://growinghomeinc.org/
There is a community garden bringing the green back to Cabrini Green:
http://modernfarmer.com/2013/06/a-garden-grows-in-cabrini-green/
And here is one from Back of the Yards:
http://www.theurbancanopy.org/
There are many, many more, including one in Grant Park (right downtown in the loop), on the roof of the huge McCormick Place convention center, and a beautiful little jewelbox of a mini-farm in Lincoln Park Zoo.
Interesting - thank you, I'll have a look
You know what, I assumed you were in Compton, CA because of your name. Even if you are not, it is interesting to note that South Central is a hotbed of gardening activities. Here are a couple of other area links that may be of interest.
This one is sad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Central_Farm
This one is AMAZING: http://urbanhomestead.org/
This is about Ron Finley, whose quote I posted above: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/how-urban-gardening-can-save-black-communities-511
Ha ha! You're not the first on here to assume that but no, Compton is my surname! I'm on the East Coast of Kent,in the UK
I love that! Well you have an alter ego now: by day, a peaceful tea-sipping Brit in the beautiful rolling green hills of Kent; by night, a West Coast bad@ss!!!
Yup,that's me
1 -
I won't attempt to define junk food for anyone else but I ate a lot chips, white bread, hormone-heavy milk, sugar-filled juices, and those fake cupcakes - with the white "stuff" in the middle, as a kid. I have no doubt that my health (and happiness) suffered as a result. I cringe just thinking about it. I'm strongly against the government controlling any of our choices (what a mess they make spending other people's money for them) but maybe banning certain harmful chemicals and preservatives might solve the problem sans tax. (I also donate to a couple of those community gardens in NY and Chicago, mentioned above, run by City Lights and similar charities. Great group!)2
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No. Never be an agreement as to what's junk. Vegans will want to tax meat.1
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@katsoslim I too think we can only define 'junk food' for ourselves. As one that likes to go with the least common denominator for me 'junk food' is anything that leads to an increase in my C-Reactive Protein (CRP) levels and that may vary from person to person. A long term high CRP level seems to be the only common root to all types of diseases like diabetes type 2, heart attack, cancer, stroke, dementia, etc.2
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Junk food is learned...I am eager to see what happens now that younger folklore not watching TV. Money is invested in advertising, it works holding our thinking about our tastes. Taxes, would train me not to spend money on my personal favourites Lay's potato chips, Skor chocolate bars and gummy bears!0
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Alluminati wrote: »I wish we could tax stupid. We'd be rich!
Well the thing is that the rich only get a 2% tax over there is usa while over here companies get a flat 30% (Australia). It all used to be half for the really rich companies. While even for the rich half seems a bit overboard that's who should be taxed more. Australia or USA the quality of roads in the ability, to give people all the textbooks they need and health care. Though America doesn't really do non out of pocket health care does it?
Cigarettes can kill you but have huge tax which hypothetically goes to support the country.
Alcohol - Bad, expensive, a social thing for non-alcoholics and is highly taxed which supports education, health care and construction
Soda - over here we're paying about 900% markup from the bought price. So that's a douche move.
All our numbers are pretaxed here so we never have to think about what we buy the same way though.1 -
This discussion has been closed.
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